For Obama supporters ..Question #3...

[jimster]

Our beef goes much bigger than health care, of even comparing it to another country....we despise government intervention because it creates larger more controlling governments and as Americans that is against our basic constitution.  Americans are born with rights given them by their creator, not by government, this is much different than other countries.  We fight for a bigger cause than just health care.  When governments grow, freedoms become less. 
This morning I went to the store with a .45 pistol shoved in my pants as always.  Several weeks ago walked into a store and bought a revolver on the spot, took it home right then and there.  The bigger governments get the more of these simple freedoms go away.  We have lost many freedoms in some of our states due to large government and government control at both state and federal levels.  This is why we fight things like this.

We can argue all day about who's health care is best...that ain't really it....we simply don't want government involved in much of anything...period. 
We are a different breed here...maybe the last of a dieing breed,  but we are not all dead yet.  Our government takes over health care, they will take more freedoms...evenually...they will say I can't shove a 45 down my pants...cause it ain't healthy...and they own health.  sound far fetched?  Think again, they been doing this for years.  We need to make governments small, with limited powers, and limited cash. 

That's the real fight.   

[nomosendero]

He's done again except for additional replies. 

[Redhawk1]

I don't believe I ever used the word " good". I did say not perfect or could/should be improved. Yes, I am aware of delayed cancer treatment especially for the older folks that are no longer contributing to society with long term income and taxes.

Kind of sounds like what Tom Daschle said, old people need to learn to die gracefully. I guess all the old folks are not worth it. They just contributed to a system all their working life, in order to be taken care of in there older years.

Well I guess we should all just kill ourselves when we get old, that way we won't be a burden on society.... BS.

It is not old peoples fault that the Government did not know how to manage the Social Security System or the Medicare system, and spent the money.

Then they want us to let them handle universal health care... what a joke that would be.

I think if they (or elected officials) decide to do universal health care, they themselves should be in the same system as all the people. Do you think the Senators, Congressmen, President would want universal health care for themselves and there families? I say if they vote for it, they are in it.

[jimster]

The oligarchy will fall back on the self-fullfilling prophecy that 'everything government touches they screw up'

That's because everything they touched did screw up....so it's no wonder we are worried.  They have a bad average going. 


"aint that kinda dumb after what happened last time?"   (From Pale Rider....everytime this guy went to town he got his butt beat,  sounded like a good question for someone to ask)

[jimster]

Agreed...

so let's make them do things right....Before we hand them anything else big to play with.  I can already tell you what will happen to health care if they touch it, same as I told you that giving the auto companies a bunch of our tax dollars way back when would not keep them from going bankrupt.  Now we are stuck with us flipping the bill to keep them alive because it's political suicide for any party in charge to let them fail NOW...oh boy...all about votes I guess.  Health care right now is all about votes too...bet on it...plan on it...and plan on it being a mess if they touch it.  Another health czarr will be needed of course, to make all the rules...LOL!   How many of those we got now to get past Congress...as if Congress would help us anyway.   

I say we take power from them first...then demand they fix themselves...then we can give them some power to start with...like close the borders.
If they do that we give them something else to play with. 

Somehow your trying to convince me to go along with the socialst programs and give government more power...but it ain't workin....because I did read the declaration of independence.  I suppose you can twist it up any way you want to for sake of agenda...I prefer to just LIMIT their power period. 
And somehow I don't see our social state programs of police and fireman and librarys have anything to do with the feds taking over private markets and such.  You lost me there.   
And by the way...our police are getting fired here, the prisons are getting emptied out...so it seems our state governments are not handling that well either although there are other social programs I would look at instead of these.

If we are going to make government do it right...take a bunch of power from them first...then let them try only the things that are laid out in the constitution to start with...see how they do the basics.  Best to keep the feds away from "charity"....let's the States do that as they see fit.  You can move to whatever state fills your needs that way...a real socialistic heaven....or one that that does not have much of that and you keep more of your own money. 
The Feds don't know anything about cars...they know nothing about health care, or handling our money...and the ones who writes the rules are the "staff and interns"  same as what has been writing all this crazy legislation.   You best not hand them a thing until you fix this all first.  This is a bit more important than the study of pig oder....which by the way...is a social program I guess....
 

[McLernon]

I am a Canadian and I can tell you that Universal Health Care(UHC) works in this country.......is it perfect, no................is it all government run, NO. Private companies supply allot of the services and compete for the right to do so.  Their standards and rates are overseen by PROVINCIAL governments and the care is uniform across the country(remember I said it ain't perfect). The thing that most of you are missing is that the coverage is UNIVERSAL. EVERYONE is covered. That means that if you have a prior condition you CANNOT be denied service. If you lose you job you are still fully covered. If the service/procedure cannot be provided in Canada the government will likely cover the cost of having the than any private system that is NOT universal.

Private insurance companies in the U.S. are free to pick and choose who they cover and what they charge and will deny service on all prior conditions. Lose your job and you lose you coverage. Oh andf by the way the insurance companies and all the private busineses in your system suck up allot of money in the form of profits.


In Canada any politician who stands against UHC is not a politician for long. UHC is here to stay.

Mc

[billy_56081]

I'm thinking, if we do get soacialised medicine here. I am going toquit my job and hide my money. I know I can work for cash and do very well. Ya know why, because I am sick of paying for all the lazy shiftless bums in this country.

[45-70.gov]

I'm thinking, if we do get soacialised medicine here. I am going toquit my job and hide my money. I know I can work for cash and do very well. Ya know why, because I am sick of paying for all the lazy shiftless bums in this country.

me  too

[crustaceous]

How many shiftless bums are there in our country? Who are these shiftless bums? Welfare recipients?

[45-70.gov]

welfare recopients  have health care

many working people do not

[billy_56081]

You hit the nail on the Head Crustacious.

[billy_56081]

TM7 where do you live? Lets make a trip to a hospital or clinic in Norhtern MN together. TM7 I'll show you a whole bunch of Canadians that love the American healthcare system. Or wait is something only true if you read about it on the internet?

[crustaceous]

Less than 1% of income goes toward wefare in the form of Food stamps, family support assistance (AFDC), supplemental security income (SSI), child nutrition programs, refundable portions of earned income tax credits (EITC and HITC) and child tax credit, welfare contingency fund, child care entitlement to States, temporary assistance to needy families, foster care and adoption assistance.
Medicade takes about 10%. It's old people you should be pissed at. 

[billy_56081]

In Watonwan County Minnesota, the budget for human services EXCEEDS the combined budget for ALL other services in the county. Not leess than 1% more than 50%. I don't know where you get your "facts", but your "facts" are falicies.

[blackhawk45]

I'm done
There's no talking to you people



You guys make up hate and lies and actually believe it.

It's sickening. No wonder there aren't any rational people on hunting forums anymore. You drive them all away.






This forum is suppost to be free of dirty jokes for the women and kids.
Unforunatly they let people make up all sorts of foolishness instead.

Admin, I appologize for my scene but I have had it. Please delete my membership.
thank you

Quiters never win,and WINNERS never quit !!! BYE

[ironglow]

  Living in one of the "bluest of the blue" states, I can tell you that the welfare/Medicaid bill is staggering. I live in a primarily rural county but to the north of me is Erie county, where Buffalo is located. To illustrate how pitiful it is...100% of the property taxes in the whole county goes to Medicaid, the rest of the "social safety net" comes from other sources..sales tax, tax from other counties and from what I hear, our hunting/fishing licenses.
  Crusty;
  Yes, MediCAID is a big cost, but don't confuse it with MediCARE..they sound too much alike. MediCAID goes to those who don't or won't work. MediCARE is for older folks who carry their own insurance plan + MediCARE. Most of them are still paying fed income tax also.
  Ahile I see no problem with MediCAID for the truly hurting, such as children facing major health problems, I am not too enthralled with the normal sick, lame & lazy who play the system. Much money is spent on the human debris that is inhaling, stuffing, injecting or smoking their favorite "substance".
  I find it hard to accept that only 1% of budgets go to various "entitlements" with tricky names. One of those tricky names you cited is 180 degrees opposed to truth. EITC, "earned income tax credits"..what a bunch of BS..the money handed over is NOT "earned", it is given to the recipient free (spread the wealth around). Honesty would not hurt..but then, we are talking about politicians.
  I don't know what HITC is, but it is probably just another political lie....same as all the others.

[ironglow]

  BTW; Many Canadians come across the bridge to Buffalo for medical care..those who can afford it. Yes, Toronto has excellent Drs and hospitals, but some have died..waiting in line..


 ..And Curtism, I don't recall anyone being rude or driving him away. I think he was operating on liberal "emotions" and when he ws asked to prove his contentions by FACTS...he just ran out of ammo..

  Guess he just expected us to be swooning over "O", as he and his friends are likely doing..

[Redhawk1]

  BTW; Many Canadians come across the bridge to Buffalo for medical care..those who can afford it. Yes, Toronto has excellent Drs and hospitals, but some have died..waiting in line..


 ..And Curtism, I don't recall anyone being rude or driving him away. I think he was operating on liberal "emotions" and when he ws asked to prove his contentions by FACTS...he just ran out of ammo..

  Guess he just expected us to be swooning over "O", as he and his friends are likely doing..

Not all of use drink the Obama Kool-aid. I have a mind to think of my own, and am not in need of being spoon feed a bunch of lies. Zombies they are I tell you.

[gypsyman]

When I see and hear about Sean Penn,Rosie 'O,Pelosi,fat boy Moore, and Hiliary running up to Canada, or going to Cuba for hospitalazation, I'll buy into the universal health care deal. Last night, I stopped buy a grocery store to pick up stuff, and the check-out girl told me she went to the emergency room the night before, as she had an asthma attack, and they fixed her up. Don't know if she is part time and has insurance or not. Point is, ANYBODY, going into an emergency room will get health care. And with millions of illegal's not contributing to the system, but running up costs, how much more is the working class going to support. gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

Lets face facts , when the Govt. takes over health care it will go the same as SS, education , post office , telephone , banking , auto production , affrimative action , cc camps and the wpa .
NOW SIT BACK AND CONSIDER THOSE , is that how you want your health care ?

So you work hard all your life , pay all your taxes , get sick in your older age and find out you don't get help due to a shortage of care and your age dosen't justify it .
NICE !
Sure people who don't produce or earn will be better off !

[billy_56081]

TM is Winnepeg one of these remote regions?

Its good to hear who is a socialist here.

[teamnelson]

Since we're on HC ... are we thinking it'll be like Canada or like Europe? In the UK, Govt restricts life saving operations based on decision of medical review board. Each individual case is evaluated on factors such as age, contribution to society, etc. So if there are 100 operations of a particular type budgeted for in the FY, and there are 500 patients in need, 400 will not get that operation regardless of likelihood of mortality. Some have quantified that practice with abortion or euthanasia, i.e. your value to society determines how likely you will get the care you need. My concern is that in OUR government, the determining factors would coincide with more political indicators than are used in the UK.

There is also the double edged sword of malpractice insurance; in socialist or commonwealth model, there is no recourse for malpractice. Most Doctors I've met operating in the Euro model are happy to be free from that liability, however they are also frustrated at the limitations placed on them. Their own salaries/budgets are less comparably which also means they do not have the freedom to provide pro-bono care at their own discretion. Some will leave the system and establish their own practice, which I would hope would still be allowed in a future US. So if you were not deemed worthy of a surgery but had the means, you could still get that care, and Doctors could experience the free market model applied to their own practice - top performers are worth top pay.

I think the valid concern about socializing medicine is the drop in quality of care for the average person. Low income folks will definitely benefit, and the wealthy will still be able to pay for better service. But those of us in the middle band will most likely see a drop in quality on day one.

[billy_56081]

"Billy,,,yeah, Winnepeg has some remote places and long driving to medical centers. Yeah when it comes to HC I prefer a 'commonwealth' type of system,,,,for you that translates into socialism I reckon ( a very dirty word in your lexicon),,,for others it has a much different meaning. I believe this because the current HC system is unsustainable and the incentives are wrongly applied to a] not hold costs down as the admin/insurance component eats up 40% of costs and to promote ridiculus over servicing b] not find viable good treatments, c] corrupt the system, d] cut people off like grandma and grandpa Shootall, e] inflate costs continuously, and f] generally not be to the benefit health and quality of life of our American people. I do think the present system is pretty good for making some people very wealthy.
Basically, I take it your picture of an HC system is the "I Got Mine, Jack" school of doing business and the heck with everybody else, so don't mess with any thing, especially my very socialized V.A. coverage and disability."



TM7 the City of Winnepeg is remote???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg

Winnepeg Manitoba is Canada's 8th largest city!

Boy TM you really tell some whoppers!

[ironglow]

  A couple reminders;
  Education, fire, police, highways, libraries, sewer, water etc, are for the greater share, managed by local elected representatives who are accountable to the local people. Where the federal govt has shoved their nose under the tent as is the case in education, they usually mess thing up bigtime.
    By law (passed by a parasitic federal congress)  the UPS or FedEx CANNOT charge less that the USPS, and they may be apprehensive about shipping guns or parts because a self-serving, big-brother congress is looking over their collective shoulders.
   If one labors under the impression that govt cannot "lean" on individuals or companies, just recall the recent pronouncement by our prez, saying that if the stock & bond holders of GM & Chrysler kept insisiting upon their honest returns from the two bankruptcies..he would sic the capital hill press corps onto them !
 
   The president giving orders to the national press corps? Sure sounds like an unholy alliance to me!

  Sounds like we will be dragged into SOME kind of socialist medical program. The Repubs have said they have an alternate medical program. Perhaps if it is less freedom-restricting, it may fly. I really don't trust any of them though, just have to pick the least devilish devils..

[billy_56081]

Well, I'll tell you what Billy , jimster, gypsyman, shootall et al. I've been private sector my whole working life pretty much. I've put my money where my mouth is most of the time...currently I pay about 12$k/yr for HC insurance...which I consider a tax of sorts.  So, here is what I propose. Since, you believe the government inevitbley screws things up (and I agree by design, unless made to do things right), AND the fact that fear of 'socialism' is foremost in your psyche; I propose we do away with any shared, contrived, insured groupings, or special status citizens and we get back to pure capitalism.  No special HC for military, government, insured groups, special people, or whoever.....all gone. We will just have a pure capitalistic system...pay as you go...cash on the barrel head or finance it. Then we let the market come to bare as per supply-demand diktats. If you can't afford some HC than too bad.  Then we will all be set free....

..TM7

WOW! I see we have us a new TM7 here. Aint socialist health care part of the NWO?

By the way TM, have ya ever been to old "remote" Winnepeg?

[45-70.gov]

Well, I'll tell you what Billy , jimster, gypsyman, shootall et al. I've been private sector my whole working life pretty much. I've put my money where my mouth is most of the time...currently I pay about 12$k/yr for HC insurance...which I consider a tax of sorts.  So, here is what I propose. Since, you believe the government inevitbley screws things up (and I agree by design, unless made to do things right), AND the fact that fear of 'socialism' is foremost in your psyche; I propose we do away with any shared, contrived, insured groupings, or special status citizens and we get back to pure capitalism.  No special HC for military, government, insured groups, special people, or whoever.....all gone. We will just have a pure capitalistic system...pay as you go...cash on the barrel head or finance it. Then we let the market come to bare as per supply-demand diktats. If you can't afford some HC than too bad.  Then we will all be set free....

..TM7

we  must also  do away  with  the  AMA
they are  a most power ful  UNION
and  the government  laws  that  inhibit competition
i am  sure  if  you get cut  i can sew  you  up  just  fine.... I  HAVE  my dad had  me  sew people at age 14
i can  do  it  cheaper  too
but  i would be  JAILED  for giving  you  a good  deal
government   vs   freeinterprize

[billy_56081]

We go from BHO and America no longer being a Christian nation.

I guess this is the standard of the socialist left. Try to change the subject. And even better make up "facts" to support your point of view.

Any socialist leftist that wants socialised medicine is just another liberal in search of something for nothing.

[45-70.gov]

well  HBO  I MEAN  BHO

went to the church  of  jeramia  write  to advance  his carreer  i chicago  politics

then cast him  aside  when  we saw  jaramia write....he  didnt fit  into   AMERICAN politics

now he is a christian  because it  gets  him  votes

soon  on the world sceen  he wants  to  dominate

he  will cast  the christain faith aside  and  return  to his  muslim  roots

[gypsyman]

Ironglow's question was, was Obama's slip of the tongue about his Muslim faith, like a Freudian slip. I say yes. The more he does, the more I think he's pushing us into Armageddon. If he's not the anti Christ, he's doing a real good job of imitating him.  gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

TM-7 I just realized you live in a different country . It has to be that cause the one i live in isn't like the one you decribe .