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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #180 on: December 15, 2004, 11:51:07 PM »
I do not think Lincoln violated the constitution or abused the powers granted the president during time of war.
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #181 on: December 15, 2004, 11:55:07 PM »
Now if you want to say I disagree Mr President so I am gonna Take my marbles and find another game, and if you do not care for this then you and I can get it on, that is ok, but do not complain about the outcome.
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Offline nohorse

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« Reply #182 on: December 16, 2004, 05:03:09 AM »
Ironfoot – Regarding Lincoln and perpetuity [Ref: James Ostrowski, 1995]:

Lincoln challenged the claim of powers reserved by the states by asserting that no state, except Texas, had ever “been a State out of the Union.” In fact, Lincoln argued that the states “passed into the Union” even before 1776; united to declare their independence in 1776; declared a “perpetual” union in the Articles of Confederation two years later; and finally created the present Union by ratifying the Constitution in 1788. There are many problems with his argument.

Lincoln confused no fewer than four different concepts of union. Prior to 4 July 1776, the colonies were united by their increasing concern over the violation of their rights by the British government. Their representatives met in a Continental Congress which ultimately issued the Declaration of Independence and organized the Revolutionary War effort. Prior to 1776, no issue of secession from a union could have arisen because the colonies still considered themselves part of Great Britain. Neither were there any legal documents agreed to by the Continental Congress which directly or indirectly addressed the issue of secession. Thus, any union that existed prior to 1776 is of no importance at all to the issue of secession.

Next comes the union created by the Declaration of Independence. The most notable fact in this context is that the Declaration announces a lawful secession by the colonies from Great Britain based on the right of the people to alter or abolish their form of government. It is thus apparent that the Declaration of Independence establishes that the right of secession is among the inalienable rights of men. The Declaration is, therefore, literally the last place on earth one would hope to find legal justification for a war against secession. It was adopted by representatives of the thirteen colonies, and declared that those colonies had become “Free and Independent States.” However, the Declaration was not a constitution, establishing any particular type of union among the states, or specifying any duties binding on them other than a moral commitment to mutually defend their newly declared independence.

The next union cited by Lincoln is the government established by the Articles of Confederation, which were ratified on 1 March 1781. Perhaps the most significant fact about the Articles is that they specify, both in the preamble and in the body, that the union thus created is “perpetual.” Article XIII states:
The Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every state.

In contrast, however, Article II makes clear that “Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.” This sentence is divided into two clauses, the first speaking of states retaining their sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and the second reserving to the states those powers and rights not expressly delegated to the United States.

Resolving the apparent conflict between Article II and Article XIII as it respects the issue of secession is unnecessary. Suffice it to say that the Articles expressed a desire for perpetual union, while recognizing the independence of states, and omitting any clear mandate or enforcement mechanism that prevents state secession. They also established a decentralized federal system without a strong executive power that apparently failed to arouse any secessionist impulses in its short tenure.

The union established by the Articles of Confederation, in spite of its exhortation of perpetuity, was terminated by nothing other than a secession! The proposed Constitution provided that it would take effect upon ratification by nine states. On 21 June 1788, New Hampshire became the ninth state to ratify. On that date, a new union was formed, exclusive of Virginia, New York, North Carolina, and Rhode Island, which had not yet ratified. That new union seceded from the union formed by the Articles of Confederation in violation of Article XIII, which barred any alteration in the Articles save by unanimous consent.

Significantly, the exhortation of perpetuity from the Articles—which was repeated five times—was dropped by the new Constitution. In response to this embarrassing fact, Lincoln argued that the phrase “a more perfect union” in the preamble implies at least the perpetuity of the Articles. Evidently, the Framers either disagreed or chose to be silent on the matter. (Indeed, common sense suggests that perpetual—forced—unions are less perfect than consensual ones). Their omission is especially significant since the term “perpetuity” was part of the full name of the Articles: “Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.” Thus, the Framers of the constitution could not have missed the term.

More importantly, a comparison of the two texts reveals, contrary to popular thought, that much copying was done by the Framers of the Constitution. Entire clauses from the Articles were imported virtually word for word into the Constitution. Examples include the following clauses: privileges and immunities, extradition, full faith and credit, congressional immunity while in session, ban on state treaties, and ban on state imposts and duties. The Framers were clearly conversant with the text of the Articles, yet no mention of perpetuity appears in the Constitution.
Neither does the Constitution explicitly say anything about state secession. The word “secession” does not appear in the Constitution. The Constitution neither prohibits a state from leaving the union nor explicitly authorizes a state to do so. Nor does it explicitly authorize the federal government to forcibly retain a state that has seceded.
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #183 on: December 16, 2004, 05:58:05 AM »
That was a good argument for secession and one that was used by the Confederacy to secede. this has been a constitutional argument, which, by the way, has no merit in this day and age, and, was soundly defeated by force of arms, if nothing else, then. (doan scrutinize the sentence structure, which is not sound.)
Has there ever been a test of this logic in a recognized court?
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #184 on: December 16, 2004, 06:14:51 AM »
I agree Layton,where are the court cases.And if a moderator it is not your personal "bully Puppet'!
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #185 on: December 16, 2004, 07:30:16 AM »
Williamlayton,IntrepidWizard,
I have come to realize I could say nothing that you two would agree with me about. I can post Constitutional fact, I can explain the thoughts and still, you two like most other Unionist will still cling to what was said by Mr Lincoln as some sort of act by God , this is fine, everyone can think as they wish.I have watched the 3 of you attack , rant and post and yet have shown nothing in the way of Constitutional proff to back what you feel is truth and I wonder why, is it that deep in your hearts you know that Lincoln was wrong and if he would have beenin another country he would have been looked at in the same way we look at Hitler , Stalin or Saddam?

Oh and williamlayton, there was a test of that logic, however, Mr Lincoln had the menbers of the Supreme Court that didnt agree with his logic arrested, just look at what was done to Chief Justice Taney.
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #186 on: December 16, 2004, 07:33:55 AM »
Your mind is so twisted we can't converse with you,you have accused me of positions I have not taken.You have your own interpretation of the Constitution contrary to the writers and their letters and their known intent.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #187 on: December 16, 2004, 10:56:13 PM »
EL-
Now calm down paz. There is no reason to take this personal.
I think you have shown some good thought, and just as mine, it is not original. I think it is a spin on the facts. If most of what I read/have read over the years could be taken as correct constitutional law then the Democrats have a shot with the Supreme Court at the Bill of Rights.
It is a controversy that has had its 15 minutes of fame, record as the second longest running argument in history, great supporters and detractors, ect.
So having said that, how is everbody makin out in tha south of Louisiana. Cane should be in by now, they was trying to get it in when I was over that way in october contributing to the general welfare of the sheriffs department and parish.
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Offline ironfoot

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« Reply #188 on: December 17, 2004, 12:06:38 AM »
nohorse

Your post was well written.

You stated at the end of it:
"Neither does the Constitution explicitly say anything about state secession. The word “secession” does not appear in the Constitution. The Constitution neither prohibits a state from leaving the union nor explicitly authorizes a state to do so. Nor does it explicitly authorize the federal government to forcibly retain a state that has seceded."

Thats the problem I suppose. The Constitution does not expressly address the issue of secession, so both sides can read what they want into it and make lawyerly arguments about it. But if any state could secede because it did not like the results of a presidential election, how could a Constitutional democracy hope to survive? Can the blue states legally secede now because they did not want George W. Bush to be president? If a state could legally secede because it did not like the results of an election, then elections become meaningless. Do nations normally allow a part to secede, or is it implicit that secession and other forms of dissolution are not generally acceptable?

Lincoln addressed the legality of secession in his first inaugural address, in a tone similar to a lawyers argument. He addressed the issue again in the Gettysburg Address, in a more idealistic and practical way, when he said:

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure...."
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #189 on: December 17, 2004, 01:48:47 AM »
Ironfoot

Thanks. I also really appreciate your perspective.  We don’t always agree but you propose a most interesting argument.  I think we can reach ‘middle ground’ on your point “The Constitution does not expressly address the issue of secession, so both sides can read what they want into it and make lawyerly arguments about it.”  

You pose the question “But if any state could secede because it did not like the results of a presidential election, how could a Constitutional democracy hope to survive?”:  Again the presidential election of 1860 was just one of the catalysts required for secession but as you imply – The constitutional democracy of the time split into two separate factions – north and South.  Indeed this allowance provides for a change in government and regardless of the reasons it is apparent that the majority of the Southern states believed they had the right to form their own government.

You also ask “Can the blue states legally secede now because they did not want George W. Bush to be president? If a state could legally secede because it did not like the results of an election, then elections become meaningless.”  I agree there has to be more influence than simply a political election, keep in mind there were many factors that contributed to actual secession other than the 1860 presidential election.  As you have so aptly stated before slavery and the politics associated with slavery were a profound influence as were tariffs and the other issues we have discussed.

Then you ask “Do nations normally allow a part to secede, or is it implicit that secession and other forms of dissolution are not generally acceptable?”:  I do not know. For the United States Thomas Jefferson and others believed it was an inalienable right as we have discussed – I do not know how it is viewed by other nations.  I also believe once the South determined that secession was their only recourse it did not matter if the nation felt this was acceptable. It is obvious they felt that it acceptable or at least a Southern majority believed so.


You state: “Lincoln addressed the legality of secession in his first inaugural address, in a tone similar to a lawyers argument. He addressed the issue again in the Gettysburg Address, in a more idealistic and practical way, when he said:

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure...."

Good point. Lincoln was a sharp and well versed lawyer of the times. Regardless of what many may think of him if you investigate his logic and presentations the man had an excellent grasp of the issues and as any good lawyer he could make an excellent case to defend his personal opinions and perspectives.  I always thought the part of the Gettysburg address you quote presented a historical overview. I never really thought about this being an argument against secession. I’ll think on that one for a while – Thanks!  


Wiiliamlayton:
“That was a good argument for secession and one that was used by the Confederacy to secede. this has been a constitutional argument, which, by the way, has no merit in this day and age, and, was soundly defeated by force of arms, if nothing else, then. (doan scrutinize the sentence structure, which is not sound.)
Has there ever been a test of this logic in a recognized court?”

Yes, there have been some Supreme Court cases and interpretations.  I’ll find some references and get back to you.  I also agree this may have no real merit or influence on current events – The South may have been defeated by a force of arms but if secession is indeed an inalienable right there is no force of arms that can remove it. Just as you have an inalienable right to defend yourself, your family and property.  The government may deem that the method you choose is illegal, but the basic right still remains.  Thus the constitutionality arguments continue and I suppose from that perspective there is some merit to continuing these discussions today.  Although the discussions here will have no merit in the courts or no impact upon constitutional law they are quite interesting nonetheless. Thanks for your contributions to this and the other subjects that we have discussed together.


Intrepidwizard
“I agree Layton,where are the court cases.And if a moderator it is not your personal "bully Puppet'!”

I am a puppet to no man and I am assuming that the same is true for you. This comment is not worthy of the time it would take to write a formal response.
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Offline doc_kreipke

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« Reply #190 on: December 17, 2004, 02:51:56 AM »
William, to my knowledge, there were no court cases to test secession at the time. Lincoln's knuckleheaded attempt to arrest Justice Taney actually stemmed from Ex Parte Merryman, a habeas corpus squabble about the governor of Maryland, rather than a constitutional test for secession. It'll be interesting to see what Nohorse can dig up.

After the war, the Union dropped the ball in getting bona fide legal debate by refusing to prosecute Jeff Davis, which he asked them to do until he was blue in the face. I wouldn't have bet a nickel on Davis' acquittal, but at least posterity would have had a concise point-counter point record from legal minds of the period.

I think Wiz meant "bully pulpit."
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Offline nohorse

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« Reply #191 on: December 17, 2004, 03:08:53 AM »
Good point Doc and like ya say the few Supreme Court opinions that I am aware of came long after the war ended.  

I certainly hope that 'pulpit' was the intent.  Kind of interesting in how a misspelling can change the entire meaning of the sentence...
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #192 on: December 17, 2004, 04:21:50 AM »
" Bully Pulpit" was the intent and then Graybeard dispeared and I left for a Town Christmas party.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #193 on: December 17, 2004, 04:38:56 AM »
Intrepidwizard

Thanks for the clarification.

Doc: Thanks again.....
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Offline nohorse

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« Reply #194 on: December 17, 2004, 07:09:36 AM »
Willianlayton/doc:

“Has there ever been a test of this logic in a recognized court”?  

I’ve done a little more research and so far what I have discovered is that the legal interpretations that influenced session and at times our current legislation actually evolve from many of the legal discussions and interpretations regarding State’s Rights.  

However, in 1869 in the case Texas v White, 74 U.S. 700, the Supreme Court declared that secession was unconstitutional. The Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature--even if ratified by a majority of Texans--were "absolutely null." [Oyez Supreme Court Multimedia].  As stated before this came a few years after the war had ended and the perspective towards secession had obviously changed.  Then again there are many in Texas that believe Texas was illegally annexed by the United States in 1845 making this irrelevant.  This debate continues and was recently revived in a Texas court case in 1968.

As Doc mentions I haven’t found any interpretations during the 1850 -1860 era that defines the constitutionality of secession or perpetuity.  Perhaps someone more versed can contribute to this thread. By the way you state “That was a good argument for secession and one that was used by the Confederacy to secede”. [Just so you understand and so I am not tempted to plagiarize, the argument I related was actually based upon the facts presented in 1995 by James Ostrowski, Attorney at law in Buffalo New York. He has written several excellent books, is an excellent resource and definitely was not around to actually influence the Confederate viewpoint.]


 Doc also makes a most excellent point [Thanks again] by stating “After the war, the Union dropped the ball in getting bona fide legal debate by refusing to prosecute Jeff Davis, which he asked them to do until he was blue in the face. I wouldn't have bet a nickel on Davis' acquittal, but at least posterity would have had a concise point-counter point record from legal minds of the period.“  

Nothing could be more true! A legal prosecution of Jefferson Davis most definitely would have forced the courts to finally lay to rest the argument of session, its constitutionality, and actually define State’s rights in this perspective and the context of the era.

Ref:
The Fourth Circuit Court of Virginia was the jurisdiction Andrew Johnson wanted for the treason trial of the Confederate President. Military officials wanted to try him in their courts. The authorities debated over the jurisdiction for two years while Davis was imprisoned. Johnson knew a military trial would make Davis a martyr. Supreme Court Justice Salmon P. Chase refused to hear cases in the Virginia Circuit while the State was still under the military government and not until the writ of habeas corpus was restored. When Chase finally sat at the Davis trial in November 1868 he approved Davis' lawyer's argument that the 14th Amendment that had recently gone into effect applied to Davis. In December Johnson issued a general amnesty. At the next session of circuit court, Chase discharged Davis on the grounds he was included in the pardon and could not be tried ex post facto. [http://pw1.netcom.com/~rilydia/chase/spchase2.html]
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Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #195 on: December 17, 2004, 07:18:22 AM »
Williamlayton,
Well son, I am not in Louisiana anymore, had to come over to California, which is ok , spent many of years here.Anyhow, so I guess now I am in the Northwest Confederacy as these boys call it. :twisted:
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Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #196 on: December 17, 2004, 08:16:28 AM »
Well here is some stuff for y'all to read, I guess I am not soo far off after all, oh well, I guess these fellas dont know anything either. Enjoy.

The Right of Secession

by Gene H. Kizer, Jr.

        There is no evidence that secession was illegal or prohibited by the Constitution, and in fact there is almost overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that secession was a legal, constitutionally sanctioned act, the right of which was mandated by the Founding Fathers, the Revolution itself, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Historian Kenneth M. Stampp, in his book The Imperiled Union, maintains that it is impossible to say that secession was illegal because of the ambiguity of the original Constitution as to state sovereignty and the right of secession. He points out that "the case for state sovereignty and the constitutional right of secession had flourished for forty years before a comparable case for a perpetual Union had been devised," and even then its logic was "far from perfect because the Constitution and the debates over ratification were fraught with ambiguity."1 It appears that the original intention of an unquestioned right of secession was established by the Founders and took root, as Stampp pointed out, and "flourished for forty years," then later a "perpetual Union" counter-argument developed out of political necessity when Northern states began realizing their wealth and power was dependent on the Union and its exploitation of the South.
        There had to be a specific constitutional prohibition on secession for it to be illegal. Conversely, there did not have to be a specific constitutional affirmation of the right of secession for it to be legal. Why? Because the 10th Amendment to the United States Constitution states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

There was no constitution prohibition on secession, nor was there a constitutional sanctioning of any kind of federal coercion to force a state to obey a federal law because to do so was to perpetrate an act of war on the offending state by the other states, for whom the federal government was their agent.
        The arguments for the right of secession are powerful and convincing. There is the constitutional right, based on the Constitution as a legal compact - the Compact Theory - and there is the revolutionary right, premised on the idea that a free people have the right to change their government any time they see fit. The constitutional right is based largely on the aforementioned 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, while the revolutionary right is based on the Declaration of Independence and the philosophy of Thomas Jefferson and John Locke, that

whenever any form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, . . .

These words come directly from the Declaration of Independence. This passage was also used, verbatim, in South Carolina's Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union. A similar sentiment was expressed by Abraham Lincoln in 1847 on the floor of the United States House of Representatives:

Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world.2    

        Horace Greely's New York Daily Tribune published a long, detailed, emotional editorial on December 17, 1860, the day South Carolina's Secession Convention began, strongly supporting the right of secession on the revolutionary basis. The Tribune used the exact same passage used in South Carolina's Declaration of Immediate Causes from the Declaration of Independence, reiterating that the "just powers" of government come from the "consent of the governed" and "'whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and institute a new government,' &c., &c.", adding that

We do heartily accept this doctrine, believing it intrinsically sound, beneficent, and one that, universally accepted, is calculated to prevent the shedding of seas of human blood. And, if it justified the secession from the British Empire of Three Millions of colonists in 1776, we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861.3

The Tribune goes on to say it "could not stand up for coercion, for subjugation," because "We hold the right of self-government sacred," and if the Southern states want out, "we shall feel constrained by our devotion to Human Liberty to say, Let Them Go!", because self-government is one of the "Rights of Man."4    
        The State's Rights Hartford Convention of New England, aggrieved by the financial losses of New Englanders in shipping during the War of 1812, met in 1815 and seriously discussed seceding from the Union. The Convention selected representatives to go to Washington to present its grievances to the government. It even chose a military leader should their grievances be ignored. Also, arrangements were made for the calling of a second convention, if necessary, to make specific plans to secede. Commissioners were sent to Washington but upon arriving found that the War of 1812 had ended, therefore it was not necessary to air their grievances. The Journal of the Hartford Convention bristles with references to state sovereignty, and with States' Rights language such as the right of a state to decide for itself when a violation of the Constitution occurred. One quote from the Hartford Convention Journal, justifying secession, sums it up:

Whenever it shall appear that these causes are radical and permanent, a separation by equitable arrangement, will be preferable to an alliance by constraint, among nominal friends, but real enemies, inflamed by mutual hatred and jealousy, and inviting by intestine division, contempt and aggression from abroad.5

        Some excellent constitutional arguments are summarized in an article entitled "The Foundations and Meaning of Secession," by Mr. H. Newcomb Morse, in the Stetson Law Review, which is a publication of the Stetson University College of Law.6 Morse writes that the War Between the States did not prove that secession was illegal because

many incidents both preceding and following the War support the proposition that the Southern States did have the right to secede from the Union. Instances of nullification prior to the War Between the States, contingencies under which certain states acceded to the Union, and the fact that the Southern States were made to surrender the right to secession all affirm the existence of a right to secede . . .7

He adds that the Constitution's "failure to forbid secession" and amendments dealing with secession that were proposed in Congress as Southern states were seceding strengthened his argument that "the Southern States had an absolute right to secede from the Union prior to the War Between the States."8
        Briefly, Morse argues that because the Constitution did not forbid secession, then every state acceding to the Constitution had the implied right to secede from it. He says that if men of the caliber of Madison, Hamilton, Wilson and the others meant to forbid secession, they definitely would have said so, and the omission of a prohibition on secession in the Constitution is strong proof that the right of secession existed, and was assumed. He quotes James Madison from The Madison Papers, who wrote "a breach of any one article by any one party, leaves all other parties at liberty to consider the whole convention as dissolved."9 Vermont and Massachusetts, he points out, nullified with statutes, the Fugitive Slave Law of 1793, and those two breaches of the compact alone were enough for the South to consider the compact dissolved.
        There were many other violations of the Constitution discussed throughout the secession debate including the Northern Personal Liberty Laws which, in effect, nullified the Fugitive Slave Law of the Compromise of 1850, as well as Article IV, Section 3 of the Constitution, which dealt with fugitive slaves. At least ten Northern states had statutes that nullified those laws. Other breaches of the Constitution included the harboring of fugitives from justice in the North, specifically two of John Brown's sons who had been with him and participated in insurrection and murder along with him. They were wanted in Virginia for participation in Brown's attempted slave insurrection at Harpers Ferry, and were being harbored in Ohio and Iowa. Other violations included the North's attempted obliteration of Southern "domestic tranquility" by sending incendiary abolitionist material in the mail that encouraged slave revolt, and by Northerners who had financed John Brown. There was also the Republican publishing of 100,000 copies of Hinton Helper's The Impending Crisis, which called for slave revolt. The Republicans endorsed it in Congress and used it as a campaign tool.
        To prove the right of a state to determine for itself when the Constitution has been violated, Morse quotes Jefferson's Kentucky Resolutions which point out that if the government had the right to determine when the Constitution was violated, then the government would be the arbiter of its own power and not the Constitution. The Kentucky Resolutions also reaffirm state sovereignty and independence.10
        Morse demonstrates that congressional discussions and proposed legislation during the secession of Southern states indicated that Congress believed the right to exist. One piece of legislation was introduced to deal with the disposition of federal property within a seceding state, as well as a seceding state's assumption of its share of the national debt. Another scrambled to forbid secession unless approved by two-thirds of the members of both Houses of Congress, the president, as well as all the states. Morse then points out that thirty-six years earlier, Chief Justice John Marshall, in Gibbons v. Ogden wrote that "limitations of a power furnish a strong argument in favor of the existence of that power. . . .11 He concludes this part of his argument with:

What would have been the point of the foregoing proposed amendments to the Constitution of the United States prohibiting or limiting the right of secession if under the Constitution the unfettered right of secession did not already exist? Why would Congress have even considered proposed amendments to the Constitution forbidding or restricting the right of secession if any such right was already prohibited, limited or non-existent under the Constitution?12

        Morse goes on to discuss the conditional ratification of the Constitution by three of the original thirteen states, who carefully reserved the right of secession. They were Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island. Virginia used the exact wording of her conditional ratification of the U.S. Constitution, in her Ordinance of Secession. Morse points out that since the other states, which had unconditionally ratified the Constitution, consented to Virginia's conditional ratification, then they "ostensibly assented to the principle that Virginia permissibly retained the right to secede." He adds that with the additional acceptance of "New York's and Rhode Island's right to secede, the existing states of the Union must have tacitly accepted the doctrine of secession." Further, Morse states that according to the Constitution, all the new states that joined the Union after the first thirteen also had the right of secession since new states entered on an equal footing with the exact same rights as the existing states.13
        Southerners during the secession debate knew and understood this argument. Senator Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a brilliant legal mind who was later Attorney General, Secretary of War and Secretary of State of the Confederacy, in his farewell speech to the United States Senate on February 5, 1861, said:

The rights of Louisiana as a sovereign state are those of Virginia; no more, no less. Let those who deny her right to resume delegated powers, successfully refute the claim of Virginia to the same right, in spite of her expressed reservation made and notified to her sister states when she consented to enter the Union.14

        Morse skips forward to Reconstruction, and points out that "the Northern occupational armies were removed from Arkansas, North Carolina, Florida, South Carolina, Mississippi, and Virginia only after those former Confederate States had incorporated in their constitutions a clause surrendering the right to secede." Morse then argues brilliantly that

by insisting that the former Confederate States surrender their right to secede, the United States government had implicitly admitted that those states originally had the right. How could they surrender a right, unless they had it in the first place?15

        To summarize, Morse points out that before the war, under Virginia's conditional ratification of the Constitution, when the people decided that government power had been "perverted to their injury or oppression," they had the right to secede. When Northern states passed Personal Liberty Bills and other statutes nullifying the fugitive slave laws of the Constitution (Article IV, Section 3), a "perversion" occurred which gave the Southern states the right to secede. Reinforcing that "perversion" even further was the Federal government's not forcing those Northern states to abide by the Constitution, therefore

the Northern States conceivably "perverted" national law to the "injury or oppression" of the people of the Southern States. Thus, the reassumption of the powers of government by the people of the Southern States was a natural consequence of the Northern States' conduct and the federal government's failure to prohibit that conduct.16

        The only other issue, according to Morse, was whether the Southern states conducted their act of secession legally. Morse points out that the people are the sovereign, having supreme, absolute and perpetual power, therefore secession would have to be accomplished by the people of each state rather than even the legislatures. He says "convention delegates elected by the people of the state to decide one question constitute authority closer to the seat of the sovereign -- the people themselves," therefore a convention in each Southern state would be necessary as a "special agent of the people of the state." Did the Southern states conduct themselves legally and therefore perfect their acts of secession and independence? Morse says:

When the Southern States seceded from the Union in 1860 and 1861, not one state was remiss in discharging this legal obligation. Every seceding state properly utilized the convention process, rather than a legislative means, to secede. Therefore, not only did the Southern States possess the right to secede from the Union, they exercised that right in the correct manner.17

Morse's conclusion is that "conceivably, it was the Northern States that acted illegally in precipitating the War Between the States. The Southern States, in all likelihood, were exercising a perfectly legitimate right in seceding from the Union."18

        Other evidence of the right of secession abounds. The Southern view is well represented by Albert Taylor Bledsoe, who wrote in 1866 what is thought to be the best book ever written on the right of secession: Is Davis a Traitor; or Was Secession a Constitutional Right Previous to the War of 1861? Dr. Richard M. Weaver, who was, during his lifetime, a professor and author of several noted books on the South, called Is Davis a Traitor? "the masterpiece of the Southern apologias." Weaver described it as a "brilliant specimen of the polemic" out of the entire, "extensive body of Southern political writing."19
        Dr. Clyde N. Wilson, long time professor of history at the University of South Carolina, goes even further. In the Introduction to a 1995 reprint of Is Davis a Traitor?, Dr. Wilson lists the top seven books defending the South and the right of secession and says "Bledsoe did it first and best," his argument for the right of secession being "absolutely irrefutable to any honest mind."20 The other six works that best defend the South and right of secession according to Dr. Wilson are the two-volume work A Constitutional View of the Late War Between the States by Alexander H. Stephens, The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government by Jefferson Davis, A Defence of Virginia and Through Her of the South by Robert L. Dabney, The Creed of the Old South by Basil L. Gildersleeve, The Southern States of the American Union Considered in their Relations to the Constitution of the United States and the Resulting Union by Jabez L. M. Curry, and The Lost Cause by Edward A. Pollard.
        According to Dr. Wilson in the Introduction, pages i-viii, Bledsoe was born in Frankfort, Kentucky, in 1809. He graduated from West Point in 1830 and had been there part of the time with Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, Leonidas Polk and Albert Sydney Johnston. He loved mathematics and theology, but practiced law for nine years in Springfield, Illinois, as part of a bar that included Abraham Lincoln and Stephen A. Douglas. Dr. Wilson writes that "it was said that Bledsoe won six out of eleven cases tried against Lincoln," and that he had given Lincoln lessons, at one point, on using a broadsword because Lincoln had been challenged to a duel. After his legal career, Bledsoe taught astronomy and mathematics at the University of Mississippi, acquiring a "legendary" genius for mathematics. In 1854, he began teaching mathematics at the University of Virginia. During the war, Bledsoe served briefly as the colonel of a regiment of infantry from Virginia, then later in the Confederate War Department, and finally he was sent to Europe by President Davis on what is thought to have been a secret diplomatic mission to influence public opinion in Britain. After the war, until his death in 1877, Bledsoe published The Southern Review, in which he continued to argue the justice and truth of the Southern cause.
        Bledsoe began working on Is Davis a Traitor? while in England and published it just after the war "as a part of the campaign of Davis's defense." The Confederate President was in a Yankee prison, Fortress Monroe, where he spent a miserable two years waiting to be tried for treason. He was in irons with a light shining brightly in his cell twenty-four hours a day and with Union guards marching back and forth. The bright light was an additional measure of Yankee viciousness since it was known that Davis had never been able to sleep except in total darkness.
        Davis wanted to be tried for treason because he was confident he could prove the right of secession. However, he never got his chance, and that denial of Jefferson Davis' trial on the charge of treason by the Northern government is additional evidence of the right of secession, and is tied to Bledsoe's book. In talking about the effectiveness of Is Davis a Traitor?, Richard Weaver writes that

Bledsoe witnessed some practical result of his labor when Robert Oulds and Charles O'Conor, attorneys for Jefferson Davis, made use of the book in preparing their defense; but the Federal government, apparently feeling the weakness of its legal position, allowed the case to be dismissed.21

Here was the North's big chance to prove the South wrong once and for all, in a solemn and dignified court of law, in the eyes of the entire world and for all of posterity, but they refused to take it. Why? They certainly had not suddenly had a change of heart toward the South. It was Reconstruction, the body of the assassinated Lincoln was barely cold in the ground while the hateful Charles Sumner, no doubt still smarting from his caning by Preston Brooks, along with Thaddeas Stephens and other South hating radical Republicans were ascending in Congress. Northern troops were in control of every Southern government while large numbers of former Confederates were disfranchised. This was exactly the time the federal government would have wanted badly to convict the Southern president if it had had a case. The federal government was willing to kill hundreds of thousands of Southerners on the battle field, so there can be no doubt it would have relished humiliating Jefferson Davis in a courtroom. It is a virtual certainty that if the North's case had been strong they would have taken it to trial and vindicated their war against the hated South once and for all. That the Federal government did not go to court against the Confederate president after keeping him in jail for two years charged with treason, is more strong evidence that there was indeed a legal right of secession and the South had exercised it properly. There were no other treason trials against former Confederates because any one trial would likely prove the legal right of secession, and imminently practical Northerners were not about to lose in a court of law what they had won on the battlefield.
        Bledsoe's "irrefutable" argument in Is Davis a Traitor?" begins with the Constitution as a compact, or legal agreement among the members to the compact. The reason Bledsoe starts here is because any member that has acceded to (agreed to) the terms of a compact, can secede from that compact if the terms are broken by one of the other members. Bledsoe produces the writings and statements of the strongest opponents of the Constitution as compact - Daniel Webster and others - who have admitted that if the Constitution is a compact, then states can secede from it; but who deny that the Constitution is a compact.22 Webster was the great spokesman for the North with the credibility and reputation to go along with it. Bledsoe writes:

Thus, the great controversy is narrowed down to the single question -- Is the Constitution a compact between the States? If so, then the right of secession is conceded, even by its most powerful and determined opponents; by the great jurist, as well as by 'the great expounder' (Webster) of the North.23

        The evidence that the North had broken the specific terms and spirit of the compact, if it was a "compact," was substantial. Northern states had statutes on their books nullifying the Constitutional and Congressional law with regard to fugitive slaves. Many other specific breaches of the Constitution by the North existed in many areas besides slavery. Many in the North for over two decades believed, as Seward had clearly stated, that they were operating according to a "higher law" than the Constitution. The more radical had long called the Constitution a "covenant with death and agreement with hell."24 So the North's having broken the compact virtually guaranteed that secession was legal if, indeed, the Constitution was a compact that was "acceded to" by the original makers. Did the original states "accede" to a compact?
        Bledsoe attacks the arguments of Webster and the others one at a time taking on the strongest, most salient parts of their arguments. For example, Webster had said "words are things, and things of mighty influence."25 At one point, in the Senate, Webster had railed against the Constitution as compact. Webster had said that saying "the States acceded to the Constitution" was "unconstitutional language."26 Of course the reason he felt that way was because, if the states had acceded to the Constitution, then it was only logical that they could secede from it. Discrediting the single word, "accede," was very important to Webster, so Bledsoe researched in great detail the words of the founders and finds that in the Constitutional Convention of 1787, "Mr. James Wilson . . . preferred 'a partial union' of the States, 'with a door open for the accession of the rest.'" However, "Mr. Gerry, a delegate from Massachusetts, was opposed to 'a partial confederacy, leaving other States to accede or not to accede, as had been intimated.'" Father of the Constitution, James Madison, "used the expression 'to accede' in the Convention of 1787, in order to denote the act of adopting 'the new form of government by the States.'" Virginia Governor Randolph, also at the Convention of 1787, had said "That the accession of eight States reduced our deliberations to the single question of Union or no Union." Patrick Henry had said that if the Constitution "be amended, every State will accede to it." Mr. Grayson asks if Virginia will gain anything from her prominent position "by acceding to that paper." Benjamin Franklin, who Bledsoe says was next in importance at the Constitutional Convention to Washington, later said "Our new Constitution is now established with eleven States, and the accession of a twelfth is soon expected." George Washington, as he watched states join the Constitution, said "If these, with the States eastward and northward of us, should accede to the Federal government . . .". Chief Justice John Marshall used the word "accede" in reference to joining the Constitution, and even Mr. Justice Story, a staunch opponent of the belief in Constitution as compact, in agreement with Webster, said "The Constitution has been ratified by all the States; . . . Rhode Island did not accede to it, until more than a year after it had been in operation;".27
        Webster had attacked the word "accede" as something invented by proponents of the Constitution as compact. His intention was to discredit his opponents by discrediting the language they were using, but his plan backfired. Bledsoe points out that Webster's attack on the word "accede" by calling it a "new word," was ill founded and incorrect because "accede" had precisely been "the word of the fathers of the Constitution" with Washington "at their head." They had all used the word "accede" in reference to states joining the Constitution, and of course, the converse of the word "accede," is "secede."28
        Over and over Bledsoe demolishes each and every argument that maintains secession was not legal or a right. To those like Webster, who tried to say the Constitution was not a compact, Bledsoe offers the words of the Father of the Constitution, James Madison, in the Virginia Resolutions of 1798, "That this assembly doth explicitly and peremptorily declare, that it views the powers of the Federal Government as resulting from the compact, to which the States are parties." Bledsoe further mentions a letter from Madison to a Mr. Everett in 1830 in which Madison says that the Constitution is "'a compact among the States in their highest sovereign capacity.'" Bledsoe then uses Webster's own words against him, quoting Webster admitting that the Constitution was a compact in a debate three years earlier, on "Foote's resolutions."29 Bledsoe says:

that Mr. Webster himself, had, like everyone else, spoken of the Constitution as a compact, as a bargain which was obligatory on the parties to it. "it is the original bargain," says he, in that debate; "the compact -- let it stand; let the advantage of it be fully enjoyed. The Union itself is too full of benefits to be hazarded in propositions for changing its original basis. I go for the Constitution as it is, and for the Union as it is."30

        Perhaps the strongest argument against the right of secession, is based on the wording in the Constitution's Preamble: "We the people." Those who argue that the Constitution is not a compact, but is a national document, believe that "We the People" means all of the American people in one body, and not in their sovereign states. This, says Bledsoe on page 61, "is the great stronghold, if it has one, of the Northern theory of the Constitution. The argument from these words appears in every speech, book, pamphlet, and discussion by every advocate of the North. It was wielded by Mr. Webster in his great debate with Mr. Calhoun, in 1833, . . .". If the Constitution was written as a document for all of the American people in one body, then individual states had no right to withdraw from it. The committee on style of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 was headed by Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania. Notwithstanding the Northern nationalist rhetoric, this is what Gouverneur Morris said was the meaning of the Constitution and those words, "We the people," that he had authored:

The Constitution was a compact not between individuals, but between political societies, the people, not of America, but of the United States, each enjoying sovereign power and of course equal rights.31

        The "United States" means just that: states that are united. Morris himself believed in the right of secession and supported New England's move to secede during the War of 1812 which culminated in the Hartford Convention.32 Bledsoe quotes The Madison Papers and refers to some 900 pages of the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 on which are recorded the debate over method of ratification. He points out that nowhere in that vast record is there a discussion of the "people" as meaning the entire American people outside of their states. The big debate was over whether the legislatures of each state would ratify the Constitution, or the "people" of each state in special convention. It was clearly "legislature vs people in convention" of each state. It was decided by the Constitutional Convention that since a later legislature might rescind the ratification of an earlier legislature, it would be a more sound foundation to have the people of each state ratify the Constitution in special conventions called for the purpose of ratification.33 This is exactly how the South seceded, by secession conventions called for the single purpose of deciding the issue of secession. And, as Mr. H. Newcomb Morse said in the Stetson Law Review, "not one state was remiss in discharging this legal obligation."
        There was another problem in that nobody knew how many states, or which ones, would ratify the Constitution, therefore listing the specific states in the Preamble could not be done, as it had been done in the body of the Articles of Confederation. If all the states had been listed and one refused to ratify, then the document would be invalid. The number "nine" was decided on, as the number of states necessary to put the Constitution into effect, but in debating the issue, it was brought up that the Constitution could only apply to those states ratifying it, therefore no references could be made to "all" of the American people. Bledsoe writes that Rufus King suggested adding "between the said states, so as to confine the operation of the government to the States ratifying the same."34 The words were cleaned up and found their way into the Constitution in Article VII which starts out:

The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.

        Bledsoe further clarifies by writing that "when it was determined that the Constitution should be ratified by 'the Conventions of the States,' and not by the legislatures, this was exactly equivalent, in the uniform language of the Convention of 1787, to saying that it shall be ratified by 'the people of the States.' Hence, the most ardent friend of State rights, or State sovereignty, saw no reason why he should object to the words, 'We, the people of the United States,' because he knew they were only intended to express the mode of ratification by the States . . . in their sovereign capacity, as so many political societies or peoples, as distinguished from their legislatures."35
        Bledsoe goes on by pointing out that the Federal government had no legal right whatsoever to coerce a state into following its laws therefore it had no right to force a seceding state back into the Union. President Buchanan had stated in his lame duck period between Lincoln's election of November 6, 1860, and March 4, 1861, when Lincoln would be inaugurated, while state after state was seceding, that as president of the United States, he had no power to coerce a state, even though he denied that secession was legal. Bledsoe notes the contradiction in Buchahan's position and writes "if we say, that coercion is a constitutional wrong, or usurpation, is not this saying that the Constitution permits secession, or, in other words, that it is a Constitutional right?" He says "Coercion is unconstitutional . . . wrong . . .strikes down and demolishes the great fundamental principle of the Declaration of Independence, -- the sacred right of self-government itself." About secession, he says "Secession, on the other hand, asserts the right of self-government for every free, sovereign, and independent State in existence."36
        Bledsoe discussed the views of credible foreigner observers and writes that Alexis de Tocqueville, in Democracy in America, said:

The Union was formed by the voluntary agreement of the States; and in uniting together they have not forfeited their nationality, nor have they been reduced to the condition of one and the same people. If one of the States choose to withdraw from the compact, it would be difficult to disprove its right of doing so, and the Federal Government would have no means of maintaining its claims directly either by force or right.37

To Tocqueville, Bledsoe adds "Mackay, and Spence, and Brougham, and Cantu, and Heeren," then he goes on "as well as other philosophers, jurists and historians among the most enlightened portions of Europe, (who) so readily adopt the Southern view of the Constitution, and pronounce the American Union as a confederation of States."38
        Bledsoe continues with more persuasive argument, the words of Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton, who assert, beyond doubt, that the Constitution is a compact and the states, sovereign. He discusses William Rawl of Philadelphia and his book, A View of the Constitution of the United States, which stresses the right of secession and was used at West Point during most of the antebellum era, and the State's Rights Hartford Convention of New England states, which strongly supported the right of secession. These are but a few of the arguments found in Bledsoe's persuasive book.
        The Southern states did not rush headlong into secession. They had enormous grievances against the North that were much greater than even Northern violations of the Constitution. The unfairness of taxation, which had been the huge issue of the Revolution, was worse for the antebellum South because three-fourths of the taxes were paid by the South, while three-fourths of the tax money was spent in the North. It had held down the development of Southern industry for a half-century and Southerners were tired of it. Southerners felt the North was already at war with them in many ways. They saw Northern emissaries sent South to encourage slave uprisings, murder and rapine, then being applauded in the North for their grisly successes, especially John Brown. Southerners saw Hinton Helper's book, The Impending Crisis, which was full of errors on its economics, call for bloody slave revolt, yet be enthusiastically adopted by the Republicans in Congress as a campaign document. With the election of Republican Lincoln, Southerners believed those same Republicans would now put into effect the principles of Helper's book, and there was nothing they could do about it. For their own safety, Southern states began debating secession. They did so peacefully and with great intellectual vigor and in the end, the people of the South struck for independence and self-government, just as their fathers in the Revolution had.
        The North, however, had become wealthy manufacturing, shipping, and financing for the captive Southern market, which was rich itself because of King Cotton. The North could not let the South go without a complete economic collapse, which was well underway during the secession winter and spring of 1860-1861. All the noble rhetoric of the Horace Greelys in 1860 about the "just powers" of the government coming from the "consent of the governed" was cast aside due to the specter of economic collapse and financial ruin, thus the war came.






Or here is another nice one and the fella that wrote it is even black, I guess he is a bigot too.


The Real Lincoln

Do states have a right of secession? That question was settled through the costly War of 1861. In his recently published book, "The Real Lincoln," Thomas DiLorenzo marshals abundant unambiguous evidence that virtually every political leader of the time and earlier believed that states had a right of secession.

Let's look at a few quotations. Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union ... I have no hesitation in saying, ‘Let us separate.'"

At Virginia's ratification convention, the delegates said, "The powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression." In Federalist Paper 39, James Madison, the father of the Constitution, cleared up what "the people" meant, saying the proposed Constitution would be subject to ratification by the people, "not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong." In a word, states were sovereign; the federal government was a creation, an agent, a servant of the states.

On the eve of the War of 1861, even unionist politicians saw secession as a right of states. Maryland Rep. Jacob M. Kunkel said, "Any attempt to preserve the Union between the States of this Confederacy by force would be impractical, and destructive of republican liberty." The northern Democratic and Republican parties favored allowing the South to secede in peace.

Just about every major Northern newspaper editorialized in favor of the South's right to secede. New York Tribune (Feb. 5, 1860): "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861." Detroit Free Press (Feb. 19, 1861): "An attempt to subjugate the seceded States, even if successful could produce nothing but evil -- evil unmitigated in character and appalling in content." The New York Times (March 21, 1861): "There is growing sentiment throughout the North in favor of letting the Gulf States go." DiLorenzo cites other editorials expressing identical sentiments.

Americans celebrate Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, but H.L. Mencken correctly evaluated the speech, "It is poetry not logic; beauty, not sense." Lincoln said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives "to the cause of self-determination -- government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth." Mencken says: "It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves."

In Federalist Paper 45, Madison guaranteed: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite." The South seceded because of Washington's encroachment on that vision. Today, it's worse. Turn Madison's vision on its head, and you have today's America.

DiLorenzo does a yeoman's job in documenting Lincoln's ruthlessness and hypocrisy, and how historians have covered it up. The Framers had a deathly fear of federal government abuse. They saw state sovereignty as a protection. That's why they gave us the Ninth and 10th Amendments. They saw secession as the ultimate protection against Washington tyranny.

COPYRIGHT 2002 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.


Contact Walter E. Williams | Read his biography


©2002 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #197 on: December 17, 2004, 08:27:25 AM »
IntrepidWizard,
Hey pard, remember this statement?


"The battles can be discussed by the why is self evident and you are bigoted"

Now that I live in the same state as you and within a few hundred miles, care to call me a bigot  again or are you ready to take it back as you dont even know me?Just figured I would offer.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #198 on: December 17, 2004, 08:31:25 AM »
No,you want to incite and not have Gentlemens discourse,you also take out of context and are bent like Birdie.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #199 on: December 17, 2004, 04:31:28 PM »
IntrepidWizard,
Well I tell ya what pard, now that I am here for good, if you like you can call me names to my face  and then we could settle it like gentleman.Sitting behind the screen sure makes it easy to talk trash. So unless you want to settle like gentleman, please stop the name calling, be a man of honor pard.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #200 on: December 17, 2004, 04:49:39 PM »
The only trash is between you ears.I live outside Groveland,you can find me anytime in town.But that does not make you a man,thinking and putting thoughts together in sequence makes you a man.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #201 on: December 17, 2004, 06:42:45 PM »
IntrepidWizard,
Posted  like a true man of no honor, fine sir, if that is your thing, then fine :D , have a great life, who knows , maybe we will meet sometime.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #202 on: December 18, 2004, 01:33:17 AM »
MY, MY, MY. Humm, what was the point of this convesation?!
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #203 on: December 18, 2004, 06:06:57 AM »
williamlayton,
Oh pard, I guess he felt a bit like a frog and did some name callin, so I offered him a chance to jump and well he just gave me some more name callin and , oh well you get the jist. God, I wish men of honor still lived. I mean even with you, we disagree, but I dont recall either of us callin eachother names.Not to mention, I realy think if either one of us challenged the other to a genlemans duel, the other just might take up the offer :-D , well us souther boys are a weird sort :twisted: .
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #204 on: December 20, 2004, 12:15:41 AM »
Sir I will take up any challange by any man at any time, well, er, if'n it is a challange at a pie eating contest.
Ya'll calm a little, tha feelins will go away, an become only a memory.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #205 on: December 20, 2004, 02:34:43 AM »
Thanks for posting the article "The Right of Secession". I found it to be interesting reading.
GG-father: 6th Ala Inf
GG-uncles: 6th Ala Inf; 19th Tn; Wirt Adam's Cav.

Offline maggot

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« Reply #206 on: December 22, 2004, 06:12:06 AM »
Well, after 205 replies and 2741 views can we all agree that:

Rebs are more freedom minded like the founding fathers.

Yanks are for stronger government, and true democracy.

Offline ironfoot

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« Reply #207 on: December 23, 2004, 12:27:01 AM »
maggot
You:
Well, after 205 replies and 2741 views can we all agree that:

Rebs are more freedom minded like the founding fathers.

Yanks are for stronger government, and true democracy.

Me:
Interesting analysis.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #208 on: December 23, 2004, 02:27:31 AM »
That is a good thought Foot but I would disagree that you can put a north/south limitation on it. Which BTW if you look at the posts you will see to be a true statement.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline gwindrider1

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« Reply #209 on: January 04, 2005, 04:51:53 AM »
My family are all from northern Alabama and Georgia.  Very few of my ancestors lived through that conflict, and as Chris stated in his post, "I still get a lump in my throat when I think about the waste of lives on both sides."

That said, I wish I could have been there to put a bullet square between the eyes of Gen. Sherman for the atrocities he and his troops commited on my beloved Dixie.

Yes, I'm a southern boy, and proud of my ancestors stand to protect their land, families, and way of life!  No less than what I would do today to defend my country!