Caliber versus bullet construction

[tbone]

I am trying to figure out why there are so many topics on this board regarding caliber comparison.  The comments are "Which one is better","That isn't enough gun", "That is too much gun", "That will wreck the meat", etc.  Just about any modern caliber from .24/.25 on up will do the job on a lot of game.  It seems not enough consideration is given to matching bullet construction to the game and the conditions.  I lightly constructed bullet will "fail" (fragment, poor penetration) when driven at high velocity into close range game.  A bonded bullet may not open up at long range on a lightly skinned animal.  Most any caliber will kill the intended game efficiently if we simply match the bullet to the situation.  Want to go a little undergunned?  Probably should consider a Nosler Partition bullet.  Have a "magnum" that you shoot really well and want to use for smaller game? Don't aim for the shoulder.  Take them through the ribs to reduce wasted meat.  Bullets only do there job when they penetrate sufficiently yet expand before they exit.  Not trying to stop good discussions about caliber choice, just thinking there is not enough emphasis on matching bullet choice to conditions.

[flintlock]

I agree...several times on different forums I have stated that you will see more difference on wound channel and damage done by changing bullet type than changing caliber...I think what we are seeing is a lack of experience by most hunters, wanting a quick answer...Its kinda like asking what is the best lure for catching largemouths...It just depends on the situations...Good Luck

[beemanbeme]

Yup!

[Lawdog]

The problem is trying to pick one bullet that will do everything.  Long range, close range, large game, smaller game, etc.  That is the great part about hunting.  You can never tell what the range is going to be.  How big the animal is going to be.  All one can try to do is pick one bullet that will work for the cartridge they prefer to hunt with over a variety of situations.  Lawdog
 

[bajabill]

I try not to read or participate in those threads, but they are just too attracting :oops: , they never end.  we should have a special section for the various cartridge comparo arguments, I mean discussions.

[WW1]

I agree with most of what was said...it all boils down to what the a person likes, but it is nice to know what bullets seem to work the best in any cal for the most people...unless you are a magazine writter, a maker of films for TV, or just have alot of money, most of us get to shoot one deer or elk a year if we are lucky enough to find one and then dont miss it...I dont have enough years left in my life or the money I need to test every type of bullet that inrtests me...but you know I keep seeing a post now and then that says we have already covered that topic in the past...to my way of thinking, that is fine but maybe they guy wasnt around or has forgotten what he read 3 months ago?...I guess my point is if people are only allowed to bring a topic up once or twice, then after about one to two months there wont be anything new to talk about and the forums would cease to exsist.....where would the 270 Win that alot of you so dearly love be if "Jack" hadnt written about it over and over?...it might not even be around today...boy am I rembling or what?...I do agree with one thing there should be a section for loads and bullets only...just my thoughts...WW1

[PEPAW]

I agree 100%.    And what most of us need is one bullet for all ranges, because most big game can be close to very far (I can think of two possible exceptions (prairie goats and caribou).
That is why I am still using corelokts.   So far, they haven't "failed" in a lot of deer and hogs.

What are the other brands' (Winchester, Federal, etc, "do it all" bullets?


pepaw

[tbone]

The predictable thing about the caliber comparisons is the answer is always "Either one will do the job".  It's almost like arguing "Blonde or brunette?".  Oops, hopefully no one takes offense to that.

[Lawdog]

It's almost like arguing "Blonde or brunette?".

Bottle job or natural?   :-D   Lawdog
 

[tbone]

"Either one will do the job".

You can usually tell by checking whether the drapes match the carpet.  And in some cases you can't tell then either because the carpet has been removed. :wink:  I promise I'll quit now, but isn't this way more entertaining than "270 or 30-06"?  

[Redhawk1]

That is why I like Barnes Bullets. Short or long range, they work.  

[jro45]

I don't have any problem with Rem or  Hornady bullets for close or long shots.

[High Brass]

I think that there are more bad shots than bad bullets or cartridges.

[beemanbeme]

High Brass, yup!.  
If folks would spend more of the time they use looking for a magic bullet practicing, you would have many less "I made a perfect shot but the XXX ran away, not to be found" stories.
I am not on Remington's payroll and I do use many different bullets but if Core Lokts will shoot well in your rifle and you are shooting a standard cartridge, you will be hard pressed to fine a better bullet.  
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!  :grin:

[R.W.Dale]

My pet peeve is the goofy "We owe it to the game animal to use a caliber that will provide humane kills" arguement.

 What an oxymoron there is absoutely NOTHING humane about sneaking up on an unsuspectin critter shooting it chasing it down gutting cooking and eating it. And yes I'm a hunter.

 I can't help but wonder how this arguement would be looked apoun by our foerfathers 125 yrs ago when they were killing for meat with things like 44-40.

The bottom line is that ANYTHING that shoots in the hands of a hunter will kill medium sized game. This does not hold true for a "rackhunter"

 A meathunter armed with a 22lr rifle is gonna be more effictive than a Trophyhunter taking a 500yd potshot with a 300win mag because they can't pass up the opurtuinaty to shoot at an animal.

[Bigfoot]

I found this last week. Click the box in the corner to enlarge. Check out the A-Frame. http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

[PEPAW]

I base most of my bullet results on feral hogs.   I am a meat hunter.   The early BT's resulted in three lost hogs at close range and a deer before I decided enough was enough.    .243, .260 and 7 mm.
Admittedly, the .243 is too light, but not nearly as light as the .22 mag we use in the trap.

pepaw

[tbone]

http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

Now this is what I am talking about.  The "cheap" bullets typically perform better at long ranges ans the premium ones in close.  I once shot a 220lb Northern WI whitetail buck at 45 yds with my 30-06 and 150 core-lokt bullet.  I got no exit but the buck just tipped away from me like the wind blew him over.  I always wondered how many pieces that bullet turned into.   In hindsight a premium bullet may have exited but the delivery of all 2700 lb/ft into his body cavity was pretty devastating as well.

How about this idea if you're not sure at what distance the deer will show up?  Why not put a slow expanding bullet(fail safe, accubond) in the chamber and load the magazine with fast expanders(core-lokt, power point)?  Here is the theory.   Diminshes chances of "failure" on a close shot and if they show up at long range, just eject the premium shell and pull a faster expanding bullet out of the magazine.  When I pheasant hunt I load #6 shot in the chamber, #5 first in the magazine, and mag #4 for clean up.  Works pretty well for me in balancing knock down power with reduced bird damage.

Based on that test all the hype about the Barnes TSX seems very justified.  That bullet performs at all ranges.  I am very curious how the Accubond would perform in a similar test.

[lilabner]

An outfitter I hunted with who has shot many game animals and witnessed hundreds more being shot gave me this advice: Use the Nosler Partition or the Remington Corelokt. Both function well at all hunting ranges. My experience tends to support him. I shoot the Nosler because it is a bit more accurate in my rifles but results no doubt vary.

[Bigfoot]

Here's another good one, scroll down to the bullet performance. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html If you want to read more than this go to the bottom and click CONTENTS and it'll take you to several more pages.  :shock:

[Coyote Hunter]

My pet peeve is the goofy "We owe it to the game animal to use a caliber that will provide humane kills" arguement.

It may be your pet peeve, but it is certainly something I hold to be true.  While I believe I could easily kill elk with my .22-250 I wouldn’t try even if it was legal.  I have a .257 Roberts pushing 115g TSX’s to 3000fps and 120g Grand Slams and Partitions to 2900fps and am hesitant to use it on elk.  I want my game to die as quickly as possible with as little suffering as possible.

 What an oxymoron there is absoutely NOTHING humane about sneaking up on an unsuspectin critter shooting it chasing it down gutting cooking and eating it. And yes I'm a hunter.

The humanity comes from respecting the game animal and killing it as quickly and cleanly as possible.  For me that means choosing a suitable cartridge and placing it with the utmost care.  Yes, the animal still dies.

 I can't help but wonder how this arguement would be looked apoun by our foerfathers 125 yrs ago when they were killing for meat with things like 44-40.

I suspect many of them would have agreed and used something “better” if it was available.

The bottom line is that ANYTHING that shoots in the hands of a hunter will kill medium sized game. This does not hold true for a "rackhunter"

 A meathunter armed with a 22lr rifle is gonna be more effictive than a Trophyhunter taking a 500yd potshot with a 300win mag because they can't pass up the opurtuinaty to shoot at an animal.

Maybe, maybe not – there are way too many variables not considered.  I have seen quite a few shooters that would have no problem taking a 500 yard shot and making it count.  And yes, some of these are long past the need to hunt meat and are what you would consider “rackhunter”s.

Over the years I have passed on far more shots at elk than I have taken, but every shot taken has resulted in meat on the table.  I would much prefer the .300 Win Mag over a .22LR.  Two years ago I used a .45-70 with great success but did so with the full knowledge of the limitations imposed by my choice.  Placement counts for an awful lot, but it is not everything.

The flip side of your argument is that we don’t need to consider the suffering a game animal might endure on its way to our table.  Frankly, I find that argument repulsive.

[Coyote Hunter]

… I once shot a 220lb Northern WI whitetail buck at 45 yds with my 30-06 and 150 core-lokt bullet.  …  I always wondered how many pieces that bullet turned into.   In hindsight a premium bullet may have exited but the delivery of all 2700 lb/ft into his body cavity was pretty devastating as well.
…

The last elk I shot was hit first in the leg.  The bullet passed through obliterating the leg bone, passed through two more layers of hide, obliterated the near rib and shattered the far rib before coming to rest.  I have to wonder how a bullet the blows up on impact would have fared and am thankful I wasn’t using one.

To paraphrase Lawdog, the challenge is to find a bullet the works RELIABLY and AT ALL RANGES.  Unless, of course, you know going into the field just how far off the game will be when you take your shot.  I’ve been hunting elk for over 20 years and still haven’t figured out how to do that!

[Redhawk1]

My pet peeve is the goofy "We owe it to the game animal to use a caliber that will provide humane kills" arguement.

It may be your pet peeve, but it is certainly something I hold to be true.  While I believe I could easily kill elk with my .22-250 I wouldn’t try even if it was legal.  I have a .257 Roberts pushing 115g TSX’s to 3000fps and 120g Grand Slams and Partitions to 2900fps and am hesitant to use it on elk.  I want my game to die as quickly as possible with as little suffering as possible.

 What an oxymoron there is absoutely NOTHING humane about sneaking up on an unsuspectin critter shooting it chasing it down gutting cooking and eating it. And yes I'm a hunter.

The humanity comes from respecting the game animal and killing it as quickly and cleanly as possible.  For me that means choosing a suitable cartridge and placing it with the utmost care.  Yes, the animal still dies.

 I can't help but wonder how this arguement would be looked apoun by our foerfathers 125 yrs ago when they were killing for meat with things like 44-40.

I suspect many of them would have agreed and used something “better” if it was available.

The bottom line is that ANYTHING that shoots in the hands of a hunter will kill medium sized game. This does not hold true for a "rackhunter"

 A meathunter armed with a 22lr rifle is gonna be more effictive than a Trophyhunter taking a 500yd potshot with a 300win mag because they can't pass up the opurtuinaty to shoot at an animal.

Maybe, maybe not – there are way too many variables not considered.  I have seen quite a few shooters that would have no problem taking a 500 yard shot and making it count.  And yes, some of these are long past the need to hunt meat and are what you would consider “rackhunter”s.

Over the years I have passed on far more shots at elk than I have taken, but every shot taken has resulted in meat on the table.  I would much prefer the .300 Win Mag over a .22LR.  Two years ago I used a .45-70 with great success but did so with the full knowledge of the limitations imposed by my choice.  Placement counts for an awful lot, but it is not everything.

The flip side of your argument is that we don’t need to consider the suffering a game animal might endure on its way to our table.  Frankly, I find that argument repulsive.

Coyote Hunter, I am glad you took the time to answer his post. I was so baffled and amazed at his post, I was speechless.  I thought it was an anti-hunter writing that. :?

[R.W.Dale]

Sorry guys but I just don't buy it. To actually say that sombody is not on the same moral level because they reach into their gun cabnet and pull out a 30-30 instead of a 300wm I find it asinine to say the least.

 The whole morality arguement is based on the assumption that the animal instantly dies. Now I don't know about you but I've never seen a chest shot deer die on the spot using a 30-30. So by that logic a hunter using a 30-30 isn't doing the game animal justice by not using something that will cause instant death. Again I don' buy it.


 
QUOTE
The flip side of your argument is that we don’t need to consider the suffering a game animal might endure on its way to our table. Frankly, I find that argument repulsive.

 I said No such thing. I alawys feel a little sad for the game animal after a kill, however I don't believe that because X caliber was uesd the critter in question is any happier for it in the end.

 
QUOTE
I can't help but wonder how this arguement would be looked apoun by our foerfathers 125 yrs ago when they were killing for meat with things like 44-40.


I suspect many of them would have agreed and used something “better” if it was available.


 There was "better" back then 45-70,50-90 38-55 ect

 Even today people use obsolete and "underpowered" things such as .357mag ,30carbine, 7.62x39 and 30-30

 Again I think the reasoning is flawed. Just on the fact that if an animal has to be tracked it has suffered.

[jerkface11]

Here's a link to the bowhunting forum if you guys want to tell them they're all hunting wrong. Since the last time I checked deer don't fall over instantly dead from an arrow wound. Don't they usually run off and bleed to death?

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=9

[R.W.Dale]

Coyote Hunter, I am glad you took the time to answer his post. I was so baffled and amazed at his post, I was speechless.  

 You seem to have this problem anytime anyone disagrees with you.

[Slamfire]

When it comes to killing game, bullet placement is king. Next is a combination of bullet sectional density/construction. If you are shootin' a magnum round, and the animal is close you need one of the super premium bullets, even Nosler Partitions show some indication of incipient failure at impact velocities of 3100 fps. Since my rifle's velocity never exceeded 2900 fps I find the standard cup type bullets to be effective enough.  

[jro45]

I agree it is bullet placement that get the game. I do own some rifles that the bullet leaves my barrel at over 3100 fps. Thats why I need to know witch bullets are good enought to use and I don't like Barnes.

[Lawdog]

I agree it is bullet placement that get the game. I do own some rifles that the bullet leaves my barrel at over 3100 fps. Thats why I need to know witch bullets are good enought to use and I don't like Barnes.

If you are going to shoot high velocity rifles, any velocity over 3,000 fps., then you need to use a good premium quality bullet.  Lawdog
 

[Redhawk1]

Coyote Hunter, I am glad you took the time to answer his post. I was so baffled and amazed at his post, I was speechless.  

 You seem to have this problem anytime anyone disagrees with you.

I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me, but when you post such things as.

My pet peeve is the goofy "We owe it to the game animal to use a caliber that will provide humane kills" arguement.  

What an oxymoron there is absoutely NOTHING humane about sneaking up on an unsuspectin critter shooting it chasing it down gutting cooking and eating it. And yes I'm a hunter.  

It does not look like something a fellow hunter would say.  I was not the only one that replied to your post. Coyote Hunter pointed out the same thing. I guess he has a problem anytime anyone disagrees with him, but you failed to post the same reply to him.

I just call them as I see them.