777

[Ramrod]

Led, I don't think you will gain anything by drilling out your vent, reason being that 777 has a higher ignition temperature than black, it takes alot more fire to light it up. This is why Hodgdon recomends you use a duplex load of black and 777, and prime with black. Since you have to buy the real thing anyway, why bother with expensive substitutes?

[KING]

  I almost forgot,we can not say what they would have used in the past.........basically...........because they did not have it.  We can only say what was used and attempt to do the best with that bit of information.  We do get into the gray areas of powder types such as the 777.  I have drilled out my touch holes to .070 or .080 and found better ignition across the board.  Sometimes we just have to shoot what it is that we have on hand,and black can be hard to find at times.  If you can get black you are a lot better off.  There is no powder on the market anyplace that you do not have to clean your bbl after shooting.  Stay safe......King

[quickdtoo]

I happen to shoot most brands of Swiss,Elephant,Goex,Wano,and Schutzen powders...I guess that is all of em at present that are being manufactured.  Each brand of powder has its own merits depending on the application......3ff Swiss in my .32 flinter,Elephant in my Bess and Goex in the .fo caplock.  I also load em for BPCR.  I have found that most touch holes on flinters are a little too small so I drill mine out to about .070 to .080 and this improves the ignition by a great deal.  Come on guys...no more bickering at this point over powders.  We are going to have some problems once in awhile over some of the propellants but it does not hurt to hear what they hae to say.  On this Traditional forum we do get into some gray areas once inna while...........stay safe..King

One of the problems with opening up the touch hole is the rifle/fowler can become self priming. This was the problem I had with my .62 cal NW tradegun, had to close the frizzen to load to keep all my powder. To make that safe I had to make a leather frizzen cover to prevent an accidental discharge. On trail walks, I didn't like being primed before ready so I ended up making a metal touch hole plug that I could stick in the touch hole, close the frizzen on it, and then pull it out just enough to allow air to pass, but not the powder,  tried a feather, but it just blew it out when I rammed the ball or wads down. The opened up touch hole made the difference of a lot of phffts and no shoot or real slow ignition if it did go off, to real quick and reliable ignition, even in bad weather. If it ain't one thing, it's another....

[sabotloader]

Geez, I see no reason to use T7 at $18 a lb when Goex is about half that, why would you want to use T7 instead? :?

Quickdtoo, look at the difference in ballistics - that helped make up my mind, besides the other advantages of T7 minus the disadvantages of real BP

Copy of a post by x-caliber - think that explains more...

I did some more chronographing this weekend with the 209 X 50 pistol. Now I remember why I bought a chronograph. I killed two hogs last year with this pistol with 100 grains GOEX FFG and a Hornady 250 grain SST. I was very disappointed in the killing power of this combination, but it was the most accurate combination that I had tried at the time. I have never chronographed it until now and I think I know why I didn't get the expansion on the SST bullet that I was after.

All of the following loads were 250 grain Hornady SST/Sabots and CCI 209 primers:

100 grains GOEX FFG - Average velocity only 1199 fps  , extreme spread 56 fps No wonder I wasn't getting any bullet expansion

90 grains Pyrodex RS - Average velocity 1422 fps, extreme spread 50 fps
100 grains Pyrodex RS - Average velocity 1485 fps, extreme spread 82 fps
110 grains Pyrodex RS - Average velocity 1463 fps, extreme spread 121 fps

After this testing, I will be shooting Triple 7 in this gun.

don't know if you would be interested in this or not, but last weekend I took my 14 1/2" Bullberry 209X50 BP Encore to the range to do some chronographing. I had never tried Triple 7 powder, so I was going to see how it performed. I started with 60 grains of Triple 7 and worked up in 10 grain increments to 110 grains. I used a CCI primer and a 250 grain Hornady SST bullet/sabot in all loads. The results were as follows:

60 grains T7 - Average velocity 1375 fps
70 grains T7 - Average velocity 1433 fps
80 grains T7 - Average veloctiy 1479 fps
90 grains T7 - Average velocity 1532 fps
100 grains T7 - Average velocity 1607 fps
110 grains T7 - Average velocity 1677 fps

The extreme spreads were very good in my opinion. The best extreme spread was 9 fps and the worst was 31 fps. Accuracy was about the same in all loads with the 70 grain load giving the best group( and the best extreme spread). All of the groups were 1" to 1 1/4" at 50 yards. I am very pleased with the velocity of these loads. As a comparison I fired a shot from my 26" 209 X 50 using the same bullet/sabot using 110 grains of T7 and got a reading of 1950 fps. In other words, a 12" shorter barrel is losing 275 fps.  

[Ramrod]

sabotloader, what you and the other "modern" shooters just don't seem to grasp, is that there are alot of guys ot there that are of the BIG, SLOW, SOFT LEAD SLUG= DEAD CRITTER persuasion who have no use for your ballistic jibberish. Chrono-what? Chrono-what-the-heck-does-it-have-to-do-with-muzzleloaders? I suppose you could throw it at small game!

[quickdtoo]

I guess when I'm in the traditional mode I expect to be shooting a patched round ball and 200fps isn't gonna make a deer any deader within round ball ranges shot with open sights. Now if I was in my inline mode, I do shoot bullets and there is a definate advantage to T7 which is what I shoot behind my modern bullets in my modern guns. But, in the end, T7 is just another black powder substitute, albeit and expensive alternative. But I still prefer Goex in my flinters with a PRB, just a natural combination.

[sabotloader]

Quickdtoo, agreed

Ramrod, you are right, would never argue that but, how do you know what the guy wants to do?

[Darrell H]

How did I get dragged into this?  

For the record, I posted this on the T/C handguns section, not the blackpowder section.  The Encore 209 X 50 pistol is just another of my T/C pistol barrels that I like to hunt and shoot with.  I was merely pointing out that the GOEX FFG did not work as well in this gun as the Triple 7 did, but then it was not really designed to.  This gun is legal in firearms deer season and during firearms small game hunts, not primitive weapons season.

FWIW, during "primitive weapons" season I hunt with a Lyman GPR shooting GOEX FFG and a patched round ball.

X

[crow_feather]

x-caliber,

I don't think that I have ever shot 2f in a pistol no matter what the caliber.  I have found that it is just too slow and as you have already noticed, doesn't do a great job.

I shoot GOEX 3f and have never had a problem getting my ball to the target.  I don't think that I would want to try any of my pistols on large game though.  Just don't figure they have enough power.

C F

[quickdtoo]

I shoot GOEX 3f and have never had a problem getting my ball to the target.  I don't think that I would want to try any of my pistols on large game though.  Just don't figure they have enough power.

C F

Not to hijack this thread but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I want to share a story related to the "power" of a pistol.  :lol:  Early in my blackpowder years, I had bought a flint pistol for trailwalk competition. I had the only pistol of the 3 "amigos" that were new to the buskskinning hobby, so I shared with my friends so we could all enjoy the sport. On one particular trailwalk, I wasn't shooting but my best friend was and the other 2 of us were just along for fun and doing the loading since it was my pistol. Every time "Jake" would shoot, he'd hand the gun to me and say, "load this for me "boy""! Well, after a half dozen targets, this was startin to spark my creativity, to say the least! :wink: Soooo, I did! I loaded it real good!!! The normal load was 15gr 3f goex...so I put in a 15gr load, and another and another......He was shootin pretty good up to that point, but after that 45gr load went off, he didn't hit too many targets for the rest of the trail...also saved me from the embarrassment of being beaten with my own toy by someone else as I had already shot the trail with a mediocre score. :oops:

[Darrell H]

Crow feather wrote:

I don't think that I would want to try any of my pistols on large game though. Just don't figure they have enough power.

C F

Crow-Feather I like to hunt with handguns.  This was all that I was doing was trying to find a load in this particular barrel that did have enough power to hunt with during regular firearms season.  That was the reason for the use of a chronograph, not to throw it at small game like someone suggested.   :-D

In my opinion, a .45 250 grain bullet launched at 1700 fps is adequate for large game at reasonable ranges.

X

[crow_feather]

quickdtoo,

Remind me ta never turn my back onya

[quickdtoo]

quickdtoo,

Remind me ta never turn my back onya

I'm as good a learner as a teacher! So is Jake!!! :wink: We've been shootin/huntin/fishin partners for over 30yrs, still goin strong.....played many a trick on each other, neither of us is ever one up on the other for long, if ever....I recall the time we were fishin the wind river and catchin was slow so we pulled the boat out of the water and headed for the little town of Stevenson for breakfast. Walked into Betty's Silver Bar and Grill, looked at the menu and ordered from the waitress. I got up and headed for the men's room. When I came back to the table, Jake headed for the men's room, I told him first door on the right....he did exactly what I said and walked right into the ladies room.....he's never forgot that and reminds me every time we're in a restaurant! And the stories have continued.......

[crow_feather]

After a fishin trip, a friend and I stopped at a Wendys.  After his restroom visit, my friend walked up to me standing in line.  He grabbed the milkshake that was on a tray in front of me and took one huge lick off the top.  Then gave me one big smile.  Thats when I got to inform him that the milkshake wasn't mine, but belonged to the 6' 3" 250 pound mean lookin fella standing behind him.  

C F

[Ramrod]

That was the reason for the use of a chronograph, not to throw it at small game like someone suggested.   :-D

In my opinion, a .45 250 grain bullet launched at 1700 fps is adequate for large game at reasonable ranges.
X

That 250 grainer might not be adequate if it is a modern jacketed job and blows up on a bone. Alot of inliners are driving pistol bullets way beyond their design limits, and wondering why they can't kill anything. Now a pure lead slug on the other hand, would be deadly at less than 1000 fps.

And I think I could take rabbits and squirrels and such out to about 15 yards with that crono-meter thingy.

[Graybeard]

If those guys had access to a 375 H&H, they would have used that. I crack you up because I prefer to shoot the way my ancesters did? I got news! This is a TRADITIONAL forum. You don't go to a woman's forum and start talking about your prostate. You don't go to a Traditional forum and start talking about the merits of 777. Get the idea - TRADITIONAL = BLACK POWDER. 777= NONTRADITIONAL.

No actually I guess I DON'T get the idea.

This forum was started for the discussion of the USE of more traditional guns such as side hammer and under hammer as opposed to inline guns. Well let me correct that to say that since the split it has been intended that way. I don't care what kinda projectile or powder is used as long as the gun is side hammer or under hammer this is the place for that discussion.

Discuss and disagree all you want but discussion of all uses of traditional type guns is appropriate here. That means BP, Pyrodex, 777 or any of the other BP substitues as long as they are fired in a cap lock or flint lock side hammer or under hammer (NOT INLINE) gun.

This is NOT the Hide and we're not purist here.

It's just that this forum is for folks using traditional style firearms in a traditional way, so you may hear a few quibbles about your choice of propellant, that's all.

NOT correct. Apparently there is some misunderstanding about what this forum is and is not. It is NOT a purist forum. It IS for discussion of all uses of the more traditional side hammer and under hammer guns regardless of the projectile or propellant used.

But, it never hurts to remember that we are supposed to be having fun here. Right?

Now that is correct.

But I do not think it is right for them to come to the Traditional page and discuss the merits of the modern black powder substitute that they are using.

Once again I must say that there is some misunderstanding of what this forum is about. It is NOT a purist forum. Discussion of BP substitues IS an allowed subject here. As long as their use is in side hammer or under hammer and not inline guns.

I feel this forum is as close as I can get for what I'm doing. I just happen to use 777. Now Gentlemen....where do WE go for question's and answer's?

Right here. This is the proper place.

GB

[Redhawk1]

Thank you for clearing that up for us GB. I have a side hammer, and I try different projectiles and propellants. It is nice to hear from others that do the same. It would be like telling someone shooting an inline with black powder and conical bullets, to go to the Traditional area because we only shoot modern stuff here. I just think we all need to be a little more open minded here. I personally shoot both and if I can learn anything new, I am all ears.  

[jh45gun]

Thanks Bill your views mirror my own as long as it is a traditional style gun whats the beef.  :grin:

[AndyHass]

Thank you Greybeard.  I have been questioning where I am supposed to post about shooting 777 out of  sidelock for quite awhile now...while it obviously doesn't belong in INLINE management here always had a problem...that left a large percentage of ML shooters homeless.

[jh45gun]

Thank you Greybeard.  I have been questioning where I am supposed to post about shooting 777 out of  sidelock for quite awhile now...while it obviously doesn't belong in INLINE management here always had a problem...that left a large percentage of ML shooters homeless.

IF ya feel homeless come over to the Misc Marlin talk I am a moderator there and I will talk muzzle loaders with you at any time with out censure!  :grin:  Just look in the Marlin section here at GB. It may not be a marlin issue but we talk about lots of stuff there. Jim

[KING]

   and.......I do not even know what the " HIDE" is.  maybe if I could figure out this puter a little better...........  stay safe.King

[filmokentucky]

I believe that the "hide" is the outside of a cow--or maybe a buffalo.  Of
course, I  also thought 777 was a big old airplane made by Boeing. Any
how, all this talk of elongated projectiles in traditional firearms has got me to wondering if anyone has tried minie-type slugs in a smooth bore flintlock? Say a 20 bore fowler for instance? It seems like someone would have tried it back in the old days when the minie first appeared. Basically,
we're just talking about a shotgun slug like people used to use before the high speed sabot rounds came along. Anyone?

[sabotloader]

filmokentucky,

That is a very good question, I honestly have no idea, but it seems like you would have to have some sort of rotation to get it fly correctly.  Without rotation would it know what is top or bottom - front or back?

Hope somebody comes up with an answer..

[filmokentucky]

Sabot- Back when I was a kid-admittedly some time ago- shotgun slugs were just lead slugs about 2 bore diameters long. They were fired in a regular shotgun barrel- no rifling and usually no choke. Accuracy was acceptable out to maybe 50 or 60 yards. Here in Massachusetts, you had use them during deer season as rifles were not allowed and neither was buckshot.
   I think there used to be a minie available in .69 caliber for the various flint muskets and the 1842 U.S. musket. Maybe a call to Track of the Wolf
would be a good idea. It seems like it would be an interesting experiment to see what kind of range and accuracy a smooth bore would give with a
minie. I can easily visualize some old timer in say 1855 or 1860 trying a minie in his smooth bore on the off chance that it would extend the usefulness of his old fusil.

[quickdtoo]

For a comparison, I have shot patched .610 round balls in my .62 cal trade gun with 12" patterns at 100yds. Note I said "patterns", not groups, but it was consistent considering the tradegun had no rear site! I actually bent the barrel up to give me some elevation in sighting so I didn't have to cover the target with the barrel to make hits at 75yd-150yds. At a national primitive tradegun silhouette shoot that had targets to 250yds, you could see the round balls actually curve like a thrown baseball curveball when standing behind the shooters when the sunlight was just right! I would suspect that a minie type projectile shot in a smoothie would eventually tumble since it has no stabilizing spin.

[filmokentucky]

Talk about serendipity or synchronicity or whatever the New Age folks call it, my copy of Muzzle Blasts arrived today and I just got around to looking at it. The Bevel Brothers talk about shooting slugs in smooth bores. Apparently it's do-able. The problem is finding slugs- they don't seem to be available on the market.
   I found my TOTW catalog and Lyman makes a mold for the.69 caliber musket. It casts a minie that weighs 730 grains! This would turn my 1842 musket into a serious stopper. It bears looking into.

[sabotloader]

This is interesting to me and I don't even have the equipment to investigate.  I hope you go for it and let us or at me know how it comes out ".69 slug chunk of lead coming out of a barrel" that could really break something...

[KING]

:-D   I was reading that in the mag also.  It seems if the old hollow base type is used the better accuracy.  I will have to try this in a couple of my smooth bores.  Seems the RB does a little better .  See my thread on Shooting my .62 Trade gun yesterday.  stay safe.King

[quickdtoo]

:oops:

[tundragriz]

Wow!! This post has taken on some life!

GB, Thanks for the guidance.  I am fairly new to your site and I was not getting a very good feeling from it.

Back to the original poster Maddmaxx,
I had the opportunity this past weekend to try the 3f 777.  I am very happy with the results.  Even with my flintlock I had 100% ignition using only 777 in the bore and 4F Goex in the pan.  Had to clean the pan/frizzen every so often and flip the flint every so often but the 777 was completely reliable.  I cleaned after 15 shots just because I thought I should but I really didn't need to.  Everything was still smooth and I actually got very little fouling out of the barrel.  

Flinters who have tried 777 without much success, you may want to try one of the flashholes that use an allen wrench.  I've had 4 flintlocks and this style improved my ignition in all of them.

For those interested in more details about the 777, velocity, accuracy, etc., refer to the Lyman GPH post on this forum.  I put all the details there because that poster was using the exact same setup as mine.



One comment about some of the off topic earlier posts regarding traditionalism.  I will miss the humor if the ranting and raving stops.  It really hit my funny bone reading the post about doing it like our ancestors and then the same person suggesting that we buy our blackpowder on the internet, and I guess we would also have to use a credit card to do that, or maybe not because the sites that sell the blackpowder probably accept virtual fur in trade.