Author Topic: Big Green fights back  (Read 6892 times)

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Offline jvs

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Big Green fights back
« on: July 15, 2007, 01:32:24 AM »
It appears the Remington has come out with a new model Bolt Gun w/scope that Remington says is 'ready to hunt'.  The Model 770.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_770_specs.asp

Looks like the Mossberg/Savage makers might have a little competition when it comes to low end pieces, and with a MSRP of $452, it should be competition in popular calibers at the upper $300's price level. 

The only thing is, I could not find out whether this new edition is domestic or an import.  An action "based on the 700" may not necessarily mean anything to the Remington workers.

 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline old06

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2007, 05:25:39 AM »
It looks like the 710 with lip stick on
Psalm 16

Offline Zachary

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2007, 08:53:32 AM »
Actually,  it is.

Remington discontinued the 710 and is now calling it the 770.  Remington knew/knows that their 710 was crap, so they apparently made some minor changes, and now call it the 770.  Big deal.

The only way that Remington can fight back with their 710/770 is if they use it as a clubbing stick. lol

Zachary

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2007, 09:29:02 AM »
You know, Zach, if I was you, I wouldn't buy one.  I'd get one of them uh, whata you call ems, Savages.  Most accurate out of the box!  That why you hear of them winning so many matches and see so many of them being made into custom rifles. Then you've really got somethin'. :D
By the way, Zach, have you actually had your hands on one and looked it over?

Offline *ROCK-MAN*

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 09:46:54 AM »
I have been shooting Remingtons my whole life.I only had problems with one.It was a 742 semi-auto in 30-06.This was my rifle of choice for about 5 years and it put everything I ever shot at on the ground with one shot.I purchased it used from a friend at work and he was the fourth owner.The slide finally wore out and it quit grouping well so I ditched it.As it was the only one out of a long line of both rifles and shotguns over the years Remington is still my favorite brand.Out of six guns(4 rifles & 2 shotguns) currently in my cabinet four of them are Remingtons.I replaced the 742 with a model 700 BDL in same 30-06 and never looked back.We know they have some inferior models on the market and we also know why.To compete with the other cheap inferior models other companys are marketing.Dollar for dollar I'll take the Remington every time.
JMHO
Rock
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Offline Zachary

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2007, 11:51:43 AM »
You know, Zach, if I was you, I wouldn't buy one.  I'd get one of them uh, whata you call ems, Savages.  Most accurate out of the box!  That why you hear of them winning so many matches and see so many of them being made into custom rifles. Then you've really got somethin'. :D
By the way, Zach, have you actually had your hands on one and looked it over?

Which one?  The 710, 770, or Stevens?

As for the 710, yes.  I actually shot a 710.  Accuracy was "decent" for such an inexpensive gun - about 1.5" at 100. (I think it was a .270 Winchester shooting plain jane factory 130 gain ammo).  However, that gun just felt like plastic junik!

As for the 770, no.  But given that it is essentially a 710, and given that the 710 is a plastic junk, even if the 770 is 50% better (which I doubt), then it is still going to be junk.

As for the Stevens, yes.  I actually shot one as well.  Accuracy in that particular gun was good - about 1.0 to 1.25" at 100.  Stevens is essentially a plain jane Savage (which doesn't say much to begin with).  I think that the quality and fit and finish of the Steven is sub-par, but I honestly believe that it is better than the 710.  I agree - I would get a Stevens before I get a 710.

Zachary

Offline wncchester

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 02:12:58 PM »
I sometimes think we may project our personal tastes and impressions too far.  I do love steel and walnut and dislike aluminum alloy parts and plastic-type stocks.  But, actually, guns mean different things to different users so I limit my opinions to what works, not what turns me on.  Condemning what I don't like shows contempt for not only the weapons but those who buy them and that's not fair.

To me quality guns are works of art (that is, if they are done as I like them) but to some of my friends, especially the younger ones, they are just tools that need no more finesse than a cheap hammer.  Meaning, to them, if it does the job it's a good tool/gun and I have to admit, they are correct.  Well, unless the guns don't function or blow up with normal charges but none I know of do that. 

I know that just because I DON'T LIKE THEM doesn't mean the less expensive guns are "junk" and the fact that they often succeed in the market while "better" ones fail confirms my impressions.  I sure miss the old but high quality factory made Colt-Sauer, Sako Forrester and Browning/FN Safari grade rifles though.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 02:29:45 PM »
I am not a name brand junkie & can't really relate to those that are too well. I like some of the upper end Rems like the Sendero, CDL,
Classic, upper end Varmit versions, etc, but I am not married to them. I like built up Savages too & they shoot great, as do my Rems.
But other guns in the price range of the upper end Rems shoot well also. The Savage is a good way to get good accuracy at a lower price point, no doubt about it. Te Savages are winning some matches, but not near as many as Rem, maybe more some day, but who cares?
I do think that Rem missed the mark big time with the 710 & this new version as well in competing with a Savage. At that price bracket I would go with the Savage. But if I had a john boat hid at a Bayou I could just leave one in the boat & it could double as a paddle.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2007, 02:35:03 PM »
I have a friend who bought a Savage with a walnut stock and accutrigger because he went into a Gander Mountain store who was using the 710 as a lost leader. Lost is right the clip rattles the bolt was stiff and yea it was a piece of crap you cannot say any different. To be fair the cheap Savages are no better (Stevens) on the other Hand the higher end Remingtons and Savages both are nice rifles. Remington lately has not made that great of choices. Look at their rimfires nothing but crap (Their last two forays into semi auto's) and their Express shotguns are not really a Wingmaster either though they do get the job done.  Remington lost a lot of fans when they basically said to the public we will not repair or fix any of the Woodsman Semi auto's anymore so buy a new 7400 instead. For those that had the 740's and the recievers cracked they then had boat anchors and Remington turned a blind eye to them. I had a hard time even trading in a 740 as the gun shop really did not even want it. I cannot say as I blamed them and I really took a loss on it for what I should have gotten out of it but the gun shops and most folks now know the receiver can crack and if it does too bad no parts to be had at least not from Big Green which is enough to make even a fan kinda green.  >:(
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 03:06:17 PM »
In truth, I don't think your box a year shooter does much more than do an occasional lurk in this room and those like it.  And, as much as we regulars in here hate to admit it, you don't have to have $2000+ tied up in a rifle and scope to go out and kill a deer. 
From the looks of the picture, the rifle looked one step above a club.  But to some guy that is going without lunches to buy himself a deer rifle or a kid that's mowing lawns to try to move up from his 7.6598 Ethiopian mauser with the barrel hacksawed off to 24", it may look like a dream. :D

Offline 30-30man

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2007, 03:15:48 PM »
Remington at its best.  Peddle in rebadged junk, just give it a new name.  I'd pass, Remington has a terrible track record in inexpensive guns. They've gotten more of my money than I'd wish to admit.  Never again, or until I see the quality control improve and it hasn't.  I bet the ones who do buy the things will get the same help I got with my Viper and 597.  No help at all.    A person would be better suited with a Mossberg, Stevens etc. At least they will stand behind them.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2007, 05:17:53 PM »
It looks like the 710 with lip stick on

I see the 710 is no longer listed on their web site, and I assume it is no longer being offered.

It won't be missed in this corner.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2007, 06:34:06 PM »


I don't understand where some folks are coming from with this talk of Remington having lousy C/S...They are light years ahead of where they were 5 years ago...I have never had any issues with them...or their rifles...The ladies working in their C/S department has always bent over backwards for me on any problem I have had...even when they didn't have to...I haven't had the displeasure of owning a 710..or one of the latest...but..it's not supposed to have  BDL aesthetics either...nor is the 870 Express supposed to have a Wing Master quality either...I just bought my youngest son a new Model 7 youth in 223...the fit and finish on it is perfect...it is well centered in the stock..and the trigger while a little heavy...has no creep in it at all...It's an excellent rifle for the money...I don't have any problem recommending any of their rifles...but...their ammo...well that a entirely different story...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline gunnut69

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2007, 07:14:04 PM »
Sorry guys but I'm not a fan of remington.. The 710 was a throw away gun. It is no longer made for a reason. They become unsafe over time and use. The plastic bolt guide and the plastic trigger/action assembly are a joke. The 770 I haven't seen but it is likely the same or similar junk.. A 700 is a fine rifle but that doesn't mean the 710 can't be junk!! The Wingmaster is a fine shotgun but the Express version sucks.. he local shop won't order them anymore as too many had to go back to Remington. The ones I've had in to work on were assemblrf using parts that were 'vibra honed'. Vibrated in a tank of abrasive until they fitted. Of course some dimensions were so far off that one could consider them 'pre-worn out'. They finish is of curse just sand blasted and oxide coated. The savage rifles I've seen were very cheaply made but they functioned. They may not have been highly finished but they functioned and the barrel attachment system and generally good barrels allowed them to shoot quite well indeed.  Remington is existing on it's reputation and that will fade.. The 740-742 debacle is sad indeed. I've 3 in the shop now that are basically junk. The bolts wear prematurely and the locking heads over rotate. The good point is they usually lock up before blowing up. Although one local man had one explode with factory ammo. Remington refused to return the rifle and instead sent a certificate for a new auto. He went and got the new rifle but sold it, new unfired..
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Offline 30-30man

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 03:41:51 AM »
The sad truth to Remington's customer service is it depends on service centers.  Most service centers don't want to fix problems from a flawed rifle they didn't sell to start with.  Remington has started a trend in peddling in cheap throw away guns just to stay afloat.  This has never worked.  The word on their quality control is spreading.  Since the internet, word spreads much faster.  Eventually they will earn a bad reputation and everyone will quit buying even their more expensive guns. Remington is running on limited time unless they get new leadership and turn things around.   I got no help to fix the problems with my 742(inherited)stove pipes/hangups, Viper(clip fell out), 870express(b(factory flawed barrel), and the last Remington I'll ever buy (597)hangs up/stove pipes.  None of these guns were fixed even after sending them to different service centers.  You couldn't give me a cheap Remington.

Offline SuperstitionCoues

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 04:37:45 AM »
Forgive me for asking the obvious, and not to put too fine of a point on it, but what exactly is Remington fighting back at?

Market competition?  Poor internal quality?  Overpricing their product so that it is no longer affordable? 

Where is the fight at?  What is the fight about?
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Offline jvs

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 09:51:25 AM »
  Forgive me for asking the obvious, and not to put too fine of a point on it, but what exactly is Remington fighting back at?

Market competition?  Poor internal quality?  Overpricing their product so that it is no longer affordable? 

Where is the fight at?  What is the fight about? 


I think the competition would be :

Who can make the cheapest piece of crap and have it sell.

Since Mossberg and Savage/Stevens (all the same company by the way), can put stuff like that together and sell it a low prices, I don't see why Remington should be left out.  Do you??  I look at it as Remington lowering itself to the competitions' level.  Sort of like the stinkiest NFL teams playing last years Super Bowl winner, and winning.

Remington didn't start this mess about selling stuff that won't last more than 15 or 20 years.  The above makers did.   

Obviously, if those less expensive rifles didn't sell, Mossberg/Savage/Stevens wouldn't make them either.

While I fully realize that to start out now and want to go shooting and hunting, the $1000 price tag on a half decent set up would be enough to make anyone change their mind.  And if these rifles is all anyone can truely afford, then Remington could be considered with this latest 770 edition, as a starter.  Just like Mossberg,Savage,Stevens.

The same people who bash Remington for trying this move are probably the same people who bash Remington for never trying anything new to stay in the game.

I wouldn't think you'd get much of a rifle in the 770's price tag, but I don't think it is less of a rifle than the Mossbergs/Savage/Stevens rifles either.    This isn't for anyone who has good taste in rifles, but rather for people who need a only rifle once a year for hunting.  I have a firend like this.  He bought a Savage 110 about 15 years ago...   He just opened up his second box of ammo last fall.  (that's 20 rounds in about 15 years).   

He doesn't need a Sendero, or a Sako.
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline 30-30man

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 11:04:41 AM »
No, you can make a good rifle for little money.  Savage/Stevens, Mossberg and even Marlin(leveraction) makes a good cheap rifle that can keep up with any $1000 rifle.  Remington could do the same but instead they build it with profit before function.  All the guns Savage,Mossberg, Marlin put out will last a lifetime and will still be serviceable for years to come. Remington has the cheap down real good, it the the function and service that needs some work.  Their cheap guns are disposable, I'd take a Stevens/Mossberg over that new bolt any day.  At least I'll know I could get parts for them.  With Remington, you can bet that they will leave you in the dust and offer no help as your rifle becomes obsolete after 5 years.  The only way I'll ever buy another Remington is if they fix all the 740,742,Vipers, and even the 597s that they have made.  When I spend my money, it is a lifetime buy.  With Remington, you can't even count on the two measly years they give you in a warranty.  If you call it that, it's more like the "pass the turd shuffle" as you send it to repair center to repair center with no results.  No Thanks.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 11:18:04 AM »
Why did GMC make a chevy, a pontiac, a oldsmobile, a buick, and a cadillac?  Maybe Remington looks at this as a "first" rifle.  As posted, if it last a lifetime, fine but if the guy wants to move up in quality later on, he's already thinking Remington.  It's sound marketing. 
And for you folks that wouldn't buy a Remington on a dare, good.  Somebody's got to buy those "most accurate out of the box" Savages.  :D

Offline bcp

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Bring back the old economy models
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 12:35:52 PM »
Remington should re-issue the 788 or Sportsman 78.

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2007, 12:55:29 PM »
Maybe Remington looks at this as a "first" rifle.  As posted, if it last a lifetime, fine but if the guy wants to move up in quality later on, he's already thinking Remington.  It's sound marketing. 

i greatlly disagree.   i am an unrepentant Remington fan.   but the Model 710 is a poke in the eye to those who have been Remington buyers/fans over the years.    how could Rem' foist a piece of crap like that on the shooting fraternity?  with their history, and with their rifles still being the most accurate out of the box they did not need a cheapskate '710'.     what they needed was a somewhat better model 700 ADL Syn' for entry-level buyers.    they seemingly have tried this with the SPS, but i'm not sure i like them any more than the ADL's in Syn' stock.   the rest of the Model 700 lineup has something, somewhere, for most rifle fans i'd would think.   i see some with beautiful wooden stocks at the shows; and i see some with very functional synthetic stocks and  stainless metalwork as well.    BUT, the model 710 was crap, plain and simple.    perhaps it is best said when one remembers this old expression while thinking of the model 710/770 'experiment' :   you can't polish a turd!   

i guess that's just my opinion, however.

take care,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline jvs

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2007, 01:10:03 PM »
No, you can make a good rifle for little money.  Savage/Stevens, Mossberg and even Marlin(leveraction) makes a good cheap rifle that can keep up with any $1000 rifle.  Remington could do the same but instead they build it with profit before function. 

First of all I didnt say a $1,000 rifle,  what I said was for a half decent set-up, a thousand dollars is not a big amount any more.  That would include a higher quality rifle, a better scope, a sling and ammo.   Buy a 770 and you just need a sling and ammo.

As for your statement about 'profit'...   I am hoping you don't think Mossberg/Savage/Stevens are in business for bragging rights?

And as for 'function'...  I would guess, even though I have not seen or held a 770, that a 770 would be quite capable of getting the job done.  Just because the 770 isnt what I look for in a rifle, doesn't mean that someone who is only looking at the lower end of the market shouldn't take a look at the Remington 770.

I will agree that Marlin makes a good Lever Action, I have a few of them.  But just as I own and sometimes use a Lever Gun, I like Bolts better.   For me a Lever is a functional rifle, not a thing of beauty.  You may disagree, which is where personal tastes come in to the picture.  

Mossberg makes a decent Shotgun.  They should stick to that IMO.

Stevens is and always was Second String Equipment.   And even the 770 is a step up from that, just because it is a Remington.

Last year I bought 2 Remington 673's and 2 different Remington .30-06 Anniversary Limited Edition rifles (one of them is 1 of 100).  Do the Math.  

Would I buy a 770?     NO !    But if I wanted a cheap bolt action rifle, I certainly would look at a 770 before I ran out and bought a Stevens or a Mossberg (even though they are basically both the same).

Now if I could only find out if the 770 is foreign or domestic.
 If you want to run with the Wolves, you can't Pee with the Puppies.

Offline 30-30man

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2007, 01:43:35 PM »
You seem to favor Remington and that is great. I would love to want a Remington, after all they are made in the USA but as of late they are outsourcing.   The truth is ... I  and many others have been burnt by Remington's shortcomings in the entry level market. My question to anyone would be why take the gamble giving Remington's track record? I think the Stevens would even be cheaper than the Remington...Why should I or anyone take a risk with Remington after all the turds they have produced? Savage/Stevens and even the new Mosberg have a proven record.  Remington, well has a record of leaving the customer with a broken gun that can't be fixed. What are they doing to win their customers back. Nothing but repackaging..You can change the paint, give it a new stock, advertise it, sing its praises, but in the end it will still be a Remington 710.  I just can't get excited, Sorry.

Offline Mattkc

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2007, 03:34:04 PM »
Boy for a guy looking at buying a 700 CDL I'm getting nervous.  If you guys are the Remington fans I'd sure hate to meet up with Remington haters.  I haven't had a cf bolt rifle since the 70's due to being a lefty.  I don't need a bolt gun I just want a nice blued bolt gun with a decent piece of wood in 243.   I'm going to use the it for a walking coyote/ground hog gun and I should probably get a Tikka pound lighter and guaranteed moa. But it only comes with a plastic stock in the lefty version.  I also looked at Kimber but they only have WSM's available for lefties.   

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2007, 05:24:41 PM »
Worry not Matt, the folks crying, pissing and moaning are not Remington fans. I keep buying them and they keep right on pleasing me each time. On the very few rare occasions a problem has cropped up they take care of it with one phone call and have each such time that has come up even to include when the gun I bought was used. They still fixed it at no cost to me other than return shipping to them. No other time than when it was a used gun have I spent one red cent to have a problem repaired and I've owned well over 200 Remington guns.

Still the 710 was a mistake on their part I believe. They wanted to gain some of that lower end market share and made a mistake in their attempt to gain it. Had they brought back the 788 with a new name it would have been not much if any more expensive and a solid accurate rifle to boot.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Heavy C

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2007, 04:54:33 AM »
The 710 was a mistake - no question.  When I wanted a solid bolt action I went for the 700.  Money was tight so I got the ADL with a synthetic stock.  It has been a fantastic rifle and has never let me down.  My only gripe is the inability to open the bottom of the magazine to unload it, but I just saw a kit to install one so I guess I'm done griping.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2007, 05:44:10 AM »
Matt, if you stick around these rooms long enough, you notice that the Rem bashers are the same mean-minded little group. If you were to go in a ford automobile room you'd have the same sort of peanut gallery bad-mouthin' ford, and so forth.  I havn't owned one but the 710 apparently was a real dog.  And was pulled off the market in a hurry.  The rem bashers like to make ambiguous remarks like "the QC has gone to hell".  I can show you one I bought last year and one I bought 40 years ago and one is turned out as well as the other.   

Offline 30-30man

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2007, 05:03:18 PM »
I wouldn't call it bashing, Ok its bashing...Whining, Moaning, Yeah that too, and I'll admit, I'm no fan.    I just shared my experiences with Remington in hopes of sparing someone the same fate as I had.  I know there are many who like Remington and have good luck with them.  It's all a personal opinion that was developed by my experiences. I guess what did it for me was a rude person on the other end of the phone while trying to get one of my Remingtons fixed that the repair center didn't.

 Greybeard, you hate Taurus handguns because of your experiences and their customer service.  My experience with the m66 in 357 has been great.  So, it's what you've experienced I guess. Well I've had the same problem and bad customer service with Remington.  Maybe it was the exception, I dunno. ( By the way, GREAT BOARD)

 Anyway, if you decide on a Remington, that alone is your choice and I hope it lasts you many years of successful hunting.  Just make sure where ever you buy it, they do service too or you may end up like I did.  We all bash things we've had bad luck with.  I'm no exception.  My opinions are my own, not fact at times, often unwanted, and sometimes can be ignored....Good Luck to ya,

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2007, 05:34:38 PM »
By no means have I had a LOT of experience with Remington's customer service department but in those times every single time I was treated very courteously and my concern was handled at no expense to me other than the one time I had to ship back a defective stock on a rifle I bought used not new. I think "most of the time" NOTE: I did NOT say ALL the time. you get from CS what you give.

For sure that's NOT the case with Taurus. It's really NOT the fault tho of the customer service manager at Taurus or at least wasn't when I was dealing with them. He was a true gentleman and did what he could to resolve my issues. BUT the head honcho listens more to the head of the repair department than the head of CS. I feel the repair department should work for CS at least in matters related to defective new items but Taurus doesn't believe that.

Reading about Taurus guns on most any site these days will let you know most folks agree with my accessment.

Remington on the other hand isn't as widely put down and it seems "for the most part" to be the same small group doing it. I don't doubt folks have had problems with Remington guns, so have I with a few a very few. But a polite call has every time seen them bending over backward to help me resolve the issues. I can't help but believe it would for the rest of you IF the call from your end is a polite one asking for help not demanding it.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline k3yston3

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Re: Big Green fights back
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2007, 06:24:55 PM »
Personally, I think all of these "starter" guns are a great idea...For two reasons: 1. They offer someone on a limited budget an entry level firearm to get involved in shooting and hunting, and 2. They also keep the good old used guns on the pawn shop racks for people like me to pick up. LOL.  I personally am not a Remington fan and the only new "Remington" I would consider purchasing would be a SS model 798, but then again I am a sucker for Paul Mauser designs.  Now, I am not a Remington basher, as I have a few in the household....My wife brought a 700 with her and I own a 541-t, a 870, and an m1917 Enfield built by Remington.