Sustainable Hunting

[teamnelson]

What would a hunter who is trying to live a sustainable lifestyle do? Would they:
- stockpile ammo.
- stockpile reloading materials.
- maybe cast their own bullets, but have to put away powder and primers.
... are those really in the spirit of "sustainability" though? I mean living off the grid implies the ability to make, grow or supply for yourself. Stockpiling is a good survival plan, but not truly sustainable per se.

Would they:
- hunt with a flintlock, learn how to make their own BP and cast ball?
- hunt with a bow, learn how to make their own bows, arrows, strings, tips, fletching?
- learn how to trap, and how to make their own snares, traps, etc.?

[DCT]

In the beginning a stockpile of ammo is probably going to be the norm, but a person will probably shift to traps,snares and the ability to hunt without noise and using up a lot of time. Setting snares and traps and then doing other chores, cutting wood, shelter maintaince and maybe some sort of farming will be a better use of time.

[charles p]

I'd also plant a garden.

[hillbill]

to me traps and snares are the most effecient way to fill the larder,they hunt while your busy doing other things.a small stockpile of ammo would last a long time. even if you shot once a day thats only about 30 shells a month.a dozen steel traps and some snare wire and cable would last for years.i would think tho that a large family could easily eat itself out of about 500 acres of flora and fauna in about a year.some domestic agriculture might be a better way to feed yourself.if you were going to live off just wildlife id expect you would have to move often just as the american indian did.

[teamnelson]

if you were going to live off just wildlife id expect you would have to move often just as the american indian did.

I've thought the same myself. When the stockpiles are out, if you don't have a farm & livestock, you'll be moving.

I've also thought that sustainable hunting would be more about small game than deer or bigger. Since sustainable food storage may not involve refrigeration.

[pastorp]

A person would need to jar or can his meet & vegetables to keep. A spring house or root cellar will work for some things. The size of the game really dosent matter if your canning it.

No property will take the hunting pressure necessary to feed a family unless it is really large. I think a garden, along with raising some livestock along with hunting, trapping, snaring would be the best plan. A diverse plan is best IMO.

Regards,

[bilmac]

If a guy was just taking a rabbit maybe every 3 days, and he was in good habitat. and was the only one hunting it, I would think  that about a section [square mile] of land might produce enough to be sustainable. I'm thinking a rabbit every 3 days would be far from enough food for 1 or 2 people, but it would provide some meat to eat with a largely vegetable diet from a garden.

I suppose snares would be the most efficient way to take them, but kind of an uncontrollable thing. You set 3 or 4 snares and one time you catch 3 or 4 rabbits next time you catch 0. Go out with a rifle and most times you bring home the one rabbit you want.Also taking a walk with a rifle is a good thing to keep track of what's going on in your surroundings, patrolling, as well as taking advantage of targets of opportunity like an occasional deer.

[bilmac]

I'm doing this in 2 posts because the computer shuts me off if I take too long. I would think that a guy could calculate how many bullets it would take him to last a life time and it wouldn't be a huge number of 22s. I don't think I would go rimfire though. I think I would go with a 38 - 357, probably a Marlin, doubles as self defense gun. Again calculate what a lifetime of components would amount to. I suppose I would just have cast bullets already made it would be pretty unlikely to recover many to recast.

If I had kids I would be training them to shoot homemade bows.

[teamnelson]

If I had kids I would be training them to shoot homemade bows.

Is that because you'd be thinking you'd be out of ammo by the time they were grown and self-feeding? I think about stuff like that too. What about multi-generational survival ... I've been a few places where just a couple decades ago, life was good, but the generation born after the revolution what have you are in the 3rd world making do, turning Grandpas car into a donkey cart.

[bilmac]

Isn't that the truth. Who would'a thunk what happened to the Soviet Union almost overnight, of course they never had a high standard of living. I'm sure you believe in the rapture as I do, but the scary thing is that I don't see the USof A anywhere in end times prophecy. To me that says that there is no USofA at that time.

[jlwilliams]

  There are a few levels of discussion to your original post.  It could go any number of ways.

  First, as already stated, it's tough to sustain ones family on hunting alone.  For a large segment of human history we've grown food and hunting was bonus food.  I think it's safe to keep that as a working model.

  As far as sustainability in regards to hunting weapon selectin, you make some good points.  If the goal is compleat self reliance you are looking at traps and home made primative weapons.  In the mean time, why not use what is available now.

  I have never really been into archery, but I'm starting to come around.  My wife (who has a bow and would like to shoot it more) and I have agreed that our son (just turned 6) should get a good basis in archery before I turn him into a rifle nut.  Partly because we can shoot arrows in the back yard.  Partly because it's something she can enjoy with him since she isn't really into guns much.  And partly because I see archery as the viable method of hunting as we move into the future.  I see what you mean about long term post-collapse hunting and forraging.  My perspective is that even without a major change in our way of life, firearm hunting is getting more restricted and archery only areas are fast replacing all other hunting areas.  With guns becoming more restricted in general, I see a good basis in archery starting early in life as an insurance that he will always have some access to a lethal weapon.  As he grows a little, I plan on doing some home made bow and arrow projects with him.  Maybe start with a simple recurve, move onto a simple crossbow, and see where it goes from there.  I think that sort of experience will do him well regardless of if the fan gets soiled or not.

[SHOOTALL]

Sustainable hunting would be illegal in most places in America today except for a few native tribe people or certian states under speical conditions. I would think a 22 RF with a slincer would be best. It would offer the easiest way to stock pile ammo , consider if you toted 2 bricks of ammo and used 2 bullets a day to gather food. That would last you well over a year, add a few hide out stashes and you could go for years. The ammo would need protecting as the heel bullet is not so good of a seal. In bad times a gun shot will be a dinner bell for those who hear it . In a crisis that was world wide all big game and domestic animals would be gone in a few days . America alone has 300 million people to feed. The small animals would be the best choice , not just game critters but rats , dog , cats etc. Many will die leaving their guns and ammo.
 I would ask how long other nations wold allow a area of the world with resources like found here to go un invaded when the chips were down.
 Along with snares and traps I would have a large supply of line and hooks and a net . Maybe a spear point or two.

[teamnelson]

Shootall, keeping fishing gear around makes sense like you said. Learning how to make a net would be a good sustainable skill. We've also got a couple 6' hawaiian pole spears that are designed for spearfishing but have worked on frogs. Its gonna be the small critters that keep us fed, IMO. And I think you're correct that for many in the world the north american land mass is viewed as a gold mine.

[teamnelson]

As far as sustainability in regards to hunting weapon selectin, you make some good points.  If the goal is compleat self reliance you are looking at traps and home made primative weapons.  In the mean time, why not use what is available now.

I agree; in the mean time, stockpiling of ammo, or reloading components makes sense as restrictions continue and availability may diminish. Folks talk about the ideal survival weapon as one that uses ammo available at Wal-Mart ... unless the survival scenario involves there being no Wal-Mart. But that's still in the short term. Sustainability of course goes on without wal-mart.

I too am returning to archery at this very moment in fact, and hopefully get my son (who is a Junior in HS) into it enough that we'll try our hands at bowhunting next year when we move to VA. From there I'd like to learn bow & arrow making ... again, with an eye on primitive skills that ensure a sustainable capacity to hunt. Glad to be thinking of it now, than trying to figure it out from a book by candlelight later.

[SHOOTALL]

I would venture to guess that Wally world and most other stores will be empty the next day .

[Hit or Miss]

There will be no sustainable hunting without a massive population die off in this country in a fan situation.  Vegetable gardens will provide important variety and nutrients to our diets but grains and legumes will be our main source of calories.  Better learn how to farm!  Yes, it's harsh!

[mechanic]

There will be no sustainable hunting without a massive population die off in this country in a fan situation.  Vegetable gardens will provide important variety and nutrients to our diets but grains and legumes will be our main source of calories.  Better learn how to farm!  Yes, it's harsh!

Spot on.  There are not enough "critters" around to feed millions of people for very long.  In a short period some would be eating each other........

[teamnelson]

There will be no sustainable hunting without a massive population die off in this country in a fan situation.  Vegetable gardens will provide important variety and nutrients to our diets but grains and legumes will be our main source of calories.  Better learn how to farm!  Yes, it's harsh!

Absolutely right, farming will be vital. Consider my original question as simply discussing only one aspect of sustainable living specifically, and that is hunting.

[Torwe]

Being a realist I do not think a person could or would be able to survive on hunting unless they were somewhere like Alaska. I think myself people could survive quite a bit better with fishing as the focus of self sustainability because there aint gonna be enough critters running around to feed everybody. Just my thoughts.

[Couger]

If I knew where my family and I needed to live after a SHTF crunch, I'd look to plant some (VERY hearty) fruit trees that might hopefully go unnoticed in a "semi wild" setting in woods nearby (wanna bet any starving mobs would just help themselves if they were "starving" when fruit came on!!??).

Same with any "wild gardens" I might try to plant and cultivate as well - not unlike the food plots sportsmen grow to suppliment local deer populations!  Concentrating on things like potatos, turnips, tuber or vine-type vegies (squash for ex).

Also locating local pigeon populations and setting those flocks up to be "wild and self-sustaining," yet so the young [squabs] can't escape and can be collected for their meat!

And of course lots and lots of "survival trapping" or fishing like Ragner Benson has written about!

[rlm2007x]

I think archery reigns supreme here, everything required can be made entirely from scratch with a little research and practice.  Robert

[bilmac]

For those who are thinking to grow unnoticed food in a wild setting, I doubt that fruit trees would actually escape peoples notice. I would suggest Jerusalem artichokes aka sunchokes.They are a very hardy and prolific relative of the sunflower. They have tuberous edible roots that stay edible underground without harvesting and storage, but can be dug anytime.

A big plus is that they are rare enough that few hunters wandering around the woods would recognize them. A big minus is that pigs will wipe them out.

They are rare in seed catalogs. I've only seen tubers for sale which are expensive, too bad they don't sell seeds. A person just might find some tubers in a health food store which would be cheaper and not have to be shipped.

If I were going to grow them in a wildland situation where there was enough rainfall, I would till up an area big enough to plant them all together. They will need help to compete with the native vegetation until they are established. If there are wild pigs around, they would need to be fenced. Pigs are hard to fence. The tilling and fencing would probably be interpreted by other hunters as a food plot, but most would probably think deer food, not people food.

[rlm2007x]

I just got to thinking about my previous comments of self sustainability.  At what point does self sustainability get to be a little ridiculous?  Actually self sustainability is kind of a misplaced term.  I mean it's fun to think about what ammo to stock up on or what gun to use but think about it.  What about all the little details we forget about but really need?  What about toilet paper, medicine, cookware, knives, and tools?  Are we going to make those too?  In my opinion clothing would be the biggest problem.  I mean am I going to grow my own cotton, spin my own thread, weave my own fabric, and make my own clothes?  I guess you could get by with animal hides for awhile.  It's good to be self sustainable in as many areas as possible.  To be completely self sustainable is unrealistic.  Without a community of skilled trades and barter, life would not be very pleasant.  I think eventually in a true self sustainable fashion you'd very much end up living like the American Indian.  It would really be more survival, and a very harsh life.  Sustainability as a community is really the way to go.  What you'd really be doing is condensing your community from present day global trading down to a region, town, or at least a large group of people.  Sorry for getting a little off topic.  I do stand by archery as being the best form of sustainable hunting.  Robert

[bilmac]

One thing about archery, it's silent.

[teamnelson]

One thing about archery, it's silent.

If you're stalking skills are up to it, its nigh invisible as well. I like to watch archery videos on youtube where the camera is on the target looking back at the bowhunter. Its kinda cool when you can't tell where the arrow is coming from; there's just a thunk and the fletching appears out of nowhere.

[teamnelson]

I just got to thinking about my previous comments of self sustainability.  At what point does self sustainability get to be a little ridiculous?  Actually self sustainability is kind of a misplaced term.  I mean it's fun to think about what ammo to stock up on or what gun to use but think about it.  What about all the little details we forget about but really need?  What about toilet paper, medicine, cookware, knives, and tools?  Are we going to make those too?  In my opinion clothing would be the biggest problem.  I mean am I going to grow my own cotton, spin my own thread, weave my own fabric, and make my own clothes?  I guess you could get by with animal hides for awhile.  It's good to be self sustainable in as many areas as possible.  To be completely self sustainable is unrealistic.  Without a community of skilled trades and barter, life would not be very pleasant.  I think eventually in a true self sustainable fashion you'd very much end up living like the American Indian.  It would really be more survival, and a very harsh life.  Sustainability as a community is really the way to go.  What you'd really be doing is condensing your community from present day global trading down to a region, town, or at least a large group of people.  Sorry for getting a little off topic.  I do stand by archery as being the best form of sustainable hunting.  Robert

Robert, I think you're spot on. Stockpiling really isn't sustainability; its handy, and necessary - everybody should do it. But its not sustainable. You really have to taper off your "needs" down to your sustainability, which may mean life without TP, whatever that looks like, because that's what you, your skills, your community, your location, can support. The ability to make hunting implements that don't require gunpowder might be highly sought after - that sounds like a sustainable idea.

And as soon as you have community, you will have those that aren't comfortable in it - always have, always will - and that's not a bad thing.

[hillbill]

one thing a lot of people dont realize, is just how little food you can actually live on, depending of course on the weather and your surroundings.look at footage from a lot of third world countries,see any fat people?ill bet the whole rest of the world lives on less than a 1000 calories a day and still gets their chores done.

[Pat/Rick]

Without any chance for resupply, the only method that still would be around is archery. It is the only method that is feasible for just about anybody to do from start to finish. Making bow and arrow to harvesting game. Firearms? Not many people going to make much more than a zip gun, let alone bore and rifle a barrel. Though i have an ample supply of ammunition for various hunting arms, a couple of skirmishes to insist that you do not want to give away your hard work, could lessen your ammo supply quite quickly. Small game, fishing and foraging would be the best bet, even though I live where game is present, I see tweety birds more than deer.gardening is a given. Trying to get set up on my 9 acres of overgrown and neglected farm. Hoping to get fenced this year and some goats to start brush managment. next years project is poultry and new orchard. Hopefully I'll have it all done before any difficulties fall. I would really like to get an old style wind pump for my well. I've searched but cannot find any. I'm about 200' deep on my well anyway and I think thats pretty close to the limit for non electric pumping. I have an 3rd alternative source and a third close by, but off my property. I'm set for water. As I will be sheltering in place, I would "harden" my exterior walls with all the firewood I could get in.

[no guns here]

I see the perfect situation as couple of small gardens spread out by at least 1/4 mile and hidden back in the trees.  Small, low barns for goats, chickens, rabbits, and pigs.  Two to three stocked ponds hopefully spring fed or creek fed.  Row boats and seine type nets.  A larger barn for horses and maybe a couple of cows.  A decent tract of land at the end of a road with no other road frontage.  Small 1/2 to 1 acre pastures spread out on  the land for rotational grazing and crops.  Fruit trees with a variety of fruit.  A good root cellar and plenty of canning supplies.  An earth sheltered or underground home.  An old mechanical diesel vehicle and a decent wagon for if the fuel runs out.  Solar power and wind power.  A mechanical wind mill to back up the solar electric well pump.  A wood stove for heat.  A wood cook stove with a water heater on it too.  A strong 15 yo boy to chop the wood...


NGH

[teamnelson]

That sounds nice ... also sounds like years and years of preparation to get it there, no job commitment, a good grub stake, and more than one 15 yo boy to help out. Alot like the settlers, and that's all they had on their plate. And a lot of them were farmers before they moved west.