Caliber versus bullet construction

[R.W.Dale]

Coyote Hunter, I am glad you took the time to answer his post. I was so baffled and amazed at his post, I was speechless.  

 You seem to have this problem anytime anyone disagrees with you.

I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me, but when you post such things as.

My pet peeve is the goofy "We owe it to the game animal to use a caliber that will provide humane kills" arguement.  

 

What an oxymoron there is absoutely NOTHING humane about sneaking up on an unsuspectin critter shooting it chasing it down gutting cooking and eating it. And yes I'm a hunter.  

It does not look like something a fellow hunter would say.  I was not the only one that replied to your post. Coyote Hunter pointed out the same thing. I guess he has a problem anytime anyone disagrees with him, but you failed to post the same reply to him.

I just call them as I see them.

Now tell me what is so wrong with that statement? Shure it's not being put in nice little sugarcoated terms but it's still how all hunt's work out.

 I replied to Coyote in a more gentelman like manner because he will take the time to respond in such a manner where as ............

[Coyote Hunter]

Sorry guys but I just don't buy it. To actually say that sombody is not on the same moral level because they reach into their gun cabnet and pull out a 30-30 instead of a 300wm I find it asinine to say the least.

Nobody said hunting with a .30-30 wasn’t moral.  What I said was “The humanity comes from respecting the game animal and killing it as quickly and cleanly as possible. For me that means choosing a suitable cartridge and placing it with the utmost care.”  The first elk I ever saw up close was hanging on a wall – taken cleanly with a single shot from a .30-30.  

I’d rather see someone hunt elk with a .30-30 and Winchester factory 170g bullets at 2181fps, as I may well do in a couple weeks, than a .300 RUM and a 110g cup and core bullet at 3900fps.  The former, IMHO, is “suitable” while the latter is not.  In Colorado a .243 is the legal minimum for elk, but I consider the .243 marginal at best – over the years I have seen more elk wounded with a .243 than all other cartridges combined.  When it comes to elk hunting a .243 is, IMHO, at best a cartridge for an expert marksman.  I would contend a .30-30 with a 170g bullet is a better choice for most hunters and situations.

 
My hunting buddy hunts elk with his .30-30 as well as his 7mm Mag.  For over 20 years I’ve used a .44 Mag in addition to my 7mm Mag and have also used a .375 Winchester and .45-70.  This year I have two new toys, a .30-30 and a .300 Win Mag.  The .300 will go elk hunting in two weeks and the .30-30 may go as well.  The .257 Roberts is better than a .243 for elk, but still not as good as a .270.  If I take my .257 Robert elk hunting it will be loaded with heavy for caliber, premium bullets – most likely a 120g Swift A-Frame.

In and of itself, the selection of a .30-30 is not a problem and the selection of a .300 Win Mag is not necessarily better.  I think you ignored where I said “and placing it with the utmost care”.

The whole morality arguement is based on the assumption that the animal instantly dies. Now I don't know about you but I've never seen a chest shot deer die on the spot using a 30-30. So by that logic a hunter using a 30-30 isn't doing the game animal justice by not using something that will cause instant death. Again I don' buy it.

No, it is not made on the assumption that the animal instantly dies, as few do - regardless of what cartridge they are shot with.  Again, what I said was “The humanity comes from respecting the game animal and killing it as quickly and cleanly as possible. For me that means choosing a suitable cartridge and placing it with the utmost care.”  Nothing there about instant death, but I don’t want my game to suffer a lingering death, either.

“The flip side of your argument is that we don’t need to consider the suffering a game animal might endure on its way to our table. Frankly, I find that argument repulsive.”

 I said No such thing. I alawys feel a little sad for the game animal after a kill, however I don't believe that because X caliber was uesd the critter in question is any happier for it in the end.

More often than not it is more a question of placement than cartridge, but when poor placement comes into play the cartridge and bullet selection can make a big difference.   The biggest bull elk I have ever seen in the wild was another unfortunate victim of a .243 – grievously wounded but far from dead and easily outdistancing his pursuer.  The choice of a different cartridge might well have changed the outcome.
 

 There was "better" back then 45-70,50-90 38-55 ect

It is certainly true that the .44-40 and .45-70 were introduced at about the same time, 1873.  The .38-55 came along 12 years later.  The .50-90 Sharps was introduced in 1872 and made a fine buffalo cartridge but the rifles in which it was chambered were heavy and cumbersome.

As a practical matter, many hunters were limited to what they had immediately available and quite often that was the .44-40.  One reason for the popularity of the .44-40 was the rifles in which it was chambered and the fact that Colt handguns were also chambered in .44-40, making it possible for a person to carry one type of ammunition – often an important consideration back then.  The .44-40’s popularity dwindled quickly once the .30-30 was introduced.

 Even today people use obsolete and "underpowered" things such as .357mag ,30carbine, 7.62x39 and 30-30

 Again I think the reasoning is flawed. Just on the fact that if an animal has to be tracked it has suffered.

As I pointed out, I have used a .44 Mag, .375 Winchester and .45-70 and plan to use the .30-30 I picked up this year.  None of them are necessarily “underpowered” provided that the hunter understands and accepts their limitations.  

While I have had to track rabbits and coyotes, I have – thankfully – never had to track larger game that I shot.  I attribute this “good luck” in no small measure to my choice of cartridge and bullet coupled with the practice necessary to make good placement a reality and a willingness to pass on questionable shot opportunities.  Since things don’t always go according to plan, I would contend that – as a general rule – “too much” gun is better than “too little”.

[Coyote Hunter]

... Since the last time I checked deer don't fall over instantly dead from an arrow wound. Don't they usually run off and bleed to death?

Yes, and that is one reason I don't bow hunt.  

But that's a personal decision and several of my friends do chose to bowhunt.  I don't think less of them for it.

By the way, they, too, strive for clean kills.  Sharp arrows, good placement.

[Redhawk1]

Coyote Hunter, I am glad you took the time to answer his post. I was so baffled and amazed at his post, I was speechless.  

 You seem to have this problem anytime anyone disagrees with you.

I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me, but when you post such things as.

My pet peeve is the goofy "We owe it to the game animal to use a caliber that will provide humane kills" arguement.  

 

What an oxymoron there is absoutely NOTHING humane about sneaking up on an unsuspectin critter shooting it chasing it down gutting cooking and eating it. And yes I'm a hunter.  

It does not look like something a fellow hunter would say.  I was not the only one that replied to your post. Coyote Hunter pointed out the same thing. I guess he has a problem anytime anyone disagrees with him, but you failed to post the same reply to him.

I just call them as I see them.

Now tell me what is so wrong with that statement? Shure it's not being put in nice little sugarcoated terms but it's still how all hunt's work out.

 I replied to Coyote in a more gentelman like manner because he will take the time to respond in such a manner where as ............

I just think "WE" as hunters need to be careful how we portray hunting in general.  We are our own worst enemies. We try to pit bow hunting ethics to gun hunting ethics. We can't be for one thing and not the other. I bow hunt and gun hunt. I support all forms of hunting, and in return expect other hunter to do the same. making statements about trophy hunters or meat hunter in any negative way is a mark agents hunting in general. There is not in between, your are either for hunting or agents it, no matter the method. It is more a better choice of wording posts.  JMHO.

[tbone]

We need to make a clarification on the bow hunting issue.  A bullet or an arrow through the lungs take about the same time(5-15 seconds) to dispatch the animal.  They don't die from bleeding out either, they suffocate due to lack of oxygen in both cases.  In fact, I have dropped several deer with a bow that never made it out of my sight.  Yes, placement is key and an exit wound really helps you to determine what they did in their last 5-15 seconds.  Nice segue back to bullet construction, hey?

[Redhawk1]

We need to make a clarification on the bow hunting issue.  A bullet or an arrow through the lungs take about the same time(5-15 seconds) to dispatch the animal.  They don't die from bleeding out either, they suffocate due to lack of oxygen in both cases.  In fact, I have dropped several deer with a bow that never made it out of my sight.  Yes, placement is key and an exit wound really helps you to determine what they did in their last 5-15 seconds.  Nice segue back to bullet construction, hey?

tbone, you make a very good point.  :toast:  That is what I was leading to. That is why I think it is important for hunter to choose carefully how the talk about other hunters, and how they are so free to criticize other methods of hunting. Nothing a anti-hunting nut needs more than hunters pointing out faults or false accusation on other hunter or other methods of hunting. We are one group of hunters, no matter the method.

[RaySendero]

Here's another good one, scroll down to the bullet performance. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html If you want to read more than this go to the bottom and click CONTENTS and it'll take you to several more pages.  :shock:

Thanks Bigfoot - That was a good read!  I had previously seen the dissertation on Seahook.com but this was better as it encompassed calibers both above and below .30.

Seems to prove the trade off between deep penetration and big wound channels.  Also thought the propensity for the X bullet to loose their petals above 2,700 impact velocity was interesting too.

[Redhawk1]

Seems to prove the trade off between deep penetration and big wound channels.  Also thought the propensity for the X bullet to loose their petals above 2,700 impact velocity was interesting too.

I have not had this happen in any of the Barnes bullets I recovered. Even at short range where the bullets were over 2700 fps.  

[Coyote Hunter]

I have not had this happen in any of the Barnes bullets I recovered. Even at short range where the bullets were over 2700 fps.  

What about the ones you didn't recover?

[Redhawk1]

I have not had this happen in any of the Barnes bullets I recovered. Even at short range where the bullets were over 2700 fps.  

What about the ones you didn't recover?

I don't know what they did. But if you look a Barnes web site you will see that the peddles might shad in a worse case scenario.

Maybe I can give you the area I hunted, and you can find them.  :-D

From Barnes web site.

Will X-Bullets always retain 100% of their weight?
Our bullet is solid copper, so it retains its weight better than any conventional bullet available today. In a worst case scenario, even if all four petals detached because of a close-range, high-velocity shot striking very heavy bone, the bullet will retain 85% of it's original weight. Under the same situation, a lead core bullet would probably disintegrate.

I feel like this is ground hog day. I went through this before. :-D

[jro45]

tbone,  I agree, the talk isn't about the bullet except by a few but I don't like barnes bullets nomatter what. I think that it should be talked about how good the bullet is for that animal. There are alot of different bullets out. There are bullets for small and medium game then there are bullets for big game than there are bullets for dangerous game.