Sustainable Hunting

[SHOOTALL]

It takes several years to get a garden spot to produce . I have one pastute that is about 3 acres and 2 more about an acre and a half. I can support 2 full sized cows on the 3 ac. with extra hay in winter . Last summer we got little rain and I had to feed all summer . I had a horse 2 cows and a calf in the other ones and had to feed all the year also. The horse eats about twice what the cows do and his hoof is harder on the ground . You will have to replant every couple years . That said what do you do with 8-900 lbs of meat at one time ? Better to raise chickens , rabbits , goats and hogs . With hogs they can run free if you have a place for it. One cow would not be so bad as you can feed leaves in a bind.
 If you live near anyone else you won't be able to hide anything well.

[vacek]

There are a lot of misconceptions out their.  In the type of situation I think is being discussed, there will be a mix of technology still available primitive to modern which is similar in what you find in developing countries.  These places are more tribal / neighborhood oriented with different individuals contributing with their specilized skills.  I really don't believe in the rugged survivalist individual on his own or even with a few.  Those who make it long term will be tribaled up in some community that has a combination of some urban and rural inputs.  That being said, if it really goes down hill the most prolific protein will be all the non feral domesticated animals no longer being cared for.  Look how quickly cattle proliferated feral in Texas after Coronado went through and lost some livestock. They were all over the place within a few centuries.  We know from the last century that large game quickly diminishes under non-controlled hunting.

While the movie Postman wasn't real popular the concept of rural enclave communities is probably fairly sound.

[Lloyd Smale]

gardens will be a nessisary thing but keep in mind that it takes 3 months of summer time to get anything from them. So i shtf in the middle of the winter youll have a long wait to eat anything from them. I just read a post on another fourm about what a man needs to survive and the gun said that we need meat! Theres vitamans and fat in meat that cant be found anywhere else. He also said that some leaner game animals like rabbits dont provide it. So part of any survival package will have to include vitiman supplements. I know some are thinking they know some yuppy thats a vegetarian but id about bet those yuppys consume as many vitaman pills as they do lettuce. One other thing to keep in mind is alot of senerios will have livestock and even wild game dieing off from starvation too and some will involve the ground or weather not making farming veggys an option. Bottom line is a guy can really be prepared for everything that could happen and long term survial in many instances just isnt going to happen. I look more at short term survial. I keep a pantry full of canned meat and potatoes. try to keep lots of canned food on hand along some rice and beans and lots of ammo! I like to think i can make it at least 3-6 months with what i have. Firguring on what a family of three will need for food, medical supplys tolietrys ect. just the idea of having enough for more then that is staggering in cost and storage. Just keep in mind when your figuring out how much ammo you need to add three rounds for a family of three. Your Probably going to eventually need them

[vacek]

I guess I'm not worrying too much about a lot of livestock starving.  Sure there will be some, but if the huge proliferation of feral hogs in the south and southwest, the feral chickens in Hawaii are any indication of their survavability then I'm not too worried.  Cattle are ruminents and are able to convert a lot of typically useless plant fibver directly into protein and energy.   And by evolution they are large enough to protect themselves from a lot of natural predation after a certain age.  I live in Colorado now, even though I grew up farming and ranching in Texas / Oklahoma.  I am amazed how well newborne calves are hidden by their mothers in the foothills and lower mountains as they free graze.  They learn and adapt quick.

[blind ear]

Hunt and eat the preadators first. Gives the chickens and rabbits and deer a better chance. ear

[SHOOTALL]

With a population of 300000000 being forced to go wild in their eating habits I doubt any wild animal wil survive long. For proof just look at the fact that there are more game animals today than when America was settled and there were not that many hungry folks here then .

[no guns here]

I'm just rambling here.  Sort of a stream of consciousness ramble.  Bear with me.  300,000,000 aren't going to go wild in their eating habits.  A large percentage of those 330 mil live in large cities.  In some catastrophic event, many of those will never leave that urban jungle they live in currently.  They won't be able to travel.  Lack of transportation, fuel etc will doom them to an animal’s life there.  Game was killed off in the 1800 due in large part to market hunting.  In the envisioned situation, market hunting wouldn't be a factor due to lack of refrigeration and transportation.  Feral animals are proven to be adaptable and survivors.  Wild pig will continue to explode in population.  Cattle will proliferate in many areas.  Texas and the southwest have proven to be a haven for the longhorn type cattle.  Disease, starvation and fighting will kill off large percentage the people in North America.  Most of the marginal living areas will see a huge drop in population with the first 18 months.  For example, interior Alaska would be mostly depopulated within 18 months.  Most folks wouldn't make it through the first winter, then how many of those left would make it through a second winter?  Game would quickly rebound there.   Without power, there is little refrigeration.  So the hottest areas of the country would lose population quickly as well.  Lack of long term food storage would be a big factor here as well.  There are large portions of the plains states that actually meet the definition of "wilderness" due to lack of population right now.  Those areas will only become less populated.  Areas with a fairly rural population with a high percentage of hunters and gun owners will probably see a quick decrease in game.  Think about places like Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama.  Lots of folks there with ability to kill game close to home without travelling.  The game in eastern Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota for example won't be hunted out because the distances from the major population areas are too great for people who are already hungry and without transportation.  The first two months would see a big kill off of game in areas close to major population centers.  The most rural areas, National Parks, BLM land, etc would actually probably see a boom in game animals.  Too remote for large numbers of folks to get to for subsistence hunting.  I think if the power went out today and never came back on then in 100 years there would be untold numbers of wild pigs, wild cattle and other large game.  The bison would come back eventually also.  Fences would rust and fall and no longer divide the plains after about the 30 years.   What’s weird is the “exotics” held in many places in Texas and other areas would also be set free and would then be part of the ecosystem here.  The Nilgai would fair well.  Impala and others like that would too.  I think the hardest part would be to make it past the first 18 months.   If you could do that, you would probably be set for the most part.  The first two months would be rough.  Large die offs of people.  Large numbers of people scavenging and looking for food anywhere and everywhere.   After the first winter, the number of survivors would plummet.  Roving bands of marauders and “warriors” would probably be in existence at that point.  But there wouldn’t be much reason for them to come to areas without large numbers of weaker survivors for them to prey on.  Staying hidden and out of site would be the key.  If you couldn’t be seen from the road and had no lights or smoke to attract attention then you might be okay.


NGH

[SHOOTALL]

I would expect market hunting to come back in vogue !
I agree many would die but not all . In the history of humand they move to find food and this will be no differen't for survivers. Say 2/3's die in the first year . That's still a lot of mouths left to feed.
 And just asking what would life be like or for if all you did was hide only to die unnoticed in old age ?

[hillbill]

yuall remember the great depression?i wasnt there but my gparents were and they pretty much filled me in on it.the rural people pretty much wiped out any sign of game in a few years to fill the larder.ever wonder why all the restocking programs in the 70's and 80's for turkey and whitetail?according to them they shot everything edible and some things yu wouldnt consider edible to eat.in the 50"s and sixty's a deer or turkey was a rare sight where i live.even as late as the 80's a deer sighting was talked about.when i started deer hunting in the 80's i thought myself lucky to see 3 deer of any kind in a week long season.when people get hungry the game population will suffer.ive seen the cycles over the years, when beef is cheap you wont see that many hunters in the woods,when its high, yu will see more hunters.protein comes at a price.during and after the depression this was a much kinder and gentler nation.what we have now is different.much different.the game wont last but a few years and then only if yu defend your territory with violence.farming will be your only choice to survive and then only if yu can defend your position with plenty of well armed sons.

[mechanic]

My grandpa would eat robins and red wing blackbirds as quickly as quail.  He said there was a time when it was all he could get as fresh meat.  With the millions we have now, there is no way wild game would sustain them.  Of course, only a minute fraction can hunt.  The rest would starve waiting on the government to feed them anyway.

Ben

[SHOOTALL]

my grandfather was a market hunter in the 30's and 40's . he had to be careful to leave enough birds , rabbits etc to restock for the next season . Wonder if people will have that much sense ?

[Pat/Rick]

my grandfather was a market hunter in the 30's and 40's . he had to be careful to leave enough birds , rabbits etc to restock for the next season . Wonder if people will have that much sense ?

I doubt they will. Game will get thinner as time goes. as mentioned, a few thousand folks wandering to better hunting grounds will eventually overlap where others have been.  Then, they'll hear or see a chicken coop and instead of stealing the eggs for protein, they'll take the chicken, eat it and wish they had an egg the next day and after.

[Shu]

How aboput wild turkeys thrown into the dinner mix. I visited pops last fall they were everywhere. We saw flocks of 10 -100. There was plenty of white tailed deer also.
If a hunter only harvests what he NEEDs he should be able to go for some time.

Pops has a large garden and a creek. If he don't shut the garage doors at night it will be filled with wild turkeys.

[Empty Quiver]

Sustainable for me or my entire line? With a bit of frugality I'm at sustainable for my expected life.

I have a hundred rounds for the 300 mag and better than a thousand .223 add about a hundred 45/70 cartridges, and the means to reload every case about twice and I'm more than covered. Honestly, the rest of my family would be hard pressed to burn all that ammo strictly hunting.

I have three bows and nowhere near enough arrows. I do have the knowledge to make and repair those but not the desire at this time.  My shoulder hurts enough that my archery days seem numbered, a job change would likely help that though.

If I have to go muzzleloader I just as well use the 45/70 as a BPC. I don't have any flintlocks, nor do I want any to be honest.

[teamnelson]

If I have to go muzzleloader I just as well use the 45/70 as a BPC.

I think that there is an idea with some merit ... apart from flintlock, all BPs require a primer. If you're gonna stock primers, might as well stock rifle primers for your 45/70. After that BP is BP and lead is lead. You could do the same with a .357, .44 or .45 rifle just as easily if you had to.

[mechanic]

If I have to go muzzleloader I just as well use the 45/70 as a BPC.

I think that there is an idea with some merit ... apart from flintlock, all BPs require a primer. If you're gonna stock primers, might as well stock rifle primers for your 45/70. After that BP is BP and lead is lead. You could do the same with a .357, .44 or .45 rifle just as easily if you had to.

Thats why I own Lee Loaders........

Ben

[SHOOTALL]

In the end a shotgun may be best. You can use most pistol powder from most any round you find. You can use alot of materials for wads . You can use alot of things as projectiles even the bullets you salvaged the powder from. Knock old primers out with a nail or punch seat new ones with a dowel and recrimp with a dowel of correct size . Andd a few chamber adapters and you can shoot most any shell you find. A true double trigger SXS or O/U would be two seperate guns in one adding extra insurance.

[Shu]

12 guage double or single shot, excellent point. Plastic shells last forever almost and you can get fairly creative with the reloading. There really isn't any gun as versatile.

[bilmac]

I would dispute that. As far as reloading versitility, What about wads? I haven't tried it but I bet that stuffing a bunch of paper as a wad would give unpredictable and enemic loads. I guy would at least need a good over powder wad.  On the other hand a straight wall case shot in a single shot rifle could be loaded almost as easily as the shotgun. Replace the primer, powder it and slip in a bullet. If the bullet wouldn't stay in place from friction, the case wall could be dented with a light punch strike to hold the whole thing together. Only difference a guy would need lead and a bullet mold.

As far as the versitility of the shotgun itself, how versitile is a gun that has such limited range. With the very best shells a shotgun is effective to maybe 80 yds, inside say 12 yds there is no advantage over a rifle because the pattern is essentially bullet size. About 70 yds of good usable range. A 357 with good ammo will give you a pretty good chance of a hit over say 150 or 200 yds.

With "field expedient ammo a shotgun might give sickly hits out to 30 yds, a 357 with "field expedient loads maybe 40 to 75 yds depending on the quality of bullet.

A 357 would use just as wide a variety of powders, but use way less.

[SHOOTALL]

Leather, cardboard plastic etc could be fashoned into wads in a pinch . But a stright wall case would work also . Ifblack powder was used the wad may not be so critical.

[Pat/Rick]

Shootall, that makes sense. Could load shotshells without a press, just cut the crimped part off and glue a waxed card top in the shell. Backwoodsman had an article titled the two dollar shotshell loader or something like that and it talked about loading with just a few holes in a block of wood, in the fashion mentioned.  A good publication the backwoodsman is.

During the latest ammo shortages,I took the time to stock up on powder and caps when I couldn't find a particular fglavor of ammo or components.

As well, the older origionally designed for BP cartridges may offer a very good long term answer. definently merits for each.

[Rex in OTZ]

many states useing tax dollars have a hard time manageing sustainable hunting populations they issue permits limiting what to harvest so the population is stable and sustainable, by removeing those controls the supply of wildlife would be quickly depleated, how is a single person going to manage a sustainable 'harvestable' population of wild free rangeing critters?, dont see that happening, how can somebody control wildlife? domesticated livestock is the only way, means blood sweat and tears of hard work, contending with weather Blizzards/Drought, disease, provideing fodder.

Wild animals move round, this requires moving too, that means a subsistance hunter/gatherer type lifestyle, eating stuff we scoff at today.

[hillbill]

That sounds nice ... also sounds like years and years of preparation to get it there, no job commitment, a good grub stake, and more than one 15 yo boy to help out. Alot like the settlers, and that's all they had on their plate. And a lot of them were farmers before they moved west.

it actually does involve years of prep.its what you do to protect your family and loved ones.and yourself.not everyone can do it considering the circumstances.it doesnt take a lot of money, but yu have to work hard and have the the skills.if yu build everything from scratch its dirt cheep.but to move from the city life right into a country situation is hard.yu almost have to be raised into it and obtain the knowledge from your parents for free.

[Shu]

The advantage of the 12 guage- any pistol powder or black powder, wads -cardboard, plastic, leather, cloth, shot- anything that will fit in the bore, nuts, bolts, nails, pebbles, rocks, used bullets etc.
Assuming of coarse you have primers. Hunting situations from dove to large bear if on North American continent.

Straight walled pistol or rifle case- any powder ( velocity may suffer), shot- anything that will fit in bore limited by caliber, (a 357 does dont have much of a shot column), if you have plenty of lead and a mold you are good to go.
Hunting situations could be limted, flying game would have to be shot on the ground.

Both cases have merit but the 12 guage is still more versatile.

Personnaly I'll take the 12 guage and a nice straight walled rifle/pistol case. I really hate to think I would only own 1 gun.

Where I plan on living, the largest game is whitetail deer, plenty of wild turkey and upland game. A straight walled rifle case would do me fine.

[vacek]

To really understand what "that future we are discussing" would look like once the initial chaos has settled in is to look how "peasants / farmers" have evolved their livestyles in developing countries.  Cattle are eventually relegated to labor with primary sources of protein being fish (wild and domesticated), ducks, geese and chickens.  Poultry are very efficient at eating whatever and thriving.  It wouldn't take very long for the lone hunter to go hungry no matter how good they are with guns and snares.  Again, its best to tribal up in a close knit rural community with a deep well water supply that can be obtained, skilled persons including medical, plumbing, electrical, farming, ranching, etc.  We all kinda fantasize about living off the land indefinetely but it just ain't gonna happen that way.

[hillbill]

To really understand what "that future we are discussing" would look like once the initial chaos has settled in is to look how "peasants / farmers" have evolved their livestyles in developing countries.  Cattle are eventually relegated to labor with primary sources of protein being fish (wild and domesticated), ducks, geese and chickens.  Poultry are very efficient at eating whatever and thriving.  It wouldn't take very long for the lone hunter to go hungry no matter how good they are with guns and snares.  Again, its best to tribal up in a close knit rural community with a deep well water supply that can be obtained, skilled persons including medical, plumbing, electrical, farming, ranching, etc.  We all kinda fantasize about living off the land indefinetely but it just ain't gonna happen that way.

he really is a killjoy but vacek is probably correct.unless there is a serious depopulation. primitive farming without chemicals and commercial fertilizer will barely support those who are doing it and maybe their extended family.years ago a old man stopped by my house and told me he used to live where i did.he was prob 90 yrs old.during our conversation of a hr or so.i asked him if he ever fished in the creek behind my house.his response was HELL BOY, WE WAS FARMING 80 ACRES WITH HORSES, WE DIDNT HAVE ANY TIME FOR FISHING! very emphaticlly, that will tell yu a lot right there.very few people are up to what it would take to survive without outside help.the only way i see that country people could survive in the impending chaos is to be so strong and well armed that the "have nots" could not penetrate your circle of life.

[mcwoodduck]

I think a combination of them.
Set out snares and traps for small game that does not move and check your trap lines daily.
Bow and arrows.  Arrows are reusable and a few spare parts for the bow will keep it going for years.
And stock piling ammo can not hurt for larger game and birds that migrate through your area or are pushed there by other hunters.
As others said fish and gardens.  many of the small game will come out of protecting the garden from rabbits, racoons, opossium, and deer.  Not to mention birds.
All the small game can be eaten fresh for the day and the deer dried as Jerkey for later use or days nothing is found.
The American Indians and the Africans use fish traps as well.  Snares and traps are off hunting while you are doing something else.
I think planning for a hunting and gathering lifestyle.  i would use that to supplament a farm.  Not become nomadic.
I would learn the bow, stock pile parts, arrows, and heads.
I would keep a shotgun and learn how to reload. Simple Mec Jr works for all loads.
I would keep a hi power rifle for the largest game and preditors
Small game rifle to gather rabbits and squirrels.  22 LR with a few thousand bullets would last a very long time.
and Buy and learn a black powder gun.  Mountain men stayed with the flint lock long after caps were the norm else where because they could dry their powder if it got wet.  water ruined the caps.  If I were to have a black powder gun as a sole source of food it would be either a 69 or 75 caliber smooth bore-  Accurate to 75 yards and can be used as either a single projectile or multiple (shotgun) 69 is basically a 16 ga and 75 is inbetween a 10 (.775) and 12 ga (.729).
Making black powder is trickey.  We almost lost the revolution because we did not have powder mills that produced suficcient powders to launch projectiles from muskets.  While the stuff you made in Jr high science class was Black powder it was not strong stuff.  Yo also have moisture to deal with on a daily basis.  Remember the stories of Wild Bill unloading and reloading his Colt navies every day as the night air was damp and the powder could have fouled.
Learn to garden.  stock pile some seeds of items that grow in your area with the rain fall you normally get. (rice is not going to grow in the desert)  Plant a wide variety of food stocks - a blight or bug that kills peas and potatoes could kill you if you only plant peas and potatoes.
After all there is a reason why farmering communities life spans are longer than nomadic hunter gatherers.  More variety of diet, more calories, better access to clean water.  Wells and cisterns work better than streams for water.  you don't know what is in the water a few yards up the stream from you.  Everytime a mule sees a stream he drinks from it and poops in it.
Looking to have some live stock too is not a bad idea.  Chickens - with eggs and it takes little grain to make a pound of chicken and grass makes beef and sheep, that make milk and chees is storable, but it takes the same amount of food to make a pig as it does to make a person. So bacon is probably out in a survival situation.  Well the pig is the first to be cured into bacon and ham if you have one before a problem arises.
i too would learn Charcuterie (spelling - but the making of cured meats and sausage)  Have a plan for Salt.  In Hawaii not a big problem but sea salt of some form is needed in curing foods.  Slabs of salt are cheap.  can be kept for years like a brick and can be chipped and ground as needed.  Simple distalation can make the salt.  Dump a cup of sea water in a bucket every day and leave it in the sun.  So I quess a clean plastic bucket to make salt.  For curing and making cheese.

[Lloyd Smale]

sat down with my grandpa one day and talked about the hunting when he was young. He said about the same thing. There was no time to take a walk in the woods to hunt other then in the dead of winter and even then they had for the most part a full day of making wood and tending to animals. He said most of the game they ater came from his ma shooting what happened to come into the yard or by himself and his father shooting animals that showed up in the field while they were working or in the woods when they were cutting wood. Keep in mind that even making up your firewood would take many many hours of work if all you had is a cross cut saw and an axe if gas wasnt available for your chain saw. Most of us here including myself are probalby to old and to soft to keep themselves fed and warm alone.

To really understand what "that future we are discussing" would look like once the initial chaos has settled in is to look how "peasants / farmers" have evolved their livestyles in developing countries.  Cattle are eventually relegated to labor with primary sources of protein being fish (wild and domesticated), ducks, geese and chickens.  Poultry are very efficient at eating whatever and thriving.  It wouldn't take very long for the lone hunter to go hungry no matter how good they are with guns and snares.  Again, its best to tribal up in a close knit rural community with a deep well water supply that can be obtained, skilled persons including medical, plumbing, electrical, farming, ranching, etc.  We all kinda fantasize about living off the land indefinetely but it just ain't gonna happen that way.

he really is a killjoy but vacek is probably correct.unless there is a serious depopulation. primitive farming without chemicals and commercial fertilizer will barely support those who are doing it and maybe their extended family.years ago a old man stopped by my house and told me he used to live where i did.he was prob 90 yrs old.during our conversation of a hr or so.i asked him if he ever fished in the creek behind my house.his response was HELL BOY, WE WAS FARMING 80 ACRES WITH HORSES, WE DIDNT HAVE ANY TIME FOR FISHING! very emphaticlly, that will tell yu a lot right there.very few people are up to what it would take to survive without outside help.the only way i see that country people could survive in the impending chaos is to be so strong and well armed that the "have nots" could not penetrate your circle of life.

[Shu]

Excellent points!!

I also am a kiljoy on this. I think a more realistic scenario would not be gangs of thugs roving about. I think sustainable hunting is more for the guy that can get fuel/electricity etc. A natural disaster could mean a person loses water and power for a week or so this is more realistic.

A large garden, some chickens, pigs and cows. Hunt deer, squirel, rabbits, upland game birds, wild turkeys and any other local flavor of wild beast. The ability to sit in front of the fire on a cold winter day with a cup of coffee and tell my grandkids how tough it was back in the day sounds pretty good to me.

[vacek]

Good Morning Fellow Greybeards.... Kiljoy here .

In a thread I started last fall on "The Worst Hard Time" the posts were regarding what actually happened  in the Great Plains when a combination of the depression, low ag prices and drought hit at once.  10 years of it really hitting the fan.  It wasn't pretty and those of us who had parents that grew up in the Dust Bowl had it drilled into us how tough an unadventurous it was.  I still recommend this as one of the top books to read to understand what happens to people and society when it really gets bad.  Any book about citizens in the war hit countries of WW2 is also truly a learning session.  Point being, 70 years ago society was a lot closer and adapted to a labor based society than today, and they still had it tough. 

Knowing I am being redundant, but spending your time, money and energy figuring out how you will "stand alone" is a waste.  Start figuring out how you are going to get through the first hit, subsequent 2-3 weeks of total crazy and then end up somewhere with a fairly large group (1000+) of persons in a sustainable rural community.