Big Green fights back

[Mac11700]

I agree with you Bill...you do get what you give with any C/S department...I like Remington as a company...and the ladies I have dealt with have always..and I do me always bent over back wards for me...on any issue I have ever had...and they have been few & far in between to honest...I have owned about 20 different long guns of theirs...and about 15 of their pistols...My last incident took place a few years ago...I bought a sporting clays 1100 and the stock didn't work good for me...I had it about for 1 week and called them and explained it was too high for me..and wasn't printing correctly...They sent me an exceptional set back with outstanding burling in it...which was a much higher grade wood I originally had on it...I didn't take any pictures before I sent it in...but this is what they sent back..





I have found if your polite and courteous with them when things aren't right..they will help...Get mad and cuss & fume...well...you might as well be talking to the wall...If you are nice and not rude...and someone is being rude to you...bet their name & ID number then ask to speak to the manager politely...and explain to him there was no reason for that employee to be nasty...feel free to give them the name of the tech that was rude...Be polite...don't curse..and you will do a-lot better...You just gotta know how to butter your bread...or fertilize the field if you know what I mean...

Mac

[Wayne123]

Recently I was searching for new hunting rifles for my 2 sons (ages 11&12).  I wanted to stay below $500 for the rifle alone.  I looked at the Rem 700 SPS, Tikka, Savage, and yes the Rem 710. The 710 was clearly not in the same category as the others.  The bolt was extremely tight and the stock was horrendous.  The Tikka has a one size fits all action which was unacceptable for the 7-08 I was buying.  The Savage, which I have heard great things about, was just plain ugly to my eyes.  I chose the 700 SPS and outfitted one with a vari XII and the other with a monarch.  They both shoot between 1-1.25".  These two rifles have solidly put me in Remington's corner.  I had never owned a Remington centerfire other than shotguns but will definitely consider them in the future.  I am quite sure the 710 or the 770 would be acceptable for a guy that shoots a box of ammo every 5 years and makes a couple hunts per year.  For the rest of us though, the 710 and 770 do nothing but sour an otherwise good reputation.  In my opinion, if Remington can't produce a decent rifle package for under $400 then they should let Savage and Mossberg have that market.

[30-30man]

Every time I've called Remington in person, I was directed to a repair center.  The reception I got was what I returned, nothing but being respectful and polite.  Never did Remington offer to take it themselves.  As many repair centers are also dealers, they don't want to fix a rifle they didn't sell anyway.  I was always told , it is not covered but we will fix it for a fee.This was on all six of my Remingtons, I've had trouble with and most of them are the somewhat entry level models.(742/Forget it too old)Viper(mag kept falling out),870(Choke Threads),597(hung up/stovepiped),1100(hung up),7400(would not chamber the next round)  I still own an 870 express with the chokes threads cut half-way down the barrel if you have a contact # any of you are willing to share.  I've tried my share to love Remington but I have always been on the short end of the stick when it comes to being satisfied with them.  I've since traded all of them but still kept the 870.  I don't know when I'll buy another barrel for it......

[Mac11700]

Every time I've called Remington in person, I was directed to a repair center.  The reception I got was what I returned, nothing but being respectful and polite.  Never did Remington offer to take it themselves.  As many repair centers are also dealers, they don't want to fix a rifle they didn't sell anyway.  I was always told , it is not covered but we will fix it for a fee.This was on all six of my Remingtons, I've had trouble with and most of them are the somewhat entry level models.(742/Forget it too old)Viper(mag kept falling out),870(Choke Threads),597(hung up/stovepiped),1100(hung up),7400(would not chamber the next round)  I still own an 870 express with the chokes threads cut half-way down the barrel if you have a contact # any of you are willing to share. I've tried my share to love Remington but I have always been on the short end of the stick when it comes to being satisfied with them.  I've since traded all of them but still kept the 870.  I don't know when I'll buy another barrel for it......

Sure...call the corporate office at 1-800-243-9700...extension # 8770...Talk with Dave...if you reach his voice mail leave your name and phone number so he can call you back,,You will need the serial # of the gun to give him..and any correspondence and info you have on which repair center mis-handled when you sent it to them...

Wayne123...I just set my youngest son up with a Model 7 Youth in 223 with a VX-II Tactical 3x9...we will be shooting it this weekend hopefully...It's a neat little rifle with super fit & finish on it...I hope it shoots as good as it looks...

Mac

[jvs]

30-30man,

You probably have the worst luck I ever heard of when it comes to a Remington, except for one other person.

I know a guy who bought a new Remington about 25 years ago.  Ever year for the next 23 years he went deer hunting and never scored on a deer.  Finally disgusted, he sold the Remington to one of his friends and bought another make rifle.

The first year he was out deer hunting with his new rifle, he got a nice buck.   The guy whom he sold the Remington to has not even seen a deer since he bought the Remington.  Obviously, that Remington is Jynxed or has a Curse upon it.

Soooooo.... you might be right.

The 770 may be reworked.  I have not seen one just yet.  Hopefully,  Remington didn't just rename the 710 and bring along the 710's bad reputation.   I am certainly not a fan of 'pressed' barrels, which is why I basically stay away from inexpensive guns.

I am not saying the 770 is for everybody, but it has the same market the Mossberg and Stevens bolt has.  The actual selling price will make it competitive.

[30-30man]

Yeah, I don't think all Remingtons are bad, it is just I've had my bad share.

[Rogue Ram]

My experience comes from 30 years of owning Remington and being a law enforcement armorer for over 15. My experience with their customer service is HORRIBLE. Other rotten customer service experiences have been with Winchester, followed by a laughable experience by Colt, and outright fraud on the part of DPMS.

With Remington, its run from the original cheap POS HS Precision varmint synthetic stocks cracking to mis-aligned scope mount holes to guns being put back together 4 times in a row when returned for service with us eating return shipping. Newer 870s breaking, 700s losing those cheesy extractors. I've rebuilt one 700 varmint and kept it, kept my Mountain Rifle after Oregunsmithing accurized it, but all other centerfires I dumped.  Me personally and my agency, we only have OLDER 870s. Mine is late 60s, the agency guns are newer than than but none made in the last decade.

Glock, SIG, S&W, Ruger (especially Ruger) have treated me/us really well.  The old Browning did too, back in the day.

Times change.

RR

[jvs]

There is no doubt in my mind that, in some cases, Remington has had a Quality Control problem over the last 25 years.  Some of their problems are also in Design.  I bought a brand new 673 last year, and the vented rib ran down the top of the barrel off center.  How can that happen?  How can a rifle like that make it to the Shipping Dept.?  Someone didn't care and OK'd it.  A little checking around and I found out that there was a run of 673's with the exact same problem.  A problem, that when brought to Remington's attention, was considered... and I quote... "within industry standards".
 
When you consider that, in the end, the Customer Service Dept. has to contend with all of those short comings, there is no wonder that things can get testy.  In some cases, Customer Service may be overwhelmed.

With new ownership, maybe Remington will turn things around.   If every Rifle had the same ISO standards as something that leaves the Custom Shop, things would be different.  But I think if that would be the case, Remington would finally see that, in most cases, their rifles don't even meet minimum standards and the cost involved may be prohibitive.    So the problems have to be addressed from the bottom up.

Without a better Quality Control system, Remington may not have a chance to survive.  Surely, the people on the production floor have no voice as to what moves to the next dept, which is a management fault. 

So far Remington seems to be taking a chance that some dumb schmuck won't even bother to make things right after the gun is sold. 

Hopefully, all this will change with the new ownership.

[gunnut69]

 beemanbeme ==(mean-minded little group)-- I certainly don't consider myself any of those adjectives but find a lot wrong with new model Remingtons.. I've Worked on too many to not see a problem.. The older rifles that come in either are worn out, damaged or improperly altered. The newer rifles have defects of carelessness. One had the crown not  cut. Not improperly cut just not cut. They blued it but it was just cut off flat. that rifle also had 2 sear springs, but one was where the ejector spring was supposed to be!! Saw one with a ring in the chamber. It was a 308 that required the action be hammered open with the heel of the hand for each shot. There are more stories. Stories of actions where only a single lug was touching it's abutment accuracy that was a joke(bullet were impacting in profile), etc. Of course there are exceptions. A close friends son-in-law gave him a 30-06 CDL for CHRISTmas. It was a tack driver. The design of the Remington action is great but of late the execution has slipped. On the other had the Savages I see are usually owner induced problems.. Usually on the older models it was a trigger 'adjustment'?? Most I could fix. One came from another local 'smith'. That one I pointed out the danger and told him to return it to the guy and make him fix it.

[jcn59]

I'm sure no expert on these things, but when a service department craps on you, step two is NOT complain to your buddies, it's to contact the Attorney General of the state in which the company is doing business.  Step three is complain to your buddies and whoever else will listen.

[jvs]

I'm sure no expert on these things, but when a service department craps on you, step two is NOT complain to your buddies, it's to contact the Attorney General of the state in which the company is doing business.  Step three is complain to your buddies and whoever else will listen.

My 673 Vent Rib problem was handled by a Remington Service Center and a Certified Remington Gunsmith, who was my advocate when I had to have my 673 sent back.  He is the one who cut through any red tape and would NOT take 'within industry standards' for an answer and got the Vent Rib problem on my 673 worked on.  So the system isn't completely rotten.

Secondly, everybody wants a tack driver out of the box.  When that doesn't happen, Remington gets bad reports either because it isn't industry standards (which it really isn't...a 2 to 3 inch group out of the box IS), or when the customer considers himself a Master Gunsmith and begins to tinker with stuff he has no right or knowledge.  Then he/she wants Remington to pick of the tab for his/her misguided thinking.  I have been around long enough to know that people mess with stuff they shouldn't.  Then they expect the Manufacturer to pick up the tab for their On the Job Training.   Ownership gives no one the right to alter a product, or have a product altered, whether the individual knows what they are doing or not.   

In both of the above situations the State Attorney General would have almost no jurisdiction.   

When you complain about Remington, take a minute and write to Remington and ask them how many times they ran into the self-appointed gunsmiths doing work on a rifle and then wanting Remington to fix the problem.

I know of no one who had a legitimate gripe who didn't eventually get a fair shake from Remington.  Even though I really do believe that Remington needs to overhaul their Quality Control before their whole reputation goes down the toilet.

There is still a certain amount of Quality and Workmanship involved when you buy a Remington.  So unless you want every make of rifle built like Savage does....   Keep complaining and sooner or later they all will be exactly like a Savage.

YES......it would be a Bad Thing.

[jcn59]

I don't have the right to alter a product I own??  Where I live it does.  Where do you live?

[jvs]

If you think you can nuts around the inner workings of a rifle or any product, and expect Remington or any other manufacturer to stand behind the product after your foolishness, you are sadly mistaking.  (by YOU, I dont necessarily mean YOU). 

It is questionable as to whether a rifle holds it's warranty if you take it to a qualified master gunsmith and have the trigger worked on.

As long as you keep it in your head that you are solely liable for doing so, you go right ahead.

Guns is one area that has alot of so called 'outhouse gunsmiths' who like to tinker, then put their mistakes on the used rack, for the next dumb sucker and customer service specialist to contend with.

You just don't wake up one day and decide... "I think I want to be a gunsmith". 

When you alter the design, you void any warranty and expectation of manufacturer liability. 

[30-30man]

Well, I have an update.  I called the service dept. one last time to get my youth 870 with the choke threads cut half way down the barrel fixed.  I got the same answer, please send it to an authorized repair center.  The serial # is more than two years-old , so I guess I swallow another one of Remington's turds. 

[Coyote Hunter]

Matt, if you stick around these rooms long enough, you notice that the Rem bashers are the same mean-minded little group.

If speaking the truth makes me a member of a “mean-minded little group” so be it – I’ll be a proud member, too.

I haven’t shot a 710 but I have handled them and I have read about how the barrel was press fit into the receiver.  My impression from handling the 710 was that it was cheap junk and the press-fit barrel was not an assembly method I’d want used on any rifle I own. 

On the other hand, the Savage 110E Dad gave me was no thing of beauty, either.  The Savage had a “walnut stained” stock, exterior metal finish was rough and the trigger guard was plastic - but it’s construction methods were sound and it shot great.  And it could be easily rebarrelled when the time came.  It looked very much like a Stevens with a faux-walnut stock.

Given a choice of a 710 or a Savage or Stevens, my money would go for the Savage or Stevens every time.

[Coyote Hunter]

...
Ownership gives no one the right to alter a product, or have a product altered, whether the individual knows what they are doing or not.
   
There is still a certain amount of Quality and Workmanship involved when you buy a Remington.  So unless you want every make of rifle built like Savage does....   Keep complaining and sooner or later they all will be exactly like a Savage.

YES......it would be a Bad Thing.

Two things –

1. Ownership does in fact give you the right to alter a product.  It may void the warranty, however.

2. See my post above regarding Savage and the POS called a 710.

[jvs]

I don't have a use for a pressed fit barrel either, and I said so earlier.  I don't care who makes it.

My whole purpose of this thread was to put people on notice that if they are looking for an inexpensive gun, Remington makes one too. 

So if that is what flips your switch, it is there.

By the way, the 710 is no more a POS than some Savages, almost all Stevens Bolt Actions and Mossbergs Bolt Actions are.  Remington doesn't hold the POS Patent when it comes to press fitted barrels.

And yes, you are exactly right, you may alter anything you own and void the warranty.   What should be a Felony is when you mess up and sneakily trade it in on another rifle without notifying the gunshop about your shenanigans, and leave your twisted way of thinking on someone else without notification.

You may be surprised at how many times a gun manufacturer contends with a 'sh*thouse gunsmith' messing up a rifle and expecting the warranty to cover it.   

[Coyote Hunter]

I don't have a use for a pressed fit barrel either, and I said so earlier.  I don't care who makes it.
...
By the way, the 710 is no more a POS than some Savages, almost all Stevens Bolt Actions and Mossbergs Bolt Actions are.  Remington doesn't hold the POS Patent when it comes to press fitted barrels.

… What should be a Felony is when you mess up and sneakily trade it in on another rifle without notifying the gunshop about your shenanigans, and leave your twisted way of thinking on someone else without notification.

You may be surprised at how many times a gun manufacturer contends with a 'sh*thouse gunsmith' messing up a rifle and expecting the warranty to cover it.   

Jvs –

I would be genuinely interested to know which Savage/Stevens rifles you think are are in the same POS category as the 710. Yes, some of the Savage and all of the Stevens have cheap synthetic stocks, plastic trigger guards, etc., but the actions are all basically the same, varying only in exterior finish and material (like stainless for some).  All use threaded barrels which, IMHO, puts them all in a different and better class than the 710.

Whether or not it would be a “Felony” is a matter I’ll leave up to the lawyers.  I doubt it, though.  Could you please provide a link to the appropriate federal or state statutes?

And of course we all know that the only “sh*thouse gunsmith”s are do-it-yourselfers – the “professionals” that sell their services never do crappy work…

[Old English]

I think we're all turning into rifle snobs. I have owned 2 Rem 710's. The first one..... trigger guard broke off and magazine latch broke, classic design faults. Remington sent me a new stock within the week. Second one is my wife's deer rifle. Both shoot very well, ie. less than 1.5" @ 100 yards. My last rifle was $750 and yes, it does shoot better but........ I am lucky, I have enough $$$ to own 14 rifles, not everyone does. The 710's shoot well and not everyone needs more than that for their $300 all in price. I am a little anal and think nothing of spending $500 on a scope and $800 on a rifle, plus reloading to suit. What about the guy who just wants to hunt during deer season? I think he should have the chance without spending a fortune. Remington have addressed the problems with the 710 and brought out the 770. Lets encourage people to join our sport, not knock one of the few rifle/scope combos that they can afford. 

[Graybeard]

Well, I have an update.  I called the service dept. one last time to get my youth 870 with the choke threads cut half way down the barrel fixed.  I got the same answer, please send it to an authorized repair center.  The serial # is more than two years-old , so I guess I swallow another one of Remington's turds. 

It sounds to me like that if you do you have no one but yourself to blame. They've told you to send it for repair. That's what the warranty repair stations are all about. Long years ago a local gunsmith was a warranty repair station so for me it was merely a matter of driving to his place to drop them off. I never spent one red cent there on Remington products as they were ALWAYS taken care of at no charge no matter what was wrong with them or how old they were. Remington covered the cost.

That's basically what they've told you. Send it to them and if it's a factory defect which you are saying it is then they will fix it and return it for free most likely. You'd rather bitch and mone and hold onto it than have it fixed. Fine do that but stop bitching about them if you don't give them a chance to fix it.

[30-30man]

Sorry if my update caused any feathers to be ruffled, as that was not my intentions. 
I've sent it to a repair center in the past and they contacted Remington with no help but offered to sell me another barrel.  I don't see how taking it back to the same repair center would have different results. All I wished for was a barrel swap from the factory which was a definite no.  I don't call it bitching, I call it informing.  If experiences are different, then all the better.  That is how we make good choices.  Remington has done nothing for me to make me sing their praises.  If they would stand behind their work for everyone who bought one, then I may become a Remington praiser as many here.  If we can't share our experiences, then what is this board for?

[Graybeard]

OK I guess I missed that tidbit of info. If the barrel is made incorrectly I just can't understand them doing that. I've sure never had such an experience nor has anyone I personally know. I've seen a "few" folks online make such claims and while I cannot know so will not say they aren't being truthful it is just not what my personal experience with them has been nor that of anyone I personally know.

Please explain to me what exactly you mean by this:

 

I called the service dept. one last time to get my youth 870 with the choke threads cut half way down the barrel fixed.

 

Am I to read that "that the threads for choke extend half way down the full length of the barrel" ie perhaps 10" to 12" or so. OR do I read it to mean "that the threaded area for the choke is only about half the length it should be?

What is the length of the threaded area of barrel to the best of your ability to determine it?

[Coyote Hunter]

I think we're all turning into rifle snobs. …

Perhaps I am a snob, but I don’t think so.  I do think there are much better options in the $300 price range than the 710.  No need to spend a fortune.

Case in point, I bought a used Remington M700 BDL in .308 Win for $350 from Gander Mountain.  It was in excellent condition and included a cheap scope.  Another purchase was a Ruger M77 in .30-06 for $350, in excellent condition and unscoped.   Both rifles are very accurate.  A Ruger M77 in 257 Roberts came my way for $400, in NIB condition.  It had a Leupold M8 4x in the rings and is another extremely accurate rifle. 

In lever guns my Marlin .45-70 cost me $249.95, used and unscoped.  It has taken elk at 213 yards and will shoot 5” groups at 300 yards.  My Marlin .30-30 cost me $225, and came with a cheap scope.  The .30-30 is reliably under 1.5” at 100 yards with preferred loads and I wouldn’t hesitate to take deer with it at 200 using WW 170g Power Point loads.  Realistically, these rifles would cover most hunting needs.

None of the rifles mentioned above have given me any problems and all are much better riflesthan the 710.

There is also the option of a Stevens for a price similar to the 710 and I consider the Stevens a much better rifle as well.

What about the once-a-year deer hunter?  Why not point out the flaws of the 710 and point him towards a better yet comparably priced option?

[jvs]

I would be genuinely interested to know which Savage/Stevens rifles you think are are in the same POS category as the 710. Yes, some of the Savage and all of the Stevens have cheap synthetic stocks, plastic trigger guards, etc., but the actions are all basically the same, varying only in exterior finish and material (like stainless for some).  All use threaded barrels which, IMHO, puts them all in a different and better class than the 710.

Whether or not it would be a “Felony” is a matter I’ll leave up to the lawyers.  I doubt it, though.  Could you please provide a link to the appropriate federal or state statutes?

And of course we all know that the only “sh*thouse gunsmith”s are do-it-yourselfers – the “professionals” that sell their services never do crappy work…

The appropriate Criminal Statute would be the one concerning a persons deliberate actions that could lead to injury or death.  Every State has one.  I think working on a rifle without proper training, and then screwing up the work, trading it in on the sly and letting someone else pay a dear price for (your) self-appointed 'On the Job Training' Apprenticeship.

And before I let you completely twist my post, not all do-it-yourselfers are bad at it.  The ones to look out for are the ones who do the work on their own rifles, mess it up and then get over on whoever buys the POS next. 

In the years I have owned guns I have learned a lesson that few would listen...

A good Gunsmith is expensive (and worth it).  A good gunsmith never wanted to do anything else.  A good gunsmith didn't wake up one morning and decide to take up the craft on a whim through a mail-order course, after quiting at Burger King.   A good gunsmith has a very different intelligence, both theoretical and practical.  A good gunsmith who eventually makes a mistake can make the part that was ruined by him or her.  I never knew a professional gunsmith that couldn't make a part.  (not so with the sh*thouse gunsmiths.)  A good gunsmith makes his mark on every piece he worked on.  If his mark isn't there, he didn't do it.

And finally, a good gunsmith (among others) knows a bullsh*tter when he sees one walk in the door. 

Do you go to many gunsmiths? 

[30-30man]

That's OK Greybeard, I'm getting older too and have recently taken to using reading glasses even with the large monitor I have.   I guess there is no reason to complain as long as we can fog a mirror.
The threads that were cut into the barrel for the choke inserts run half way down the barrel.  I can screw a choke down almost half way down the barrel if I wanted to; don't know how I could get it out if I did.  I have never let anybody shoot it.  I never noticed it because it sat in a box tucked in my closet for the past couple of years.  I finally recognized the problem when I cleaned out some of my collection for a field grade LC Smith.  I saved the gun because of  my nephew passing and leaving a 12 year-old son behind.  I thought that would give me an excuse to spend some time with him during our dove shoots.  I'll probably just buy another barrel or another gun for him it's no big deal really.  A barrel for the 870 would cost about the same as a new cheap pump anyway.  It's probably better if I parted with it in trade and spared all of you with my complaints.

[Graybeard]

I will try to remember to call Remington tomorrow (it's too late now to do it today) and approach them on this issue as if it's mine and see what I get from them. I'll be very surprised if I get the same story you have so far but am not saying I won't.

One more question did you buy it NEW so that you can be certain no one else has shade tree gunsmithed it to that condition?

[LaOtto222]

My first center fire rifle was a used Remington 788 in 222. It was really cheap looking, but would it shoot. The trigger guard was stamped steel, the wood was birch, the bolt was kind of sloppy and it had a ratty looking clip, but man would it shoot. After my finances were a little better off, I traded up for a Remington VS in 222. It is a beautiful rifle, that I have to this day. It never let me down and shoots very well. The action is slick and has a feel of quality. I still get comments on how nice looking it is white line spacers and all. Did I mention that 788 I had sure would shoot, I would really like to buy some thing like it today. The nearest I could get is a Stevens 200. I sure miss that piece of crap 788.

[30-30man]

Thanks for any help you can provide.  I PM the details.

[Coyote Hunter]

The appropriate Criminal Statute would be the one concerning a persons deliberate actions that could lead to injury or death.  Every State has one. ...

That’s a stretch but I’ll let it go.

... not all do-it-yourselfers are bad at it.  ...

My point exactly.

...
A good Gunsmith is expensive (and worth it).  ...

That I agree with.  The problem is there are a lot of mediocre and/or dishonest gunsmiths out there, just as there are tradespeople of all types. 

And finally, a good gunsmith (among others) knows a bullsh*tter when he sees one walk in the door. 

I’ve seen more than a couple that were pretty full of it themselves.

Do you go to many gunsmiths? 

No, I don’t, but I have used their services and a several close friends use them extensively.  Most of my work is done myself (I trained as a machinist but not as a gunsmith) and has been limited to trigger jobs, stock refinish, scope mounting, re-bluing, sight replacement, action polishing and so on.  My first trigger job was to repair a botched job done by a ‘professional’ gunsmith.  Have done all my own ever since.

[Mac11700]

Well, I have an update.  I called the service dept. one last time to get my youth 870 with the choke threads cut half way down the barrel fixed.  I got the same answer, please send it to an authorized repair center.  The serial # is more than two years-old , so I guess I swallow another one of Remington's turds. 

Did you call the number I gave you earlier and speak with Dave? He said to send it some place else besides to him?

Mac