Author Topic: 777 (Read 3301 times)

maddmaxx · « **on:** July 23, 2004, 03:17:41 PM »

Don'y know anything about 777. Can somebody fill me in? I gather it ain't popular, but don't know enough to know why.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2004, 03:20:09 PM »

I love it and have used it for a little over a year now. Water wash up, no smell , clean burning and faster velocity. No downside....<><.... :grin:

Ramrod · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2004, 03:32:07 PM »

Bullseye and Unique are even hotter! If you want to shoot smokeless, why are you messing with muzzleloaders ? Try REAL black powder, and learn something.

tundragriz · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2004, 05:37:39 PM »

Started trying the 3F version just this week. Unless I find some kind of negative, I'll stick with it. Shooting a flintlock and they suggest putting 5gr. of 4F in the tube to aid ignition of the 777. I haven't done this and so far I can't tell any difference in the ignition between it and the Goex FF.

I'll be doing more shooting tomorrow with the chrony and checking for groups. Let you know how it goes.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2004, 05:50:42 PM »

Geez, I see no reason to use T7 at $18 a lb when Goex is about half that, why would you want to use T7 instead? :?

tundragriz · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2004, 07:02:22 PM »

Quick,

This fall season will be my 25th year of blackpowder flintlock hunting. So I am not new to blackpowder. Frankly, up to a few weeks ago I didn't even know there were alternatives to blackpowder for a flintlock. I heard of pyrodex and 777 but thought they were some form of blackpowder. You know my other post concerning air travel with BP. It was only thru researching that, that I found there were other alternatives.

Any Hoo,
For me, it mainly comes down to the cleaning. Others may consider it traditional and nostalgic to walk into their well insulated, oil furnace heated home, turn on the electric lights, heat a bucket of water on the range, dump in a little chinese made detergent, and clean their traditional blackpowder gun. But for me, this is not part of the enjoyment of muzzleloading.

For those that use a hand forged kettle over a wood fire, patches made from human powered looms, and soap hand made from lye and animal fat, I admire their dedication.

I found with the 777, I dampen about 3 patches under the faucet, alternate them with dry ones, one patch with bore butter, and I am finished in about 3 minutes. I am not worried about the cost of the powder. I save it many times over in time.

Probably could also put some dollar value in the greatly decreased corrosion factor of 777. Here we can take a few deer during the season. If I fire a couple shots during the day and reload for the next opportunity, I won't clean that gun that night. It might not get cleaned for a couple weeks. With 777 this is not a problem.

Additional factors are up to 200fps higher velocities (I'll find out tomorrow) and at least 10 rounds before I have a problem pushing a bullet down the barrel. After 10, all I need is a little water and I'm back to the beginning.

So thats my story.

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/t7granular.php

Ramrod · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2004, 03:12:28 AM »

I want to make it clear I was just kidding about the smokless thing, NEVER try it in a muzzleloader.
777 is neither fish nor fowl, not black and not smokless, though it can be shipped as smokeless.
Cost is a big thing, it's $22 dollars a pound around here.
And I know that those who have not done it won't believe it, but the only thing you need to clean black powder fouling is WATER! It was standard military procedure all over the world for over 500 years.

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2004, 09:28:52 AM »

I have used t 7 in my percussion guns,buy my T C flinter just will not shoot it. Many flash in the pans. Got some 3 f goex and it shoots great.

crow_feather · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2004, 11:23:24 AM »

tundragriz,

At least 777 can be carried like smokeless in an airplane. And if you travel by plane to your hunt, it is a big plus.

I myself consider cleaning my rifle more pleasure than pain. It is easy enough to do with water, or moose milk if I'm in the field. Moose milk is a great cleaner of BP rifles - cause it has water in it.

We shoot traditional because we enjoy recreating the experience of our ancesters. Deer, elk and bear were killed with those rifles and powder that was inferior to today's powder. An extra 200 fps will not make anything any deader. And the range limitation is as much because of sights as bullet speed.

We can improve the speed of the ball with 777, now that we can shoot farther, we can improve the sights with fiber optics, or scopes. Now that we can group our shots better, we need more consistant ignition with shotgun primers and more consistant flight with a better shaped bullet. Now that it recoils more, we can improve the recoil with a rubber recoil pad, and a more modern stock shape, .......................next thing we need to do is post on the other forum.

C F

filmokentucky · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2004, 12:41:18 PM »

Or, one could simply use a smokeless powder cartridge type gun....

maddmaxx · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2004, 05:08:31 PM »

Hey, thanks for all the replies. Now I know a little more. Maybe I'll try a little. Sounds like it might work a bit beyyer in my .22ml anyhow.

Led · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2004, 04:16:07 AM »

I love 777. Work's fabulous in my percussion tool's.....and is a lot of fun in my C&B revolver's!

I have just bought a great plain's flinter.....never toyed with one of those yet.....and am disappointed to hear from Good Time Charlie that there were many "flash in the pan's" with it. I was hoping that 777 would work great in them. I will try it anyway and hope my result's may fare better!

In a lot of location's....REAL black powder is hard....if not impossible to find. So having a good sub to fall back on is very nice.

crow_feather · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2004, 07:33:04 AM »

Black powder can be ordered through the internet - in 25 pound lots. It don't go stale and it's a while before you have ta reorder.

C F

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2004, 08:22:43 AM »

I've found that the best way to get Goex is to find a local(?) dealer and have them order it and then go pick it up, even if it means driving a couple hundred miles once every few years to get it in 25lb orders. Sharing with a friend or 2 helps, also!! We store ours in an old metal fridge well away from the house, has worked for years without powder degradation. I've got some good buys from folks that bought lots of powder at one time or another and no longer needed it. Got a 25lb bulk containerl once for $40 cuz they didn't want it around, I put it in 1lb goex cans I had and still have some of it, that was about 8 yrs ago! Look for a local blackpowder club, they usually have the a connection for getting powder at reasonable rates, last time I bought this way it was $6.25 a pound to the members, which will depend on how much they order at a time.

jh45gun · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2004, 04:58:30 PM »

You guys crack me up! If the Holy Mountain men would have had access to 777 they would have used it in a heart beat. The only reason they hung on to flinters for so long was they did not have to worry about caps in a area that supplies were hard to find except normally once or twice a year. Yea black is traditional so what. 777 smokes and makes a boom just like black but more efficient. Why knock some one for using a product that is made to act like black. You guys get uppidy for all the wrong reasons. Let a shooter decide what he wants to shoot and yea he cannot shoot at a match or meet with it so what then he can shoot black if he wants. As long as a guy shoots a traditional gun so what does it matter if he shoots black or 777 or one of the other substitutes! Some of you guys are hypicrites and scare away beginners who just ask a honest question. There is room for Black Powder and the substitutes to work side by side with out predjudice. Go to a meet where only BP is allowed understandable tradition and all that. Want to use 777 for hunting as it is more efficient and cleaner why not? There should be overlapping usage with out criticism.

Led · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2004, 03:01:08 AM »

Just out of curiosity......could one enlarge the touch hole a tad for better ignition of 777 on a flinter? Or isn't that recommended? Paging back several page's I have noted some post's regarding making slight change's to the touch hole for improving ignition.

It's just that I have 4 lb's of 2f.....and 4 lb's of 3f in 777. As I said I love it in my percussion's and C&B revolver's.....it sure would be sweet to get my flinter to work with it also.

If I need black to make the flinter work.....I will just switch to it for everything.....but since I'm using the 777 for everything now....and have a ton of the stuff.......well.... :cry: ....you know what I'm getting at......

crow_feather · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2004, 04:24:55 AM »

jh45gun,

If those guys had access to a 375 H&H, they would have used that. I crack you up because I prefer to shoot the way my ancesters did? I got news! This is a TRADITIONAL forum. You don't go to a woman's forum and start talking about your prostate. You don't go to a Traditional forum and start talking about the merits of 777. Get the idea - TRADITIONAL = BLACK POWDER. 777= NONTRADITIONAL.

If 777 was invented, I doubt it would have been used. It gets wet, it's all over - no powder.

You want to write about your traditional rifle, write. If you want to write about your 777 powder, don't ask that it be here - IT ISN"T TRADITIONAL.

C F

jh45gun · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2004, 04:39:34 AM »

Quote from: crow_feather

jh45gun,

If those guys had access to a 375 H&H, they would have used that. I crack you up because I prefer to shoot the way my ancesters did? I got news! This is a TRADITIONAL forum. You don't go to a woman's forum and start talking about your prostate. You don't go to a Traditional forum and start talking about the merits of 777. Get the idea - TRADITIONAL = BLACK POWDER. 777= NONTRADITIONAL.

If 777 was invented, I doubt it would have been used. It gets wet, it's all over - no powder.

You want to write about your traditional rifle, write. If you want to write about your 777 powder, don't demand that it be here - IT ISN"T TRADITIONAL.

C F

I DID NOT DEMAND DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I was making a statement not demanding anything I think it is up to the shooter what they want to use. In the past I may have not shot as much black as you have but I have shot my share! So it is not like I have never used it! Lots of folks shoot 777 in traditional guns hey at least they are traditional STYLE guns. So what if they want to use it for hunting but shoot black for matches? SPEAKING OF STYLE, if you are so darn traditional then why do you alow repo's?

IF Traditional was the case then I would think Repo's would be out of the question as most of them are not exact as to guns of the past! You allow one thing but do not allow the next. Explain?

filmokentucky · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2004, 05:34:28 AM »

Oh,no! Not this one again! Didn't we just do this? Run for it while you can.
As for using 777 in a flintlock, it might be possible to drill out the vent or relieve it and get it to work, but it's probably easier to use BP. The folks
at Pyrodex used to say that it didn't work in flinters. So, I'd use the real stuff in my flinters and the pretend stuff in my percussion guns (if I had to use it at all).
As for clean up, BP cleans up with hot water and patches in no time at all, so I don't think you gain a whole lot there with the new stuff.
If you want to use the replica powders go ahead. It's your choice. It's just that this forum is for folks using traditional style firearms in a traditional way, so you may hear a few quibbles about your choice of propellant, that's all. But, it never hurts to remember that we are supposed to be having fun here. Right?

crow_feather · « **Reply #19 on:** July 26, 2004, 05:58:43 AM »

jh45gun,

First, I changed the word demand to ask.

If I could afford a rifle from the 1840's and if it was shootable, I would shoot it. But there are only so many 1840's rifles. Also only so many possible bags and powder horns. And the cost of all is way above what I can afford. So I do with what I can afford and yearn for the other.

There are people that find the same problem with black powder. They can't get it cept in 25 pound lots, or they just can't get it. In order to shoot their rifles, they have to use a substitute. But I do not think it is right for them to come to the Traditional page and discuss the merits of the modern black powder substitute that they are using.

If your comment is that the rifles are modern reproductions, yes they are, but they are made to somewhat copy equipment made in the 1840's. Same as all of the rest of the equipment. 777 is not made to copy what was used in the past, ie; not traditional.

Use it if you like it. But I do not think that it should be a topic of discussion on the traditional forum.

C F

Filmokentucky - a traditionalist can only take so much.

jh45gun · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2004, 06:21:03 AM »

Quote from: crow_feather

jh45gun,

First, I changed the word demand to ask.

If I could afford a rifle from the 1840's and if it was shootable, I would shoot it. But there are only so many 1840's rifles. Also only so many possible bags and powder horns. And the cost of all is way above what I can afford. So I do with what I can afford and yearn for the other.

There are people that find the same problem with black powder. They can't get it cept in 25 pound lots, or they just can't get it. In order to shoot their rifles, they have to use a substitute. But I do not think it is right for them to come to the Traditional page and discuss the merits of the modern black powder substitute that they are using.

If your comment is that the rifles are modern reproductions, yes they are, but they are made to somewhat copy equipment made in the 1840's. Same as all of the rest of the equipment. 777 is not made to copy what was used in the past, ie; not traditional.

Use it if you like it. But I do not think that it should be a topic of discussion on the traditional forum.

C F

Filmokentucky - a traditionalist can only take so much.

Thank you thats all I asked for was a good answer and you provided it. One comment about the 777 VS black. Unless side by side a person who does not shoot muzzle loaders who watched a person shoot a Muzzle Loader using either powder probably would not know which is which they both go boom and smoke. :grin: Of course with Black you get the smell that 777 does not provide. Nothing like smelling burnt powder :grin:

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 26, 2004, 07:25:42 AM »

Believe me I am not trying to push any buttons or upset anyone. I read this somewhere and thought I would post it here. Please don't blast me I am just curious myself.

Aah, all those opinions. In the end, you're the one that has to sleep with your decision. If you have no personal ethical problem with an in-line, use one. If you have to be "traditional", use a 150 year old rifle, leave your binos and range finder at home, and get a horse and leave your truck at home too. Oh yeah, some time before season you need to kill a deer, tan his hide, and make some buckskins so you can really fit the bill. No Gore-Tex and rubber soled boots for you. No scent-lock fabric, GPSs, or other new-fangled crap either. Just you and the elk. Hell, why not use a spear? How can someone use a flintlock rifle, a $1000 Swaro bino, a rangefinder, a GPS, and all those fancy clothes after driving to the area in a 2000-something $40,000 truck and still call it a traditional hunt?

jh45gun · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2004, 08:20:52 AM »

Makes ya wonder :grin:

maddmaxx · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2004, 08:54:19 AM »

Sure has been an interesting can of worms! Glad I opened it up, as I learned something. Now tell me about swiss powder. Traditional or repro? Better or worse? Only types of ML powder I've had experience with are Pyrodex, goex, and C&H.

crow_feather · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2004, 09:34:42 AM »

well guys, I guess that there are limits of reasonableness to everything.

Is it reasonable to ride a horse so far when you only have so many days off to hunt? no

Is it reasonable to chance loosing a piece of history shooting full loads out of a 175 year old rifle? no

And I can see the scent lock and other goodies, but is it reasonable to risk frostbite in the snow when my wife and kids depend on my income? no

And when I hunt traditional, I hunt with a spy glass, and iron sights. As far as the spear, I choose to hunt with what was used in the 1830's not 1830 BC.

God be with you
C F

crow_feather · « **Reply #25 on:** July 26, 2004, 09:41:43 AM »

I believe Swiss powder is traditional black powder of a very good quality. I had heard that it is hard to find these days - at least in Eastern Idaho.

And cans of worms are not bad as long as views are expressed concerning equipment, and not personalities.

Heck, speaking one's mind is American as Apple dumplings............er - pie

C F

Led · « **Reply #26 on:** July 26, 2004, 10:21:25 AM »

In my case...I just didn't know where to go for info.

I do it "all" traditional....EXCEPT for the powder. Now the "modern" section is.....I imagine.....about inline's and sabot's and all the stuff I don't use. In fact I never even looked in there because I'm assuming it is.

I feel this forum is as close as I can get for what I'm doing. I just happen to use 777. Now Gentlemen....where do WE go for question's and answer's?

:?

KING · « **Reply #27 on:** July 26, 2004, 11:31:22 AM »

I happen to shoot most brands of Swiss,Elephant,Goex,Wano,and Schutzen powders...I guess that is all of em at present that are being manufactured. Each brand of powder has its own merits depending on the application......3ff Swiss in my .32 flinter,Elephant in my Bess and Goex in the .fo caplock. I also load em for BPCR. I have found that most touch holes on flinters are a little too small so I drill mine out to about .070 to .080 and this improves the ignition by a great deal. Come on guys...no more bickering at this point over powders. We are going to have some problems once in awhile over some of the propellants but it does not hurt to hear what they hae to say. On this Traditional forum we do get into some gray areas once inna while...........stay safe..King

crow_feather · « **Reply #28 on:** July 26, 2004, 11:36:26 AM »

led,

I do see your point. It's one of those rock and hard place type of things. I guess if it were me, I would write.

Hey fellas, I need some info on 777 powder. I don't want to upset the traditional crowd, so if you could pm me with any info you might have, I would be very appreciative

led

Best a luck to ya with that new fangled powder stuff

C F

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 26, 2004, 11:41:50 AM »

Quote from: Led

In my case...I just didn't know where to go for info.

I do it "all" traditional....EXCEPT for the powder. Now the "modern" section is.....I imagine.....about inline's and sabot's and all the stuff I don't use. In fact I never even looked in there because I'm assuming it is.

I feel this forum is as close as I can get for what I'm doing. I just happen to use 777. Now Gentlemen....where do WE go for question's and answer's?

:?

I am in your shoes also, I do it all. I shoot my Renegade with round balls and black powder, but I have tried triple7 in it with sabots. I shoot Encore inlines and sabots and triple7 in it also. I just enjoy shooting and experimenting. The inlines section, I am sure you can get your answer there. People go to both places to post. I personally am not pickie about what you post, as long as it stays in the rules on all areas. If I or anyone else can help in the inline area, I am sure we will.

Led, come on over and see if we can help.

Crow_feather, I hope I did not step on your toes here.