Author Topic: Fire Lapping a Handi  (Read 4728 times)

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Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2010, 05:57:24 AM »
I've tried it more than once and it accomplished nothing.  The Handi can't afford to give up any metal because the rifling is too shallow already.  But if you want to believe in snake oil go ahead.

There is no real need to clean a modern rifle until the accuracy falls off.  That might be 1000+ rounds.  The Handi (and most other rifles) shoots better dirty in fact.

While you stated you may have tried it more than once,you haven't said what or how you did this to come to this conclusion.,nor what criteria you chose to determine if you actually needed to do it in the first place.Also not all Handi rifles have exceptionally shallow rifling from the start,some do,just as some are exceedingly rough and over sized to start with which is why I and others have stated to check before doing anything...So what you are stating as fact, is nothing more than deliberate mis-information to some one asking about doing this,and to continue with some type of campaign against those that actually know what they are talking about...so you go ahead and believe what you choose to,and peddle it as you have so eloquently put it as "Snake Oil" to the like minded masses of people as yourself. Your limited knowledge shows by doing so,and in fact doesn't do anyone who actually cares about their rifles any good at all ::)

Mac
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2010, 05:58:49 AM »
Geeesh!
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2010, 06:08:26 AM »
For the record I clean all my Handis after every session of shooting. It's the difficulty in getting this one clean after only ten rounds that had me thinking about this. And I've looked this up on many forums, read about it in two different books on gunsmithing (the first is where I got the idea in my head), and looked at some local folks results (none handis). I'm going to finish a standard barrel breaking in, slug the bore, and give it some more thought. I can say that from what I've found that the problems many people are discribing with damaged throats and worn rifling seem to be linked to using hotter loads in the process than are recommended.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2010, 06:13:38 AM »
For the record I clean all my Handis after every session of shooting. It's the difficulty in getting this one clean after only ten rounds that had me thinking about this. And I've looked this up on many forums, read about it in two different books on gunsmithing (the first is where I got the idea in my head), and looked at some local folks results (none handis). I'm going to finish a standard barrel breaking in, slug the bore, and give it some more thought. I can say that from what I've found that the problems many people are discribing with damaged throats and worn rifling seem to be linked to using hotter loads in the process than are recommended.

Good for you..Hope things work out for the best for ya on it..

Mac
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2010, 06:16:16 AM »
And once again "breaking in" a barrel is just shooting it.  You'll never get good accuracy from a clean barrel.  You'll need about 5-7 fouling shots before you know what the barrel can do.

I wouldn't clean after every outing unless you just like wasting ammo.  Frequent cleaning is an old wives tale left over form our grandparent's era when it was necessary.  Now all it does is put more wear on the bore.  You can accelerate wear by lapping if that's what you're looking for.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2010, 06:29:34 AM »
I don't quite follow how running Hoppe's No. 9 and dry patches through my barrels wears them out.....

And my barrels all seem to shoot pretty accurate after a single fouling shot.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2010, 06:33:27 AM »
Then that would make them the exception to the rule.  A clean barrel never shoots to the same place as a dirty one.  Oil of any kind will make a barrel shoot all over the place until you shoot it out.  Modern ammo is non-corrosive.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2010, 06:35:28 AM »
And once again "breaking in" a barrel is just shooting it.  You'll never get good accuracy from a clean barrel.  You'll need about 5-7 fouling shots before you know what the barrel can do.

I wouldn't clean after every outing unless you just like wasting ammo.  Frequent cleaning is an old wives tale left over form our grandparent's era when it was necessary.  Now all it does is put more wear on the bore.  You can accelerate wear by lapping if that's what you're looking for.

Again..what is it with your deliberate mis-information. ? Cleaning a barrel properly doesn't wear anything out..What rock have you been hiding under...Foaming bore cleaners used properly work..provided the barrel isn't fouled to the point of needing more aggressive measures on cleaning it,nor does running patches with a cleaning solvent on them...Sheeese.. ::) Rifle barrel makers have found out since our grandparents time when they was shooting BP that with new smokeless powders and jacketed bullets a better barrel that is smooth and of the proper size shoots more accurately and cleans more easily than a loose an sloppy one... It's people like you that want to propagate all the BS about how not to use proper barrel care..or which is best in any rifle barrel..let alone the Handi's..that causes confusion for people new to shooting theses rifles.

Fortunately..the OP isn't fazed by people like you and shows he is concerned and wants to know about his rifle..I say good for him..He can decide which path to take..but at least he is intelligent enough to make this decision..unlike some here..

Mac
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2010, 06:40:53 AM »
Just trying to get good info out.  Old wives tales from back in the 1930s&40 still endure and are commonly seen on internet forums.  Hopefully we can get folks to embrace modern thought processes.  I've been trying to do that for 35 years with some sucess.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2010, 06:42:33 AM »
For the record as well, "standard" barrel break in to me is: fire five shots, run a bore snake through, run a patch with Hoppe's No. 9 thorough, run dry patches through until they come out clean, fire five more, repeat for 30 shots.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2010, 06:43:54 AM »
Just wearing the barrel out and wasiting ammo.  Just shoot them.  Barrel break-in is a myth.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2010, 06:48:05 AM »
Swampman I learned this from several old friends who are/were instructors at the Marine Scout-Sniper school at Quantico and a gunsmith who was an armorer there. It also is almost identical to the process described in both the books on gunsmithing I have. You will forgive me if I continue to follow their advice.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2010, 07:12:30 AM »
The military tends to be very old school & books tend to be very outdated.  A few years ago "break-in" was all the rage but has been abandoned.

Military training is why people still believe you need to clean after every outing.  In the days of mecuric primers you did.  It's your barrel and money no need to ask my forgiveness.

"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2010, 07:29:13 AM »
Both books were published in the last ten years. And anybody who thinks Marin Snipers aren't on the cutting edge of shooting science hasn't seen them shoot. We're talking people who can adjust their shots for humidity and elevation above sea level.....again, I'm sticking with them. 
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2010, 07:34:44 AM »
The military tends to be very old school & books tend to be very outdated.  A few years ago "break-in" was all the rage but has been abandoned.

Military training is why people still believe you need to clean after every outing.  In the days of mecuric primers you did.  It's your barrel and money no need to ask my forgiveness.



No your deliberately mixing facts..Yes..it was needed long ago because of the powder and primer used as that time,but with actual modern processes of producing tighter spec'd and better barrels by the quality of steels and the methods now in use, it has been found to help maintain the barrel and accuracy by using certain methods of break-in and cleaning. Get your facts straight,before spewing your "snake oil " Barrel break-in and proper cleaning isn't something totally new nor will it ever be considered a "rage" It is a legitimate process of the way to do things...provided it is done properly and when the individuals barrel needs it. Just because you don't see the individuals need..or your results are supposedly different doesn't make it wrong..no matter what idiotic things you post to support your opinion.

Mac
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Offline NFG

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2010, 07:42:36 AM »
ABSOLUTELY...Mac...Old dogs won't learn and neither will a lot of young ones.  Some of the "stuff" I've read on forums completely astounds me...sometimes I can't quite figure out if it is leg pulling or it is really believed.  And whats worse... many times it is almost believable or someone just being a jerk, but it still goes out on the net and SOMEONE will probably think it is the thing to do...I don't know how our species survived this long...but maybe we learn a little along the way.

There are many questions like this one where people go into a defensive posture from the gitgo..."I'm right and your wrong"...It's a well proven fact that defending a position to the death is innate in our species.

Da**...it's YOUR gun, do what you want with it, never mind all the rest of the "stuff" or what ANYONE says...firelapping is just a simple, quicker way to get the roughness in a barrel smoothed out, it doesn't matter if someone is making money on it...at least they have enough business sense to get paid.  If everyone just sat around bull****** and whining, we wouldn't have all the very nice stuff you can get on the web...I LIKE THE CHOICE AND THE GOODIES.

Everyone can do what they want, there is plenty of ACTUAL data to prove THIS conjecture at least...take a lesson from the benchresters and long range shooters, and forget the naysayers, they don't seem to have a clue...the rest is nothing but smoke and mirrors...

One thing I will add...the process of wear takes the form of what is called a "bathtub curve" in the parlance of the quality control boys...There is a very high rate of wear for a short period of time, usually a long a time of minimal wear, then a short period of high wear again that leads to failure.  

What was understood in the past has changed somewhat as new things are learned and I've NEVER worn out a barrel from the normal cleaning process...but I've SURE worn out barrels from shooting...sometime in less than 500 rounds in some of the hotrocks I've had.  

Back in the old days when I was benchresting I could see the difference in targets from a cleaned barrel and a dirty barrel...I cleaned before every string if I wanted to win...if a barrel shoots better dirty it means the barrel is pi**poor to begin with and the "fouling" is filling up all the bad spots...and basically smoothing up the bore so the bullet doesnt get deformed as much.

It doesn't take much to clean a lapped barrel...a couple of wet patches and a couple of dry patches but a rough barrel will chew the heck out of a bullet and leave behind "gobsagarbage" that need something that will dissolve the copper...YOU PICK HOW YOU WANT TO CLEAN...OR NOT...besides it depends on the level of accuracy you think is OK...I know guys that think hitting a pie plate at 75 yds a couple of times out of 5 is plenty OK for their needs...again...YOU DECIDE, then do what is necessary to get there...then do it....leave the hard heads to themselves...talking to a rock hasn't changed...it's still talking to a rock.

Luck

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2010, 08:05:41 AM »
ABSOLUTELY...Mac...Old dogs won't learn and neither will a lot of young ones.  Some of the "stuff" I've read on forums completely astounds me...sometimes I can't quite figure out if it is leg pulling or it is really believed.  And whats worse... many times it is almost believable or someone just being a jerk, but it still goes out on the net and SOMEONE will probably think it is the thing to do...I don't know how our species survived this long...but maybe we learn a little along the way.

There are many questions like this one where people go into a defensive posture from the gitgo..."I'm right and your wrong"...It's a well proven fact that defending a position to the death is innate in our species.

Da**...it's YOUR gun, do what you want with it, never mind all the rest of the "stuff" or what ANYONE says...firelapping is just a simple, quicker way to get the roughness in a barrel smoothed out, it doesn't matter if someone is making money on it...at least they have enough business sense to get paid.  If everyone just sat around bull****** and whining, we wouldn't have all the very nice stuff you can get on the web...I LIKE THE CHOICE AND THE GOODIES.

Everyone can do what they want, there is plenty of ACTUAL data to prove THIS conjecture at least...take a lesson from the benchresters and long range shooters, and forget the naysayers, they don't seem to have a clue...the rest is nothing but smoke and mirrors...

One thing I will add...the process of wear takes the form of what is called a "bathtub curve" in the parlance of the quality control boys...There is a very high rate of wear for a short period of time, usually a long a time of minimal wear, then a short period of high wear again that leads to failure.  

What was understood in the past has changed somewhat as new things are learned and I've NEVER worn out a barrel from the normal cleaning process...but I've SURE worn out barrels from shooting...sometime in less than 500 rounds in some of the hotrocks I've had.  

Back in the old days when I was benchresting I could see the difference in targets from a cleaned barrel and a dirty barrel...I cleaned before every string if I wanted to win...if a barrel shoots better dirty it means the barrel is pi**poor to begin with and the "fouling" is filling up all the bad spots...and basically smoothing up the bore so the bullet doesnt get deformed as much.

It doesn't take much to clean a lapped barrel...a couple of wet patches and a couple of dry patches but a rough barrel will chew the heck out of a bullet and leave behind "gobsagarbage" that need something that will dissolve the copper...YOU PICK HOW YOU WANT TO CLEAN...OR NOT...besides it depends on the level of accuracy you think is OK...I know guys that think hitting a pie plate at 75 yds a couple of times out of 5 is plenty OK for their needs...again...YOU DECIDE, then do what is necessary to get there...then do it....leave the hard heads to themselves...talking to a rock hasn't changed...it's still talking to a rock.

Luck

+1

And I will reiterate this fact..you have to check what the condition is of YOUR bore and throat before doing any process like this. If your bore and throat is already over sized or out of spec..no amount of lapping or polishing it is going to improve it much..and may cause more problems than you want.Lapping can at times ease the cleaning issues and may improve the accuracy from a rough bore..just as polishing it can but it's not going to give it a bench rifle accuracy if it's already out of spec to begin with..Doing either won't correct a bad barrel.Many of the people arguing against it or said they have done it and it didn't help,probably never heeded this advice..or understood the process and just did more harm than good on their's...Some others just like to argue for the sake of arguing..and have no intentions of trying to offer good advice.

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline moorepower

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2010, 08:12:07 AM »
A high quality hand lapped barrel can be broken in in less than 10 rounds. Most of my guns are dead on after 1 fouling shot. Fire lapping will take a copper fouling button rifled or broach cut, or hammer forged barrel and make it shoot tighter groups for a longer string. If you lube the bullet with mobile one on the coarse bullets it will push the throat about .01 to .015. So do I want to loose 500 rounds of shooting out of the barrel, or do I want to burn up $100 worth of ammo instead, on a barrel I will never burn out any way. I have read many highly reguarded gunsmiths saying not to use lead bullets in fire lapping, only jacketed. There are postings on the net of fire lapped barrels using the Tubb system, that show a sharp rifleing groove and a smooth barrel. I have seen a cut open barrel by a gunsmith friend, that after fire lapping by the Tubb system did not show all the "bad" things that are sure to happen. I have fire lapped 4 barrels that copper fouled to quickly, and they all shop better, much longer between cleanings. Do I fire lap all my guns? Nope. Do I recomend it for Handis? Nope. I am thinking of pouring a lead slug and trying the hand lap method used by barrel makers and gunsmiths, to reduce the break in time however. Those that have never fire lapped a barrel will still say don't do it, cause it will Ruin a perfectly good barrel, "that copper fouls every five shots". Those that have used it on problem barrels, know it will help a problem child. Different folks have differing views on what is acceptable accuracy, and how may rounds can be fired before it needs cleaned. When I shoot a high power match, it better be able to go the whole match and be able to hit the ten ring.

Offline saddlebum

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2010, 08:55:34 AM »
I wouldn't lap any barrel unless I didn't care about the results.  I've used it on barrels that I already considered ruined where there was nothing to lose.

I think I would rather take the advise and read facts that come from people that have spent a lifetime experimenting in a scientific manner to prove what works the best. And only deals in fact, not theory and gets proven results. Like Veral Smith. Rather than taking the word of someone who admittedly has "ruined" barrels laying around. And tries to debunk a proven process of improving a barrel by using the process on barrels that are already "ruined". I have used fire lapping acording to proper instruction with good results. But in my first post I did not give my opinion, instead I referred the reader to the expert who has done the work and developed the process that has the proven results. As far as Mr. Smith selling lap kits and GIVING out information, he makes very little profit from it and it is really more of a service than a money maker.
Again I refer you to the links in post #18. If you have questions about whether your barrel might need lapping by all means ask Mr. Smith in his forum. I don't think he has his own forum on GBO because he is an idiot. I think it is because he is a wealth of information and well respected.
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline gendoc

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2010, 12:11:30 PM »
first off, i'm not taking any sides here. you can do anything to your barrels that you want to.
i have forwarded this contest to a marine corp sniper of 19 tours in iraq and afgan, which he is
on the job, at rest at this moment.
his responce was:
"if you perform your job to the maximum performance of your heart, soul and belief, you never take a clean barrel on a vital mission. chances are if you do.. you will fail. and when do you think that you can grab a fouling shot when you are not even in the area, as they think.
basically, YMYD...(you miss, you die).
my brothers here wish that your information would be instructed to the other side of the field.
text book instructions are great.  but in the real world, we do as we know best to survive.
semper fi "


sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2010, 12:21:11 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

Semper Fidelis my brothers.  My prayers are with you.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spanky

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2010, 03:13:16 PM »
Now who you gonna listen to... a couple of internet "know it all's" or somebody who actually knows what the hell he's talking about.



Spanky

USMC and damn proud of it... Semper Fi my brothers at arms.

Offline saddlebum

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2010, 04:00:58 PM »
first off, i'm not taking any sides here. you can do anything to your barrels that you want to.
i have forwarded this contest to a marine corp sniper of 19 tours in iraq and afgan, which he is
on the job, at rest at this moment.
his responce was:
"if you perform your job to the maximum performance of your heart, soul and belief, you never take a clean barrel on a vital mission. chances are if you do.. you will fail. and when do you think that you can grab a fouling shot when you are not even in the area, as they think.
basically, YMYD...(you miss, you die).
my brothers here wish that your information would be instructed to the other side of the field.
text book instructions are great.  but in the real world, we do as we know best to survive.
semper fi "




Who could disagree with that? I wouldn't go out on a mission with a clean bore without at least a few rounds through it. I don't go hunting that way. Sure wouldn't do it on a mission!.....No place for flyers!!
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2010, 04:41:27 PM »
At the risk of being royally flamed for pointing it out, what part of this conversation was that a response too? We're talking barrel breaking in and fire lapping. Yes I clean after every session at the range (where I usually shoot 20-30 rounds per rifle, sometimes more). I also will then fire 1-3 fouling shots if I will be taking a rifle hunting (more or less depending on my experience with that rifle). At no point have I read anything here that contradicts what the sniper responded with. And before the flaming commences I should point out that one of the Marines who taught me this was my father, who served 34 years in the Corps. 
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2010, 04:51:15 PM »
If what you do gives you confidence then it's worth your while.  I'm sure in your father's day, the advice he gave you was good.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2010, 05:16:06 PM »
It's the advice he still gives. And follows. And trust me on this one, at 64 years old he's still high on the list of people you DON'T want to be an aiming point for.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2010, 05:46:52 PM »

Don't you just love it when folks purposely mis direct the conversation to prove their point.  ::) ::)

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Swampman

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2010, 02:30:03 AM »
Just trying to save folks money.  I've been helping shooters save money and shoot better for years.  There's lots of snake oil for sale, just watch the Outdoor Channel.  Sometimes I take a brand new gun, check the bore for obstruction and shoot it.  90% of the time it will shoot MOA as soon as the factory barrel lube is shot out.  This isn't rocket science.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline tobster

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2010, 03:45:15 AM »
I may be in the minority here, but I was of the opinion that it was advisable to run a clean patch or two through a "cleaned"  bore to remove any oil, rust preventative, etc. before firing any live ammo-fouling shot or otherwise.

Offline saddlebum

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Re: Fire Lapping a Handi
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2010, 03:57:32 AM »
Talk about a hijacked thread. I'm not the one who started this thread but gee-wizz. 
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams