Author Topic: Sustainable Hunting (Read 8406 times)

blind ear · « **Reply #60 on:** February 26, 2011, 06:59:29 AM »

"The Great Plains" was known as the " Great American Desert" before the Government and realestate developers started pushing to get a viable population to move out there. ear

vacek · « **Reply #61 on:** February 26, 2011, 07:52:08 AM »

Understood about the Great American Desert. Actually by climatologist it isn't a desert, it is semi-arid, and yes 20-20 eyesight says that it shouldn't have been broken out to the plow. There will be greybeards 50 years from now regarding their 20-20 hindsight on the screw-ups we make today that we adjusted to and moved on. The east and midwest should have never been deforested but..........

blind ear · « **Reply #62 on:** February 26, 2011, 09:50:48 AM »

Quote from: vacek on February 26, 2011, 07:52:08 AM

Understood about the Great American Desert. Actually by climatologist it isn't a desert, it is semi-arid, and yes 20-20 eyesight says that it shouldn't have been broken out to the plow. There will be greybeards 50 years from now regarding their 20-20 hindsight on the screw-ups we make today that we adjusted to and moved on. The east and midwest should have never been deforested but..........

+1 ear

hillbill · « **Reply #63 on:** February 26, 2011, 02:30:29 PM »

yu know id be curious to know what the actual population was when the american indians where here.thats about the carrying capacity of this nation for hunter gathers.

vacek · « **Reply #64 on:** February 26, 2011, 04:17:26 PM »

It depends on who you read. The book 1491 indicates a population of >100,000,000 in the Western Hemisphere. It estimates that within the first century after "discovery" the population dwindled to a few million due to the diseases brought in by the Europeans. However, to assume that the aboriginal Americans were all hunters and gatherers is totally wrong. After all, who taught those Pilgrims how to grow corn.... and where did corn come from to begin with.

Some studies have indicated that had the Plains Indians not been interfered with they would have essentially decimated the bison heards about 50 -75 years later. Those great tribes had increased in population dramatically after they integrated the horse into their culture in the late 17th century thereby making the bison their main diet and resource. I haven't bottomed this out yet, but some writings were saying that the herds were already on the decline. Something I want to look more into.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #65 on:** February 28, 2011, 05:57:27 AM »

Quote from: vacek on February 26, 2011, 04:17:26 PM

It depends on who you read. The book 1491 indicates a population of >100,000,000 in the Western Hemisphere. It estimates that within the first century after "discovery" the population dwindled to a few million due to the diseases brought in by the Europeans. However, to assume that the aboriginal Americans were all hunters and gatherers is totally wrong. After all, who taught those Pilgrims how to grow corn.... and where did corn come from to begin with.

Some studies have indicated that had the Plains Indians not been interfered with they would have essentially decimated the bison heards about 50 -75 years later. Those great tribes had increased in population dramatically after they integrated the horse into their culture in the late 17th century thereby making the bison their main diet and resource. I haven't bottomed this out yet, but some writings were saying that the herds were already on the decline. Something I want to look more into.

While the horse originated in N. America it left and was brought back by the Spanish. The plains indians got the horse from ship wrecks and horses that escaped for the most part.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #66 on:** February 28, 2011, 12:13:31 PM »

Biologists claim that clear cut land supports more wildlife than forest land. All the little forbes, saplings and plants that were unable to get light are able to produce more tonnage per acre that animals can get to. A good part of the US has been cleared for enterprise and settling. I am just guessing that today there is a larger holding capacity due to more open land. Of coarse this is not the case in heavily populated areas. But for the most part the country is still relatively open.

I wouldn't figure that 300 million folks wandering the countryside are going to last long. Those that do not succumb to cannibalism, sickness, starvation and murder will most likely find a place to settle just like everyone else. Or will just stay moving, attacking those that have what they want. For the most part our society is not self sufficient, heck as a country we are no longer self sufficient. Our govt has put our vegetable growers out of business and we import the vast majority from China now.

A lot of people today don't know where a hamburger or hot dog comes from. Much less trying to figure out how to hunt a wild animal or catch a fish. These are things we take for granted because most of us have done this all are lives. But a large majority of Americans have never done more than stop by a restaurant or grocery store. Survival really doesn't go hand in hand with on the job training. So if things get bad I personally don't figure the hoards of city folks will be much of a problem for the duration. Game populations can rebound proficiently after a decimating loss, so wouldn't think that would be a problem either.

teamnelson · « **Reply #67 on:** February 28, 2011, 12:46:39 PM »

In a total collapse, given the demographics of our society (elderly, obese, medically dependent, etc.), I think a 33% survival rate would be a high number. More like 1 in 4 will make it when you factor in human nature, external involvement, and weather. And those will be a tough 25%, with a larger than usually bunch of flat bad folks in the mix. Probably 1 in 5 today are disposed for the kind of agrarian communalism folks have mentioned here, and most of those unskilled for the tasks. Which means a lot of crop loss in the first season due to human error, which translates to probably another 10-20% casualty rate. In 2-3 years post a major event, without any external issues, I'd say 75 million, most of whom have banded together and established some rule of law, plus another 5 million who choose to live outside and prey on the others.

My original thought about sustainable hunting was with that context in mind. I've concluded based on this thread and others that I will not be relying on firearms and ammunition as my means of hunting. Even in a community, lacking the ability to make BP, primers, etc., I would not want to expend irreplaceable ammo on chores I can accomplish by other means, like bow & arrow, sling, rabbit stick, traps/snares. I am told I think too much and have too much imagination ... perhaps. Or perhaps I'd just hate to be cursing myself a fool then for not thinking hard now.

Shu · « **Reply #68 on:** February 28, 2011, 01:20:36 PM »

Think hard now, live easy later. I think a 22 caliber rifle, a garden plot some common sense will go along way. Don't forget to add some needles and thread to your kit.

hillbill · « **Reply #69 on:** July 01, 2011, 02:48:05 PM »

just read thru all the posts on this topic and it was very entertaing to say the least. yu guys have a lot of good ideas.they do say history comes full circle.if a total collapse of our civillazation does come.i would say the first decade, maybe more, would be very violent, gradually settling into a life style much as the american indian led.farming and hunting in the east and a nomadic life on the plains and more farming and hunting in the west.coastal regions living off the sea.after the violence settled and the violent people were weeded out by natural selection, id say everybody left would be too busy to cause each other much trouble?all though the american indians did show us that warring and raiding is very possible during select times of the year according to weather.it definitly be survival of the fittest for sure.

mannyrock · « **Reply #70 on:** July 02, 2011, 05:59:11 AM »

I am sorry, but I just have to laugh when I hear about the concept of sustainability hunting. Guys, there was a good reason why 5,000 years ago there was this little thing called the Agricultural Revolution, and why all advanced civilizations switched to it. Trying to live on sustainable hunting was a recipe for periodic starvation and death.

Using agriculture, one man can raised enough food to feed 4 people all year round.

If you want reliable sustainable meat, then just buy some domestic rabbits and raise them in hutches. You can feed them hay, alfalfa and stems, and they would do fine.

Buy some goats. They can live on practically any browse, and are a reliable source of milk, cheese and meat. (Why do you think that people in the most harsh dry lands on the planet all raise goats?)

This male-fantasy of wandering around the countryside all day and shooting enough meat with your .22 or deer rifle to keep your family fed is quite simply preposterous. Say goodbye to your children, you will lose them to starvation.

After two months of your sustainable hunting, you would come begging on your knees to someone who had a small plot of beets.

Mannyrock

blind ear · « **Reply #71 on:** July 02, 2011, 07:49:21 AM »

MANNYROCK, sustainable hunting is definitely called farming. ear

mannyrock · « **Reply #72 on:** July 02, 2011, 09:22:32 AM »

Yes. And as our great grandparents knew, meat is a luxury, not a necessity. If you have meat once or twice a week, that is all of it that you really need.

As Lewis and Clarke discovered, as well as all "mountain men", you can starve to death pretty quickly on a diet that consists primarily of meat.

The real miracle of agriculture is the yellow soy bean. Lots of protein, no bad cholesterol, great source of fats and carbohydrates.

So save your ammunition for self defense, and concentrate instead on raising small lifestock and growing beans. In other words, get real.

Mannyrock

vacek · « **Reply #73 on:** July 02, 2011, 06:23:07 PM »

I got another little tangential thought here. If you look at the extent of the wildfires this year in the southwest, i.e. Arizona and New Mexico I think the little socio-economic collapse thing we have been discussing for the past months would be compounded by the lack of resources to deal with the vagaries of Momma Nature. Also with all of the loonies running around building campfires, the conflagerations will be something to see. That being said, I think I have enough ammo, needles and thread on hand..... Think I'll head over to WallyWorld and stock up on some Marshmallos.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #74 on:** July 03, 2011, 05:08:31 AM »

My folks were in a Japanese concentration camp during the second world war. My Mother said that the Australian POWs would drop like flies for the first 6 weeks they were in camp, because they were used to a high-meat diet and the Japanese fed them vegies and rice. Once they had built up the enzymes in their gut to digest this they were okay but it took 6 weeks or so to get to that point.

-WH-

Bugflipper · « **Reply #75 on:** July 04, 2011, 06:37:28 AM »

I'm sorry if it's been covered already, but I haven't read this thread in several months. For what ever reason when we think meat, it's as if we are programmed that it has to be something furry. Just about anywhere in the US has water within a few miles besides the desert. Fish are much easier to trap than mammals. You can even section off an area and have a live holding pen where they can usually stay for months. If you have to move they are quicker and easier to dry out than mammals. Also most aquatic plants are edible. As a bonus virtually every mammal in the area is going to visit the water source every day, so if there is anything there, that would be a good place to trap so you wouldn't waste so much energy chasing after anything.

I am mixed on the garden. No slight on you Manny, you are a fine fellow and I would never intend it. Of coarse it in necessary for a person who is going to stay in one spot. Today we do what I think is called intensive farming. We lyme, fertilize and water if there is no rain for a week. Most of our plants are hybridized for maximum yield. To get as much product in as short of a time as possible. I don't think most folks will be able to stake their life on a garden because not many folks farm the old way anymore.

What is common today is close spacing. The ground(without amenities) and rainfall usually can't support it. I am guessing a whole lot of folks will wither up along with their garden the first year if things got bad. If available I would like to trap animals. That would include birds, crustaceans, mollusks and reptiles with the others. Also harvest wild edible plants and try to keep the marauders from getting the animals I raise.

Things rarely go as planned so a second or third plan is often needed. In the cities folks kill one another for sneakers. If there is no law around, I imagine things will be bad the first year or two until they starve out. Then hopefully things would look a little brighter. But by that time the marauders would be professionals. Seeds can make it 3-5 years so I would try a garden every year, but wouldn't expect the first year to have much because of the marauders. A fellow being stationary is at a disadvantage because the ones wandering could see the smoke and know there is a target near by to plunder. He can sit back like a cat and wait to pounce when the mouse is at it's least cautious. My plan is to hole up and dig in. It's a game of chance though. Either way the odds are stacked against you. I just believe I would be more content living the way I like instead of wandering around hoping to get by.

blind ear · « **Reply #76 on:** July 04, 2011, 12:46:15 PM »

You can "FARM" fish also, even in the wild. Just prepare a variety of density of "cover" that will protect the smallest of minnows such as dense brush that runs from shallow to deep water and have larger structure available adjacent. Throw a little feed in the water ever couploe of days. Brush and logs will attrach worms and bugs also. If in a stream place it below a curve on the slow side. Keep all structure below the water line and place it when the public isn't looking, like dropping crappie cedars in a resavoir. ear

streak · « **Reply #77 on:** July 04, 2011, 05:16:15 PM »

Quote from: Pat/Rick on February 09, 2011, 04:10:41 PM

Without any chance for resupply, the only method that still would be around is archery. It is the only method that is feasible for just about anybody to do from start to finish. Making bow and arrow to harvesting game. Firearms? Not many people going to make much more than a zip gun, let alone bore and rifle a barrel. Though i have an ample supply of ammunition for various hunting arms, a couple of skirmishes to insist that you do not want to give away your hard work, could lessen your ammo supply quite quickly. Small game, fishing and foraging would be the best bet, even though I live where game is present, I see tweety birds more than deer.gardening is a given. Trying to get set up on my 9 acres of overgrown and neglected farm. Hoping to get fenced this year and some goats to start brush managment. next years project is poultry and new orchard. Hopefully I'll have it all done before any difficulties fall. I would really like to get an old style wind pump for my well. I've searched but cannot find any. I'm about 200' deep on my well anyway and I think thats pretty close to the limit for non electric pumping. I have an 3rd alternative source and a third close by, but off my property. I'm set for water. As I will be sheltering in place, I would "harden" my exterior walls with all the firewood I could get in.

Good thing about goats if you get youngs one after they have taken care of the underbrush,vines, etc. you can butcher them and they are great smoked or barbecued!

don heath · « **Reply #78 on:** July 05, 2011, 12:59:47 AM »

PS- History on the frontier of Africa and before that in Scotlans has proven time and time again that a community with 40-50 'men' (ie 12-65 year olds) can hold what is their if they are vigilent.

If you wish to extend your resources by adding a bit of raiding then you need more men, because you need to leave behind 40 'men'- say all boys under 20 and all men over 40- With the backing from the women and properly designed village layed out with defence in mind the possition is effectively unasailable unless the bad guys have heavy artilery. Remember the point of raiding to to easily get scarce supplies (or spare women and cattle in Africa). There is no point or glory in getting killed - which is why you leave the teen agers behind when you go raiding- they are too hot headed and make too many mistakes that get themselves and often their friends killed. Men over 40...a few of us can still dog trot 50 miles a day, but even a stick of biltong like me doesn't sleep too well on the ground without a mat anymore. Also men over 40 are too catious for sucessful raiders. They are better off defending the village and fields.

All of this implies you need a community with at least 60 men aged between 12 and 65 and that will probably add up to 70 women and another 40 or so kids under age and a handful of old folk who somehow keep living. That is a fair community.

mannyrock · « **Reply #79 on:** July 05, 2011, 09:02:37 AM »

Wow Don,

You paint a colorful future. I guess I'll have to stay out of Africa!

I can say that in America at least, once your batteries run out (no more night vision), and your gasoline runs dry, you would be as limited as any other man, and would be just as vulnerable. (Unless you are going to be a gang of raiders on bicycles). Horses are nice in theory, but are easily killed in close encounters.

History has proven that all it takes to bring an end to any badman or his gang is to simply post a big enough reward. Eventually, they will end up dangling from the end of a rope. And most often, they will be betrayed by their friends and associates.

No matter how great a gang thinks it is, it has to have a base from which to rest, live and operate. And once it is found, then that is the end. It is only a matter of bringing sufficient pressure and firepower to bear.

The American West was full of badmen and gangs as you have described, and even worse. They were all dealt with in due course.

Best, Mannyrock

reliquary · « **Reply #80 on:** July 06, 2011, 05:13:51 PM »

Hey, brothers (and sisters if necessary):

Let's ease up on some of the language here before we get too far into personal attacks, Please?

Perhaps Don went a little far...lots of my friends who are longtime combat veterans have strange senses of humor and see things in a different light than I do. Perhaps he was reminding us that an atrocity carries a lot more weight than any number of hearts-and-minds projects. Any of us who had any field time in RVN (me '69-'70) saw that.

Let's pray that we don't have to learn the lessons here in America that he's had to learn wherever he is. Unless you've been to see the elephant, you don't really know what you'll do in order to keep yourself alive...or your family. Let's not condemn those who've already done that soul-searching and have some ideas that others might not agree with.

But in my 20 ('66-'86) years as a soldier, I saw just how thin the veneer of civilization really is, and am reminded of it by the books on the Doomsday scenarios. Let's get back to the meat of the discussion, shall we?

Bugflipper · « **Reply #81 on:** July 06, 2011, 07:46:27 PM »

Let's keep it on the high road guys. There is no good I can foresee that can come of this thread continuing to discuss burning women and children. If you wish to continue that aspect of the discussion do so via pm. Some of the members on GBO are children. This site also has sponsors that help pay the fees to keep it going. Children do not need to read certain things. And sponsors need to want to advertise here. Please remember that before you hit the post button. Below is a link to GBO Terms of Use Policy. You may wish to review it since from time to time we forget.

If your post was deleted on this thread it was my doing. If you have any questions concerning this feel free to pm me.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=54070.0

don heath · « **Reply #82 on:** July 06, 2011, 09:23:12 PM »

Moderator - message heard.

My point is to make people think - and think community never self.

Also- raiders are not always the bad guys- my family has a 1000 year history of being prosporous and respectible land owners...who seriously topped up the family coffers with a bit of piracy, mercenary work, wrecking or simply poping over the border to england to replace the cattle that died in a hard winter.

Gangs of bad guys are easy-it is gangs of 'nearly good guys' - nice folk most of the time but with absolutely no qualms about killing you if necessary- that are the most dangerous- . Gangs of bad guys HAVE to raid to live - that makes them desperate and they make mistakes (use up their Bateries for their NV stuff etc) . Nearly good guys that have a sucessfully running society and choose to top up stocks with a raid when their neigbors are weak is a time honoured scottish tradition- and very effective. Think back to the turf wars between cattlemen and shepherds in the USA or between big spreads and nesters...History gets written by the survivours - and obviously they are the good guys. It is amazing how many folk will boast that their great great grandfather fas a pirate or train robber but would die of shame if their father embezeled funds from the bank.

don heath · « **Reply #83 on:** July 06, 2011, 09:27:31 PM »

No man who has not seen war in Africa can consive what real evil is. Google 'new Adams farm Massicre'..I was the initial medic on the scene. Missionaries who had devoted their lives to helping folk- and they waited till most of the men were away at a bible conference.

The gang leader boasted- If the Jew had not Killed Christ I would have done it myself! I wonder how his interview went.

Don I removed your second sentence due to what was discussed two posts above.
Bugflipper

vacek · « **Reply #84 on:** July 07, 2011, 02:14:38 PM »

Actually this has been a very good thread. It goes from wet dream to reality. I do think the best points made is that the lone wolf idea simply doesn't hold water. I still maintain becoming part of a cohesive rural community of at least 800+ persons with very dependable and safe groundwater, production ag and ranch capability is far and away the best best. Not perfect but the best. Don Heath was very clear that his situation is different. He lives where there is a very large ratio of wild game to people and yet still advocates a cohesive team. The primary difference here in the USA there is more infrastructure (not just electric etc.) and within any decent sized community you have the needed specialists. As I have mentioned before most rural communities are well stocked with work ethic, education, specialization, and lots of people that know how to use firearms. I still like the flat open plains for the simple reason that its a little harder to sneak up on ya.

mannyrock · « **Reply #85 on:** July 07, 2011, 03:04:20 PM »

Just a thought. Go immediately to a large dairy farm (family owned, not a corporate operation). It will have lots of land, mostly cleared, lots of cows giving milk and all throwing calfs, one or two bulls, a few horses, and a desperate need for men to help out, not just with farm work but to hold onto the land and cattle. Lots of outbuildings, sheds, old equipment, streams and ponds. Most daries are in the 80 acre to 250 acre range (East of the Mississippi). Assuming that you don't get shot trying to talk to them, it would be an ideal place to start an instant shake-n-bake community. These farmers would bring in their immediate family and friends first, but may still be room.

hillbill · « **Reply #86 on:** July 07, 2011, 04:08:08 PM »

wow this topic has gotten pretty hot!some of the few men that have actually been there have told yu what it takes for your family to survive.a lot of people have takin a neutrel stance, and some have said they wouldnt do this or that.id just bet yu walk into yur camp with your kids lookin all hollow eyed and your wife skinny as a stik, you would do a lot of things you would not normally do.basically we are all jus animals. men have eaten other men to stay alive so killing sumone for their cow, or to protect your cow, would not be a big deal. lets just all pray it never comes to to this!

hillbill · « **Reply #87 on:** July 07, 2011, 04:24:58 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on July 07, 2011, 03:04:20 PM

Just a thought. Go immediately to a large dairy farm (family owned, not a corporate operation). It will have lots of land, mostly cleared, lots of cows giving milk and all throwing calfs, one or two bulls, a few horses, and a desperate need for men to help out, not just with farm work but to hold onto the land and cattle. Lots of outbuildings, sheds, old equipment, streams and ponds. Most daries are in the 80 acre to 250 acre range (East of the Mississippi). Assuming that you don't get shot trying to talk to them, it would be an ideal place to start an instant shake-n-bake community. These farmers would bring in their immediate family and friends first, but may still be room.

true dat what yu say! but how far behind that is a society of serfs and lords? IE yu milk my cows and i feed yu.it did work for thousands of years in europe tho.but there were only 2 classes of people and yu can guess what they were.

reliquary · « **Reply #88 on:** July 08, 2011, 05:33:27 PM »

Thanks to everyone for getting back on track...this is a great thread with some good ideas.

We live on a 4,000 acre public lake in growing zone 8. I can rig a solar still and two close neighbors have their own wells, so water isn't a problem. Most meat will be provided by things that live in, on, or around the lake, at least for the foreseeable future. This is a rural area and nearby forests are full of feral hogs and other game, lots of cattle around as well.

How much cropland does it take for a family of four? No one around here actually farms for survival any more. I have seed stored; enough to plant about a half acre plus some to barter. The worst case scenario is for SHTF in the fall or winter...you'd need enough stored food to make it for 90 days till planting time and at least 60 days more till harvest time. I have some mature fruit trees and grapevines now and keep young ones "on deck".

How does one go about proselytizing and organizing neighbors ahead of time?

vacek · « **Reply #89 on:** July 08, 2011, 06:06:18 PM »

That's the beauty of a rural community out on the plains... i.e. Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, etc. No recruiting really needed. The mindset is pretty much already there for a large percentage. It goes with the territory. Everybody knows everybody, the ones they can trust, the ones who are known to be able to lead. Then there is also the probability that several towns would network together. In the places I am talking about usually there is a small rurual town about ever 6 - 10 miles which was decided due to how far it was convenient for mail, graineries, school, etc back when it was a horse and buggy proposition. It also goes back to townships, etc. Anyway, unlike Africa, I believe the smaller towns would mutually support each other as possible. Note how the Plains Indians would often bring several communities (subtribes / warrior clans) together as needed or just for some social life.

Again you are on the right track trying to tribal up, but you have to recruit.... Ain't going to be easy. Maybe you and your recruits look at what you have, then how you can then ASAP get to a community.