8mm Mauser load choice for deer

[454Puma]

1911crazy
 You can use the data for 180 gr bullets! The 5gr difference in wt will not make any diferrence! Start at the min and work up as with any load!

[mrussel]

I've had great results with the S&B 196 grain rounds. Pretty destructive to the lung area of the deer on the other end 
Another option for full European powered loads is HotShot 8mm ammo available online (try Century International Arms in FL)

You can research here and other online sites and find alot of info on the 8mm and deer hunting. Handloading is a great way to go, but for factory rounds, S&B gets my nod, with the Hotshot a close second.  Hotshot, though, may take over as my favorite once I shoot thru all the rds I have. Hotshot is around $15/20 

 Arnt the S&B rounds loaded to CIP specs? I know SAMMI specs are pretty wimpy for 8mm.

[mrussel]

Can't say for sure, but you ask about 3 or 4 loadings?

Yesterday I was at the range with my 8x57mm and split 2 case necks lengthwise about 1/8". One was a Herters case, bought in 1963 when I got the rifle. As I only had two boxes of cartridges for the first 15 years, a box of Herters and a box of Remingtons, (Dad believed in economy), those cases have been loaded well over 100 times.
That rifle has over 5000 rounds through it on record to date. I now have about 150 cases, and have never had much more than that for it.  I've read a lot over the last 50 years of handloading about always using new brass or "really good" once fired brass for hunting and the rest for plinking. My experience tells me it's not worth my time to worry about. The case holds the powder in close proximity to the bullet and primer. The chamber contains the pressure. Remember shotshells used paper cases until plastic came along. The case just contains the 'package' during handling. A split neck may ruin a one-ragged hole group, but it will never mean a missed animal or a missed steel target, either. The split will cause the neck to lose it's grip on the bullet easier, causing a slower pressure rise, which will give a lower velocity.

My suggestion would be to get what "you want" to use for the next "X" number of years, and to keep it all the same. I was picking up a lot of range brass at a range I used about 7 years ago. That's when I went over 100 rounds for my 8x57. There is eveything under the sun for headstamps. The upside is I have lots of brass (by comparison to years ago) but the downside it - they all have different "inside dimensions", attributed to brass thickness, web depth, etc. Enough to cause a couple grains of powder variance to load to the same velocity between the "largest" and the "smallest". Makes for a sorting party everytime I put the brass through the tumbler so my loading sessions don't have to start with a sorting session. You can go through a couple boxes of ammo in a short range session.

Unless you are planning to hunt with the factory fodder, you may be better served using the money to buy a bag of brass and a box of bullets.

 I would say,use once fired minimally re-sized fire formed brass for hunting.

[mrussel]

If you look hard you can find Prvi 196gr. SP for $15+ a box and Rem. brass is $13+ for 20. IMO the loaded ammo is a bargain.

It is a bargain, if it works in your rifle and does what YOU want it to.  Nothing works for everyone.

 I paid 24 for 50. (The 30-06 was 21 for 50 just for comparison,and 7.62x54R was 48 for 100). I thought about writing something about how its better to buy the cases rather than buying pre-made ammo,but then I added up the prices and realized exactly what you said right there. At $16 a box,which is what I can get it for,thats 80 cents per case. If I buy everything without searching for really good deals (in other words,what you could go buy it for,rather than what you find it for if you are very lucky,and for instance find a bag of 8mm or a box of 303 in the bargain cave at Cabelas for half price) it costs me about 71 cents not counting the powder. Count that in and your at or above factory ammo prices. For the first shot at the range,in a virgin case,there is no difference except the time you had to use reloading. After that of course,your ammo is better because it fits your gun,and cheaper because you reuse the cases. You can save even more using cast bullets but that's a whole other discussion.

[Sweetwater]

 I would say,use once fired minimally re-sized fire formed brass for hunting.

So would I IF it were a once in a lifetime African Safari.

Otherwise, I would say it was a waste of perfectly usable brass. But that's just me. And I don't pay $13 a box for empty brass for anything. I've never lost an elk, deer, or antelope to my bargain handloads. Likely never will.

[mrussel]

 I would say,use once fired minimally re-sized fire formed brass for hunting.

So would I IF it were a once in a lifetime African Safari.

Otherwise, I would say it was a waste of perfectly usable brass. But that's just me. And I don't pay $13 a box for empty brass for anything. I've never lost an elk, deer, or antelope to my bargain handloads. Likely never will.

 How many full power reloads do you get on average? I haven't been reloading long enough to wear much brass out yet (and I usualy load it light for to save wear,at least on things other than 45,which I always seem to come home with more of than I left with),so Im wondering how long I can expect it to last?

[Sweetwater]

The short answer is "don't know for sure" - I'll quote an earlier post.

Yesterday I was at the range with my 8x57mm and split 2 case necks lengthwise about 1/8". One was a Herters case, bought in 1963 when I got the rifle. As I only had two boxes of cartridges for the first 15 years, a box of Herters and a box of Remingtons, (Dad believed in economy), those cases have been loaded well over 100 times.
That rifle has over 5000 rounds through it on record to date. I now have about 150 cases, and have never had much more than that for it.  I've read a lot over the last 50 years of handloading about always using new brass or "really good" once fired brass for hunting and the rest for plinking. My experience tells me it's not worth my time to worry about.

Note: well over 100 times for those first two boxes of shells. I still have 17 of the 20 Herter's cases. That rifle has had nothing but full power loads. I went beyond 3 boxes about 6 years ago and the rifle has been shot relatively little since 2001. So, a lot of those cases have had a lot of full power loads. I've got 257Roberts brass from 1954 that were in my Grandfather's stuff. The original paper box has 23 hash marks indicating 23 times reloaded plus the original factory load. Load marked on the box is 45gr IMR4350 117gr Hdy - not a light load by any means. Some of my 41mag brass dates to 1980 and is a mix of heavy and light loads. H'mmm, got a box of 32WSpl that says 1932 on it. Gramp bought that rifle in 1927, NIB. I've been shooting this M94 since 1962 and have no idea how many times that brass has been reloaded, as we didn't put hash marks on the boxes and Gramp didn't reload for it - only Gramp put the hash marks on the 257R boxes because someone told him he could only reload them a couple times. He wanted to know. I've come not to care. I simply toss it when it's used up. If it's good enough for load development, it's good enough to take game or win trophies. Works for me.

It may not work for you and you have to go with what works for you!

[mannyrock]

  Well, you have to love this string.  The guy asked about shooting deer, and now we are talking about Elk and Elephants! 

  Why oh why does everybody make everything so complicated?  :-)

  Short Answers:

   1.  No, the 196 grain bullet is not "too much" for deer.  It is just fine.
 
   2.  Deer are pretty easy to kill.

   3.  The 196 grain factory S&B is just fine, and will shoot flat enough for any deer you may want to hunt.

   4.  If you decide to handload, then the Remington Corelokts will probably be excellent as well.

   5.  You don't need high tech premium bullets or ammo to hunt deer.  Any reputable 8mm bullet in the 175 to 200 grain weight, traveling at 2500 to 2800 fps, will be excellent.

Best,
Mannyrock

[Mckie Hollow]

I run a 195 gr. Horn. @ about 2425fps. in My 98 Mauser. My brother prefesr a 170 gr. Sierra in His 98 Mauser. The 2 Bucks hanging on the pole, last year, could not tell the differance in these hand loads. The reason that I load the 195 Horn. is because it seems to shoot a bit better than the 185 core lokt out of my original barrel. But I could be happy with all three. I don't think that a White Tail requires a higher quality of bullet. I would save the quality bullets for applications required for a tougher game animal.

[sabretip]

I run a 195 gr. Horn. @ about 2425fps. in My 98 Mauser. My brother prefesr a 170 gr. Sierra in His 98 Mauser. The 2 Bucks hanging on the pole, last year, could not tell the differance in these hand loads. The reason that I load the 195 Horn. is because it seems to shoot a bit better than the 185 core lokt out of my original barrel. But I could be happy with all three. I don't think that a White Tail requires a higher quality of bullet. I would save the quality bullets for applications required for a tougher game animal.

I prefer the 195 Hornady as well, I get nearly the identical velocity that you are getting. The 30-06  has nothing on a properly loaded 8x57 JS Mauser 98.

[mrussel]

lgm270-
Yes, loads have been chronographed. Love the carbine. Mine is Persian 1944, still had the test tags on it in 1963, when we got it. I usually have a 3x scope on it. I do seat my bullets to fit the throat as much as will allow. I can only reach the lands with 200gr FB's and 220gr BT's. I aim at 3.25"OAL which duplicates the OAL of a 8mm-06, and though it doesn't duplicate the case capacity of the 8mm-06, it does raise the case capacity of the 8x57 just a touch. The shorter bullets I tend to only seat about 1/2 way down the neck. They are tight and group consistently, so I get the benefit of a little higher velocity without over pressuring due to the longer length. I use medium burning powders and standard primers. No cratered primers here in my rifle. This has been my rifle to experiment with as I grew in handloading from what Dad taught me into where I am today, 52 years later. It has been strong enough to let me be stupid and live unmaimed to tell about it all.

I took an Idaho whitetail buck season 2008 with the 185gr Remington at 2550fps. My partner said, "where'd he go?"  The deer went from standing to a bedded position, ie all four legs under him, in an instant. Almost zero waste.

I watched several Elk taken with a 30-06 and 180gr Nolsers at 2600fps by an experienced hunter and they shake and go down and die. My 8x57 crumples Elk with 200gr Noslers at 2450fps and doesn't beat me to pieces. I wrote this all before, but one such elk was running into a canyon near Jack Morrow Hills (Near Farson, Wy). One shot an inch below the tailbone and an inch right upended the elk. The bullet was found under the hide having gone through the butt and on through the right shoulder, and all that stuff in between! The elk disappeared in a cloud of dust. My Dad and I both paced over to the elk - 265 yards. Dead on arrival. Missed the tenderloins! Doesn't need to be any better than that. This rifle cost $39.95 brand new, plus my Dad sporterizing it.

These loads are not supersonic - they are deadly.

Regards,
Sweetwater

 Which Nosler bullets are you using and what kind of powder are you using under it? It looks like I may be taking an 8mm Elk hunting next month.

[mrussel]

I agree about comparisons with the 308 Win; the 8x57 is clearly better and it does it with less pressure.
But the idea that it would be better than either 308 Win or 30-06 with a 18"- 20" bbl is a little far fetched.
You're going to lose a bit of MV out of a short bbl as it is - I think the rough estimate is around 25fps per inch.
With my 8x57 which has a 26" bbl I'm getting just under 2900fps using Sierra 150gr SPs and although it's running 2gr under max I reckon you'd be optimistic at best to top a 30-06 with a short bbl.
If the argument is ONLY over the 308 Win then sure.
Don't get me wrong......I like 8x57 and I think it offers more for the hunter who likes heavier bullets.
But this belief that it's somehow superior to the '06 in performance is a little fanciful.
If someone said to me "Oh, the '06 is heaps better than the 8mm" my response would be the same.....no, they're almost identical, at least for the sort of hunting most of us do.
The thing I do find puzzling is that Elmer Keith would make that comment.
I know he though the best cure for anything was to go up in calibre but both the '06 and the 8mm are on the edge of usefulness using 240gr and 250gr pills.
More to the point they aren't readily available bullet weights for either.
The only conclusion I can draw is that when Keith was writing powder technology for the '06 was not what it is today.
And no, the 8x57 is NOT as powerful as the 9.3x62.
I have both and the 9.3 is in another class.

 Didn't Elmer Keith like really heavy bullets. It then makes perfect sense that he would prefer the 8mm over the 06 for that very reason. I agree though,everythign I have looked at for the 8mm or the 06 looks to be very similar. People say the 06 is a little more powerfull than the 8mm and maybe it is,but most of the published loads are neck in neck.

[Sweetwater]

mrussell - the Nosler bullet used in the 8x57 is 200gr flat based partition and the powder is BallC2. It's the only Nosler I've ever used in the 8x57mm, and the only powder I've been able to break 2400fps with in the carbine. I also seat the bullet at 3.25" COL, similar to the 8mm-06 COL.

The blast tells me the pressures are "up there", though the cases nearly last forever, easy extraction, nothing strange with the primers, the pockets stay tight - and I've worked on other hotter loads that had easy extraction, but the primers fell out upon extraction and the blast had an errie feel/sound, so I do have a real basis of pressure comparison, at least for me. 

Yes, the carbine loses some velocity and the real slow powders don't work for me and that short barrel, but the medium burners will really make it cook. 175gr Sierra's run 2750fps, 185gr Rem Coreloks will tick 2550fps. H335, IMR3031, IMR & H4895 all work fine with the 150-185's, but it took BallC2 (which is supposed to be similar to H335) to break 2400fps with the 200gr Nosler Partition. Standard primers used throughout.

Case life has been terrific - most loads have been in the upper limits of most of the books - at least somewhere in some book.

[mrussel]

Can't say for sure, but you ask about 3 or 4 loadings?

Yesterday I was at the range with my 8x57mm and split 2 case necks lengthwise about 1/8". One was a Herters case, bought in 1963 when I got the rifle. As I only had two boxes of cartridges for the first 15 years, a box of Herters and a box of Remingtons, (Dad believed in economy), those cases have been loaded well over 100 times.
That rifle has over 5000 rounds through it on record to date. I now have about 150 cases, and have never had much more than that for it.  I've read a lot over the last 50 years of handloading about always using new brass or "really good" once fired brass for hunting and the rest for plinking. My experience tells me it's not worth my time to worry about. The case holds the powder in close proximity to the bullet and primer. The chamber contains the pressure. Remember shotshells used paper cases until plastic came along. The case just contains the 'package' during handling. A split neck may ruin a one-ragged hole group, but it will never mean a missed animal or a missed steel target, either. The split will cause the neck to lose it's grip on the bullet easier, causing a slower pressure rise, which will give a lower velocity.

My suggestion would be to get what "you want" to use for the next "X" number of years, and to keep it all the same. I was picking up a lot of range brass at a range I used about 7 years ago. That's when I went over 100 rounds for my 8x57. There is eveything under the sun for headstamps. The upside is I have lots of brass (by comparison to years ago) but the downside it - they all have different "inside dimensions", attributed to brass thickness, web depth, etc. Enough to cause a couple grains of powder variance to load to the same velocity between the "largest" and the "smallest". Makes for a sorting party everytime I put the brass through the tumbler so my loading sessions don't have to start with a sorting session. You can go through a couple boxes of ammo in a short range session.

Unless you are planning to hunt with the factory fodder, you may be better served using the money to buy a bag of brass and a box of bullets.

 I think I paid around 24 dollars for a bag of 50 Remington 8x57 brass. Ive been loading 45 grains of Reloader 15 under some Remington 187 grains that I got in the bargain cave at Cabellas. I chose 45 grains becuase some manuals listed a 200 grain as using from 44.5-49.5gr of Reloader 15 and I couldn't find anything for the Remington bullets.  It seems to work well with no pressure signs and decent accuracy. I think I will load some up and down from the last 50 I have and see if anything jumps out accuracy wise and then decide if Im going to buy more. They really are no cheaper some other brands I can get locally,so Im not really sure if I want to keep buying them. My big complaint is,even the bags of them that are NOT on the clearance rack seem kinda beat up compared to what you find when you open a box of Sierras or Hornadys.

[shot1]

Here is how you get FREE 8X57JS brass. It is coming up to big game hunting season and many people will be banging away at the range. Many of them will be shooting a 30-06 and just leave their cases laying or put in a bucket or trash bin. PICK THEM UP.
Remove the expander ball from your 8X57JS full length sizing die. Lightly lube up the 30-06 cases and with one quick stroke run them through the sizing die. Trim them to proper length for the 8X57JS. Replace the expander ball into your size die and lube the cases again getting some inside the neck and run them through the sizing die once more. Now you have your FREE 8X57JS cases.    I have had great luck using Hornady One Shot (from the spray can not the pump bottle) lube. Spray it on the cases and give the size die a shot up in it and let it dry for a few minutes before you start sizing and I get NO LUBE DENTS.

[Sweetwater]

mrussell-a pal just ran that 200gr Nosler load through his Quickload and it predicted the velocity within 7fps of what my Chrony says at just over 2400fps. Pressure (avg) in the 47,000PSI arena. Probably why my case life is really great. Shoot me your email and I can share some 185Rem data also from Quickload.