45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?

[guns-o-fun]

Well, ok...the article really was about the downrange part - but again - just comparing to standard factory ammo, and IIRC, no comparisons at the outer limits of either cartridge.  Good grief is right.  This was meant as a feel-good thread for all of us who recently picked up one of those beautiful little 45LC BC CRs, and just look what it turned into!

[Mac11700]

Well, ok...the article really was about the downrange part - but again - just comparing to standard factory ammo, and IIRC, no comparisons at the outer limits of either cartridge.  Good grief is right.  This was meant as a feel-good thread for all of us who recently picked up one of those beautiful little 45LC BC CRs, and just look what it turned into!

Sorry to rain on anyones parade here...thought the discussion was going pretty good...I am sorry if it was meant only for those who just got a 45lc in a Handi to be able to discuss the merits of the post.

Mac

[Blackhawker]

I'm telling ya guys, there is no need to argue here.  Everyone should just go out and buy a CR-45 carbine and an accessory barrel in 30-30.  Shoot em both and have fun.  Bring on the leverguns too!  Let's let the deer (or prairie dogs in my case) worry about what happens at 100, 150, and 200 yards!!! 

 

[guns-o-fun]

If I can keep the weight down, the accessory 30-30 for this frame is on my list.  This little carbine is just a pure pleasure to carry with its little 20-inch 45LC barrel and a light scope!  There is already a Marlin 30-30 in the safe - guess it will have a little brother soon, too.

PS:  Mac, I don't think you rained on anybody's parade.  Very interesting to see the twists and turns these threads can take!

[cwlongshot]

Splain this to me...What are you limiting to SAAMI specs...both..or just the 30-30...? If both are limited to SAAMI specs...the 30-30 will win hands down..If your talking about running the 45LC at 42,000psi..and limiting the 30-30..then yes..the bigger heavier bullet at near the velocity of the lighter bullet will win.....I thought the 30-30 was 42,000PSi..http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm..Let's see...the 45LC SAAMI rating is 17,000 PSI...the 30-30 is 42,000psi...Your raising the threshold up by 25,000psi on the 45LC...but limiting the 30-30..is this correct? Mac

Surely. 

I prefer to only talk in CUP. PSI confuses too many people. Copper Units of Pressure is a standard.

The 30-30 is loaded to 38-42,000 CUP. The 45 Colt is loaded to 14-16,000 CUP.  http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm STD loadings, neither hot rodded.

The 30-30 was brought about as a rifle round, in 1895. Designed for a stronger action. (For its time) The 45 Colt, in 1872 and for a revolver.

IMHO, this topic comes to be because of the popularity of these two grand old calibers. (Specifically for us, because the 30-30 is a GREAT handi caliber. Then the beautiful little H&R carbine chambered for the 45 Colt is gaining popularity and so here we are.) The 45COLT has maintained popularity for a number of reasons. Being chambered side by side with the 41 & 44 magnums. Its only a natural thing for people to surmise it could be loaded to identical pressures as the other two. This is of coarse NOT TRUE. But its NOT NEEDED to attain like or even better performance than the other two. Mostly because the 45 is capable or more capable with heavier bullets than the other two.

I am proposing that if the 45 Colt where designed  with the same mentality of when the 30-30 was designed. It might have been loaded to 40,000 CUP as well. That being said, its performance would be greatly improved. Its loaded SO lightly for today’s firearms it’s a natural for loading it up.

I don’t wish to take anything away from either caliber. Each has many, many excellent attributes. People feel strongly about each. The fact is neither is really better than the other taken at face value. BUT if we are talking white-tailed deer hunting. The 45Colt loaded to even 30,000 CUP is hands down the winner up to 100 yards. Now the 30-30 is in no way a long range caliber in the world of 30/378 magnums. But in our little comparison and considering Hornadys lever evolution rounds. Its certainly is!! It literally trounces the Colt beyond 100yards. The 45’s large diameter and heavy for caliber bullets FLATTEN GAME. Just as pointy stream lined bullets hold there energy, drop and drift less as the ranges stretch.

Long story, short. I am merely proposing loading BOTH to the same pressures and taking them at face value… 

CW

[blacksan]

OK, time to add another dimension to this this just for giggles. The 454 Casull was developed in 1957 by simply making the 45LC case longer and structurally more sound. One of the reasons for a longer case was more capacity (old powder technology) and to not mistakenly inserting the 454C in a 45LC chamber. So, if you trim the 454C case to 45LC dimensions you can pump the grand old cartridge up to magnificent levels without brass failure. Take a gander at 454C performance vs the beloved 30-30 Win. 

PS I know this point is mute but debate amongst the masses is entertaining.................

[cwlongshot]

OK, time to add another dimension to this this just for giggles. The 454 Casull was developed in 1957 by simply making the 45LC case longer and structurally more sound. One of the reasons for a longer case was more capacity (old powder technology) and to not mistakenly inserting the 454C in a 45LC chamber. So, if you trim the 454C case to 45LC dimensions you can pump the grand old cartridge up to magnificent levels without brass failure. Take a gander at 454C performance vs the beloved 30-30 Win.  

PS I know this point is mute but debate amongst the masses is entertaining.................

Yes and no...

When first designed it was simply a 45 colt case hot loaded. But the large amounts of ball pistol powder became an issue reliably igniting. The fix was small rifle primers for hotter, larger volume of spark.
 Your spot on that the longer cases will not fit a 45Colt camber and this is of coarse for safety reasons.
 Brass failure was not an issue Brass is quite weak and does little more than hold the powder. The cases them selves really only marginally thicker than 45 Colt brass of today. So unless your going to load compressed loads of ball powder, cutting down 454 cases is really of little to no advantage.

An astute and experienced loader, could safely load the 45Colt to very high velocities and pressures (below 454) in modern strong actions with little troubles.

CW

[dpe.ahoy]

CW has it right.  Sectioned 44 mag cases and modern 45 colt cases have the same web thickness.  The myth of "weak brass" is from the old ballon head cases.  As long as your chamber is not oversized, the brass will hold fine.  My 45 colt barrel chamber is on the large size and allows my cases to swell enough I had to work on my extractor to get fired cases out of the chamber.  Even with max loads of H-110 under 310 gr SWC's I have reloaded some of them 7 times and haven't lost a case from the necks splitting.  I love the 45 more than I like the 44 mag, just me but it will out perform the 44 at the same pressure.  Ya just don't need to worry about shortening the 454 to get fantastic performance from the old girl.  I enjoy all my Handi chamberings and don't fuss about which is better than the other.  (I mean after all, they are part of the family. )  DP

[blacksan]

An astute and experienced loader, could safely load the 45Colt to very high velocities and pressures (below 454) in modern strong actions with little troubles.CW

Oh my, the results I've gotten from my 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk in times past (when I thought massive recoil was fun) where amazing. When I moved to the next level with a 5 shot cylinder to get more beef between the chambers it became atomic. Nothing like getting the front sight firmly buried in your forehead to make you see stars...................  

PS I like all firearms, calibers, etc and spend more time with my (soon to be) 110 year old Mauser just plinking the afternoon away. 

[lrs]

I'm telling ya guys, there is no need to argue here.  Everyone should just go out and buy a CR-45 carbine and an accessory barrel in 30-30.  Shoot em both and have fun.  Bring on the leverguns too!  Let's let the deer (or prairie dogs in my case) worry about what happens at 100, 150, and 200 yards!!! 

 

I'm thinking the same thing.  In addition, I want to add a .357
I've got a snub nose .38 S&W, I've been thinking of trying some 200 grain cast bullets.  I bet they'd shoot fine out of a .357 rifle barrel.