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Offline R.W.Dale

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« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2005, 11:03:19 AM »
This whole nonsense topic needs to be locked. :D

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2005, 11:34:38 AM »
The advantages of the short and super short magnums isnÂ’t just advertising hype.  ItÂ’s a proven fact.  The shorter the rifle action(bolt) the stiffer it is thus making for a more inherently accurate rifle.  The shorter column of powder burns more efficiently/consistently than longer columns of powder thus giving you a inherently more accurate cartridge.  This has been proven time and time again by the benchrest crowd.  Anytime you can improve the accuracy of a rifle/cartridge combination then you have made an advancement that is worth wile to hunters.  While there are those of you that donÂ’t like or care for the new “short-fat” cartridges, they do offer advantages over older cartridges.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline Captain_Obvious

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« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2005, 12:53:50 PM »
The short mags have not been proven to be more accurate than the normal magnums. Sorry, but that's reality. Plus, in a hunting rifle, any increase in accuracy provided by the shorter powder column is insignificant. Most benchrest cartridges have pretty mild powder charges; thus, the ''push'' on the bullet is slightly more gradual and consequently more gentle, give a more smooth expansion. This is what makes the 6mm PPC-USA the world's most accurate rifle cartridge.

Aside from this, there is a lot more involved in inherent accuracy than the length of the case or the action, such as the barrel of the rifle, the bedding of that rifle in its stock, and so on, not to mention loads and bullets. You are not improving your rifle's accuracy by choosing a short mag over a regular mag, you are merely choosing one cartridge over another, THAT'S IT!

Additionally, the short magnum cartridges are less efficient with heavier bullets, in the same way that the 308 Winchester is less efficient than the 30-06 will bullets over 165 grains. Hate to tell you, but all they do is duplicate the performance of what's already out there. The 270 WSM is a fine round, and offers a 150-200 fps advantage over the 270 Winchester. That doesn't make it any more practical, and it cannot kill anything the 270 Winchester can't also kill.

The 7mm Remington Magnum offers greater efficiency with heavy-for-caliber bullets than either of the 7mm short mags, and in spite of catalog velocities listed as supposedly being higher with the short versions, this has not been the case over a chronograph. Using a variety of slow buring powders, the 7mm WSM can be loaded to exceed its factory performance when using bullets of 139-150 grains. Beyond that, performance falls off rapidly. The 7mm Remington Magnum, with a stout, but safe, dose of H-1000 or IMR-7828 powder can achieve a muzzle velocity of 3200 fps with a 160 grain bullet. Not all 7mm Remington Magnum rifles I've worked with have turned up that velocity, but each and every one chronographed at 3100 fps or better, shooting groups as small as a dime at 100 yards. 200 yard groupings have been very impressive.

The 300 WSM is the same way. It's a fine big game round, no doubt about this, but it still loses performance-wise to the 300 Winchester Magnum. The 300 Winchester Magnum's I've worked with have shot just as smooth and just as tight as the 300 WSM's I've worked with. No great difference in recoil either, I might add. The 300 Weatherby and 300 Remington Ultra Mag kick much harder.

Offline TX Devil Doc

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yup!
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2005, 01:06:12 PM »
FINALLY... someone comes out with it! Thanx, Lawdog. Short-fat cartridges DO have inherent advantages. Think of the 6mm BR and 6mm PPC. Short actions do as well. :-D

I have to ask myself, if they are not better, why would the manufacturers bring them out? The cost of large scale manufacturing (re-tooling, etc) is too immense to allow for this kind of frivolity. Poor marketing seems to kill a product far quicker than design. In regards to sales $$ vs ballistics, think of the 6mm Rem./.244 Rem. and how it compares to the .243 Win...
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Offline Captain_Obvious

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« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2005, 02:37:13 PM »
That's simple enough. They announce something new, that looks different. Then gunwriters like Wayne Van Zwoll and Craig Boddington go to work. Could it possibly be any easier?

The 6mm PPC-USA and 6mm BR have mild powder charges that result in a more gentle push on the bullet. The bench-rest guns also feature precision barrels and actions, regardless of those actions' lengths.

The 300 Jarrett is a full length magnum cartridge and it's more accurate than any of the short mags will ever be.

Offline 35Rem

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« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2005, 02:46:21 PM »
Just a couple of observations:

I have heard that the newly introduced cartridges are so accurate becuase they are using BRAND NEW tooling to make the rifles and ammunition.
Makes a LITTLE sence, being that the 30-06, and some similar rounds, has been around a while, is the most used reamer, bore, loaded round.

The other thing, these new cartridges are compared to factory rounds, which is fair, but... These new rounds are loaded to the max of their capability already. The  450 Marlin comes to mind.
Try loading a 300 win mag, or 30-06, 308, to it' POTENTIAL with the newest powders and bullets, and I don't see how the New cartridges offer much of anything.
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Offline Captain_Obvious

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« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2005, 04:47:44 PM »
35Rem wrote: ''Just a couple of observations:

I have heard that the newly introduced cartridges are so accurate becuase they are using BRAND NEW tooling to make the rifles and ammunition.
Makes a LITTLE sence, being that the 30-06, and some similar rounds, has been around a while, is the most used reamer, bore, loaded round.

The other thing, these new cartridges are compared to factory rounds, which is fair, but... These new rounds are loaded to the max of their capability already. The 450 Marlin comes to mind.
Try loading a 300 win mag, or 30-06, 308, to it' POTENTIAL with the newest powders and bullets, and I don't see how the New cartridges offer much of anything.''


They would never generally load the 300 Win. Mag, 30-06, or 308 with the new stuff because if they did that, the new stuff wouldn't sell very well. Suprisingly, though, they are stoking the new Nosler Accubond 180 grain load for the 300 Win. Mag to 3000 fps.

Offline 35Rem

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« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2005, 04:58:11 PM »
I think the point I was trying to make is that the new cartridges are introduced to duplicate factory loads from 30 to 100 years ago, just wrapped in a different package.  The new cartridges are maxed out to do this, albeit in a smaller package.  But, the older cartridges aren't maxed out, and can out perform the new stuff if loaded properly.
Therefore, what's the big deal with all the superdupershortmags?
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2005, 05:53:02 PM »
OK guys, a couple of you have stepped WAY OVER THE LINE here. You've deviated from the subject at hand and gone into a personal attack mode. I believe I've removed all such posts.

It ENDS NOW. Kipish? Both of you best get the message.


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Offline dave hall

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« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2005, 11:58:24 PM »
You guys no more about short mag's than I do.What do you guys think about one of the first short mag's the 350 Rem.Mag..Does it have a place,or should it stay dead.I'm getting one this week in a Ruger 77,but I always like to hear everyone's opinion.thanks.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2005, 04:18:39 AM »
Captain_Obvious -

“Short and fat” does not automatically mean accurate, whether we are talking about the 6mm PPC (which you call “the world's most accurate rifle cartridge”) or short magnums. All other factors being equal, however, “short and fat” does provide proven advantages which translate directly into “inherent” or “potential” accuracy.  It is up to the gunsmith and the shooter to take advantage of this potential.  Or, perhaps the rifleman is looking for something other than increased accuracy with short magnum, such as a shorter, lighter rifle?

From a big game hunting perspective the “short and fat” cartridges offer little advantage.  I am truly unhappy if my bolt guns donÂ’t group MOA or better and my leverguns donÂ’t group 1.5MOA.  But the reality is I hunt antelope to elk, practice regularly at ranges out to 400 yards, and a rifle that grouped 2MOA would be quite adequate for any range at which I would consider taking a shot.  This holds true for most hunters as well.  That does not mean I would not prefer to have all my rifles group 0.5MOA or even 0.25MOA, especially when practicing with clay pigeons from the 400-yard line.

For the average hunter, it is unimportant that the short magnums may be less efficient with the heavier bullets, as even with the long magnums the heaviest bullets are rarely used in my experience.  When is the last time I saw someone hunting elk with a .30-06 or a .300 Win Mag and a 220g bullet?  Never!  I shoot a 7mm Mag and have never found time or a need to load anything heavier than 160g, and even then I use a heavier bullet than many 7mm Mag shooters.  For my .300 Win Mag the heaviest I have loaded is 180g, well below the maximum bullet weight. If I was loading a .300 Short I would undoubtedly stick with bullets in the 165-180g range and be quite satisfied.  That the Short might be somewhat less efficient than a Win Mag with the heaviest bullets would be no cause for concern.  Does it matter that the Short would not have any capability that the Long does not?  No, the real advantage of the Short is in the rifle that can be built around it.  In the field, “short and fat” goes with shorter, lighter-weight rifles and medium-weight bullets.  While it is true that the Shorts cannot provide any capability that the Longs do not already provide, it is also true that the Longs do not provide any significant advantage over the Shorts.

By the way, WW loads their .300 Win Mag180g Power point to over 3100fps and even their .30-30 seems to be loaded significantly faster than most load data.  IÂ’m not buying your argument that “They would never generally load the 300 Win. Mag, 30-06, or 308 with the new stuff because if they did that, the new stuff wouldn't sell very well.”  Seems to me they are loading it pretty well up to the cartridges capability, given that they have to ensure their ammo is safe in every gun out there.



Ron Byers –

“velocity, which equals less drop at distance, which equals greater accuracy.”  Wrong.  I would be happy to take a slower 1.0MOA .308 Short and demonstrate how it will be more accurate than a 3.0MOA .300 Long at any range.  Bullet drop has nothing to do with group size.
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Offline TX Devil Doc

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excellent...
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2005, 04:47:51 AM »
Excellent technical and historical dissertation, CH.  8)
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2005, 05:17:21 AM »
OK I've deleted some more. But this is the last time. If it goes off topic again the thread ends.


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Offline Captain_Obvious

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« Reply #103 on: September 27, 2005, 05:41:08 AM »
Wait a second, I never said short and fat was more accurate, I said one of the reasons for the greater inherent accuracy found in cartridges like the 308, and to a greater degree, the 6mm PPC-USA and 6mm BR is that the comparatively mild powder charge generates a smoother push on the bullet. If you reload, you would know, its tougher to make a very stout load as accurate as a more moderate load. The military has taken an interest in the 300 Winchester Magnum due to its prospects for inherent accuracy.

Second- 175 grain bullets for 7mm Magnums and 200 grain bullets for .300 Magnums sell pretty good and are quite popular, whether you like it or not. The standard-length magnums utilize these with greater efficiency. Greater efficiency with heavier bullets, like it or not, is significant. The alleged powder efficiency advantage people have been making a big fuss about in the short mags might sound pretty good to someone buying a new rifle, but in field, it means nothing. The 300 Winchester Magnum is more efficient powder-wise than the 300 Remington Ultra Mag, but regardless, the added velocity, energy, and trajectory of the Ultra Mag is the greater advantage.

Shorter, lighter rifles are not  necessarily an advantage in themselves. When dealing with magnum cartridges of any type, shorter and lighter can increase muzzle blast and recoil. I also find light rifles less stable.

Your statement that factory loaded bullets are loaded pretty well up to their potential is simply nonsense. Every catridges I listed, 308, 30-06, 300 Winchester Magnum, can all be loaded well beyond catalog ballistics. Handloads for the 308 and 30-06 can be made to match advertised velocities from the new Hornady Light Magnum ammo. The 270 Winchester was, at one time, loaded to about 3150 fps with a 130 grain bullet. If that were the case nowadays, I doubt the 270 WSM would be selling to well. Keep in mind, the 270 Winchester's reputation for speed comes from somewhere.

Offline Captain_Obvious

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« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2005, 05:47:47 AM »
Dave Hall wrote: ''You guys no more about short mag's than I do.What do you guys think about one of the first short mag's the 350 Rem.Mag..Does it have a place,or should it stay dead.I'm getting one this week in a Ruger 77,but I always like to hear everyone's opinion.thanks.''

Is the 350 the one the Remington Guide Gun is chambered in?

Offline Brithunter

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« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2005, 06:04:30 AM »
Hi All,

    Well the Hyper velocity craze is nothing new  :roll: in fact it started in about 1905 when dear old Sir Charles Ross started playing with the then new .03 US Government cartridge case (which at that time of course was the 30-03) but could not reach his goal of a 140 grain 0.287" (7mm) bullet at over 3000fps, so in conjunction with Eley Bros of Birmingham he develpoed the .280 ross. which they thought so fast and with such a flat trajectory that the resulting sporting rifle had a stand up rear sight which was marked 0-500. Yep they really thought that they didn't need any significant hold over right out to 500 yards  :)  Now with todays modern powders the velocities reached back in 1906 when the final .280 Ross cartridge was launched can be easily improved upon.

    Then of course there was Charles Newton and his Buffalo Rifle Co, and later still the master sales man Roy Weatherby, Hmmmm ..... I wonder just how many wounded animals ole Roy is responsible for after folks swallowed his outragous claims for his cartridges :roll:

    As some one pointed out the 6mm PPC and 6mm Benchrest cartridges are extremly accurate, however here in the UK we have a minimum muzzle energy (1700 Ft lbs) which must be reached to make the cartridge legal for hunting Deer. To reach it requires overloads, a guy in a club I used to belong to got the chronograph data verified so he could use his 6mm PPC for deer. However after the first loading he had glue the primers in their pockets as the pockets had expanded so much  that with out the glue the primers fell out. He thought that this was OK :shock:  after I found out  made sure that I never shot anywhere near him again :cry:

    The Bench rest cartridges were designed to put their bullets in very small groups at a couple of hundred yards, they were not designed to hunt with, bench rest guns are normally single shot so the short fat case prestents no prolems in feeding when they are entered in a guide rail and pushed directly straight into the chamber, again repeaters were never in the equasion when they were designed. The funny thing is that the very same folks who are proposing thise mild cartridges for hunting also often decry the old 30-30 as inadequete :?

    As I said earlier I simple cannot see any real advantages to these new short magnums, never even had a 30-06 till earlier this year when I traded into one just in case :wink:  The .300 WM was sold off several years ago and I never even got around to hunting with it tending to use the normal cartridges for our small deer.

Offline dave hall

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« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2005, 06:33:49 AM »
Captain_Obvious

 Yes, that the 350 rem.mag. I'm asking about.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #107 on: September 28, 2005, 04:17:52 AM »
Captain Obvious –

I do reload and find that the key to accuracy is shot-to-shot consistency.  Many of my most consistent and accurate loads are just below maximum for a given combination of components.  While I have often found very consistent and accurate loads at reduced velocities, these are generally of little interest to me as hunting loads.  For example, 13.5g HS-6 behind a 300-350g hardcast in my .45-70 provides extremely accurate loads in the area of 1100fps, along with minimal recoil – about 7 foot-pounds.  I have developed numerous accurate loads in the 1500-2000fps range using a variety of components, but my hunting loads are a heavy dose of H4198 and a North Fork 350g bullet for about 2183fps and recoil in the 38-39 foot-pound range when the scope is mounted.  There is nothing mild about the hunting loads but they are also very accurate and are easily the most consistent loads I have ever developed – 4 and 5-shot strings usually exhibit Extreme Spreads under 10fps and often under 5fps with Standard Deviations as low as 1.8fps.  In the bolt guns I use the same methodology to find my hunting loads – work up to max in 0.5g increments using 4-5 cartridges at each powder level, then compare accuracy and consistency for each powder charge.  The loads I select will be almost always be closer to max than the starting charge.  Accurate loads are where you find them but it is rare that an accurate load will be inconsistent.

My comment about the 175Â’s and 200Â’s stands.  Yes, I know people use them, but when I ask people at the range or in the field what they are using it is invariably the 160Â’s or lighter for the 7mm and 180 or lighter in the .300Â’s.  Has nothing to do with what I “like”, just an observation. A lot of 7mm Mag fans prefer the 150g weight and a lot of .300 shooters use 165-168g. When they use X and Failsafe bullets some folks go even lighter.  The lighter weight bullets, regardless of construction, would not be my choice either.

“Shorter, lighter rifles are not necessarily an advantage in themselves.”  Well, IÂ’d say thatÂ’s up to each individual shooter to decide.  The flip side is that longer, heavier rifles are not necessarily an advantage in themselves, but IÂ’ll bet you donÂ’t hump the mountainsides with a 26” heavy-barrel benchrest gun, do you?  The Shorts do seem to be more efficient with mid-weight bullets and the reduced powder charge necessary to launch a bullet at a given velocity help offset any increase in recoil caused by the lower rifle weight.  Roughly speaking, a 2 grain decrease in powder will reduce recoil about as much as adding a quarter-pound of weight to the rifle.

My comment about the factory cartridges was specifically about the Winchester .30-30 and .300 Win Mag, and I stand behind it.  The velocity of the Winchester .30-30 loads I have chronoÂ’ed are below that of my handloads, but the factory ammo has to be safe in every rifle, a qualifier I included in my statement.  No way I would shoot my .30-30 handloads in older rifles or even in any other rifle other than mine.  I will retract my statement about WW loading their 180g PowerPoints to faster than 3100fps.  I was working from memory and thought they had chronoÂ’ed just over 3100fps.  Checking my records they chronoÂ’ed just under 3100fps, but they are still about 40fps faster than my handloads.  Also, checking my manuals, I found maximum data for both cartridges that are under the chronoÂ’ed velocities for the Winchester loads.  Federal 160g Nosler Partitions for the 7mm Mag seem to be in the same boat – faster than my handloads, faster than some max load data, slower than other data. I will also concede that handloaders can push the limits to achieve higher velocities than factory ammo because they are working with specific firearms.  A case in point is my .257 Roberts, for which I started with “+P” data from several sources and developed my own loads using different combinations of components.  Factory “+P+” data canÂ’t touch my .257 Roberts loads when it comes to velocity, but I wouldnÂ’t shoot my loads in any other rifle and, while I doubt my .257 Roberts loads exceed 52,000 CUP, I doubt they conform to SAMMI “+P” pressures of 48,000 CUP either – but my rifle is a 1989 Ruger not some converted relic from WWI.  Again, the point is that factory ammo has to be safe in every firearm, while handloads do not, as my original statement indicated.
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Offline Patriot_1776

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« Reply #108 on: September 28, 2005, 04:34:34 AM »
Cartridges I can live without?  Hmmmmmmm..... Let me think.....

I guess the ones I don't have?


:D
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Offline NONYA

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« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2005, 06:43:24 AM »
Damn coyote I wish I had the resources to work up loads like that.How much experience do you have with the 7 mag?Last year I was shooting 150 gr Nosler ballistic tips and Partitions and got some very decent groups,I just loaded up some 160 gr Accubonds with 60grs of IMR 4350 and the first 3 round group I shot was better than anything i got from the 150's,Im not sure if its the accubonds or the weight difference but they are quite a bit more consistent than the 150,s.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2005, 02:24:20 PM »
NONYA –

YouÂ’re already reloading so you have all the resources except maybe the chronograph.  I use a Shooting Chrony F-1 Master which normally sells at Midwayusa.com for $99, less on sale.  Right now you can get a Shooting Chrony Beta Master, a better model, for $99.  http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=244882   The cheapest chronographs IÂ’ve seen are rebuilt Shooting Chrony models you can get for $49.95 from the manufacturer.  (I suspect most of these were trade-ins for upgrades.)  See http://www.shootingchrony.com/products_SCMMCM.htm and scroll to the bottom of the page.

Other than that its just a matter of careful load development and record keeping.  I have a spreadsheet in which I record all my data.  The spreadsheet calculates Average Velocity, Standard Deviation, Extreme Spread, and in some places muzzle energy.  If interested drop me a PM or email and IÂ’ll send it to you.

Been shooting the 7mm Mag since 1981 but have only tried a handful of bullets in it.  Used the 160g Grand Slam for most of those years, getting 0.5” groups and a dead animal every time I pulled the trigger.  Barnes 160g XLCÂ’s work great in the accuracy and velocity department, but I went with 160g North Fork bullets last year and plan to stay with them.  Dropped the velocity a bit but got the best group ever at 0.266” center-to-center, slightly under one caliber diameter.  Federal factory 160g Partitions have been my backup loads for many years and have shot very well with good velocity (2974fps last time I checked in Â’04).  Never tried the Partitions in the field, though.

Good luck with your loads.
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Offline NONYA

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« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2005, 03:49:13 PM »
Yhe from what i have seen the 160's are the way to go,cant wait to get those accubonds out and do my field testing,I have 4 doe MD,1 doe WT and 2 doe antelope tags to test them with,ought to give me a pretty good idea how they perform at diferent distances.All my loading is hunting oriented so I do my load testing in the field and base my opinions off of hunting situations,other than accuracy I believe this is the only way to really know how your bullet will perform on an animal regardless of all the data you can get from a reloading book and downrange energy formulas,sectional density,ect ect.I can tell you from first hand experience the ballistic tips are crap when it comes to big game hunting and the partitions have never let me down,great weight retention and they deliver amazing amounts of energy at long raqnges.Thanx for the info!
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Offline hillbill

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« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2005, 05:26:25 PM »
ditto on the 6.5x55 but ill have to keep my .223. i hate wasteing all my tediously reloaded 6.5 stuff on groundhogs and yotes when i can get good shooting .223 stuff so cheap already loaded.

Offline Slamfire

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« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2005, 07:08:29 PM »
Quote from: Coyote Hunter


That only proves the marketing people had some success.  As I recall there was tremendous hype for the Studebaker, too.


Actually, the Studebaker Speedster was a true Grand Touring Car in the European mould. Quite fast, too.  :)
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2005, 07:19:12 PM »
Quote from: Slamfire

Actually, the Studebaker Speedster was a true Grand Touring Car in the European mould. Quite fast, too.  :)


Nevertheless, a solution looking for a problem.  Kind of like the Short and Shorter.  ;)
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Offline Brithunter

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« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2005, 11:22:43 PM »
Hi All,

     Hmm although the car may be off topic, in fact thinking about both cars and cartridges may actually go together in this. American typical cars to be honest are not much good in the UK, OK if you stick to Motorways and bigger towns and cities, however once you get onto the minor roads and the smaller towns let alone villages, then my friend you are having problems. Especially on the country roads if you met a tractor then one of you and that normally means the car is backing up till a passing point can be found. American cars are too long and wide especially the older models.

     Cartridges can be compared along the same lines, hunting in the UK & Europe is different to that in the US in a lot of cases. Sure there is Alpine hunting in central Europe and speedy cartridges like the 6.5 Schuler and the 8x68S are quite often used to counter the stiif winds encoutered in cross valleys shots. Of course we have woods hunting just like you do in the US but here the ideas have evolved differently. American developed the Lever action whislt europe split along two paths, there are those who still prefer the single shot rifle and several models are still made for that market and of course Europe but not the UK went with Drillings and combination guns. The other path was the short bolt action with a full stock, the "Stutzen". Old cartridges like the 7x57 using the 175 grn RN bullets suit this wooded world very well and then we have the real woods round like the 9x56 Mannlicher and the 9x57 Mauser, 9.3x57, 9.5x57.etc

     America went for speed in most cases, the one odd ezception is the 06 Government cartridge which was kept conservative for some reason, when it was introduced it lagged behind in velocity from te cartridge whihc caused it's adoption which of course was the 7.92mm in the new 1905 loading using the Spitzer 154 grn bullet at 2900fps.

Offline RaySendero

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« Reply #116 on: October 05, 2005, 04:10:57 PM »
Man, do I ever have a headache from reading this thread and I missed the posts GB said he deleted.

There are way too many issues, non-issues, good technical stuff and bad.

Really want to jump in but think I'll take some Tylenol first. 8)
    Ray

Offline RaySendero

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« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2005, 05:38:36 PM »
OK - Tylenol is working but I'll stick to just the short/fat cartridge issue.



There is just too many factors between bench rest and hunting cartridges & rifles to say that a short/fat cartridge will produce any accuracy improvement for hunting rifles.  However, I do acknowledge that marketing people in the business say otherwise - Think about it and believe who you want.


    Its not a bench rest rifle,
    Its not a bench rest cartridge (bore = 270),
    It has another number for the grove diameter = .277 and
    The case IS NOT short/fat.[/list:u]

So without any of the marketing hype,
I wonder how it can still truly shoot dime size groups at 100 yards?
8)[/list]
    Ray

Offline Slamfire

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« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2005, 05:41:57 PM »
Quote from: 2ndtimer
As long as we are inviting flames, (and roasting Col. Boddington), I would go so far as to say, while the 30-06 is a great and versatile cartridge, I believe that probably 80% of the hunters and shooters using it would be better off with a 6.5x55 Swede.  Much less recoil, equal effectiveness on deer sized game (which is probably all that 80% of USA hunters realistically go after) and the potential for better accuracy.  Just to prove that I am not a "only really old calibers are worthwhile" kind of guy, my other rifle is chambered for the .270WSM, which I am wondering how it escaped Boddington's hit list.  (It doesn't do anything you can't do with a standard .270 Win, sometimes has feeding issues, ammo is expensive, etc.)  I wouldn't give up either one of them, but if I do get another rifle, it will either be another 6.5x55 or maybe a .260 Remington.   Kind of going for "understated effectiveness" for medium game.


Welcome to the .264 diameter club.  :D
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline tbone

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« Reply #119 on: October 07, 2005, 08:11:55 AM »
So the answer is once again to use what you're comfortable with?  Great, because I don't mind the recoil and my new 300WM is a 1/2 MOA gun.  That is far better than my 30-06 which is supposed to be a "better" cartridge.  Guess which one goes with me into the woods?