Author Topic: reb or yank  (Read 17267 times)

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Offline TimWieneke

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« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2004, 02:33:51 PM »
I'm really asking for trouble with this, but oh well...

If I were living during that time, I have no idea.  Looking back historically I would have to say Yank.

No matter what you say the war was "really about" (every time there's a war, someone makes money - it's a fact of life) the fact remains that slavery did not begin to disappear until the war.

Here's another hot button issue - wasn't it the South that started gun control in America 1865 in response to the emancipation of slaves?  How does that sit with reb/gun owners here?

As an aside question to any "rooting for the underdog" and "the north was fighting on the South's land".... is the underdog always right?  Who was the underdog in Afghanistan?  Weren't we fighting on their land?  Apples and oranges comparisons aside (cw wasn't a post 9-11 world), are these completely unfair questions to ask?


Tim

P.S.  I hope that these comments won't be taken as going off-topic - what I am trying to do is stay philosophically on-topic by citing other historical examples.

Offline filmokentucky

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« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2004, 04:15:48 PM »
My folks have been in New England since 1635 or so and my ancestors fought with the 18th Connecticut . That said, and leaving aside politics and such, I have the utmost respect for the southern boys who fought so long and so gallantly with so little. Seldom in history have men risen to such heights in defence of their beliefs and their homes.              
   Perhaps the fact that after all these years we still have such strong feelings about this sad period in our history is a fitting memorial to all the brave men who fought and died in that tragic bloodletting.
   I guess being born and raised up here makes me a Yankee, but I do see both sides of the coin. I do know that I love the rich history of the period and I enjoy using the weapons of the period and I look forward to this forum---it is informative and stimulating.
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Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2004, 09:14:24 PM »
TimWieneke,
First welcome.Second, I dont get the whole "wasn't it the South that started gun control in America 1865 in response to the emancipation of slaves? " question, maybe you can point to some hisorical fact about this and we can run it up the pole.
Also,I dont get you underdog thing, your whole trainof thought has me wondering if ya posted what your were thinking or mis posted  or something.
To compair the War of Northern Aggression with the War on Terror just shows me that your grasp of the WoNA is very odd at best.Check your history and get back to us, but the last time I checked the Union invaded the South for reasons that still to this day are in doubt, but I think any amount of brains will tell a person that the reasons that the United States has attacked Afganistan and Iraq are in no way in doubt, these people were and are clear dangers to the Western World and had been involved or were akin to the 9-11 attacks.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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Offline Gratman

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« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2004, 09:22:32 AM »
My Great Great Grandad was a Union Soldier from eastern Ky.   BUT, he mustered in for the horse and the rifle.......went home afterward , and put in the crop..came back, and they treated him as a deserter.....G G Grandad on the OTHER side was a confederate soldier.....I decided to end the feud and attended OLE MISS.  Best education in the south...Long live the Southern way of life....and all the GOOD that came from there. God Bless the University of Mississippi
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Offline TimWieneke

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Thank you
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2004, 04:32:05 AM »
Thank you for the welcome El Federado.  I'll do my best to anwer your questions completely.

"I dont get the whole "wasn't it the South that started gun control in America 1865 in response to the emancipation of slaves? " question, maybe you can point to some hisorical fact about this and we can run it up the pole."

I'm referring to the "black codes" of 1865 - among which was the prohibition of "black persons" possessing firearms.  Sounds like gun control to me.  For the record, I left out Georgia's 1837 attempt to ban handguns because this was an attempt at policy that was not adopted as it was ruled unconstitutional.

Now in response to your statement:  "Also,I dont get you underdog thing.... these people were and are clear dangers to the Western World and had been involved or were akin to the 9-11 attacks".

First I'll assume that the comment "any amount of brains will tell a person" was meant in the best intentions  :D  so with the best intentions I'll reply that any amount of brains will read in my original post that I acknowledged there was an apples and oranges comparison if you tried to make a direct correlation between the Civil War and the War on Terror.  I also noted that the Civil War was not a post 9/11 world.

My intent was to question the philosophy of "rooting for the underdog" as a reason to support the South in the Civil War or any side in any war.  If you look at my original line of questions, the first was "Is the underdog always right?"  Depending on how you answer to this question - you have to consider it in relation to the next questions concerning the War on Terror.  If you philosophically "root for the underdog" then you have to do it across the board otherwise it is an inconsistent system of justifying one's position.  So then, if you do not always support the underdog, you have to have another reason for supporting the position of the South in the Civil War.

Tim

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2004, 07:03:32 PM »
Tim,
I ment no offence with the brains thing , it was just used as the expressionitive way.As for the black codes, even after the Constitutions was changed to give colored folks the same rights that the whites had, most Southerners and Northerners I may had, didn't feel that the Coloreds could think as men, therefore in most if not all Southern States they were not allowed to keep arms, also the fact that many blacks during the early part of Reconstruction took to attacking many whites that they felt were at falt for them being slavers. That being said I dont falt those foplks from banning Coloreds from having arms, wsasd it right, can't say, I wasnt there and I wont judge them by todays standards.As for the underdog, they are not always right, as a matter of fact for the most part they are wrong.As for why I support what the Confederacy did, it is because I feel they were right, just and had the Constitutional basis for doing what they did.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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Offline BIGBOREFAN

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« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2004, 05:32:13 AM »
Well if I had to decide on what I knew in the past I would be a Yank because I never believed in slavery. But the more I read this forum I learn it was more than that just slavery. I never knew about the tax money I heard spoken here. I would like to learn a lot more about the Civil War. Maybe some of you guys could point me to some good reading about it. As for the North invading the South I would have done the same thing the Southerners did. Protect my family, land, and way of life. Guess I'm kind of split. 75% Reb and 25% yank. 100% God fearing, RED-WHITE-and BLUE AMERICAN.


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LETS GO STEELER'S. BIG BEN JUST KEEPS ON TICKEN. STEELER'S IN JACKSONVILLE THIS YEAR!

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2004, 07:27:10 PM »
BigBore,

Go out and get a copy of "Battle Cry of Freedon" it will wake you up and leave ya pissed and ready for a fight.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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Offline BIGBOREFAN

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« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2004, 02:17:36 AM »
Thanks El Confederado I'll try and find that book.


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LETS GO STEELER'S. BIG BEN JUST KEEPS ON TICKEN. STEELER'S IN JACKSONVILLE THIS YEAR!

Offline doc_kreipke

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« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2004, 06:05:30 AM »
I second EC's recommendation. Widely available, easy to find.

But I'm curious, EC, as to what about the book got ya all riled up. I recently read it from a "neutral observer" frame of mind and found it to be a rather academic discussion of the Civil War period. Prof. McPherson seems not to affix either white hats or black hats to either side. After finishing it, I felt more enlightened than agitated.
-K

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2004, 06:38:00 AM »
Howdy Doc, how ya been?

Anyhow it's not that the book go my dander up, it was the infomation.There were things that I had never heard of before that I read in the book and looked farther into and found that he was right.I do have to say that it is the best 'middle of the road" book on information on the War I have ever read.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2004, 05:50:49 PM »
I have been living with this Reb or Yank thing all my life. It has never made much sense to me.
We have issues which are cultural, regional, ideological to this day and will continue to have them til the day this world ends.
We are a people of vast cultural backgrounds and culture is the key, I think. All i could ever remember was folks saying other folks were different from us. All I could remember thinking was who said were were all alike. I felt they were imposing on me to be the way they thought I should be, as if I had no choice but to think what they wanted me to think.
To me if I wanted to make up my own mind about anything then I would have to give other folks that same consideration, even though I was very opposed to it.
Now if I was pressed to give an opinion I was going to do it openly and honestly and I did and still do. The amazing thing is that those who asked the opinion were shocked and dismayed if that opinion was contrary to what they wanted to hear. Generally the response is one of attack and slander.
Now the question I must ask is "why do we ask a question and then get upset if the thought process is different from what we want to hear"?
Now ya got to remember, nobody knows me, knows if I am Black, White, Brown, Yellow or English, Spanish, French, Chek, Slav, Russian, Irish or Syrian. I will tell you I am adopted Jewish but you may not take time to understand this.
This whole thing is a moot point and serves no good purpose.
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Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2004, 07:37:03 PM »
William,
I dont see anyone getting way out over the Reb or Yank question and to some it is not a moot point, you can tell alot about a person depending on how they answer the Reb or Yank question.Now if you still feel it is such a moot point, dont visit the thread, but please dont try to cast stones at those that dont feel it is a moot point and just dont bother look at the thread anymore, see everyone is happy, you wont have to talk about this moot point and folks wont have to hear you call it a moot point. See everyone gets what they want.
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Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
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( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2004, 02:51:34 AM »
Well OK, how bout Texan.
Blessings
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Offline TimWieneke

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Good to talk this out.
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2004, 06:47:38 PM »
Hi Confed,
 
"I ment no offence with the brains thing" -  I didn't think you did.  Your posts strike me as the posts of a gentleman.

"As for why I support what the Confederacy did, it is because I feel they were right, just and had the Constitutional basis for doing what they did."  That's a fair answer.  I'm not sure I can fully agree with you, but I can agree to disagree with you.   :-)

As far as the banning of "black persons" (I'll use the language of the time) from owning firearms, I still can't agree with this and I do fault the people of the time for doing this.   The idea of banning an entire race from owning firearms because there might be some dangerous members of that group - I just can't accept it.  The precedent is far too dangerous to freedom and we have to remember that these were methods of "control".  Today we're being fed these same methods of "control" and frankly it ticks me off knowing the evil roots of this type of legislative "control" and how it is "so good for our children".

BTW - I'm with Layton.  Didn't quite know how to express it before, but I prefer a "side" and a culture where a man had to prove himself as an individual.

Tim

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2004, 06:06:31 AM »
Tim,
I didn't say I agreed with how they did it, I just understood it. I feel the banning of right to bear arms to any man is evil, for to ban him the use of arms to to pull his Constitutional teeth, however , one has to remember that at that time Blacks were second class citizens and not given the full glories of our Constitution, is that wrong, from our way of looking at it, hell yes, from their way and a their time, it was a grand idea.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
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Offline NH_Hunter

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« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2004, 07:00:42 AM »
Well, that is a good question, the original one. My ancestors lived in Skandinavia and didnt come over to this great country until the early 1900's. But, if i was alive and of age at the time, I would probably have been a yank because i just cant stand the thought of slavery. It gives me chills just thinking about how Americans used to practice it. Good thing my ancestors werent around at the time!

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Offline bigbore442001

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« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2004, 10:43:43 AM »
Hmm. I would have to say I am neither. I am somewhat inclined to being a rebel but I am not Southern. My ancestors came from Poland in the 1890's. and settled in southern New England. By our definition of'Yankee" you haev to be someone of English or Scotch-Irish ancestry as well as Protestant. So. I really don't see myself as a "yankee" .

I would have to say that I hate when people state that teh Civil War was fought over slavery. The institution known as slavery would have died out in another 20 years or less as machinery was replacing the slave labor.

Another dimension to add is that although slavery was a tough existance, was it that much better for immigrants just off the boat in some big eastern cities?Some authors state they were all in the same boat.

Offline jdt48653

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« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2004, 02:30:04 PM »
so if the war was not about slavery,why was it ok to have slaves!
and why were they there! were all mankind created equal or not?
and do you think blacks are less then whites?do you like blacks!

Offline trick45

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« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2004, 07:13:32 PM »
See the discussion under "Funny thing" for more on this topic.

Quote
so if the war was not about slavery,why was it ok to have slaves!


The war was a general culture war. Rural South vs. Urban North, Agricultural South vs. Industrial North, Aristocratic South vs. Meritocratic North... you get the idea. Slavery was part of the Southern culture. It was "OK" to have slaves in the South in 1861 because it was a part of the culture. It was legal under the constitution. However, it was certainly morally questionable by 1861, and it wasn't part of the Northern culture, which was ascendant at the time.

Quote
and why were they there! were all mankind created equal or not?


They were there because the agricultural system in place in the South, that of cash-crop farming, depended on manual labor, and since there was no wage labor pool available, as there was for the industrial North, the South maintained chattel slavery. Certainly, all mankind is created equal. From our perspective, we can see and say that no man or woman should ever be another's property. Not everyone saw it that way back then. There was more of the biblical sense of human dignity in the presence of slavery. (Slavery was a simple fact of life in biblical times.) We can't understand it that way today. I sure don't. Perhaps in the future, our acceptance of wage labor will be seen in a similar light. (The Jeffersonian ideal is that no person ever works for another, either as a slave or as a wage earner. Everyone is a free and independent contractor. That didn't stop Jefferson from owning slaves or hiring laborers, though. Ayn Rand would follow this ideal through to its natural conclusion with the philosophy of Objectivism.)

Quote
and do you think blacks are less then whites?do you like blacks!


I can't answer for the person this refers to. I can say, for myself, in the words of the Monty Python's Flying Circus "Parrot sketch," "The plumage don't enter into it." Each individual person is a person, all other considerations aside.

And bigbore wrote:
Quote
The institution known as slavery would have died out in another 20 years or less as machinery was replacing the slave labor.


I'd guess 20 - 30 years. Farm machinery became more productive than manual labor about 1890 or so. With the additional social pressure that would have come if the South had maintained slavery, the machinery might have been developed a little more quickly, but not much.

Quote
Another dimension to add is that although slavery was a tough existance, was it that much better for immigrants just off the boat in some big eastern cities?Some authors state they were all in the same boat.


In some cases, Southern slaves were better treated; healthier, better fed, housed and clothed, and better educated, than were some Northern immigrant wage laborers. And in some cases, the hatred and bigotry faced by the Northern immigrant wage laborer equalled that faced by the Southern slave. I saw a newspaper article from a local paper from the late 19th Century, giving the casualty report from a construction accident on one of the local railroads. The dead were listed, with the local residents listed by name, age, and town of residence, then the out-of-town workers, also by name, age and town of residence, including one with the parenthetical note "Negro," then, "Four mules and six Italians."

It's unlikely that anyone back then would have considered this outrageous, yet I can't think of any sensible person today who wouldn't consider it so. Kinda like slavery. It makes you wonder: What are we doing today that'll seem equally outrageous to our descendents five or six generations from now?

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2004, 02:19:36 PM »
jdt48653,
First I think you need to go to a thread that matches what your yelling about, second,read before you flip out , you wont look soo childish.
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 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
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Offline mikej

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« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2004, 09:16:19 PM »
Hi guys,

 I'm relatively new here, but I had to join this one. My family came over here from Scotland, after various "troubles" occurring with the English in the late 1600's through the mid 1700's. They settled in Pennsylvania in the Neshemany(sp?) Valley, and in Western VA, currently West Virginia. They fought in the Revolution, and also in the War between the States, WWI, WWII, and Korea. I was too young for Vietnam, but served for 11 years during the Cold War. Some of my forbears married Native Americans, American Indians or whatever. They fought on both the Union side, and on the Confederate side. My Great Grandfather fought for the Union, but settled in TX in 1867 after the war, and after wandering around out West for a few years.
    I was born in TX, and am by birth an American, a Southerner, and a Texan. I was raised in GA, and went to college in TN. The bottom line in all this family history is that we are ALL Americans, and have various backgrounds, but a common heritage. That heritage is under attack on a daily basis by the left in this country, and we need to keep this in focus at all times. We can have civil discussions about who was right and wrong in the late War, and in truth there was both right and wrong on either side. The South was correct in it's States Right's beliefs, but wrong on the slavery issue. The North was right on preserving the Union, but wrong on Reconstruction, and for that you can blame John Wilkes Booth, because when he killed Lincoln, he ruined any chance of restraining the radicals in the North from vengeance. The scars left by Reconstruction are still evident today in the South, and that's why alot of us are touchy about Yankees. One of the outgrowths of Reconstruction was the "Jim Crow" era, which was a Yankee president making a deal with former Reb politicians to win an election. This resulted in the Civil Rights Movement which is still a sore point today, because the pendulum has gone too far the other way.
    The mission we have to accept is to fight this foreign idea of "socialism" and "communism" which the left in this country has been slowly but steadily implementing. We need to respect our common backgrounds, with all their differences, to preserve our way of life. The only hatred I feel is toward someone who wants to trash my heritage and the Constitution and make my country into some socialist utopia. Sorry for the rant, but I had to get it off my chest.

Offline jkirk13

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« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2004, 09:39:55 AM »
Born in PA, Live in PA, yet I get chills when I here the rebel yell. Jackson is my hero, he was the best general of the war. Lee knew how to lead troops. Longstreet was exactly what Lee called him, a warhorse, wish he were the Eagles' middle LB. JEB Stuart had the flair for cavalry. If all of the leaders could have learned dodge bullets, the rebels may have been the best led army of history. They were not the underdog at the beginning of the war, not until the blockade choked the life out of them. If the rebels had a navy, the war would have gone the other way.

Offline jdt48653

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« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2004, 06:01:13 PM »
READ THIS GUY, HE IS A RIOT---
thanks for the advice el`confederado,and while we are giving out advice
i think you are guarding the wrong border!you woulden`t have lasted very long as a reb in that time period.but today you can be a wantabe reb!

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2004, 11:48:00 AM »
jdt48653,
Hey thanks for your mis guided 2 cents, that just proves that opions are like a**holes, everyone has one. I dont know what border your talking about and I realy dont care, as for being a rebel, true I was not there , my family was, so good enough for me. Now why dont you go find some collard greens and think about something other than causing trouble.
Thanks
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2004, 12:57:58 PM »
EL-
Lighten up, everbody what doan agree with aint a  bad person.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline l.cutler

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« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2004, 01:16:54 PM »
There is nothing like a spirited intelligent debate, but that seems to be lacking here.

Offline TimWieneke

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Wait a second...
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2004, 04:30:29 PM »
"I would have to say that I hate when people state that teh Civil War was fought over slavery. The institution known as slavery would have died out in another 20 years or less as machinery was replacing the slave labor."

Hold on a second - manual labor would have died out 20 years later?  Do you honestly believed that would have stopped slavery or just moved slavery from the fields to the factories?

"In some cases, Southern slaves were better treated; healthier, better fed, housed and clothed, and better educated, than were some Northern immigrant wage laborers. And in some cases, the hatred and bigotry faced by the Northern immigrant wage laborer equalled that faced by the Southern slave."

But how do you move forward from this?  Continue the classification of a person as less-than-human (slave) or let them loose as a laborer and let them work their way to the top?  If anything, the images we saw this week of a black woman with a Phd standing up to an aggressive, politically biased, predominantly white male panel and defending the actions of my president as excellently as she did bespeaks part of the success of a culture who's classification was changed and they were free to work their way to whatever they wanted as individuals.

I think sometime we forget that while some changes can be sudden - the real fundamental changes take generations hard work and guts.

Tim

Offline trick45

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Re: Wait a second...
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2004, 04:56:29 PM »
Quote from: TimWieneke
"  

Hold on a second - manual labor would have died out 20 years later?  Do you honestly believed that would have stopped slavery or just moved slavery from the fields to the factories?



No, manual labor wouldn't have died out. It just wouldn't have been used in cash crop agriculture, since it would have been become relatively unprofitable compared to mechanization. And this would have spelled the end of large scale chattel slavery. And my guess is, that without some sort of aggressive social enlightenment, the results would have been very ugly indeed, rather like they were after the war.

Freedom was, and is, the only acceptable alternative. That was inevitable. It was also inevitably painful for many, over many generations.

Offline jdt48653

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« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2004, 05:27:31 PM »
el`c  i see your point on the slave issue,i guess most folks think the war was about slavery.i just wonder what answer we can give the original
people who were here,when we landed .as i guess we took their land.
even tho they didnt have a constutition.then we went west and took everybodys land that we came to.we fought a civil war on other peoples land!