45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?

[guns-o-fun]

You all have probably seen this, but I had not yet.  Very interesting - he uses Keith's old stopping power formula and claims that the 45 Colt from a rifle (his context is lever guns, of course) is more potent than the 30-30 at a 100 yards and beyond.  This is Paco Kelly saying this - not me.  Have a look if you are one of the 45 LC BC owners that seem to be growing in number.  I, personally accept no liability here.  It's all up to you.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[Mike in Virginia]

I shoot a 300 grn. hardcast over a way-less-than-magnum from my Ruger 4 5/8 barrel, and it has never failed to stop a deer.  I only imagine what it would do from a rifle.  When I can by a new Handi, it will be in 45LC.   

[cwlongshot]

YEP, that's just the way it is... 

 Just to stir the pot... it can be loaded to exceed the 44Maggie with LESS pressures and identical weight projectiles as well!!!

CW

[petemi]

A very interesting read especially since I have a .45LC BC on the way.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

I got a little over 1900fps with the 250gr Speer GDHP from my 20" BC Carbine barrel, data is Hodgdon 250gr with Lil'gun, that's as high as I went, but with more range work, that could be bested if desired. I rechambered it to 460S&W, accuracy is not quite as good with 250gr Hornady SSTs at 2400fps.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,118881.msg1098392036.html#msg1098392036

[gendoc]

i'd say yes.....
a 30/30 in rifle ballistics with 150gr factory loads produces 1042 ft-lbs energy @ 100yrds
while 45colt handgun ballistics with a 300gr +p factory load produces 1041 ft-lbs of energy@ 100yrds

keep in mind, the colt is from a handgun.... with lots of wasted muzzle energy.
can you imagine what it would do in a 20" rifle barrel  

that just my onion-----

no manufacturers info on these factory loads

i'd say try it on a piece of 1/2 plate steel....
i'd go for the colt..... chunk'n weight !!!!

[petemi]

Question.  How's the .445 ballistics compare to the .45LC?  Soon to have both.  I can't find anything on the .445 out of a 22 inch rifle.

Pete

[gendoc]

pete, can't help ya there...
my info doesnot cover the .445 
i wood guess the .445 should have better down range energy with a 300gr than the colt.
i ain't got a clue what weight bullet is offered

[dpe.ahoy]

Pete, the only thing I can find is Sierra 300 gr JSP out of a 14" TC barrel at 1800 fps, or Accurate 1680 at 1682fps with the 300gr Speer, no barrel length listed, I'm guessing the same 14".  This came out of a Complete Reloading Manual for the TC Contender listing 30 calibers from .17 Bumble Bee thru the 45-70.  DP

[gendoc]

more power to me means.... energy not speed
but thats me. 

[Plainsman]

 "If you multiply the velocity times the bullet weight, and then divide by 7000"

This is similar to the Taylor Knockdown Formula (TKO), TKO value = [ Weight (gm) x Terminal Velocity (m/s) x calibre (mm) x 1.996 ] ÷ 7000.

The thing that has to be remembered is that both of these formulas only take into account the Bullet Weight and the Bullet Velocity.  This means that both bullets must be the same design!  Both of these typically use a cast lead bullet, normally a round nose design.  Therefore, to compare a .451" 250gr LRN to a .308" 150gr BTHP would be meaningless.  Bullet design has come a LONG way since those formulas were established in the first half of the 20th Century or earlier!

This might be an interesting read for some!
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

That's my thoughts!

[quickdtoo]

Question.  How's the .445 ballistics compare to the .45LC?  Soon to have both.  I can't find anything on the .445 out of a 22 inch rifle.

Pete

Digger just posted 22" Handi velocities in his overbore 445SM, close kin to your barrel Pete! 

Tim

The 445 was very popular about 3 yrs ago around here.I was the first to do one as I recall and alot of guy's said it would'nt work as well as it did.After I chrono'ed my loads and they came to within 125 fps. of the 444 and shot better than the 44 mag did. 10 or 12 guy's reamed there's also,and the accurcy improved with the oversized bore's(.432) The 265 gr. hornady bullets were hitting 2265 fps with a near max load of 296,and the 300gr. XTP's were doing 1975 fps. They were doing this in everyone's 445 and was the best big caliber I ever used on hogs and deer. The 44 mag's shot as well as before also.All this came from 31 to 32 grs. of 296,which is alot less than the 45 70 use's to get that velocity,with about 75%of the recoil of the 45 70. Its a good caliber and it would really be something if the leverguns were to be chambered for it.( wake up Marlin) Start a kid out hunting with the 44 spl. or 44 mag,and then on to the 445.   Something to think about     Digger

Here's AA's data from a 14" barrel...

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/44Cal(10.97mm)/445%20Super%20Mag%20page%20136.pdf

Exterior Ballistics comparison at the same velocity for both...

Trajectory for Hornady .430 dia. (44 cal) 300 gr HP/XTP at 1975 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.245   0.245   0.245   0.245   0.245
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 880   880   880   880
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   1975.0   2597.9   2.63   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   1898.4   2400.2   2.53   -0.29   0.27   0.0   0.038734123
50   1823.7   2215.1   2.43   -1.17   1.64   0.0   0.079043477
75   1751.0   2042.1   2.33   -2.72   2.36   0.0   0.121014767
100   1680.6   1881.2   2.24   -4.97   2.36   0.0   0.164736500
125   1612.5   1731.9   2.15   -7.99   1.6   0.0   0.210297688
150   1547.0   1593.8   2.06   -11.84   0.0   0.0   0.257787209
175   1484.1   1466.9   1.98   -16.61   -2.51   0.0   0.307290806
200   1424.1   1350.7   1.90   -22.36   -6.0   0.0   0.358887494

 
Trajectory for Hornady .451 dia. (45 cal) 300 gr. XTP Mag at 1975 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.2   0.2   0.2   0.2   0.2
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 800   800   800   800
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   1975.0   2597.9   2.63   0.0   -1.7   0.0   0.000000000
25   1881.4   2357.5   2.51   -0.29   0.35   0.0   0.038908851
50   1790.7   2135.7   2.39   -1.19   1.79   0.0   0.079771145
75   1703.2   1932.2   2.27   -2.77   2.55   0.0   0.122718020
100   1619.2   1746.3   2.16   -5.1   2.56   0.0   0.167882762
125   1538.9   1577.4   2.05   -8.26   1.74   0.0   0.215398676
150   1462.7   1425.0   1.95   -12.33   0.0   0.0   0.265394060
175   1390.9   1288.5   1.85   -17.42   -2.75   0.0   0.317984339
200   1324.0   1167.5   1.76   -23.64   -6.63   0.0   0.373264490

[petemi]

Thanks guys, if they're that good out of a 14 inch, it should be sweeter out of a 22 inch   I don't know why Marlin doesn't chamber their leverguns for the .357 Maximum and the .445 Super.

Pete

[guns-o-fun]

Plainsman,

Well, yes bullet differences will always have a major influence, but there is nothing in the basic physics that says so.  The site quoted states that "One can think of energy absorption (of a target) as Force x Distance, and momentum absorption as Force x Time."  Force x Distance is just work.  The work done is the creation of the wound channel.  It's not clear to me why momentum absorption is necessarily Force x Time, but momentum certainly does determine how any object (including tissue, bone, etc.) will move when the object carrying the momentum encounters it, and the greater the momentum, the greater the movement.  We all know that bullets make a big difference - including whether they are fired at the appropriate velocity to expand properly, not break off expanded petals, etc. etc. etc., let alone the effects of sectional density and all that...I still think Paco's comparison is valid as far as it goes.

PS: I don't think too many folks are shooting BTHPs from 30-30 lever guns.  Most of the bullets, other than Hornady XTPs, are pretty similar to bullets loaded for the 45 LC.

[eskimo36]

All this talk of heating up the 45 colt leads me to think the same heat applied to the 30-30 leaves you back where you started....
The 30-30 can be loaded hotter than any manual lists in a handi..... 

to each their own and the fun is in the safe performance based loading of our handi's...

[gendoc]

TRUE,  ifin ya look'n fer a DRT comparison....
i can do it with a hornet, just as good as a 45/70  its called

SHOT PLACEMENT...

[Spanky]

You can't compare a hot rodded 45 to a plain jane 30-30 round.
Hot rod the 30-30 the same way and check the numbers.



Spanky

[RangerJ]

You can't compare a hot rodded 45 to a plain jane 30-30 round.
Hot rod the 30-30 the same way and check the numbers.



Spanky

^^^^^^ What he said. I have some pretty hot loads for my 30-30's that are above what any manual lists as a max load.

[Spanky]

i'd say yes.....
a 30/30 in rifle ballistics with 150gr factory loads produces 1042 ft-lbs energy @ 100yrds
while 45colt handgun ballistics with a 300gr +p factory load produces 1041 ft-lbs of energy@ 100yrds

keep in mind, the colt is from a handgun.... with lots of wasted muzzle energy.
can you imagine what it would do in a 20" rifle barrel 

that just my onion-----

no manufacturers info on these factory loads

i'd say try it on a piece of 1/2 plate steel....
i'd go for the colt..... chunk'n weight !!!!

Where did you get those numbers? I just checked Remington's site and the 30-30 with 150's have almost 1300 ft/lbs. of energy at 100 yds.

So that would mean that the 45 hot rodded to death is still lacking 200 ft/lbs. at 100. as compared to standard 30-30 ammo.
Now hot rod the 30-30 the same way and what are you gonna get? There really is no way that the 45 can best the 30-30.
Standard loads for the 45 (according to Rem's chart) can't even break 500 ft/lbs. at the muzzle.
It's apples to oranges.



Spanky

[guns-o-fun]

Paco Kelly was not comparing to hot handloads - only to factory 30-30 rounds for lever guns.  If you want some really hot 30-30 loads, he has an article about that, too.  Those are some awesome loads - not your grandaddy's 30-30!  The point here is that the 45 LC in rilfe loads is more than adequate for medium sized game even beyond 100 yards.

[Dee]

I think the 357 mag in 158 grain will do that out to about 120 yds, but just like the 45LC, because of its' shape, caliber and velocity the 3030 will win out past about 135 yards. If ole Paco takes that into consideration then he's thinking. If he doesn't I think he's just another gun rag writer. But I think he's the later any way.

[Spanky]

I think the 357 mag in 158 grain will do that out to about 120 yds,

I'll tell ya Dee. I don't know much about the numbers between the 357 and 30-30 but I do know I wouldn't hesitate to put one in a deer at 120 yds. with my 357. I can see why everybody either has one or wants one... they shoot great.



Spanky

[Dinny]

24/H110 1660 fps/ 48,000 CUP---That's a 45LC with 350gr HC bullet!!!!


Versatility is the name of the game, one can go from a Cowboy action load at 800fps all the way up to 1600+fps with a 360gr bullet.

Good data to have...

Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

24/H110 1660 fps/ 48,000 CUP---That's a 45LC with 350gr HC bullet!!!!

It's also WAY over SAAMI MAP for Colt +P data! Everything I can find says Ruger/TC is 25kcup, but Hodgdon lists data to 30kcup. Any way you look at it, 48kcup is pushing the limits of the brass which is pointed out in the article below. You can only get so much out of a cartridge due to case capacity, if you want to push it, rechamber to 445 or Casull depending on which you prefer, .44 or .45....or better yet, quit playing around and get serious with a .444 or 45-70!! 

44mag 37.9gr water

445 Supermag 47.6gr

45 Colt 42gr

454 Casull 44.7gr

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aicompare.cgi?sn=VCQAHuLjkJ&loadset=52&xxglbl=1



Tim

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm


The strength of .45 Long Colt cases

The following is a direct quote from the Sierra Reloading Manual.

"Although it has internal capacity comparable to that of the .44 Magnum, the thickness and strength of the .45 Colt cartridge case is much less than that of the .44 Magnum, imposing a limiting factor upon the older cartridge which cannot be avoided."

And this is a quote from the Speer Reloading Manual.

"Some handloaders have assembled .45 Colt loads that exceed the pressures of the .44 Magnum! The .45 Colt case is not as strong as the .44 Magnum case and you must not attempt to load it as high, regardless of the gun model."

The following quote is again from the section of the Speer Reloading Manual devoted to high pressure .45 Colt loads for the Blackhawk and Contender.

"We recommend that these loads be used in new or once-fired cases known to be of recent manufacture."

That alone is enough commentary on the .45 Colt case to make me cautious, even if I hadn't read the other warnings. I can't recall ever reading any such caution regarding .357, .41, or .44 Magnum cases. I can tell you as an experienced reloader that I get much better case life from all .44 Magnum reloads than I do from standard pressure loads in .45 Colt brass.

[RangerJ]

24/H110 1660 fps/ 48,000 CUP---That's a 45LC with 350gr HC bullet!!!!

 if you want to push it, rechamber to 445 or Casull depending on which you prefer, .44 or .45....or better yet, quit playing around and get serious with a .444 or 45-70!! 

I second that

[guns-o-fun]

Amen to steering clear of way high pressure loads in 45LC cases.  Careful Dinny.  When I posted the Kelly article to begin with, I thought it would be of interest to all those, who like me, have recently become proud owners of the 45 LC BC carbine.  I would hope that anyone would use any loads off the internet with extreme caution.  I have read the very warnings that Tim posted about the strength of 45LC cases before and I believe what they are saying.  I mostly thought that the comparison to typical 30-30 factory loads would reinforce the idea that 45LC in a handi is definitely up to the task of taking medium game - even beyond 100 yards.  Be safe.

[Dinny]

Amen to steering clear of way high pressure loads in 45LC cases.  Careful Dinny. 

No worries here guys, I use H Lil Gun to push the CP 360gr bullets to about 1200fps.  I'm betting the pressure is much less than 48,000 CUP.

Thanks for your concerns, Dinny

[cwlongshot]

Just a word, we have had similar posts a couple times and it always comes why not just hot load the other caliber...

 The 45 Colt is a OLD TIMER, it was loaded to a VERY lo pressure, For a number of reasons, extremely weak balloon head cases where but one. 16,000 cup, like the 32-20 and others. So with better brass and modern steel, combined with its popularity its natural to load it up. Now the 30-30 is an old timer as well, but wasn't saddled with a weak case of firearm. Its loaded closer to 40,000cup. SO, keeping the playing field even and with in say 35,000 cup. MAN the 45 COLT shines. Surpassing the 30-30 and a couple others as well!!
 Just another word on cases, they are made of brass, being so do literally nothing to retain the tremendous pressures produced by the rapidly expanding gasses. It is plainly and simply a vessel designed to hold the primer, powder and bullet. IF it where needed for pressure retention it would be made of some stronger material. Now there are certain brass designs needed to for it to work within the realm of that calibers pressure levels. Like I mentioned earlier, the old 45 colt balloon head cases, these where so thin thru the base that once the change to smokeless powder came to be problems arose with them. They where redesigned as other cases are now and problems ceased. With high pressure rounds, like say 454. Its case web is a bit thicker and its made for a small primer. This is to better support the 60,000 cup this caliber reaches. So its not holding the pressures, its rather withstanding it.

Certainly one could load the 30-30 to say 50,000 cup in a bolt or SS firearm and exceen what the colt would do, but I offer that THAT would not be an equal playing field.

JMHOs,
 CW

[Doublebass73]

The bottom line for me is the .45 Colt has plenty to get the job done at 100 yards on whitetail and the carbine carries much nicer than an SB2 30-30 Handi. I'm a huge 30-30 fan but I'll take the .45 Colt Carbine any day. The old Topper 30-30's on the other hand are even lighter then the .45's. I wish they still made them like that.

[coues2506]

This thread is just goofy - why spend money on an inferior caliber nef in .45 colt? Go directly to 45-70 if you need some power!