Author Topic: 8mm Mauser load choice for deer (Read 9636 times)

Sweetwater · « **Reply #30 on:** February 13, 2010, 04:58:04 AM »

Quote from: lgm270 on February 12, 2010, 07:18:44 PM

Sweetwater:

Great post. Well reasoned and insightful. When is your first book coming out?

Better hold on to these posts!

About the time I got my Persian Carbine, shortly after my 14th Birthday, I decided to write a book entitled, "The Trials and Tribulations of Growing Up". Alas, I realized I hadn't lived enough to write such a book. Now, I fear I've lived too much.

BUT, thanks for asking. Just might be the encouragement one needs.

This has been a great caliber for me. Where I grew up, it was unique. Everything I put in it goes 'bang', very little of it actually groups terribly, it is efficient in terms of velocity per grain of powder, most any powder will work in a relative sense, a lot of bullet variety is not necessary. The 4point bull elk I shot with a 175gr Sierra was just as dead as the little mule deer doe I shot with a 200gr Nosler. Put the bullet where it needs to go and you are carving for the grill. Looking like that 185gr Rem Corelok with a full case of H4895 will be my 'go to' load, at least until I get through with this cast bullet segement.

Regards,
Sweetwater

lgm270 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:51:57 PM »

It seems that the 8x57 mm may be more effective in 18-20" barrels than either the .308 or 30-06. A larger bore means a better expansion ratio. A a good 180 grain .323" at 2,600-2,700 fps would seem to be a very flexible all around load. Very similar to the 180 grain .308, even if slightly less SD. You could use the 175 Sierra or 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip for deer, and the 180 Barns TSX for bigger animals. Of course the old reliable 200 grain Nosler Partition at 2,400 is a great killer for the larger mammals if the 180 Barnes TSX is not to one's liking. I know the .308 is considered the standard scout rifle, but frankly, the 8x57 would seem to outperform the .308 in the scout or any other short barreled configuration and would more closely approximate the 30-06 in killing power. Elmer Keith said that in his opinion, an optimally loaded 8x57 was vastly superior to the 30-06. I don't know why he would report such a great difference, but the fact is that he did. Of course he was referring to 240-250 grain loadings in the 8x57. The 8x57 may not be a thumper in the sense of the 35 Whelen or 9.3x62, but it's more than the 308 and runs favorably with the 30-06 in short barreled rifles.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #32 on:** February 14, 2010, 02:03:01 AM »

Quote from: lgm270 on February 13, 2010, 08:51:57 PM

It seems that the 8x57 mm may be more effective in 18-20" barrels than either the .308 or 30-06. A larger bore means a better expansion ratio. A a good 180 grain .323" at 2,600-2,700 fps would seem to be a very flexible all around load. Very similar to the 180 grain .308, even if slightly less SD. You could use the 175 Sierra or 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip for deer, and the 180 Barns TSX for bigger animals. Of course the old reliable 200 grain Nosler Partition at 2,400 is a great killer for the larger mammals if the 180 Barnes TSX is not to one's liking. I know the .308 is considered the standard scout rifle, but frankly, the 8x57 would seem to outperform the .308 in the scout or any other short barreled configuration and would more closely approximate the 30-06 in killing power. Elmer Keith said that in his opinion, an optimally loaded 8x57 was vastly superior to the 30-06. I don't know why he would report such a great difference, but the fact is that he did. Of course he was referring to 240-250 grain loadings in the 8x57. The 8x57 may not be a thumper in the sense of the 35 Whelen or 9.3x62, but it's more than the 308 and runs favorably with the 30-06 in short barreled rifles.

No "seems to" about it, flatly is DOES!!

Good post and I AGREE!

CW

kombi1976 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:38:01 AM »

I agree about comparisons with the 308 Win; the 8x57 is clearly better and it does it with less pressure.
But the idea that it would be better than either 308 Win or 30-06 with a 18"- 20" bbl is a little far fetched.
You're going to lose a bit of MV out of a short bbl as it is - I think the rough estimate is around 25fps per inch.
With my 8x57 which has a 26" bbl I'm getting just under 2900fps using Sierra 150gr SPs and although it's running 2gr under max I reckon you'd be optimistic at best to top a 30-06 with a short bbl.
If the argument is ONLY over the 308 Win then sure.
Don't get me wrong......I like 8x57 and I think it offers more for the hunter who likes heavier bullets.
But this belief that it's somehow superior to the '06 in performance is a little fanciful.
If someone said to me "Oh, the '06 is heaps better than the 8mm" my response would be the same.....no, they're almost identical, at least for the sort of hunting most of us do.
The thing I do find puzzling is that Elmer Keith would make that comment.
I know he though the best cure for anything was to go up in calibre but both the '06 and the 8mm are on the edge of usefulness using 240gr and 250gr pills.
More to the point they aren't readily available bullet weights for either.
The only conclusion I can draw is that when Keith was writing powder technology for the '06 was not what it is today.
And no, the 8x57 is NOT as powerful as the 9.3x62.
I have both and the 9.3 is in another class.

lgm270 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:30:37 PM »

Kombi:

In the 1930's, the period about which Keith was writing, one of the factory 8x57 loads had a 244 grain bullet.

The 8x57 has only slightly less powder than the 30-06, but has as better expansion ratio because of its larger diameter. I wrote that the the 8x57 "compares favorably" with the 30-06. Which is best in an 18 1/2" barrel? I don't know. Probably very close.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #35 on:** February 14, 2010, 06:57:01 PM »

CW +1

Of course, it is the bigger bullet, better expansion ratio, better SD and so on. Oh, as posted above, I get over 2800fps out of my 18" 8x57 with 150gr Sierras, for flat out "highest velocity" in my 8x57. Dad's 20" 30-06 yields the same velocity as my 22" Remington 30-06. They give 2900fps with 150gr Hornadys. I hardly ever use 150's in either caliber as there are better weights for what I want to accomplish. I have witnessed my 200gr Noslers at around 2400fps outperform my Dad's 20" 30-06 with 180gr Noslers at over 2600fps on Elk at over 250yards - Dad witnessed it, also. He was astonished at the smackdown I put on that Elk.

Elmer Keith knew the value of "big for caliber" bullets for penetration; and the bigger the better. He pretty much had first hand experience to draw from when he made statements of any kind. Made it right for him, not necessarily for everyone else, though I do mostly agree with him.

Most differences in calibers of this class are simply on paper. Which is best becomes which do you prefer as there is so little difference in reality. What I've witnessed sways my preference for the 8x57. I doubt my Dad would consider swapping his '06 for any 8mm, even though he felt the 8x57 would be a great caliber for me when he put it together. I was never impressed with the 8x57 until I got to Wyoming and really put it to work. It easily could be the "only" rifle in the rack, but then again, so could the 30-06. Lucky for me, they are simply "cabinet mates", among others. As an aside, I wouldn't consider rechambering my 8x57, but that Remington is becoming my 35Whelen - to be off on another handloading adventure.

This is a great thread with a lot of good input and thought generation. I salute the contributors!

Regards,
Sweetwater

lgm270 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 18, 2010, 05:24:55 PM »

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1078&magid=77
Here is a reference to the German 8x57 load with 244 grain bullets at 2,000 as used by John Taylor in Africa:

Even John Taylor, the ivory poacher who wrote the classic African Rifles and Cartridges, recommended the 8x57 as a “medium bore.” Though Taylor was distinctly prejudiced toward English cartridges, he particularly liked the German 8x57 loading featuring an H-mantel 244-grain bullet at a little over 2,000 fps, saying it was “an infinitely more satisfactory cartridge than the British .303.” Taylor claimed to have used the 8x57 on “most varieties of game, including two or three elephant.”

This is the load to which Elmer Keith referred in praising the 8x57 as a better killer than the 30-06.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 19, 2010, 02:07:37 AM »

Well no wonder.
The H-Mantel was a bullet ahead of its time.
The Partition is basically the same.
But I don't understand the link??

Sweetwater · « **Reply #38 on:** February 19, 2010, 07:59:23 AM »

Kombi1976 +1

I don't understand the link, either

Maybe a keyboard glitch?

The Partitions do work....

Regards,
Sweetwater

1911crazy · « **Reply #39 on:** February 19, 2010, 01:16:45 PM »

I noticed there is a relationship between the length of the barrel with the rate of the twist too this is why with some lighter bullets vs heavier bullets the accuracy may differ in the long and short barrels.

lgm270 · « **Reply #40 on:** February 19, 2010, 03:16:14 PM »

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1078&magid=77

Here's the correct link. Sorry I messed up.

It's a story about the 8mm-06.

lgm270 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 19, 2010, 06:29:29 PM »

Any body try Hawk bullets in the 8mm?

Sweetwater · « **Reply #42 on:** February 20, 2010, 12:45:36 AM »

Now the link makes sense! Thanks. Not a bad article. Actually concur with most of the "reasoning for low velocity in American ammunition" as compared to the European fodder. Makes the 8x57 an experimenter's dream. I have really appreciated the strength in my 98 large ring mauser, having done the overload trip a couple times. No mishaps-primers landed on the ground upon easy extraction and ejection of spent case.

Good Stuff!

Drilling Man · « **Reply #43 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:47:05 AM »

I like to have one load for my rifles that will cover everything i'll do with that gun, so in my 8x57 i worked up a good load with 200NP's. Now after more than 25 years of taking big game, from moose to coyotes with 200NP's, i can say they are an excelent choise, and i have no reason to change anything.

DM

Sweetwater · « **Reply #44 on:** February 22, 2010, 08:25:10 PM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on February 22, 2010, 07:47:05 AM

I like to have one load for my rifles that will cover everything i'll do with that gun, so in my 8x57 i worked up a good load with 200NP's. Now after more than 25 years of taking big game, from moose to coyotes with 200NP's, i can say they are an excelent choise, and i have no reason to change anything.

DM

That's really the best way to go and I have no fault with the 200NP's - I love them. I've had to look for cheaper alternatives that could get the job done due to lots of layoffs and other facts of life that got in the way of my checkbook. I stumbled onto the 185gr Rem Coreloks (didn't know they existed) and Dad started me with Sierras way back in '63. The Coreloks were dirt cheap about 6 years ago and I bought a big bunch of them. The Noslers are never cheap, but certainly are the bullet of choice, even for me, and I've got 4 boxes of ammo loaded with them, and then they are gone. And in reality, I may be gone by then, also!

Drilling Man · « **Reply #45 on:** February 23, 2010, 02:16:53 AM »

I bought 3 or 4 boxes waaaay back when, and i'm sure who ever ends up with my gun after i'm taking my eternal dirt nap, will end up with most of them. You just don't shoot that many for actual hunting, and 200 Speers work well in their place, for practice.

I have some of those 185 Coreloks around too, but i'm sticking with my "one load for everything" 200NP's, as "that" bullet has the widest operateing range of any bullet made...

DM

bcraig · « **Reply #46 on:** February 23, 2010, 10:03:57 AM »

Hi, I am going to be buying a couple of boxes of ammo to shoot and then using the brass for reloading and am wondering about something. I see the Prvi ammo is cheaper than the sellier and bellot and i am wondering if the brass on the Prvi is gonna be ok for 3 or 4 loading or would I be better off using the sellier and Bellot ? Thanks,Craig

Sweetwater · « **Reply #47 on:** February 23, 2010, 07:25:15 PM »

Can't say for sure, but you ask about 3 or 4 loadings?

Yesterday I was at the range with my 8x57mm and split 2 case necks lengthwise about 1/8". One was a Herters case, bought in 1963 when I got the rifle. As I only had two boxes of cartridges for the first 15 years, a box of Herters and a box of Remingtons, (Dad believed in economy), those cases have been loaded well over 100 times.
That rifle has over 5000 rounds through it on record to date. I now have about 150 cases, and have never had much more than that for it. I've read a lot over the last 50 years of handloading about always using new brass or "really good" once fired brass for hunting and the rest for plinking. My experience tells me it's not worth my time to worry about. The case holds the powder in close proximity to the bullet and primer. The chamber contains the pressure. Remember shotshells used paper cases until plastic came along. The case just contains the 'package' during handling. A split neck may ruin a one-ragged hole group, but it will never mean a missed animal or a missed steel target, either. The split will cause the neck to lose it's grip on the bullet easier, causing a slower pressure rise, which will give a lower velocity.

My suggestion would be to get what "you want" to use for the next "X" number of years, and to keep it all the same. I was picking up a lot of range brass at a range I used about 7 years ago. That's when I went over 100 rounds for my 8x57. There is eveything under the sun for headstamps. The upside is I have lots of brass (by comparison to years ago) but the downside it - they all have different "inside dimensions", attributed to brass thickness, web depth, etc. Enough to cause a couple grains of powder variance to load to the same velocity between the "largest" and the "smallest". Makes for a sorting party everytime I put the brass through the tumbler so my loading sessions don't have to start with a sorting session. You can go through a couple boxes of ammo in a short range session.

Unless you are planning to hunt with the factory fodder, you may be better served using the money to buy a bag of brass and a box of bullets.

lgm270 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 23, 2010, 07:47:23 PM »

Has anybody tried the Nosler 200 grain Accubond? How does it compare to the 200 grain Nosler partition?

Drilling Man · « **Reply #49 on:** February 24, 2010, 02:56:10 AM »

Quote from: lgm270 on February 23, 2010, 07:47:23 PM

Has anybody tried the Nosler 200 grain Accubond? How does it compare to the 200 grain Nosler partition?

No i haven't tried them, even though i have a box of them sitting right here in front of me. I'm betting they will be a great bullet, but give LESS penetration than the partitions. On everything but the biggest animals, less penetration won't matter at all.

DM

eye shot · « **Reply #50 on:** February 27, 2010, 05:22:17 PM »

If you look hard you can find Prvi 196gr. SP for $15+ a box and Rem. brass is $13+ for 20. IMO the loaded ammo is a bargain.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #51 on:** February 27, 2010, 06:09:11 PM »

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,185442.msg1098914902.html#msg1098914902

Check out this link about 8mm Mauser performance using 185 grain Corelokt bullets.

Cheese

lgm270 · « **Reply #52 on:** February 27, 2010, 08:52:13 PM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on February 27, 2010, 06:09:11 PM

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,185442.msg1098914902.html#msg1098914902

Check out this link about 8mm Mauser performance using 185 grain Corelokt bullets.

Cheese

A great thread that I previously missed. Many thanks. I read the customer reviews at Midway and Remington corelockt bullets are universally praised.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #53 on:** February 27, 2010, 09:09:28 PM »

Quote from: eye shot on February 27, 2010, 05:22:17 PM

If you look hard you can find Prvi 196gr. SP for $15+ a box and Rem. brass is $13+ for 20. IMO the loaded ammo is a bargain.

It is a bargain, if it works in your rifle and does what YOU want it to. Nothing works for everyone.

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #54 on:** February 28, 2010, 03:42:56 AM »

I've been shooting deer with the 8x57 since the late 60's. Factory - Rem., Fed., Win.,; Reloads - Sierra & Speer 150's,170's, 185 Corelokts, 195 Horn.. Never noticed any differance, just dead deer. Recently I have settled with the 185 CL's & the 195 Horn's in front of RL15. My 98 Mauser has a long lead ( original military), so loading the long 195 Horn., 200 Speer, or 220 CL's has not been a problem.
On a side note - I have tried a few times to resize the S&B brass and have no luck. It seems that the brass may be rough and will get stuck in the die. So I just use Rem. brass, but I like the S&B 196 SPCE. just had never had the chance to shoot a deer with them. Really like that truncated cone style. It sure looks differant on paper, clean hole, like it was drilled with a bit. Anyways, The 8x57 is truly one of the best Deer/Black Bear cartridges one could use.

bcraig · « **Reply #55 on:** March 10, 2010, 09:32:27 AM »

Hi ,I bought some 170 grain Speer 8mm (.323) bullets from a guy on the net at a good price and was wondering if anyone has any experience with them out of the 8MM Mauser on deer? probably be running them between 2600 fps.Thanks,Craig

cwlongshot · « **Reply #56 on:** March 10, 2010, 10:26:15 AM »

I know I have shot them and I'm sure they are at least as good as any other std bullet.

CW

Mikey · « **Reply #57 on:** March 11, 2010, 12:41:25 PM »

I have loaded the 8x57 with the 200 gn Nosler Accu-bond and the Hornady 195 gn rnsp with VihtaVuori N140 powder for 2500+'/sec from my Husky 8 and both rounds shoot to the same 3-shot one hole group at 100m, from a bench. I doubt I could perform as well as either the rifle or the cartridge if I was standing and shooting unsupported but both bullets are very, very accurate and that weight range is my preference for the 8mm.

I plan on using this 8mm for hunting season next year and will probably use the Hornady bullets, although the Noslers look much sexier. I load both slugs out to just kiss the rifling and back off by enough hair so the slug doesn't get caught by the rifling and pull out of the case if I need to eject it. For compariative purposes I stood a factory 30-06 round with a 180 gn spire pointed bullet next to one of the handloaded 8mms loaded with the 200 gn Nosler and the 8mm was just a hair longer in overall length - at that point it gets tough to tell them apart at a casual glance, so I have to look a lot more closely to make sure I'm not trying to load 06s into the 8 or vice versa.........., if ya'll know what I mean..............

rickt300 · « **Reply #58 on:** March 13, 2010, 06:16:15 PM »

I have a K98 with a somewhat unusual winter trigger gaurd. Barrel is in excellent condition and it shoots pretty good with the issue sights. I loaned it to a friend to hunt hogs with and gave him two types of ammo, some Yugo heavy ball to do a little practice with and some of the same ammo with the 196 gr. FMJBT replaced with the Remington 185 gr. Corelokt. Well he killed two big hogs with the 196 gr. FMJBT and didn't even notice that he was using ball ammo as it tumbled almost immediatly on both hogs, exiting sideways. He shot up ALL the soft points practicing, said it took some shooting to get used to the v front and rear sights. The rifle is in issue condition but shows some battle wear, I have restrained myself from "sporterizing" it as I have many sporters already.

1911crazy · « **Reply #59 on:** April 09, 2010, 04:40:19 AM »

I think the 8mm mauser(8x57) is an under estimated and overlooked caliber.

Mikey; I been thinking of picking a bullet weight for the 8mm mauser and i'd like to use the 185gr remingtons but there is no load for this bullet. I may have to purchase a vihtavuori reloading book.