Author Topic: Cartridges we can live without...  (Read 9352 times)

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Offline lilabner

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« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2005, 01:35:32 PM »
I love these cartridge discussions! Has anyone else noticed that more and more powerful cartridges are in use on game that hasn't gotten any larger? I just got home from an antelope hunt and was shocked to see that some of my fellow hunters were deploying 7MM mags and even 300 mags against the petite pronghorn. Me? I shot a .243, which I also use on our coastal blacktails. I hunt elk with a 30-06, while some shooting writers suggest nothing smaller than a .338 mag.  I'm not criticizing anyone here - just observing that with good shot placement, you can kill animals cleanly with a cartridge using less than 80 gr. of powder. As for the explosion of new cartridges, I think it's a good thing. If the gun manufacturers don't come out with shiny new stuff, how can they stay in business, and what would we do without them?

Offline NONYA

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« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2005, 05:39:05 PM »
your 243 will kill an antelope or deer just as dead as my 7 Mag but not at the distance of the 7 mag.When you hunt big game in wide,open country like here in Montana the extra range a rifle like a 7 mag gives you can make all the difference in the world.400+ yard shots are not uncommon and i wouldnt even attempt a shot like that with a 243,i shot my first deer and antelope with a 243,I am talking from experience.
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Offline LouD

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« Reply #122 on: October 12, 2005, 04:17:03 PM »
Well, I just returned from a Cow Elk hunt in NE Nevada where I used my 300 WSM to take an animal of about 600-700 lbs at a bit over 300 yards.  This followed spotting a group easily a couple of miles out on a ridge, a stalk that lasted nearly 2 hours, including the several hundred yards on belly-crawl from one sage to the next.  Another couple of hours waiting for one of the bigger of the 22 cows to arise, while watching the 6 bulls, one with cows being a 6x6, the five hovering close including 2 even bigger, a spike, and maybe a 5x5.  

Marketing hype?  Perhaps...   Redundant with traditional catridges ? Maybe...  

~300 pounds of Elk in my freezer ?   Yessiree !!!!

I personally like the WSM's (I got a 7mm too),  but what the heck do I know....
Lou D. - Reno, Nevada

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #123 on: October 12, 2005, 05:35:22 PM »
TxJester, you have asked for e-mail notice of new posts to this thread but your e-mail address is invalid and e-mails are bouncing. Fix it ASAP.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline loaded4bear

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« Reply #124 on: October 28, 2005, 07:04:02 PM »
There are many cartridges that serve no useful purpose for me, & I could happily go my whole life without  ever dealing with them. But who am I, or any other enthusiast for that matter (including gun writers), to decide which cartridge should live and which should die? Some of my favorites are not exactly burning up the sales charts of the major ammo manufacturers, but I wouldn't want to see someone arbitrarily cast them into the cartridge graveyard just because THEY don't care for them!
 
Limiting ammo choices would only serve to stifle the shooting sports. How would you like to eat at a buffet where your only choices were meatloaf & mashed potatoes...pretty boring huh???
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Offline QuailKiller

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« Reply #125 on: October 29, 2005, 04:44:23 PM »
Sorry, but I think this is the dumbest thread I have ever seen on any forum.  

If we all had the same cartridges this would be a boring world.  Also, I don't see why some of you think the 220Swift is obselete, because it is one of the best varmint rounds there is.  Give me Swift over a 22-250 any day!  Also, the 264 Win Mag is a great round for long range shooting.  People underestimate the power of 6.5 bullets.  The 300 Savage is an American classic that shouldn't be forgotten, same as the 257 Roberts.  I'll take a Roberts over a 243 any day also.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2005, 09:28:03 AM »
Quote from: QuailKiller
Sorry, but I think this is the dumbest thread I have ever seen on any forum.  


Yet you took time to respond to it?


Quote

If we all had the same cartridges this would be a boring world.  Also, I don't see why some of you think the 220Swift is obselete, because it is one of the best varmint rounds there is.  Give me Swift over a 22-250 any day!  Also, the 264 Win Mag is a great round for long range shooting.  People underestimate the power of 6.5 bullets.  The 300 Savage is an American classic that shouldn't be forgotten, same as the 257 Roberts.  I'll take a Roberts over a 243 any day also.


Nothing wrong with the Swift, although I prefer the .22-250.  My next centerfire .22 will likely go the other way, to a .223 instead of the Swift as I can’t think of any practical advantage the Swift offers over the .22-250.

The 6.5’s are OK, too, but again I would rather have a .25-06 or a .270 Win.  What does the .300 Savage offer that I can’t get in another package that I like even better, like a .308?  Nothing.  As to the Roberts, it’s a nifty little round but you pretty much need to reload to take advantage of its capabilities.  Might as well get a .25-06 again.  (That said, I have a Roberts and do not have a .25-06.)

But we agree on one thing – I’d take the Roberts any day over a .243.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Captain_Obvious

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« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2005, 02:36:28 PM »
NONYA wrote "your 243 will kill an antelope or deer just as dead as my 7 Mag but not at the distance of the 7 mag.When you hunt big game in wide,open country like here in Montana the extra range a rifle like a 7 mag gives you can make all the difference in the world.400+ yard shots are not uncommon and i wouldnt even attempt a shot like that with a 243,i shot my first deer and antelope with a 243,I am talking from experience."



In November of 2004, I went deer hunting in Canada. I used a 243 Winchester, the other two guys I hunted with used a 300 Winchester Magnum and a 264 Winchester Magnum. The first deer of the trip was mine, killed at 110-115 yards, from 243 Remington Accu-tip ammo. Big 12 point buck, on an abandoned logging road. On the second-to-last day, I killed another buck from the same stand, another 12 point, again with 243 Accu-Tip ammo. Neither required a follow up shot, by the way. Both other hunters killed bucks, one of them a very impressive animal, dressing out at 210 lbs.

Offline RicMic

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« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2005, 05:27:01 PM »
Well, nuts.  I've read this whole post and I'm WAY on the wrong side.  I have a .300WSM, 25-20 bolt, and a 16GA single.  Hell even my Redhawk is a magnum.  I wonder if my muzzleloader is okay (prolly not, it's a 209 inliner magnum).  I know I'm obsolete, I take Viagra for that but, what can I give my gun besides - away?
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Offline 351 power

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« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2005, 03:27:13 AM »
Some hunters can't afford to change rifles just to stay in fashion. I think that articles like we are talking about are counter productive to the brotherhood of hunting, in general.
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Offline 358Win

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« Reply #130 on: April 14, 2006, 11:56:37 PM »
Hum, cartridges we should get rid of??  Well that sounds un-constitutional to me.  But I may as well add my nickels worth to this.

1) All rimfires, if you can't reload it you've lost about 90% of the fun in my book.

2) Not much point in anything smaller than a 6mm bore diameter.

3) In the 6mm/.243 bore we need about 3 cartridges:
   a) a small case holding maybe 20 grains of powder at the most. That would make a fine small game cartridge.  With just a bit more umph than the Hornet.  Great for the 60 and 75 grain bullets.
   b) a medium case, 30 to 35 grains of powder, like the 6mm PPC for the bench rest crowd.
   c) a small rocket with about 50 grains of powder capacity i.e. the .243 Win, not enough is gained by going larger to really make a difference.

4) The .257 bores and the .264 bores are so close together that we should just pick one.  Me I'd go with a 260 Rem and that would be the end of the story.

5) The .277 and .284 bores have the same problem, so bye bye to the short list of 270's.  Now we've gotten up to a bore that can handle some more powder capacity.  Anything that will throw it's midweight bullets faster than 3000 fps is a complete waste of time.  Don't want to have performance problems at 50 feet from bullet failure.  Breaking that speed limit is loud, has too much muzzle blast, more recoil than necessary and is hard on barrels to boot.  So I'd grant the 280 Remington as the only 7mm of any real utility.

6) Thirty caliber well I'd grant survival to the 308 Winchester and the 30-06.  If you need the energy of a 300 Magnum you really just need a bigger bullet.

7) 8mm including the 325 WSM really do the same job as the 30-06, don't need 'um.

8)  338 bore, now things are starting to get interesting.  For the light end, the new 338 Federal is the weak sister of the MAGNIFICENT 358 Winchester and may even be a commercial sucsess story.  Then there is the wonderful 340 Weatherby.  Leave out the 338 Winchester, why stop there when the 340 is a real BIG game rifle for the bullets of 250 grains on up.

9) We are approaching heaven now.  The AMAZING 358 Winchester will drive a 250 grain slug at 2400 fps for 92% of the energy of the GRAND 35 Whelen using 15% less powder.  The 358 Win with 150 to 180 grain 357 pistol bullets makes a grand varmint rifle.  The 150 grain slugs can even break the 3000 fps barrier if desired.  The 180 Hornady designed for Single Shot Pistols is spectacular for Coyotes and is designed to operate in the 2200 to 2300 fps range.  This load is also the funnest plinker for pop cans and milk jugs ever thought of.  The 200 grain spitzers can be pushed in the 2700 fps to 2800 fps range.  At these speeds comparing a 7mm Rem Mag with a 150 grain at 3200 fps and with both rifles zeroed at 200 yards, the drop is 6 inches for the 7mm and 9 inches for the 358.  In feild terms that small gain in trajectory for the 7mm Mag is paid for with much worse recoil, muzzle blast, noise and a larger heavier rifle to boot.  The 225 grain bullets will go 2550 to 2600 with great trajectory.  The 250 grain at 2400 only drop 10.5 inches at 300 yards when zeroed at 200.  This is a wonderful ticket for Elk and Moose.  If one desires to go after BIG bears the 280 grain Swift and the 310 grain Woodleighs are just the ticket.  Although for this job I'd really rather go with either the 35 Whelen or the 358 Shooting Times Alaskan, which is the 340 Weatherby on steriods.  So I'd grant the 35 bore 3 cartridges 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen, and 358 ST Alaskan.

10) 9.3mm X 62mm is amazingly efficient (366 bore) and might even allow the 57mm length also as it is a bigger, heavier version of the 358 Winchester.  Same ballistics with a 286 grain as the 358 Winchester with a 250 grain.

11) Well I'm sure by now you're thinking he's got to include the grand old 375 H&H.  But in this bore there are two I like better: the 376 Steyr which is a lengthened 284 Winchester case with a full size 0.50 rim and base and the 0.475 shoulder.  Case length on this one is 2.36 and case capacity is a bit over 60 grains.  This one drives the 300 grain bullets at just over 2400 fps which is optimal for maximum penetration.  The other .375 is the .375/325 WSM which is ballistic twin of the 375 H&H in a short action rifle.

12) Time to wrap up.  The last two are the 416 Taylor, which is the 458 Winchester case necked down to 416.  Which is very close in performance to the 416 Remington with less powder burned.  Finally the 458 Lott which overcomes the weaknesses of the 458 Winchester.  The 458 Win usually chronographs at about 2050 fps, while the Lott gets an honest 2300 fps with the 500 grain bullets.

   So now that we have our list of keepers, we can just throw all the rest out.  If you want or need to live with only one rifle, get a Browning BLR in 358 Winchester and you are set for everything in the world.  The 310 Woodleigh Solid has even taken Elephant and Cape Buffalo.

Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #131 on: April 16, 2006, 08:25:22 AM »
I hate to admit it, but I read that stupid article, I mean all of it. I guess it
was a weak moment for me, like right now I guess in giving this article any additional thought.

loadedforbear, I like your comment, the fact that someone would decide for us what we can use is a joke, kinda like Liberalism, someone knowing what is best for me. The marketplace should make that decision & does.

tbone, I have one of those .5moa or under 300WM's myself. I use my 06 alot, but I have applications for the 300WM & use it then. I can utilize this advantage & it does not matter who does or does not understand this.

I think that Mr. Boddington is being a hypocrite here. He knows the WSSM's have even less value here than some that he has black listed, but he is doing his "job".
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Offline fknipfer

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« Reply #132 on: April 16, 2006, 02:53:01 PM »
With 200 million guns in the US give or take a few hundred thousand.  Why do we come up with new cartridges, we have never come up with anything so outstanding that it storms the market.
The gun companies come up with new cartidges and gimmiks to sell guns and nothing else.  Look what happened to Winchester, every year or so it came up with a new cartridge, .307, .356, .358, 375Win, but they didn't storm the market and they are almost gone and so is Winchester.  My list for keeping is the 22LR, .243cal, 30-06cal, 45-70 and the old relable 12ga shotgun.  What else would you need.  I must admit I have a few other caliber but they are self-indulgence only.

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Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #133 on: April 16, 2006, 04:45:54 PM »
And self-indulgence can be good therapy & oops, I feel it coming on again!  :)
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Offline Casull

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« Reply #134 on: April 16, 2006, 06:16:04 PM »
I can't really argue with your choices FKNIPFER, as those are pretty much common sense IMHO.  However, I have been reading this thread and trying to keep from laughing and getting mad at the same time.  All of these attacks on Boddington, just because he gives his opinion.  Whether you agree or disagree (and I have done both in connection with his articles), they are just one man's opinion.  I love the 30'06, but does this mean I should get upset because some of the guys out there actually think the 6.5 x 55 is somehow not just its equal, but its better (lol).  Heck no, I like hearing all kinds of opinions.  I don't see any reason to get angry about it.  The obvious theme throughout is that "what I have or like is the only good choice", and anyone that doesn't agree is a horse's ass.  I have no use for a .358 Winchester, as it won't do anything that my '06 or .338 Winchester mag. won't do better (but then again that's just my opinion).  But I don't get angry when someone who has, and enjoys, one thinks its better than my choices.  By the same token, there is no reason to get upset because Boddington writes an article that claims that your favorite caliber is obsolete.  Maybe he's right and maybe he's wrong, but like just about everything else involved in the discussion of calibers and guns (with the obvious exception of gun control, which is almost always wrong), its all good if it gets us to discussing the strengths and weaknesses of various cartridges.
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