8mm Mauser load choice for deer

[bcraig]

HI,I just picked up an old Mauser that has been sporterized chambered in 8mm JS. I have looked at some factory loads on the net and bout all i can find is either the 196 grain loads or the Remington and federal loads 170 grain. I think that while either of these loads will kill deer that the 196 grain is really too much for deer and that the rem And federal loads are a little slow(2250) What i would like is a load 150 -180 grain loads somwhere around 2500-2600 or so. Is there anyone that makes these type of loads and if so where can I find them. also what kind of experiences do any of you who use an 8mm mauser on deer have to share.Thanks,Craig

[kombi1976]

If you aren't reloading, and believe me this is possibly THE best example of a cartridge which benefits from hand loading, and want something a little lighter then try the Nosler Custom ammo with the 180gr Ballistic Tip.
They say it'll do 2600fps and that is almost as good as the best handloads will develop.
The 180gr BT is also a bit heavier built and is unlikely to explode on bone in the way some of the lighter Ballistic Tips have.
It isn't cheap though......$52 for 20!!
That probably puts it out of your price range, right?
If you can deal with shooting a heavier bullet, and believe me they work just as well, try the Sellior & Bellot 196 Grain Soft Point Cutted Edge.
It does almost 2600fps and will drop a deer well.
The large area of exposed lead also probably ensures good expansion.
More to the point, it's $25 per 20.

[1911crazy]

I shot my 8mm mauser at targets using the PMC 170gr sp's with decent accuracy at 100yds. If i hit the woods i use those.  We don't have too many choices between the loaded ammo in 170gr and 196gr sp's.  For reloading i see that remington offers the 185gr sp's too.  

Since my deer and bear season overlaps i may go with the 196's.

The only other option is going with lead cast which i'm thinking of looking into with a few different calibers.

[Sweetwater]

Don't worry too much about having too much bullet.

I was elk hunting on Monument Ridge near Bondurant, Wy a few years ago and had shot a fine 5pt Bull near the beaver ponds below the fire tower. I had to leave it overnight, after field dressing it and all that. The next day, on the way in to where I left it, I shot a nice Mulie doe. H'mmmm, with the same load I used on the elk. A 200gr Nosler Partition handloaded at about 2400fps from my 18" carbine. The deer was just as dead as the elk - no excessive damage either.
The factory loads may be slow by comparison, but they still outpace a Wincester 32WSpl, at basically the same weight and diameter (170gr and .321dia vs 170gr and .323dia) My 18" Persian Carbine will toss those 175gr Sierras over 2700fps. The 185gr Remington Coreloks I really like, though they only run around 2550fps, (that's where I run my Dad's 30-06 with 180grainers and he used it on 4 elk with tremendous success. Not maxed out for him, but comfortable and accurate.)

Deer don't need premium bullets, and the Remington is probably as good as it needs to be, whether handloaded or factory - I used both years ago to get my first batch of brass - back in 1963. The 8x57 is totally dependable, doesn't need extreme velocity and kills decisivly. Good luck with your choice.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[TribReady]

I've had great results with the S&B 196 grain rounds. Pretty destructive to the lung area of the deer on the other end 
Another option for full European powered loads is HotShot 8mm ammo available online (try Century International Arms in FL)

You can research here and other online sites and find alot of info on the 8mm and deer hunting. Handloading is a great way to go, but for factory rounds, S&B gets my nod, with the Hotshot a close second.  Hotshot, though, may take over as my favorite once I shoot thru all the rds I have. Hotshot is around $15/20 

[mauser98us]

I suspect we may have another 8MM convert in the making here.

[1911crazy]

I picked up some Igman 8mm ammo thats 196gr sp but i don't see it offered anymore?  I been thinking of getting the Prvi-partizan 8mm 196 to try it also. I do think the Sellier & Bellot 8mm would be good ammo too after shooting the S & B in my 6,5mm swede and 7mm mauser its been accurate ammo.

[chutesnreloads]

Ditto on the Sellior &Bellot.Can't say for deer but they sure work well on hogs.Don't worry about how heavy or fast.Find a load that is accurate and you will do fine.For a handload the 185 Corelct works well.

[lgm270]

Don't worry too much about having too much bullet.

I was elk hunting on Monument Ridge near Bondurant, Wy a few years ago and had shot a fine 5pt Bull near the beaver ponds below the fire tower. I had to leave it overnight, after field dressing it and all that. The next day, on the way in to where I left it, I shot a nice Mulie doe. H'mmmm, with the same load I used on the elk. A 200gr Nosler Partition handloaded at about 2400fps from my 18" carbine. The deer was just as dead as the elk - no excessive damage either.
The factory loads may be slow by comparison, but they still outpace a Wincester 32WSpl, at basically the same weight and diameter (170gr and .321dia vs 170gr and .323dia) My 18" Persian Carbine will toss those 175gr Sierras over 2700fps. The 185gr Remington Coreloks I really like, though they only run around 2550fps, (that's where I run my Dad's 30-06 with 180grainers and he used it on 4 elk with tremendous success. Not maxed out for him, but comfortable and accurate.)

Deer don't need premium bullets, and the Remington is probably as good as it needs to be, whether handloaded or factory - I used both years ago to get my first batch of brass - back in 1963. The 8x57 is totally dependable, doesn't need extreme velocity and kills decisivly. Good luck with your choice.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Greetings Sweetwater.  Did you chronograph those 8x57 loads from your 18" carbine?

You've observed the difference between 30-06 and 8x57 on game animals. You say the 8x57 "kills decisively".  Could  you elaborate on this a little more? 

I'm considering an 8x57 carbine, about 18.5" .    Hence my interest.

[Sweetwater]

lgm270-
Yes, loads have been chronographed. Love the carbine. Mine is Persian 1944, still had the test tags on it in 1963, when we got it. I usually have a 3x scope on it. I do seat my bullets to fit the throat as much as will allow. I can only reach the lands with 200gr FB's and 220gr BT's. I aim at 3.25"OAL which duplicates the OAL of a 8mm-06, and though it doesn't duplicate the case capacity of the 8mm-06, it does raise the case capacity of the 8x57 just a touch. The shorter bullets I tend to only seat about 1/2 way down the neck. They are tight and group consistently, so I get the benefit of a little higher velocity without over pressuring due to the longer length. I use medium burning powders and standard primers. No cratered primers here in my rifle. This has been my rifle to experiment with as I grew in handloading from what Dad taught me into where I am today, 52 years later. It has been strong enough to let me be stupid and live unmaimed to tell about it all.

I took an Idaho whitetail buck season 2008 with the 185gr Remington at 2550fps. My partner said, "where'd he go?"  The deer went from standing to a bedded position, ie all four legs under him, in an instant. Almost zero waste.

I watched several Elk taken with a 30-06 and 180gr Nolsers at 2600fps by an experienced hunter and they shake and go down and die. My 8x57 crumples Elk with 200gr Noslers at 2450fps and doesn't beat me to pieces. I wrote this all before, but one such elk was running into a canyon near Jack Morrow Hills (Near Farson, Wy). One shot an inch below the tailbone and an inch right upended the elk. The bullet was found under the hide having gone through the butt and on through the right shoulder, and all that stuff in between! The elk disappeared in a cloud of dust. My Dad and I both paced over to the elk - 265 yards. Dead on arrival. Missed the tenderloins! Doesn't need to be any better than that. This rifle cost $39.95 brand new, plus my Dad sporterizing it.

These loads are not supersonic - they are deadly.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[lgm270]

Thanks for the great response Sweetwater.  I loved reading about you work with your 8x5y and your hunting stories.  You made my day. 

[kombi1976]

Got a pic of this carbine, Sweetwater?

[Sweetwater]

I'll give it a shot. That's a cherry stock and a Leopold M8 4x scope. I also have a 3x that I prefer.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[okie john]

Actually, US factory ammo is a 170-grain bullet at about 2,360 fps, which is squarely in 300 Savage country with a bit more frontal diameter. That's no varmint rifle, but it shoots flatter than you'd think and it's a workable choice for medium-sized game in any conditions short of open plains and high wind.

I've never hunted with an 8x57, but a student of mine took a Bubba'ed G33/40 to Africa on her honeymoon and collected several record-book antelope with it--using Federal factory ammo.


Okie John

[Sweetwater]

Yes, American factory ammo is doable, no doubt. It's simply outclassed by the european mfg's for reaching the rounds' potential, leaving us to (OH, NO!) handload it up there. Just how it is...

Regards,
Sweetwater

[kombi1976]

.....a student of mine took a Bubba'ed G33/40 to Africa on her honeymoon..........

G33/40?
Which model is that?

[okie john]

G33/40?
Which model is that?

It's a lightweight carbine built for mountain troops. Think of a small-ring 98 Mauser action with a shorter barrel.

http://www.quickfilepost.com/pages/g33-40/


Okie John

[cwlongshot]

My only load I use in mine is a near max load of IMR 4064 powder CCI LR primer and either a 170 Hornady RN or a 175 Sierra Spitzer boat tail bullet. From my guns, it shoots under one inch for three rounds @ 100yards.

CW

EDIT: Forgot to mention, my load nets me better then 2700 FPS from my 20" tube!!  The 8MM is a great cartridge!

[Dances with Geoducks]

If your not happy with the 8x57, rechamber to 8mm-06AI, you will not be disappointed.

[lgm270]

If your not happy with the 8x57, rechamber to 8mm-06AI, you will not be disappointed.

Could you please elaborate?  Have you done the 8mm-06AI? Did you experience feeding problems?  What kind of ballistics?  Loads?  Bullet weights? 

[Sweetwater]

CW +1
I found that the 175gr Sierra will nearly match the 150gr Sierra for velocity and hit to same point of impact, at least enough to not spoil my group.

I had a tough time with 150gr Speer bullet performance on a Maine Whitetail Buck back in the early 80's, and have since shied away from Speers for hunting, though I know a lot of fellows get along fine with them. The jackets on the 150's were soft and bullets exploded on impact - we are talking as bad as 4" flesh wounds on rib cages and no penetration in the 50 yard range. Acted like a varmint bullet on big game out of a big gun. You all know my little Persian Carbine wears an 18" barrel. The 150's just break 2800fps and the 175's will run 2775fps on a good day. FWIW-I had no such problems with Sierra and Hornady 150's -  and - this was over 25 years ago. A lot has happened in the bullet industry since then. Plus I switched to cast bullets for probably 99% of my shooting.

I would expect the 8mm-06AI would need a longer barrel to gain anything over the 8x57. I'm running basically 8mm-06 loads in my 8x57 as it is - partially because a lot of loading data is at 37,000CUP or less, as low as 32,000CUP (Hodgdon has loads from max at 32,000CUP to max at 49,000CUP) so kinda pick the max that agrees with your rifle and make it work. Been handloading the 8x57 since 1963, so published pressure and loads are not a particular problem to me. Time has proven my loads to be safe in my rifle, plus they do fit in some of the loading manuals and authoritative works. How's that for a disclaimer?

You, my friend, are nearly on your own as there is nothing that will tell you exactly what to load. Actually, all that is available are good starting places and go from there; you watch your pressure signs, as no two rifles are alike and these military rifles seem to vary quite a bit in dimension and wear. That changes how the pressure rises. High pressure is one thing; how it gets there is another. A pressure spike is way more of a problem than a steady rise, even though the pressure peak may be the same.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[lgm270]

The 8x57 seems to do well out of short barrels from 18-20".  A friend has an 18.5" .308 that only gets 2,660 fps with a 150 grainer at max loads.    The 8x57, by contrast, uniformly seems to produce 2,700 fps with the 175 grain Sierra, noticeably better.   I'm thinking of an  8x57mm with a 20" or perhaps even an 18.5"  Shaw Stainless Steel barrel and a Scout Scope.

 I'm dying to try  out the new Barnes 8mm 160 grain TSX tipped bullet.  It should do at least  2,800  fps and would  be a great load.   Users of the 180 gr. Barnes TSX load report 2,700+ and report good accuracy and good  terminal performance.    A .323" 180 grain at 2,700 would be a good all purpose load.  Two inches high at 100, dead on at 200 and about 9-10" low at 300 yards. Far enough for me.   For deer, the 160 Grain @ 2,800 would  be even better.   The terminal performance of the Barnes TSX improves the killing power  greatly.

[Sweetwater]

Sounds like a great combination! Keep us posted.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[bcraig]

Hi,thanks for all the great replies. I am curious as to what is thought of the Partizan ammunition ? what are the velocities on these rounds?will it open up on deer? Is the partizan and the wolf gold the same ammo ? Thinking about going the reloading route also and if I do I have about 4 powders I am thinking. 4064,either imr or h4895, benchmark or varget. I am looking to use the catridge on our whitetails which run from about 125 to 250 pounds at ranges from bout 50 yards to maybe 250 yards assuming I can find an accurate load. I am thinking Sierra 150 grain at 2700-2850 . Might try some Sierra 175 also but would just as soon use the 150 if it would be enough for our deer under the conditions I described. I need some more input guys .Oh the Mauser I have has about a 23 1/2 inch barrel.Thanks,Craig

[Sweetwater]

Remember sectional density. It's what delivers penetration. The 150's are a little short on that, in my opinion. It works fine up to it's limits, in a good bullet, but if I wanted reliable terminal ballistics on a 250lb animal at 250 yards (possible worst case scenario from your input), I'd want something a little heavier. I can testify for the 175gr Sierra here. Remember also, the 175gr Sierra is nearly as fast at the muzzle as the 150gr. It will work under those condtions with confidence. The 150gr could work, but might need a more perfect shot. Don't always get perfect shots presented. I've used the 175gr Sierra from antelope to elk. Not overly destructive and all one-shot to the freezer. IMR4064 and either of the 4895's (I prefer the H Extreme version as it is less temperature sensitive) will deliver favorable accuracy. The others you list should also, though I have no experience with them. Years ago, I used a lot of IMR3031, but now H4895, BallC2, and H335 get most of my attention with the 8x57. It's not hard to find acceptable accuracy with this round.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[lgm270]

Remember sectional density. It's what delivers penetration. The 150's are a little short on that, in my opinion. It works fine up to it's limits, in a good bullet, but if I wanted reliable terminal ballistics on a 250lb animal at 250 yards (possible worst case scenario from your input), I'd want something a little heavier. I can testify for the 175gr Sierra here. Remember also, the 175gr Sierra is nearly as fast at the muzzle as the 150gr. It will work under those condtions with confidence. The 150gr could work, but might need a more perfect shot. Don't always get perfect shots presented. I've used the 175gr Sierra from antelope to elk. Not overly destructive and all one-shot to the freezer. IMR4064 and either of the 4895's (I prefer the H Extreme version as it is less temperature sensitive) will deliver favorable accuracy. The others you list should also, though I have no experience with them. Years ago, I used a lot of IMR3031, but now H4895, BallC2, and H335 get most of my attention with the 8x57. It's not hard to find acceptable accuracy with this round.

Regards,
Sweetwater

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=317361

Well said.  However, check out this link to the all copper  160 grain Barnes TIpped TSX. It's as long as the Sierra 175 grain cup and core bullet.  Likewise, the  all copper Barnes 180 grain TSX is as long as the Nosler 200 grain Partition.  JJ Hack has  documented the extraordinary penetrating qualities of the all copper TSX's.  Mightn't the 160  Grain TSX penetrate as well as the 175 grain Sierra? 

Moreover, all copper bullets retain very high percentages of weight. Sometimes 100%  per cent weight retention. The  Nosler partition, that I have used for my whole hunting life since the 1960's,  typically loses 40%, as the front end blows off.  That's 120 grains remaining of a 200 grain bullet.  A 160 grain bullet that retains 90% of its weight is heavier and has greater SD than a  200 grainer that retains only 60%. 

I dearly love  the 8mm 200 grain  Nosler Partition, but am intrigued by the 160 grain TSX, and to a lesser extent, the 180 grain TSX.   The concern I have is that the original X bullets had problems with not expanding.  I used some .270 /130's  on a deer hunt and was not impressed.  My .270/130  Noslers seemed to kill better.   Supposedly the TSX's have improved terminal performance.  If I had to go tomorrow, I would probably go with the time tested Noslers, but I want to fiddle with the TSX's a bit. 

[Val]

I don't know if others have expierenced this but, my sporterized K98 Mauser didn't like light bullets such as 150 grain. The loads I use are 180 grain and a 200 grain load. These two loads chronograph over 2200 fps.

[shot1]

I have a number of 8mm Mauser rifles. Different makes from different countries. They all seem to me to like heavier, longer bullets, The 180 gr Nosler ballistic tip should make a good deer bullet. The only time I have killed deer with one of my 8mm was with 150 Sierra bullets and the range was close in the woods and with open sights so the 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards worked. The Hornady 195's should work very well also. They are made for 8X57JS velocity. Most of my rifles really like the 200 gr Sierra Match King for accuracy work. I have played a little with the Nosler 180 BT and AA 4350 with one of my Yugo 48's and the accuracy shows promise. So many guns and so little time to play.

[Sweetwater]

"However, check out this link to the all copper  160 grain Barnes TIpped TSX. It's as long as the Sierra 175 grain cup and core bullet.  Likewise, the  all copper Barnes 180 grain TSX is as long as the Nosler 200 grain Partition.  JJ Hack has  documented the extraordinary penetrating qualities of the all copper TSX's.  Mightn't the 160  Grain TSX penetrate as well as the 175 grain Sierra?"  quote lgm270

I don't doubt JJ Hack for a second. I don't doubt the Barnes 160gr TSX has a decent ballistic coefficient (BC) which is a ratio of the SD to its coefficient of form, similar to the 175gr Sierra. This we can presume will get the bullet to the target a touch quicker than a bullet with less BC. However, penetration capability has a lot to do with sectional density (SD) which is weight of the bullet in pounds divided by the square of its diameter in inches at the base.  From a physics point of view, there is no relevance to length or BC or velocity when discussing SD. However, I DO BELIEVE that, in the field, everything has a bit to do with penetration. I think the jury is still out on the 160gr TSX where as the 175gr Sierra has a grand reputation, as well as the other heavier numbers. I look forward to results to educate us.

Most 8mm rifles are geared for really long bullets, 195gr to something akin to 250gr. However, Germany did produce a whole bunch of military ammo with 150gr projectiles. I think we can assume their ballisticians knew what they were doing. I also believe some rifles will shoot these "short" bullets better than others. My Persian carbine doesn't care. However, it does not like the 125gr that was available back in the 60's and may still be available. 200gr bullets can easily achieve 2400fps without killing in the recoil department. I'm still working on the 185gr Rem Corelok. I'm at 2550fps and look to run another 150fps by the time I'm done research/testing it. If it doesn't get there, it's still a stellar performer at 2550fps. The 175gr Sierra clocks 2750fps, so far its best performance. I find Sierras and Hornadys to be faster than Speers, in most calibers I've run them in. Will be interesting if I can get a cast bullet to run with them. Another quest...

There is a lot of difference between shooting a 2 1/2" group off a bench and sending a lone bullet downrange from a cold barrel. It's a good indicator, but that is all. I've had some lousy groupers that still put meat in the freezer with acceptable shot placement. Everything changes in the field. Neck shots on running antelope at 350 yards are not my forte', but my ex-wife and my sister did it all too often. Guess they just got tired of the chase (or had a baby feeding to attend to) and blasted them. My sister used 130gr Hornady Spire Pt in her 30-06 at 2700fps, but my ex was using 150gr Sierras at over 2800fps in my Persian Carbine. I would not want to be in a fire fight against either one of them!  

Not being much of a premium bullet kind of guy anymore, though I still have enough 200gr Noslers to last the rest of my natural life if I choose to hunt with them, I've found a liking for the "cheap" 185gr Remington Corelok. It's not quite as fast as the 175gr Sierra which always comes real close to the 150gr for velocity, but that Corelok has a tremendous amount of smack. Smack per dollar says it's a real winner.

As posted, so many guns and so little time to play, and I'm unemployed! No end to the interruptions in life that keep me off the range.

Great topic!
Regards,
Sweetwater

[lgm270]

Sweetwater:

Great post.  Well reasoned and insightful.  When  is your first book coming out?