45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?

[wreckhog]

So if 454 cases are stronger, could you just trim them til they chamber in the BC? The better to tolerate +P loads.

[Blackhawker]

I have a comment with humor intended here:

Personally, I love both of these rounds and they are among my favorite to load and shoot.  I really enjoy getting the most out of my 45 Colts too, so seeing all of this data is pretty cool.  I am not a deer or medium or big game hunter (not yet, but there is a lot of thought going into it though) rather just an avid shooter and seasonal varmint hunter.  It seems to me that from all of the hunter's past stories and experiences with both calibers that if you draw a bead on a deer within a hundred yards with your favorite custom loaded 45 Colt or a 30-30, the deer doesn't stand a chance!

All of this back and forth talk of pressures, velocity and momentum, terminal ballistics, etc. between custom loaded 45 Colts as compared to a 30-30 is pretty fun to read and compare statistics as a hand loader but does a few foot pounds of energy here or there really make all that much difference to a deer?   Does anyone really know how the deer feels about this?     Maybe we should ask them which works better?  

Sorry....I just thought we needed a little humor here and I was feeling a little cheesy.
 

[Dinny]

So if 454 cases are stronger, could you just trim them til they chamber in the BC? The better to tolerate +P loads.

Interesting thought.... Don't ask me why I ask, I really don't need more power from my 45LC Handi, but..... I wonder what the experts suggest?


Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

Here's a comparison of the  45 Colt +P Hodgdon load with the 250gr Speer @ 1900fps and 30-30Win 150gr Remington factory @ 2330fps, from my 20" BC Carbine and 30-30 Handi.

Tim

Trajectory for Speer .451 dia. 250 gr. GDHP (45 Colt) at 1900 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.165   0.165   0.165   0.165   0.165
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 800   800   800   800
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   1900.0   2003.6   2.11   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   1789.8   1777.8   1.99   -0.31   0.61   0.0   0.040673404
50   1684.2   1574.3   1.87   -1.31   2.23   0.0   0.083875493
75   1583.8   1392.3   1.76   -3.06   3.09   0.0   0.129801991
100   1489.1   1230.7   1.65   -5.69   3.08   0.0   0.178646924
125   1400.7   1089.0   1.55   -9.3   2.1   0.0   0.230589297
150   1319.4   966.1   1.46   -14.01   0.0   0.0   0.285776436
175   1245.9   861.5   1.38   -19.97   -3.34   0.0   0.344299458
200   1181.1   774.2   1.31   -27.33   -8.09   0.0   0.406160863


Trajectory for Remington .308 dia. 30-30 Win, 150 gr. SPCL at 2330 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.193   0.193   0.193   0.193   0.193
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1912   1912   1912   1912
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2330.0   1807.9   1.55   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   2223.2   1646.0   1.48   -0.21   -0.16   0.0   0.032952915
50   2119.2   1495.5   1.41   -0.85   0.95   0.0   0.067506091
75   2018.0   1356.1   1.34   -1.98   1.57   0.0   0.103774173
100   1919.7   1227.3   1.28   -3.65   1.66   0.0   0.141880077
125   1824.5   1108.6   1.22   -5.9   1.16   0.0   0.181955597
150   1732.7   999.8   1.15   -8.81   0.0   0.0   0.224139710
175   1644.4   900.5   1.10   -12.44   -1.88   0.0   0.268575099
200   1560.1   810.5   1.04   -16.87   -4.56   0.0   0.315405101

[wreckhog]

Looks like the hotrod .45lc is good to 125 yards while the factory 30-30 is good to 150 yards and a bit flatter trajectory.

[quickdtoo]

Here’s some data based on Remington’s data for their  30-30 Win 170gr ammo which will be a bit higher than in a Handi due to the 24” test barrel.

Tim

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R30302

Trajectory for Remington .308 dia. 30-30 Win, 170 gr. SPCL at 2000 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.254   0.254   0.254   0.254   0.254
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1760   1760   1760   1760
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2000.0   1509.6   1.51   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   1925.5   1399.2   1.45   -0.28   0.22   0.0   0.038219319
50   1852.7   1295.5   1.40   -1.14   1.55   0.0   0.077928887
75   1781.8   1198.3   1.34   -2.64   2.24   0.0   0.119208434
100   1712.9   1107.4   1.29   -4.82   2.26   0.0   0.162139764
125   1646.2   1022.7   1.24   -7.75   1.53   0.0   0.206805622
150   1581.6   944.1   1.19   -11.47   0.0   0.0   0.253288904
175   1519.5   871.4   1.15   -16.06   -2.4   0.0   0.301671407
200   1460.0   804.5   1.10   -21.6   -5.74   0.0   0.352030514

Here’s Paco’s 300 grain WFN/LBT 24/H110 32,500 CUP 1705 fps, the BC is calculated based on Beartooth bullets 300gr .452 LBT bullet length

Trajectory for Custom .452 300gr WFN LBT at 1705 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.184   0.184   0.184   0.184   0.184
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1705   1705   1705   1705
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   1705.0   1936.1   2.27   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   1613.8   1734.5   2.15   -0.39   1.02   0.0   0.045218378
50   1527.0   1552.9   2.03   -1.61   2.91   0.0   0.093001757
75   1445.0   1390.7   1.92   -3.76   3.87   0.0   0.143500242
100   1368.5   1247.2   1.82   -6.96   3.78   0.0   0.196846141
125   1297.7   1121.7   1.73   -11.32   2.54   0.0   0.253141745
150   1233.6   1013.5   1.64   -16.96   0.0   0.0   0.312440152
175   1176.5   921.9   1.57   -24.04   -3.96   0.0   0.374723830
200   1126.8   845.7   1.50   -32.68   -9.5   0.0   0.439893659

[GrampaMike]

When I load HOT 45 LC loads (Ruger/TC levels 30K) for my Rugers and TC and now 45 Colt Carbine.
I use 454 Casull cases trimmed to 45 Colt lengths and don't worry about the pressures.

[Blackhawker]

If cases are an issue for you guys, I've stated this on numerous threads:
I've been loading my 45 Colt loads for my Blackhawks, TC, my H&R CR-45, and in the past, my Winchester 94 Trapper with loads similar to what is listed on the Paco Kelly article using hard cast bullets of weights of 255 and 300 grains.  I've been using the same nickel plated R-P cases for over 15 years now and each has probably been loaded near, if not more than 10 times each.  I typically throw out less than 1% due to cracking even after all of these years.  With the exception of these occasional lateral cracks near the case mouth, I have seen no other types of case fatigue or failures. 

Now, I'm not using the extreme loads but without giving my specific load data, my pistol loads from the Blackhawk are roughly 1,100 to 1,200 fps with the 255 grain cast bullets.  I don't know what that translates to with the carbine but according to some of the articles such as Paco Kelly's, it's roughly 1,650 to 1,750 fps.  As for what kind of pressures I generate, I cannot say as pressures are powder specific and bullet specific and not necessarily related directly to velocity, as you all know.
In a nutshell, if you're not loading over pressures of 35,000 to 40,000 cup, don't worry about the 45 Colt cases.  (I'd worry more about lots of repetitive use in my revolver or rifle to be honest.)

One thing to note here however, (and I'm sure you all know this) be wary of not using jacketed bullet data for cast bullets.  I believe pressures are generated to much higher levels with cast bullets when using the corresponding jacketed data.  I'm sure many of you know or can verify this.
I think Dinny posted a bit of data showing a 360 grain HC bullet with data that Paco Kelly had shown with a cast bullet.  (sorry if I read that wrong Dinny ??)  I believe the HC bullet Dinny may have been referring to is a jacketed bullet.  Being that he stated cast data for a jacketed bullet, I would suspect the pressure to be actually lower than 48,000 cup.  Nonetheless, be wary when translating data from articles etc. as I wouldn't want to make a translation error or fool with and make changes to high pressure load data.  I only use what has been published and/or tested over and over by a reputable source.  I'm sure you all will agree that it's best to be safe when loading, especially when using high pressure data such as the above discussed.

Sorry, before I was trying to be funny, now I'm probably being too serious.   
Chris

[guns-o-fun]

For those telling us to just buy a 45-70 - nothing wrong with that, but if you have actually carried one of the 45LC BC carbines, you will understand why they are so popular.  For those of us "somewhat older folks" with tired blood who hunt in pretty rugged terrain, carrying a gun that is very light, balances beautifully, and looks darn good to boot, AND still does the job at hand is a BIG plus.  That's why I got mine.  I certainly have other guns with more power, but I have a soft spot for this little handi precisely for these reasons.  I like the idea of trimming down the 454 cases - but is it really necessary?

[Blackhawker]

For those telling us to just buy a 45-70 - nothing wrong with that, but if you have actually carried one of the 45LC BC carbines, you will understand why they are so popular.  For those of us "somewhat older folks" with tired blood who hunt in pretty rugged terrain, carrying a gun that is very light, balances beautifully, and looks darn good to boot, AND still does the job at hand is a BIG plus.  That's why I got mine.  I certainly have other guns with more power, but I have a soft spot for this little handi precisely for these reasons.  I like the idea of trimming down the 454 cases - but is it really necessary?

I couldn't agree more.  I have a 45-70 but the 45 Colt is so much fun to work with and shoot.  Plus, those little carbines (H&R CR-45 and Win 94's) are really fun to shoot, not to mention easy to lug around.  Another plus for the 45 Colt is that you can carry a side arm in the same caliber that is tote-able.

[blacksan]

For those of us "somewhat older folks" with tired blood who hunt in pretty rugged terrain, carrying a gun that is very light, balances beautifully, and looks darn good to boot, AND still does the job at hand is a BIG plus.  That's why I got mine.

You said it Brother!!! I cut every ounce I can when walking the mountains in this part of the world and enjoying nature....... 

[blacksan]

I like the idea of trimming down the 454 cases - but is it really necessary?

I don't think so. My history with the 45LC goes back several years and I had descent case life with atomic loads from my Ruger single action. I gave out long before the brass.............. 

[Mac11700]

Well..while the 45LC is a very nice cartridge..It's still classified as a pistol cartridge..and the ole debate of a big hole compared to a expanding bullet won't ever stop I think..2 different schools of thought..both correct in their own right..However...

Does it have more energy at 200 yards than a 30-30..Nope..nor would I really care to shoot at that distance with one..Even though the 30-30 is more than capable at that distance..It's still not a long range cartridge by any means..especially in factory ammo..Can it do more with handloads..sure it can.. so too can the 45lc..and anyone who has ever loaded either for it can attest to this fact..The 30-30 will out run the LC though...In factory loads or handloads..the 30-30 doing 2300-2500fps with any good BT bullet in a Handi will out pace them and out shoot them and retain more energy down range..

http://www.fusionammo.com/ballistics/rifle.aspx?id=652

Inside 100 yards I think it is a great cartridge...and would love to own one..along with a good Colt single action..but..to me the idea that it's somehow better down range than a rifle cartridge is kinda..well..funny. With wind drift and trajectory issues shooting low BC bullets at long distances..comparing the 2 is apples to mango's..They each have their place in history..and both are still going strong..Both will take game..and both are offered in a Handi..but..one is still a pistol cartridge..and the other is still a rifle cartridge..

Mac

[guns-o-fun]

Agreed, agreed: a pistol cartridge is a pistol cartridge.  However, this whole thread started out with a comparison by Paco Kelly of warm to hot 45LC handloads to most factory 30-30 win ammo as shot from lever guns - and the comparison was favorable.  That should just reassure those of us who like to carry this very, very handy little handi of its effectiveness even beyond 100 yards.  After all, tons of venison have gone in the freezer at the hands of hunters carrying 30-30 lever guns shooting factory ammo.  If I want plenty of energy at longer ranges, I would hunt some place flatter and lug along my 35 Whelen bolt gun with its heavy magnum contour barrel, my 338-06 remy pump, or something else with more power, range and (ugh) weight.  For trudging up steep hills to the deeper woods where the deer go due to hunting pressure, I'll take the little, light 45LC carbine instead.  As Tom Horn might have said, "That's my final word on the subject."

[gendoc]

amen  guns-o-fun... from another happy 45colt shooter...

[blacksan]

I'm not trying to be adversarial here but will offer another perspective from hands-on experience in bleeding out all sorts of natures creation to accomplish a goal no matter what it might curtail. When energy of a prospective projectile is expended in it's intended target it is much more beneficial then punching on through without expansion, hydro-shock, residual damage, etc. Bullet placement is the key and when the heart sack is full of blood it guarantees continued mobility of the target. Instant incapacitation can result from damage to the nervous system, such as a brain or spinal cord injury, destruction of bodily extremities, or from psychological collapse in mammals that realize the situation. I guess what I'm trying to say is knowing ones own limitations and familiarity with the weapon and ammunition means more in the real world then ballistic figures derived from a manual with fallible/controlled statistic variables.

 

[gendoc]

hey blacksan... you got it go'n on dude!!!!
thatsa what i'm talk'n bout 

[blacksan]

hey blacksan... you got it go'n on dude!!!!
thatsa what i'm talk'n bout 

Ahhhhh, long story from many years of professional experience, nothing new or profound my friend......... 

[gendoc]

i can tell, well put...if i say so my-own-self 

[Mac11700]

Agreed, agreed: a pistol cartridge is a pistol cartridge.  However, this whole thread started out with a comparison by Paco Kelly of warm to hot 45LC handloads to most factory 30-30 win ammo as shot from lever guns - and the comparison was favorable.  That should just reassure those of us who like to carry this very, very handy little handi of its effectiveness even beyond 100 yards.  After all, tons of venison have gone in the freezer at the hands of hunters carrying 30-30 lever guns shooting factory ammo.  If I want plenty of energy at longer ranges, I would hunt some place flatter and lug along my 35 Whelen bolt gun with its heavy magnum contour barrel, my 338-06 remy pump, or something else with more power, range and (ugh) weight.  For trudging up steep hills to the deeper woods where the deer go due to hunting pressure, I'll take the little, light 45LC carbine instead.  As Tom Horn might have said, "That's my final word on the subject."

I agree..in a Lever Gun..the 30-30 used to be about on equal footing for the most part..but with newer factory loads..that is no longer the case..and while Paco Kelly's article is about leverguns..isn't why you posted about it because the 45LC is in a Handi...? Also..how much less does your 45LC carbine weigh as opposed to one in a 30-30? One can always load up the 30-30 rather warm too...even in a lever gun..

The beauty here I see...in a flash..one can go from the 30-30 to the 45LC...on the same frame and stocks..so..I think in this case..the person who has either in a Handi is the real winner

Mac

[guns-o-fun]

Amen, brother! Now, that really is my final word on the subject.

[Doublebass73]

For those telling us to just buy a 45-70 - nothing wrong with that, but if you have actually carried one of the 45LC BC carbines, you will understand why they are so popular.  For those of us "somewhat older folks" with tired blood who hunt in pretty rugged terrain, carrying a gun that is very light, balances beautifully, and looks darn good to boot, AND still does the job at hand is a BIG plus.  That's why I got mine.  I certainly have other guns with more power, but I have a soft spot for this little handi precisely for these reasons.  I like the idea of trimming down the 454 cases - but is it really necessary?

You summed it up very nicely here. I hunt mountainous terrain that is thickly wooded. 100 yards is a very long shot where I hunt. The 45 Carbine can be carried one handed all day long. The balance is perfect. It's all I really need for deer hunting in my area.

[Tom Threetoes]

I'll take the .45 CC just because it's cute, light, legal for deer in Indiana, and the 30-30 isn't! If it measures up close to the 30-30, so much the better.

[clearwater]

From the Hornady web site.  30-30 leverevo round.

    *  Up to 250 feet per second faster muzzle velocity than conventional lever gun loads.
    * Exceptional accuracy and overwhelming downrange terminal performance.
    * Patented FTX bullet featuring Flex Tip Technology.
    * Up to 40% more energy than traditional flat point loads.

40% more energy!

[cwlongshot]

From the Hornady web site.  30-30 leverevo round.

    * Up to 40% more energy than traditional flat point loads.

40% more energy!

YES, but only AT LONGER RANGES,

Its simply the result of a higher Ballistic Coefficient projectile. Or a pointy, streamlined bullets retain energy and velocity FAR better then bullets closer to a round shape.

Not poo pooing this as its a boon to all shooting this great old round. But the loadings of this round is limited to SAAMI specs and 40,000 cup. SO minor increases result from modern powders, but the biggest reason for this statement is the direct result of the bullets profile.

CW

[Blackhawker]

From the Hornady web site.  30-30 leverevo round.

    * Up to 40% more energy than traditional flat point loads.

40% more energy!

YES, but only AT LONGER RANGES,

Its simply the result of a higher Ballistic Coefficient projectile. Or a pointy, streamlined bullets retain energy and velocity FAR better then bullets closer to a round shape.

Not poo pooing this as its a boon to all shooting this great old round. But the loadings of this round is limited to SAAMI specs and 40,000 cup. SO minor increases result from modern powders, but the biggest reason for this statement is the direct result of the bullets profile.

CW

You bring up a really good point CW.  I always shoot pointed bullets from my 30-30 contender for better/longer flight.  I wonder, has anyone ever seen or tried pointed bullets in a 45 Colt?  They make em for 45-70's, so I wonder if one could find 45 caliber bullets in .452 for a 45 Colt rifle. 
Just a thought.....

[quickdtoo]

I wonder, has anyone ever seen or tried pointed bullets in a 45 Colt?  They make em for 45-70's, so I wonder if one could find 45 caliber bullets in .452 for a 45 Colt rifle. 
Just a thought.....

Yup! 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,124487.msg1098436387.html#msg1098436387

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,126722.msg1098453712.html#msg1098453712

[Mac11700]

From the Hornady web site.  30-30 leverevo round.

    * Up to 40% more energy than traditional flat point loads.

40% more energy!

YES, but only AT LONGER RANGES,

Its simply the result of a higher Ballistic Coefficient projectile. Or a pointy, streamlined bullets retain energy and velocity FAR better then bullets closer to a round shape.

Not poo pooing this as its a boon to all shooting this great old round. But the loadings of this round is limited to SAAMI specs and 40,000 cup. SO minor increases result from modern powders, but the biggest reason for this statement is the direct result of the bullets profile.

CW

Splain this to me...What are you limiting to SAAMI specs...both..or just the 30-30...? If both are limited to SAAMI specs...the 30-30 will win hands down..If your talking about running the 45LC at 42,000psi..and limiting the 30-30..then yes..the bigger heavier bullet at near the velocity of the lighter bullet will win.....I thought the 30-30 was 42,000PSi..http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm..Let's see...the 45LC SAAMI rating is 17,000 PSI...the 30-30 is 42,000psi...Your raising the threshold up by 25,000psi on the 45LC...but limiting the 30-30..is this correct?


Mac

[guns-o-fun]

If you read the original post, you will see that Kelly's article has the following basis:  we have pretty strong lever guns, including the puma model 92 which is a modern version of Browning's original strong Winchester 92 action.  Given that (and of course, all the more so with the stronger Handi SB2 action) we can load some pretty potent 45LC rounds.  Let's compare the capabilities of those to STANDARD factory 30-30 rounds...Now, as I said above, everybody knows that the standard 30-30 rounds have taken a bizillion deer over its many years of use.  Therefore, we can take comfort in the abilities of the 45LC in a rifle to do the same.  That's it!  This was never a p1@@zing match over which was more effective with hot loads or more modern ammo.

[Mac11700]

Therefore, we can take comfort in the abilities of the 45LC in a rifle to do the same.

Well heck...didn't know is was a urinating match...and I never new that was even in question about it the cartridge...even with just standard loadings in the 45lc...I thought the whole shebang was on downrange part.. This is sort of like which is more powerful..the 444 or the 45-70 downrange..or even the 45LC hotrodded vs the trapdoor 45-70...Good grief...

Mac