Author Topic: Fire Lapping a Handi  (Read 4727 times)

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Offline kevinsmith5

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Fire Lapping a Handi
« on: July 21, 2010, 06:38:49 PM »
Anyone ever done it? Used a particular product? Got good/bad/indifferent results?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 06:52:29 PM »
I know of one member that used Tubb's kit in his 223, it more or less removed the shallow rifling there was, his accuracy was worse afterwards. If you're gonna try it, I'd only use the finest grit, even that will increase freebore from previous discussions on it.

Tim
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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 06:59:38 PM »
I was looking at the kit they (Tubb) sell of precoated bullets.  I know they sell some preloadeds that are just the finer grits.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2010, 07:17:41 PM »
I can tell there are rough/tight areas in the bore from cleaning. How about Flitz? Or will the toothpaste trick I read in the FAQ's (I think) help?
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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 07:39:55 PM »
You may have seen this before, but what do you think about the second fellows fire lapping approach? Seems milder and well within my skill level (also doenst require tossing fifty cases).
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_Fire_lapping.htm
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 07:59:50 PM »
I think a lead lap on a steel rod would be the best way to remove a tight spot in the bore.

Tim
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Offline GreenMachine79

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2010, 08:22:14 PM »
Unfortunately I don't think you can put anything down you barrel to improve a poorly made barrel.  Its either made correctly or not, I would believe more damage would be done by fire lapping the barrel.  Although I don't have experience with fire lapping I do have experience with abrasives and they tend to round corners, I imagine it would dull the corners on the rifling.  Also an abrasive will not selectively cut deeper groves and rifling where it needs it, even if you were to open up the groove diameter you would most likely distort the rifling significantly or remove it completely in those areas.  IMO that would be worse.  Anything short of a re-bore to the next size up or a reline would be wishful thinking as far as a improvement in accuracy is concerned. 

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2010, 02:06:07 AM »
It's not so much as a poorly made, I think that it has rough areas on the lands that are snagging at the patches.  Fire lapping is supposed to only smooth these areas and that the abrasive spins with the rifling because it is on a bullet being fired down the bore.  I've read reviews of the process (of various products and on forums where it was not product specific) and they've been generally positive, but none of those were on a new production .223 Handi. Several were on Handi's, but all were 2004 or older and were in larger calibers (30-30, .308, .270). 
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Offline Graycg

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2010, 02:28:33 AM »
I guess I was fortunate, the barrel on my 45-70 must have been one of the first ones after a new rifling button went on the line and it left a smooth shiny bore that loves cast bullets... My 30-30 barrel must have been the last use of the button before it went into the scrap heap because it was really rough when I got it and would rapidly collect lead in various spots with cast bullets.  I used Veral Smith's fire-lapping compound according to his instructions and it really cleaned up the barrel and significantly decreased the lead left in the barrel as well as cut groups size down a bit.

None of this hurt the barrel and it is much better now, but I did follow the directions!

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 05:36:55 AM »
I wouldn't lap any barrel unless I didn't care about the results.  I've used it on barrels that I already considered ruined where there was nothing to lose.
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Offline petemi

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 05:48:41 AM »
Knock on wood, I haven't tried it yet on any of my barrels, but the .22-250 is still not up to par and may be a candidate.  I got it for a 500 yard rifle and is no where near that now.  My .45-70, .308, 7mm-08 and .223 will do it if I do my part......which is real shakey :'( and getting worse in my old age.

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Offline GreenMachine79

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 08:40:35 AM »
I wouldn't lap any barrel unless I didn't care about the results.  I've used it on barrels that I already considered ruined where there was nothing to lose.

Exactly, if you have nothing to loose go for it and report back with the results.

Offline Catshooter45

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2010, 09:54:20 AM »
Well I'll be the voice of dissent here.

I have sucessfully fire lapped over a dozen bores.  Yes it takes work and it helps to have an idea of what you're about.  I have used NEI's fire lap kit.

I've lapped a Kel-Tec Sub 9 (9mm), High Standard HD Military (.22 LR), Marlin 1895 (45-70), several S&W magnum sixguns, Marlin mod 60, S&W Shorty 45.  I forget all.

The 1895 was leading badly with a load that shouldn't have, after lapping it was perfect.  The High Standard's best group was 4 inches, improved to less than 3/4".  The Shorty 45 is a Performance weapon so it shouldn't have needed help, but it did.  It was leading with a load that I knew shouldn't.  After lapping, zero leading.  The Sub 9 went from three inches at 25 yards to less than an inch.

Yes, the bore will grow.  Yes, the tight will go first.  The lands stay sharp, or get sharper.  

Don't just leap into it though.  Study up, learn what you're trying to accomplish and go slow.  Putting metalback is real tough.  Remember, when you put forth an idea many people will tell you how it can't/shouldn't be done.  Especially those who haven't done it.  Not trying to flame anyone here, it's just the way us humans are.

Quick's idea also works well, especially if you just want to hit the high spots.  Both methods of lapping are proven to work, if you do it right.


Cat


Offline Sourdough

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2010, 10:50:07 AM »
I don't buy into messing with a good thing.  I have taken my Handis out of the box and shot them.  I add an O-ring under the fore arm, and if the trigger is too heavy I have sent them back for a trigger job.  Other than that I just shoot them.  The more I shoot them the better they get.  After a couple of boxes of ammo, used sighting in the scope and getting used to the feel of the gun, I'm ready to take it hunting.  At that point it will bust a 4" clay target at 300 to 500 yards, and I'm happy.

When I can hit that sweet spot, the size of your thumbnail, behind a Moose or Grizzly ear at 80 to 100 yards, I don't need anything better.

My T/C 22-250 is the only gun I own that won't do that.  
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Offline briannmilewis

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 03:36:35 PM »
The closest I have come to fire lapping is a friend had a shot-out 7mm-08, he used tubs bullets, about half the number in the kit, and it came back to being a decently accurate rifle.

Again, he had nowhere to go with barrel except down if he did nothing. FWIW

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 05:40:41 PM »
I haven't fire lapped any..but I have polished my Handi barrels and some others with Flitz on several occasions.Done properly you won't harm the barrel but remove a very small amount of material from the bore or chamber. If done properly the results can be pretty amazing..done wrong can be disastrous.  To do it properly,it is very time consuming and particular attention has to be paid to the crown area to keep from hurting the crown when pushing that compound out through the muzzle. For me it is a one way street and all stokes are from the chamber out of the muzzle and the rod is pulled back bare and clean through the muzzle. I can go through a dozen over sized mops in a session depending on the severity of the issue. I don't use a patch and brush when I do mine. I use a 2x over sized cleaning mop. You can remove up to .001-.002" doing it this way,so if you have a over sized bore or chamber or very shallow rifling to begin with you will amply this issue once any lapping has been done.So you need to do a chamber cast and slug the bore before doing any lapping to see what you have to work with. As already stated some bores are not fixable doing this method,but for most Handi's I have done this on,will improve them in some ways. As with most things in life this one is no different..you get out of it what you put into it..

Mac
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2010, 09:49:53 AM »
The only fire-lapping I do is sending bullets downrange.  Gives a guy practice and that's a good thing.  DP
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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2010, 01:39:35 PM »
The only fire-lapping I do is sending bullets downrange.  Gives a guy practice and that's a good thing.  DP

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2010, 04:34:34 PM »
Experts sell a lot of fire lapping kits so they push them.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Spanky

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2010, 05:12:47 PM »
Experts... that's funny. Hehehehehehehe. :D
They sell alot of magnum rifles to guys that don't know any better too. ;D ;)



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Offline saddlebum

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2010, 06:45:26 PM »
Bloviaters give opinions about things they know little or nothing about.   :-*
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

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Offline Spanky

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2010, 07:01:27 PM »
Bloviaters give opinions about things they know little or nothing about.   :-*


Most of the "experts" fall into that category.



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Offline saddlebum

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2010, 07:05:26 PM »
You might want to learn how to drive.   ;D

(oops, you modified your post)
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline NFG

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2010, 08:03:21 PM »
The answer to whether or not it will help, the amount it helps, and if it was actually needed come AFTER you do it...and the amount of firelapping or just plain lapping.  Everytime you fire of a round you are "firelapping" a little slower than with the use of the lapping compoud.

Barsness did a very informative article in one of the gunrags...there are photos of different stages of the process, but you have to do the searching.

EVERY barrel that comes from a high dollar barrel maker is lead lapped the old fashioned way...so it MUST be of some value otherwise NO ONE would put in the time and effort to lap a barrel.

BUT...there is no guarantee it will help or that you won't make a bad barrel even worse...you only know IF you do it and what the results are.

It's like girls/boys...some will and some won't...you don't know unless you try...and YOUR RESULTS are not necessarily the same as mine.

Never mind the nay-sayers and don't let them know the real skinny...all they want to do is whiz in the wind and wonder why they get wet.

I've had to lap every NEF barrel I've had...AND a few Rugers, Rems, douglas barrels, A&B barrels, etc, you never know if a barrel requires lapping until you start shooting it...I do it with a tight fitting patch starting with a few strokes of 320 grit, then 600, then 800...the 320 does the bulk of the job and is the same grit I use to knock the gloss off of new chambers, and the other two just polish....I also use Flitz but is it more of a polish.  I get my grits from Brownells and mix them in a dab of grease(any kind will work) then add a little MKarvel Mystery oil, Kroil or gun oil(whatever happens to be close at hand) to the patch when I start swabbing.

I do it by feel now...you can feel how the barrel starts to smooth up...just don't go nutz with the number of strokes.

Luck

Offline Spanky

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2010, 08:07:08 PM »
You might want to learn how to drive.   ;D

(oops, you modified your post)

Yeah, I think I took your post the wrong way... I changed the post when I realized it.
It wasn't my driving that was at fault... I was on my way home from work and a young man pulled out to pass 3 cars in the opposite lane... unfortunately for him the road wasn't clear to pass... myself and a woman driving in front of me were there and he nailed me almost head on. It's too bad... it was a good little truck (for a Ford)  :D



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Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2010, 05:04:18 AM »
The answer to whether or not it will help, the amount it helps, and if it was actually needed come AFTER you do it...and the amount of firelapping or just plain lapping.  Everytime you fire of a round you are "firelapping" a little slower than with the use of the lapping compoud.

Barsness did a very informative article in one of the gunrags...there are photos of different stages of the process, but you have to do the searching.

EVERY barrel that comes from a high dollar barrel maker is lead lapped the old fashioned way...so it MUST be of some value otherwise NO ONE would put in the time and effort to lap a barrel.

BUT...there is no guarantee it will help or that you won't make a bad barrel even worse...you only know IF you do it and what the results are.

It's like girls/boys...some will and some won't...you don't know unless you try...and YOUR RESULTS are not necessarily the same as mine.

Never mind the nay-sayers and don't let them know the real skinny...all they want to do is whiz in the wind and wonder why they get wet.

I've had to lap every NEF barrel I've had...AND a few Rugers, Rems, douglas barrels, A&B barrels, etc, you never know if a barrel requires lapping until you start shooting it...I do it with a tight fitting patch starting with a few strokes of 320 grit, then 600, then 800...the 320 does the bulk of the job and is the same grit I use to knock the gloss off of new chambers, and the other two just polish....I also use Flitz but is it more of a polish.  I get my grits from Brownells and mix them in a dab of grease(any kind will work) then add a little MKarvel Mystery oil, Kroil or gun oil(whatever happens to be close at hand) to the patch when I start swabbing.

I do it by feel now...you can feel how the barrel starts to smooth up...just don't go nutz with the number of strokes.

Luck

Your 100% correct in this NFG,and what is unfortunate is that many here never have even tried it and yet condemn it to BS by those that do use the various methods with good results.

The problem is many here don't even bother cleaning their rifles, and would never go to the trouble of doing this. Instead, some choose to berate folks who have done this and have elected to pass this information on or they try to dissuade those who are interested in trying something that may improve their rifles performance just because they feel it isn't a valid procedure.

There is a reason for this,and you will see it told several times when people complain that they can't get their new rifles to shoot accurate enough for them. They are told that the general consensus of all who own and shoot them is that these rifles shoot better dirty than clean. For many (not all) this answer is the easiest to accept about these little rifles..and after all..who in their right mind would want to go to all of the trouble to lap their rifles bores or throats when they shoot minute of deer at 100 yards with out ever as much as cleaning their rifle......why heck..it's so much easier just to shoot the things than to actual invest any extra effort in fixing what ails most of these rifles to begin with.. ::) ::) What ails their rifles is that is just how rough their barrels are to begin with coming straight from the factory..and the only real reason their's shoots better dirty is that that their entire bore is coated in carbon and copper fouling and is smoothing out all of those crags and crevices. They think this is normal..and all barrels are designed to be this way which is why they never clean theirs...

While certainly this a valid reason for their assumption on what to do with the barrels.. The real problem with this way of thinking is while their's and some others can shoot very good this way, more of them could shoot much better..and some of them will never reach their true potential. The real problem is the barrels themselves (not the method of correcting a problem)..some of these rifles aren't produced as some of the others..and there are times whole batches are the same way in which many are over sized and rough,and the only way they will ever shoot good is to be fouled..so some of these guys are correct about theirs..but..not all barrels are like theirs...and they just make general assumptions,and you know what happens when they assume anything.

The only way anyone will ever know which they have is to slug them or run a dry snug fitting patch down the bore before they ever shoot it once,and all traces of the copper and carbon has been removed from the first factory firing. I know it's breaking "old Habits " of not cleaning and many won't do this...If they did and if the patch comes out with snags loose on it or if they can "feel" very tight spots along the bore or in the throat by patching or slugging it..then they can decide if they want to go to the trouble to lap them then..If many of these guys here ever shot one that wasn't rough as a corn cob that had a good spec'd bore and throat that been lapped properly,they would understand why those of us that have done this and have as good of bores in our rifles know how much easier they are to clean and how much more accurate they are to shoot. A clean smooth bore and throated rifle only takes a few minutes to clean properly..a rough one takes hours..This is one of the biggest advantages to doing this,at least to me since I hate cleaning dirty rifles..The other is sometimes accuracy will improve..sometimes it gets worse..sometimes it will show you other problems that need to be corrected..Sometimes velocity will improve..and sometimes velocity will improve a-lot..not always a-lot..and a few times it won't or lessen some..(this is where reloading properly and tuning a action comes in..and is a whole different chapter )

There is enough of us here that actually have done some form of polishing or lapping that know the real benefits,to the others here who just want to slam others for suggesting a proven method of improving some folks rifles... give it a rest...cause you are the ones who don't understand enough about your own rifles..let alone some one else.

Mac
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2010, 05:20:30 AM »
I've tried it more than once and it accomplished nothing.  The Handi can't afford to give up any metal because the rifling is too shallow already.  But if you want to believe in snake oil go ahead.

There is no real need to clean a modern rifle until the accuracy falls off.  That might be 1000+ rounds.  The Handi (and most other rifles) shoots better dirty in fact.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline saddlebum

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2010, 05:28:36 AM »
Spanky,
You said I should look up the definition of bloviater before I use the word........Don't need to it's right above this post.
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams