Author Topic: H&R a New Slimmer Company...  (Read 2506 times)

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Offline hoytcanon

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H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« on: January 25, 2012, 11:14:21 AM »
I was just talking to a buddy who is just back from the 2012 SHOT Show... he had an extensive conversation with an H&R rep at their booth... apparently the last couple years have been as tough on H&R as they have been on many companies and individuals... He said that they are tightening the belt for 2012, and sticking with their bread n' butter options... so what is gone? what is new?... Briefly, after the conversation and from viewing the horribly awkward new 2012 catalogue (Marlin/H&R);
 
The entire line of Topper shotguns has been discontinued.  :'( 
The Ultra Varmint (Choate version) is discontinued.  :(
The company has dropped .204 Ruger as a caliber option.  :o 
 
Any other information available??? Feel free to chime in...  ::)
Hoyt Handi's; Ultra Black .22 K-Hornet Shorty, Black Synthetic K-Hornet Shorty & Nickel .410 Combo (sons), Ultra Granite Grey .22 BR Rem, Ultra Nutmeg .223 & .30/30 Shorty Combo (sons), Ultra Forest .223/7mm-08 Shorty Combo, Ultra Forest .243/.308 Combo, Ultra Nutmeg .243/.308 Combo (sons),  Jacaranda/Cocobolo .30/30 & 7.62X39 Shorty Combo, Ultra Black/Stainless .260 Rem Stub, Ultra Black/Stainless .338 Federal Stub,  Ultra Grey .358 Win, Ultra Grey .35 Whelen, Walnut/Cocobolo Mannlicher .357 MAX, Buffalo Classic Mannlicher .44 Mag Shorties w/NDS-38 peeps (X2; Sons & mine), Ultra Grey Stainless .45/70 & .243 & 20 Gauge Combo, Buffalo Classic 26" .45/70, 9.3X74R Mannlicher, Synthetic Nickel .410 & .30/30 & Versa Pak .22 LR Shorty Combo, Ultra Forest/Cocobolo 12 Gauge 3.5" Turkey; Most scoped with DNZ or Dura Sight one-piece bases and Mueller, Hawke or Nikon scopes... several with Skinner Peeps and Williams Fire Sight ramps.

Offline Lon371

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 01:37:26 PM »
 It's a shame to see it happen. But anytime a big outfit buys a smaller company. When something is to get cut, the smaller is the first to go. I would bet the speech the Marlin/H&R folks got something like" we bought this company because it is proffitable, we will only be making very small changes over the next year or so" Meaning we did not want the competition, so get your resume in order ;)
 
Lonny

Offline twoshooter

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 02:30:29 PM »
It is a sad thing, but not unexpected. I watched an episode of guns and ammo TV, or NRA something or other, that was expounding on the "fact that older guys need to get over their prejudice against AR platform rifles". They were discussing that they are no different than any other semi auto gun. That is true. It is also true that veterans today are familiar with and have confidence in that  type of weapon, just like WW I guys did the springfield, or WWII had the Garand. There is also the video games etc today that let you rack up points for both kills in simulated combat, and even hunting situations. There is not a fast moving, competitive, high energy side to calmly smelting lead, casting a bullet, sizing and lubing it, loading it in a single stage press into a huge old case designed decades ago, taking that cartridge in a single shot weapon into the field and picking out a single animal, killing it, and eating it.
There IS that side to burning through hundreds, or even thousands of rounds, at targets and simulated bad guys. It also is more lucrative to companies to sell mass produced parts and weapons that go for $800 to 1200 a pop, with a rate of fire measured in rounds per minute rather than minutes per round,  than one that sells for $250 and the owner may never buy a factory round for it, just components. I for one have not bought a factory centerfire rifle round in 20 years. I cant expect the factory to get too excited about that. 
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Offline quatroclick

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 02:57:32 PM »
"fact that older guys need to get over their prejudice against AR platform rifles".

I'm not sure why that is.  I own an AR, but I really don't shoot it much at all.  It throws my brass all over the place.  It's reasonably accurate for an AR, but it really isn't that accurate.  99% of the time I would grab my H&R .223 over the AR.  Thinking about it, I don't shoot autoloader pistols that much either.  I just hate looking for and often losing some of my brass.  In combat I will take the AR.

Offline keith44

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 04:05:39 PM »
I'm with ya twoshooter, only I don't own a semi-auto anything.  er except a 9 mil.  I prefer Single shot and lever action rifles, pump, and twin tube shotguns, and a handgun is a revolver in my house.
keep em talkin' while I reload
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Offline ratdog

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 04:12:37 PM »
i am one of the old guys i have 2 ar's they are over priced but they can really shoot accurately. i really don't care for plastic pistols but they have there place to i like to try different guns if i don't like something about one i dump it makes things more interesting. ;D

Offline silver surfer

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 04:32:38 PM »
Mmmmm, Mmmm, Mmm :'( , saw this coming three years ago.....  It's a sad thing indeed.
I hope the "Big Green" realizes how many people in states like MS and LA dearly love their Handi's and T/C's for "primitive" season.  This is not to start a debate about the definition of "Primitive",  but the current state laws here allow people to use the Handi and now T/C in .35 cal and larger for "Primitive" gun season.  Try and find a 45-70, 444, 35 Rem, 35 Whelen, or 38-55 from Nov to Feb in MS/LA and you are in for a long hunt.  I will admit "Prairie Dog" guns are not popular around here, but neither are Prairie Dogs. 
I really hate seeing "Big Green" chase the "Big Green" to the point of bypassing the H&R.  IMHO I feel they should increase their marketing and presentation of their brands Rem, Marlin, H&R with equal fervor.  Companion guns of different capacities in same or similar calibers open up alot of room to explore with hunters, target shooters, and handloaders.  Maybe I am just biased, but it makes since to me
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Offline cowboyup453

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 04:54:29 PM »
Quote
a handgun is a revolver in my house
Im glad Im not the only one. ;) ;D

Offline wralyn

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2012, 09:44:25 PM »
At 38, I'm not sure if I'm considered old or young. I love blowing off a couple of boxes of 9mm on the weekends, but last weekend I took my new to me 223 UV out with 26 rounds in hand. There was something peaceful about taking my time between shots. It took an eternity to shoot $8.00 worth of ammo. I bought it with intentions of getting a 357 fitted and reamed to Max. Should I be concerned about them doing away with the barrel accessory program.

Offline rong

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2012, 11:47:50 PM »
I just sent in my Handi rifle for a used barrel fit
and the purchase  of another barrel (223 bull).
I asked the people to do a trigger job
to lighten the pull.
I was told Remington frowns on trigger jobs unless
it is done to return the trigger to factory specs :-[
ron

Offline Darreld Walton

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 01:34:26 AM »
Doesn't the parent company also own a big chunk of S&W and one of the 'big' AR platform rifle builders?  Those Remington AR's don't come out of Ilion!
I wouldn't look for the H&R's to be around in a few years.  Remember when Charles Daly brought in the Zastava bolt guns, and Remington had that cheap lump-o-junk cheapie that they couldn't sell?  They bought up the line of Mausers, put 'em in their own stocks, marked them 798 and 799, and then dumped the line a couple years later.  The Mausers, as well as the "inexpensive" Russian and Turkish shotguns, and the long rumored, but never produced double rifle, all went in the crapper after "Big Green" took them on.  I have to seriously wonder if it all wasn't just a move to eliminate competition, and also have to think that the same will eventually happen to anything in the H&R and Marlin lines that cut into Remington's line.  Think Marlin and H&R .22's and shotguns.
Big Green's stewardship of the "budget" lines hasn't been especially wonderful. 
But then, I've been wrong about things before..........
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Offline Shu

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 02:13:37 AM »
I am an old guy, I got no prejudice against the AR platform. I prefer a single shot rifle over a semi auto becuase when I hunt it makes me a better shooter. I prefer a revolver as a handgun. My shotgun is an older side by side. There are still a few of us out there who still shoot bows. I suppose we all need to turn to Nobel (dynamite) fishing instead of a fly or spinner.
If you want an AR platform great but please don't think we all do... Hello Remington can you hear me yet?

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 04:14:32 AM »
Hate to say it but I have never been fond of Remington products.
Never cared for their guns except the old Rolling blocks and the Remington model 30S EXPRESS which wasn't their design to begin with.
Had several bad experiences with Rem ammo back in the late 60s early 70s and have never really gotten over it.
I know their ammo has come along way but once burned...
I don't think I will ever send a H&R/NEF back to the mfg for any type of service because of the way Rem choses to handle that part of their business.
I would just dump it before catering to their whims!
I know that thousands, maybe millions of shooters have had great experiences with Remington and their products and I am not trying to convince anyone other wise.
I, for one am not one of them.
Just happened to be my experiences with them.
The same could have happened to any other brand I have owned over the years.
I just like Chevys, Pepsi, Subway ect...
Regardless to whatever Rem does with H&R in the future I will always have an H&R collection of some sort.
They can't change that.
IMO the worst thing a company can do in down times is cut back on CS, raise prices to try and make up for lost sales, drop product lines when they have proven to be profitable with a large following, or to cheapen a product, again in an attempt to maintain profits at the expense of customer satisfaction.
Any one of the above can spell disaster for a company that is already having problems in a down economy.
I agree with silver surfer that Remington should increase their marketing and presentation of their brands Rem, Marlin, H&R and TC with equal fervor, provided that those brands are profitable, which we all know they are or they would have been gone long ago!
 
I also am an old school type of guy.
Yes I own a "black rifle" because the law says I can.
I own and use semi auto guns from time to time but I prefer single shots, bolt guns and wheel guns.
I still buy some factory ammo and yes I still reload.
Everything stated above has it's place and reason to me.
Not all will agree with those statements and that is fine and maybe even correct on their part.
I can only go on the experiences I have had in the world so far, but I am always open to other avenues!!!
Just my thoughts on the OP and its responces.
 
 
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 04:38:09 AM »
I just sent in my Handi rifle for a used barrel fit
and the purchase  of another barrel (223 bull).
I asked the people to do a trigger job
to lighten the pull.
I was told Remington frowns on trigger jobs unless
it is done to return the trigger to factory specs :-[
ron

See Ilion's trigger policy in the FAQs, they still do them and quite well.  ;)

Tim
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 05:55:44 AM »
You folks might want to read the Remington Consolidation Plan thread, at that time H&R managers stated they would be trimming the product line to what sells best to survive the recession.

Tim

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Offline demented

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2012, 06:05:52 AM »
 Polite way of saying they're gonna sell what they want us to buy, whether we want it or not. 

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2012, 06:09:29 AM »
From every thing I have read, gun sales are up - way up, despite the recession. I think there were new records set at Christmas on new gun sales.


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Offline hoytcanon

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2012, 08:33:55 AM »
From every thing I have read, gun sales are up - way up, despite the recession. I think there were new records set at Christmas on new gun sales.

That may be but the SHOT Show rep was more open than you would think he would be about the pinch that H&R is feeling... the past two years have been rough and they are streamlining... a small company might ride out a recession on credit and integrity, but for Big Green, it will be about the bottom line... the folks around the Green Round table are not gun enthusiasts,  they are "suits." Suits like cash flow and black ink... lets hope that our beloved H&R tightens-up and sees a good year in gun sales... if they make it through, they can always expand later... here's hoping!
Hoyt Handi's; Ultra Black .22 K-Hornet Shorty, Black Synthetic K-Hornet Shorty & Nickel .410 Combo (sons), Ultra Granite Grey .22 BR Rem, Ultra Nutmeg .223 & .30/30 Shorty Combo (sons), Ultra Forest .223/7mm-08 Shorty Combo, Ultra Forest .243/.308 Combo, Ultra Nutmeg .243/.308 Combo (sons),  Jacaranda/Cocobolo .30/30 & 7.62X39 Shorty Combo, Ultra Black/Stainless .260 Rem Stub, Ultra Black/Stainless .338 Federal Stub,  Ultra Grey .358 Win, Ultra Grey .35 Whelen, Walnut/Cocobolo Mannlicher .357 MAX, Buffalo Classic Mannlicher .44 Mag Shorties w/NDS-38 peeps (X2; Sons & mine), Ultra Grey Stainless .45/70 & .243 & 20 Gauge Combo, Buffalo Classic 26" .45/70, 9.3X74R Mannlicher, Synthetic Nickel .410 & .30/30 & Versa Pak .22 LR Shorty Combo, Ultra Forest/Cocobolo 12 Gauge 3.5" Turkey; Most scoped with DNZ or Dura Sight one-piece bases and Mueller, Hawke or Nikon scopes... several with Skinner Peeps and Williams Fire Sight ramps.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2012, 12:28:15 PM »
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/guns/2011-smashes-sales-record-guns

If the overall sales of guns are up and the sales for H&R guns are down....doesn't it follow that they MAYBE priced to high? Five years ago I could buy any plain Jane Handi for under $200. I could buy a Shotgun for under $100. Now a run of the mill Handi sells for $300. You can buy a plethora of bolt guns for the same amount of money. One of the appealing things about a Handi rifle to me is it is a single shot rifle, but I know I am in the minority. The regular Joe is going to buy the repeating bolt before a single shot. Another thing that appeals to me about the Handi rifle is it is chambered in a lot of rimmed cases, that I can not get in a bolt gun. Thus my preference for rimmed cases in the Handi rifle. Not that rimless are worthless, just read some of Sourdough's exploits with the 30-06. I can buy a 357 lever or a new model 77 Ruger, but you are not gong to lengthen them out to a Max, or a 44 mag lever to a 445. Just a couple of examples. But for the average guy or gal, that wants a varmint rifle or a big game rifle, it makes more sense to them to plunk their money down on a cheap bolt - same money with a proven accuracy record and a gun that is reloaded when you jack the bolt. There are more getting into the inexpensive bolt field every year, I think Ruger has just joined the fray. Just some thoughts. It is really a shame, but it appears the Handi rifle is getting priced out of reach for the average guy looking for a bargin. 

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Offline DBMJR1

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 01:26:46 PM »
Say Hoyt:  Don't you belong at RFC? :D

I'm really hoping one day to get a H&R in .45-70.   I hope I don't wait too long.

Offline hoytcanon

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2012, 01:29:11 PM »
Say Hoyt:  Don't you belong at RFC? :D
I'm really hoping one day to get a H&R in .45-70.   I hope I don't wait too long.

I would say the same for you partner! As for me... you see, I've got this thing with H&R singles... and this is the place for that! See you back at home.  ;D
Hoyt Handi's; Ultra Black .22 K-Hornet Shorty, Black Synthetic K-Hornet Shorty & Nickel .410 Combo (sons), Ultra Granite Grey .22 BR Rem, Ultra Nutmeg .223 & .30/30 Shorty Combo (sons), Ultra Forest .223/7mm-08 Shorty Combo, Ultra Forest .243/.308 Combo, Ultra Nutmeg .243/.308 Combo (sons),  Jacaranda/Cocobolo .30/30 & 7.62X39 Shorty Combo, Ultra Black/Stainless .260 Rem Stub, Ultra Black/Stainless .338 Federal Stub,  Ultra Grey .358 Win, Ultra Grey .35 Whelen, Walnut/Cocobolo Mannlicher .357 MAX, Buffalo Classic Mannlicher .44 Mag Shorties w/NDS-38 peeps (X2; Sons & mine), Ultra Grey Stainless .45/70 & .243 & 20 Gauge Combo, Buffalo Classic 26" .45/70, 9.3X74R Mannlicher, Synthetic Nickel .410 & .30/30 & Versa Pak .22 LR Shorty Combo, Ultra Forest/Cocobolo 12 Gauge 3.5" Turkey; Most scoped with DNZ or Dura Sight one-piece bases and Mueller, Hawke or Nikon scopes... several with Skinner Peeps and Williams Fire Sight ramps.

Offline Doublebass73

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 03:20:31 PM »
Unfortunately not everyone is like us and thinks that single shots are the coolest things since sliced bread.

The only repeaters I own are revolvers for self defense. Everything else is a single shot. Someday if I have the money I may be tempted to buy a left handed AR-15.
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Offline hunterwinco

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2012, 03:45:16 PM »
Doublebass73...I had to laugh as I read your post.  I too only have revolvers for self defense and 8 differents handis and pardners,  but I did buy a left handed Stag AR and the do shoot VERY well with 60 grain vmaxs. 

Offline mauser98us

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2012, 04:08:20 PM »
Seems like the Topper shotguns would be their bread and butter.Hopefully they don't slim too far down,like go out of business.

Offline rugerfan.64

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 05:06:52 PM »
MS/LA has kept them going strong for a while. I just wish they'd get off their b*** and come on with a 375 Win.

Offline wganz

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 06:12:35 PM »
The unfortunate fact is that money does make the world go round and the money is moving in the direction of AR15's. Interesting factoid is that 1/4 of Remington's ammo production is for .223.

With the price of the lower end bolt actions now dropping below the cost of a HandiRifle, fewer consumers are going to buy a single shot when they can buy a bolt action repeater. So, the H&R division needs to figure out a way to streamline the production of the HandiRifle and get the cost down to where it does appeal to buyers. Plus, they face competition from Rossi and now again from the Baikal line from EAA. I don't envy the H&R product manager at all.

As much as "suits" are maligned, the bottom line is the bottom line. The H&R product line needs to clear a profit if it wants to stay around.

As a result, the calibers that are not selling won't stay. The use of cheaper materials will increase(i.e. synthetic stocks).

Offline manatee1947

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 06:24:24 PM »
I also wish more states would go with the "primitive" season. My 500 with a cast bullet @ about 1350 fps is no great advantage over a ML with 150 gr of BP and a saboted jacketed bullet. These things come in waves though, remember , it has just been a couple of years since the super short, then super big, etc craze. I do worry about a "planned obsolescence " though, part of my normal paranoia.
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 06:52:22 PM »
This is like being  mildly schizophrenic  :o ??? I would really liked to have gotten hold of a TDC in 20ga at some point, and I just bought a set of 300 AAC dies today, so they had better come out with that rifle! On the other hand, if they go under as a division, maybe they will sell it to someone else who will run with it. There are all kinds of upstart semi-custom bolt and AR companies, why not a new Handi? Maybe a medium weight half round- half hexagon 25/35 ? That 375 Winchester that was mentioned. Or even the custom shop selling unchambered barrels. Who knows? They could call it the Phoenix.  ::)
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2012, 03:02:02 AM »
I just took a walk thru of the gun room. For me if they closed the doors tommorro I would still be a happy man. There is nothing that has come out of Illion that I have bought or desired since the move . The last thing I thought was cool and needed was the a 20ga with the ultragon rifling and that was bought during the move so for me anyway the factory stuff has already been dead for yrs. To think that biggreen would do anything exciting is kidding yourself. I was at least hoping they would do some nice walnut stock stuff and put the nice Remington bluing on the H&R but the best they have done was a new tupperware stock set...yeeeeehhaaawwwww. The customer service sucks (not the repair work) but the one hand not knowing what the other has or is doing not to mention folks sitting side by side on the phone not knowing what the person next to them knows. The best thing I have seen come out of Illion since the move is Brian being here to help us out and to at least keep the H&R base happy. My name is PHATINJUN and I am a Handiholic. I will sit and watch now. Kurt
Deceased 2/16/24
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/machesney-park-il/kurt-heckman-11671764

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: H&R a New Slimmer Company...
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2012, 05:37:02 AM »
Take a look at the lastest Firearms Sales and Production stats.

Tim

http://www.shootingindustry.com/u-s-firearms-industry-today/

Quote
ATF’s Annual Data
 
According to the ATF’s 2009 Annual Firearms Manufacturing and Export Report — the latest data available from the agency — U.S. manufacturers produced 5,417,003 firearms, a 29.10-percent increase over 2008. This was the first time the industry produced more than 5-million firearms since 1994, and it was the largest number manufactured since 1980, when 5,645,131 guns were made.
 
Ruger was the number one U.S. firearms manufacturer in 2009 (page 32), outdistancing all other U.S. firearm manufacturers by a significant margin. This was the second year in a row that Ruger achieved the top ranking.
 
In 2009, Ruger manufactured 933,559 firearms, an impressive 55.8-percent increase over 2008. Ruger ranked number one in handgun and rifle production in 2009.
 
“Ruger has a popular brand, strong balance sheet, hardworking, dedicated employees, and an experienced and engaged board of directors. We have a simple but effective strategy: To use new product introductions to spur demand, and to adopt lean methodologies throughout the business to enable us to more efficiently fulfill that demand,” said Mike Fifer, Ruger CEO.
 
In foreign trade, U.S. exports in 2009 decreased 18.33 percent, this after an increase of 22 percent in 2008 (page 38). Smith & Wesson was the top U.S. firearms exporter with 54,692 units exported, a slight increase over 2008.
 
U.S. imports decreased 22.8 percent in 2010 (pages 40, 41, 42), with 2,508,888 firearms imported. Brazil continues to hold the number one importer position with 876,225 firearms imported in 2009 and 697,350 in 2010.
 
2009 U.S. Production
 
In 2009, handgun production increased 32.79 percent over 2008, rifle production increased 28.79 percent and shotgun production increased 19.34 percent.
 
The top U.S. firearms manufacturers in 2009 were:
 • Ruger: 933,559 (+55.8%)
 • Smith & Wesson: 666,670 (+19.42%)
 • Remington Arms: 612,572 (+22.83%).
 
The top handgun manufacturers:
 • Ruger: 572,479 (+70.26%)
 • Smith & Wesson: 556,613 (+7%)
 • SIG SAUER: 216,603 (+75%).
 
The top rifle producers:
 • Ruger: 360,005 (+37.58%)
 • Remington Arms: 288,728 (+79.37%).
 • Marlin Firearms: 269,276 (+35.84%)
 
The top three shotgun companies:
 • Mossberg/Maverick Arms: 374,724
 (+10.24%)
 • Remington Arms: 323,814 (-4.12%)
 • H&R 1871: 46,365 (-19.15%).
 
U.S. Exports, Imports
 The top three U.S. exporters for 2009 were:
 • Smith & Wesson: 54,692 (+1.58%)
 • Mossberg/Maverick Arms: 45,123
 (+8.45%)
 • Ruger: 32,489 (-7.85%).
 
In 2010, the top importers were:
 • Brazil: 697,350 (-20.41%)
 • Austria: 434,371 (-28.19%)
 • Germany: 347,012 (-12%).
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