Great Remington Debate

[sprest22]

I like Remington products and have had no problems with them working the way they were supposed to.The only thing I don't like is the finish rusting quickly on the 870 express models.

[huntswithdogs]

I've always liked Remington. Their customer service hasn't done me wrong on any of the times I've called for help. I've shot a lot of their rifles and shotguns without any of the troubles that I've heard from others.


HWD

[cal sibley]

I think the major problem with Remington is they've become a victim of their own success.  Speaking only of rifles, I have 8 of them in my gun cabinet, mostly model 700s and Classics.  Most of my Remingtons are from the 70s and 80s and are very accurate.  It's the odd Remington of that period that won't group 5 shots in under an inch.  Todays Remingtons, by comparison, are poor.  My last 3 have all required glass bedding, barrel floating and trigger work to make them shoot as I'd like.  Do they shoot well now?  Yes, as good as the earlier ones, but only after my spending an extra $200.-250. to get them to that level.  Don't preach about your wonderful accuracy, then make me spend that kind of extra money to get that accuracy.  When you do that the choir isn't listening, and I suspect a lot of shooters today aren't listening.  Maybe had my earlier rifles not be so good I wouldn't be so disenchanted with todays offering.  Just one mans opinion.  Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

[Lawdog]

Why not post this on the "Bolt Action" forum so you can get the opinions of others and not just those of Remington fans?

I own a fnumber of Remington's(M721's, M722's, M725 and four M700 BDL's) that shoot and work great BUT all were made before 1980.  My troubles started with the purchase of a M700 BDL in .308 caliber in 1987.  No matter what we did, short of doing stock work, the rifle wouldn't shoot groups under 4" @ 100 yards.  I sent the rifle back to Remington, as per their request, for service.  After hearing nothing  for four weeks I called Remington's Customer Service department and was told that they had never received my rifle.

After reading them the date, time and the name of the person that signed for the delivery from the UPS receipt they managed to find my rifle.  They promised to get back to me within 72 hours with a report on my rifle.  WRONG.  A week later I called them again and get a report that they could not find anything wrong with my rifle after inspecting it.  I asked if they fired it to check the grouping it gave.  NO, but they would and get back to me.

Again a week later I'm back on the phone and get told they had mailed a report to me and I should have it shortly and to call them back after I had read it.  Came by pony express I guess because it took near two weeks for the report to get here.  The report said that after test firing the rifle they found nothing wrong and that groupings of 4" @ 100 yards was WITHIN COMPANY STANDARDS.  After discussing this with my attorney and a few letters to Remington by him Remington finely refunded my money, AFTER just over 11 months.

Stupid me I figured that this was an isolated incident and a few years later I again bought another M700 BDL.  Got it home and dissembled it for cleaning.  The inletting of the action looked like it had been done with a box axe by a cross eyed baboon.  Again I returned to the store where I bought it, it was a special ordered item as he didn't have what I wanted in stock, and showed him the stock.  We again called Remington and again they said return the rifle for service.  So I did.  To make a LONG story short it only took 9 months to get satisfaction out of Remington this time.  I went through this same B.S. with a M870 Marine 12 ga. that I got for a duty shotgun.  I sold it(some other sucker has that problem child) and bought a Winchester Defender model and have been very happy that I did.

If you have the bad luck to have a problem with a Remington product, I wish you GOOD LUCK as their customer service department really doesn't exist.  I know of many others that can and will tell you about the nightmares they have had with Remington's Customer Service Department.  What good is a product when the company won't back their product and that is why, until things change at Remington, I can't and won't recommend them to anyone.  Lawdog

I can give you SIX good reasons why NOT to buy NEW Remington rifles,

1.]  hideous safety

2.]  flimsy extractors

3.]  brazed on bolt handle

4.]  declining quality control

5.]  non existent customer service

6.]  a trigger group made from stamped metal

I still think you need to post this where everyone can get a chance to give their opinions.  Lawdog
 

[JPSaxMan]

Good idea, I will.

Lawdog, I'd still love to know (you never told us last time) if you actually had these experiences (the six reasons).  :?

[JPSaxMan]

This was split from the Remington forum on suggestion from Lawdog. My question was what are your thoughts on Remington? There have been many conflicting views with Remington and it's strategies (and marketing strategies) and I just wanted to know everyone's :money: on it. Thanx!

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

:idea: Thoughts on ol Remmy.

In a nut shell---they still make a decent shot thrower and forgot how to make a bullet thrower.

I currently own 4 Remingtons----2 ex NE State Patrol 870 trade-ins----a 20ga Youth Express Syn modded for HD duties---I know I know----a lot of overlap but thats what I like 870's for---I own Brownings for hunting(BPS & Citori)---and camo Benelli Nova for the really nasty stuff.

And a 1990 production 552 Speedmaster purchased NIB in '03. They ruined the 552 line in '94 when they went to the monte carlo stock(made the sights unusable) and shiney finish(ugly). I owned a '94 model that was junk--other than the unusable sights and ugly stock. I took a chance on the new(older) 552 because I like the idea of using shorts--longs and long rifles in an autoloading .22------plus the sights are usable and the wood is matte finished----I have the BDL grade. This has been a good gun for me so far---no complaints.

On to the bolt actions----I've owned at least 10 Remington bolt actions(700 and Model 7 and 710)---probably more but I can't remember exactly----I do remember they were ALL ABSOLUTE JUNK---would never shoot straight even with all the tweaking----I kept on buying into the myth of Remington accuracy---what a load of BS. Not to mention the horror story of my buddy's Custom Shop rifle.

There are far better choices for the same or less money than a 700---that you don't have to tweak either-----for me to ever consider a model 700 again.


Never say never---but I'll never buy another Remington bolt action rifle---and give a strong warning for others not to either. That goes for Winchester too.

Savage--Tikka---Ruger(yes--Ruger)---Browning---Sako---etc............simply beat the pants off Remington in any measure of quality and value--------and this is given I despise Savage(nasty cheap action)---but give credit where credit is due---if it works---it works.

[De41mag]

Lawdog;

Man, I feel for ya. That's some BAD LUCK.
I don't even give their rifles a glance anymore. I've got one rifle from 1989, a Rem. Mod. 7FS in 7mm-08. That's it as far as their rifles go.
I did buy back in January a Rem. Mod. 1100 in 20ga, Sam Walton Limited Edition. So far, it's shoot very well and very dependable. Wally World had them marked down to $499.00 from $729.00.
Hope you have better luck with other brands of rifles.

Dennis  

[Jimi]

Come on Lawdog... you have to admit that going from 11 months to 9 months is a significant improvement... almost 20%!

Of all the choices available to me, Remington is at the very bottom... for all the reasons Lawdog listed... though I would add another: They are very temperamental in dirty conditions. A bit of dust will bugger the action. I have handled a couple of newer ones and was shocked by the poor quality control. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. And I'm speaking mostly of the M700. I did used to have a Wingmaster that was half decent... but not decent enough to keep.

[Atomic Chicken]

Greetings!

I've owned two Remington 700 rifles, both purchased in the mid-90's.  The first was a .300 Win. Mag. Sendero, and the 2nd was a .308 Win. VS.  I sold the .300 Win. Mag. about 3 months after buying it, it shot OK (1.5"-2" groups typical) but wasn't my kind of gun... couldn't really see a need for it after giving it a try for a few months, just never caught the "magnum fever" that so many Americans are infected with.

The .308, on the otherhand, was a REAL tack driver... averaging 1/2"-3/4" groups depending on the handload... never shot over 1" groups even with factory ammunition.  However, that rifle was a real PUNISHER... the hardest kicking most painful rifle I've EVER shot... easily worse than the .300 Win. Mag. I sold.  I would literally come back from the range with blackish purple bruises on my shoulder, and stubbornly kept at it thinking I would "get used to it" or eventually adapt to the heavy recoil.  I absolutely LOVED the accuracy of the rifle, which is why I was willing to put up with the abuse... but finally said "enough".  I sold that rifle a few days ago, after several years of love/hate relationship... It sure feels good to be free of it at this point.

As for general build quality, I thought both rifles were quite good... but not great.  I always hated the extractor and thought it was one of the worst designed firearms pieces I'd ever seen, although I admit I never had it fail on me... almost everything else about the rifles seemed average, even the checkered bolt polishing seemed sort of gimmicky to me... the stocks were definitely utilitarian and plain, and the sling studs always seemed to be a bit on the weak side (although again, neither rifle ever had a sling stud fail on me).

Would I buy another Remington 700?  Probably not... I just never really loved either rifle... the .308 was probably one of the most accurate rifles I've ever seen, but MAN did I pay for it in bruises and pain.  I've shot many .308 rifles that had mild recoil, including an old Spanish Mauser Guardia model that had an iron strap for the shoulder pad and it was NOTHING compared to the Remington in terms of pain.  Would I recommend Remington 700 actions to someone else?  With reservations... I would say buy a heavy barrel model, but be prepared for some heavy recoil... personally it's not the rifle for me.

I currently own a Remington Model 870 Marine Magnum shotgun, and I can say NOTHING bad about it.... I will never sell it, it's magnificent.  Remington seems to make some of the best shotguns in the world, but their bolt actions rifles seem to be a mixed bag.

Just my .02... hope it's been helpful.

Best wishes,
Bawko

[victorcharlie]

For the most part, customer service in the United States continues to decline.  I personally don't see this improving.  It's delightful when a problem gets resolved without a big hassel.  Maybe we should focus on what products are good, our good experiences with customer service, and send our business to those companies........the internet is a great way to do this........If we don't hit them in the pocket book, corporate america won't change.  Profit and loss is all they understand.

[Lead Poison]

The biggest problem with Remingtons is their EXTREMELY dangerous safety design. I know not everyone of them (you) have had a problem, but the fact remains that many have. I've spoken to several honest people who have had their rifles discharge while moving the safety to the fire position. None of them touched their triggers from the factory! :eek:

Another weak point already mentioned is the spring steel extractor. I've personally had to replace two of these over the years.

The finish on the new Remington rifles is simply awful. I looked at the SPS at Bass Pro last week, what a joke. A concrete mason can put a smoother finish on than Remington! To top it off, the crown was dinged up. The Remington Factory Rep. who was in the store at the time was embarassed when I pointed it out. :oops:

The best Remington I ever owned was al LSS stainless/laminated in 7mm Rem. Mag. It had a great finish on the stock and action, as did a Mountain Rifle LSS in 7mm-08. Lately though big green is going down-fast.

[pffft]

The worst Remington I ever purchased was a Model 6 that put a neat little group 8 feet to the right of aim at 50 Yards.
Needless to say, Remington sent it back to me saying there was nothing wrong with it, and put no less than 12 inspection stamps on the barrel just to prove somebody looked at it. Obviously, nobody thought to tell them to fix the darn thing.
Bad deal all the way around.
My wife, who unwittingly discovered where the bullets were hitting will probably never figure out why I was using our nice wood fence as a target.
And I wouldn't dare let that thing out of my possession, nor ever try to use it again, but it does serve as a good reminder not to buy on impulse.

Anyway, that still didn't persuade me to not consider Remingtons when looking for a new gun. It just so happens that more often than not, Remington has the configuration I'm looking for. To buy something that doesn't meet your requirements pretty much determines that you will be looking to dump it eventually.

Not too long ago, Remingtons were also one of the very few brands that provided both short action rifles and long action rifles for standard chamberings. The other companies were so near going broke they couldn't afford the extra expense, so used magazine blocks for the shorter cartridges in their standard size actions.
Glad they all stayed in business though, because now there is the biggest selection of rifles available I have ever seen.
Surely there has to be one that is just right!
So you might consider checking out a few others while conditions are so very good.
If it's not perfect, then don't buy anything.

[Zeke Menuar]

I have a 1997 M700 ADL Tupperware Special.  I like it.....but.  It had to get a burr in the chamber fixed.  The Tupperware stock was a joke until free floating.  All in all it was not ready to go out of the box.  I really like the Tupperware Special, but I wouldn't buy another new Remington.  Maybe an older Remington on a case by case basis.

ZM

[redial]

Being lefthanded and a target shooter, I've been buying Rem 700's for many years. Many 760's, 870's and 1100's over time too.

Not any more.

I can echo the concerns listed above and add a few sneers I've heard from 'smiths trying to build match rifles on new receivers. They're usually out of spec! I immediately yank Rem barrels now where I used to give them a chance before. Just junk.

For hunting rifles, since there are CZ's everywhere and lefty Savages in a hundred flavors, I have no more need for Remington. If they return to being the company that made my old 512X, I'll give them another look.

Redial

[Graybeard]

I've owned hundreds of Remington long guns, definitely over 200 and perhaps now close to 300 of them. I'm still buying them both old and new and they are still as good as it gets to my way of thinking. The very newest ones out are still super accurate and require no real tinkering other than turning one screw to lighten trigger pull. It's a five minute job anyone with a set of screwdrivers can do. I seldom even consider another brand when looking for a new rifle unless Remington just doesn't make it.

You guys with so many problem Remingtons sure must have bad luck cuz I've owned a ton of them and hardly ever had a problem and when I did it was taken care of at no expense to me every single time. EVEN on guns bought used.

[jro45]

I think Remington Rifles are the Best most of my rifles are Remington. I've never had any major problems with them. And you talk about being accurate. Some of them will use the same bullet hole at 200 yds.

[JPSaxMan]

I hear a lot about the bad customer service,

I called Remington on many occassions even once asking if they could put the new J-lock saftey on my older 870 Wingmaster. Every single time I called, I got a nice, friendly and courteous answer to my question. Their online support staff is just as good IMO. So maybe those who complain about their customer service maybe aren't as friendly to them as they wish?

I've got six hunting guns; one deer rifle (700 ADL syn), one single-shot 12 gauge (NEF), one muzzleloader (Traditions Hawken), one bolt action shotgun (Moose...I mean Mossberg 16 gauge), one .22 bolt (Savage Mark II) and finally one pump gun (Remington 870 Wingmaster 12 gauge). The Mossberg was a gift to me from my grandfather. The Traditions is a two season/year gun, which is used quite frequently during the seasons. The Mark II was a nice looking, yet cheap gun that has not been that accurate for me. And finally the NEF was just some steal that I got...good to carry around for a turkey gun.

The 870 I got used at a local gunshop (really needed a pump gun, and this one was in about a 90% condition state, so voila)...it has taken a many squirrel, and busted a many clay bird. I hope it will take a few duck in my first year of waterfowling (I've waited a looong time to do this, I know) and my first turkey (have yet to get one :cry:). The 700 I bought for the name and for the price. It has taken several deer and I don't intend on giving it up. It has even been swimming (fell into a nice cold creek while hunting during the winter...ya!). While the scope fogged up and was more or less deemed useless, we dried out the Remington and it looked as good as it did before it went in the drink. Very minimal rusting (only a spot or two under the scope mount) after that event.

If I had to get another gun (or had the money to...:cry:) would I look at Remington first? You bet. I would get the 504 for a good bolt .22 but the price for one of them is more than some of their deer rifles. So at the moment, no $$$ for a new Remington.

I haven't heard anyone say anything about Remington's ammunition or any other product. I have always used Remington ammo in my guns (even Remington lead balls in the Traditions) and the only duds I find are in their Game Loads (especially in the 16 gauge...:?) and in their Thunderwazits .22 load. Other than that, their ammo has functioned flawless for me. Even ask the 8-point on my wall, he succumbed to a .243 Core-Lokt at 30 yards.

Let's keep the debate goin!

[beemanbeme]

Ho hum, another thread turned into a Rem bashing fest.  By the same old bunch.  The same old dire allegations which have been refuted by creditable sources so many times.  

[JPSaxMan]

Isn't that the point of a debate beeman?    

[Jimi]

I don't quite understand this debate. Let's say 100 people own Ford Pintos and 5 of them experience SERIOUS problems with them... be it quality control issues, poor customer service, or maybe the occasional firebomb... but the other 95 people seem to be okay with their Pintos. If I was one of those 95 people, unless I totally discount the experience of those other people I would have to have serious reservations about my Pinto.

Now we turn to the Remington M700... if 1 person in 100 tells me about a safety issue with their rifle, I would feel VERY concerned about mine. I would not bury my head in the sand and say "well I've never had a problem... must have been your tough luck" or something like that.

I have seen the safety fail in the field with a hunter that was always very safety conscious... and thank goodness he practiced safe firearm handling by always keeping the barrel pointed away from humans... and I have gotten other M700s to fail (while empty). Pursuant to this debate, and just for kicks I went into the local sporting goods store last evening. They had several M700s on the rack. I tried 8 of them and got 2 to fail. So I guess the reasoning is that so long as you were lucky enough to have bought one of the six that didn't fail, you are golden and the M700 is fantastic.

And I'm going to bring up something (yet again) that I've noted while hunting in Africa... PH's don't use Remingtons... and the 2 PH's that I usually hunt with don't even like their clients to use them. I find that very telling.

[JPSaxMan]

Well my question to that is while you were at your gun store, why didn't you try other actions like the ones on Ruger, Savage, etc? Just to see like you did with M700?

I have never been around anyone with a failed M700 safety nor have I had it happen to me. I will say that when I first got it though, I had just heard what was going on with the 710's and I was extremely leery about it for a couple of sessions, but it has never happened to me. I did use a gun that had the safety recall on it and it was fixed (600 Mowhawk) and the gun never went off on me.

So I guess it's the same old story, you'll have those who know their guns well enough (unless something happens then the safety fails or something) and those who have had piss poor luck with firearms. I mean, it makes it sound like the only safety's that fail are ones on Remington guns. Which is entirely not so :?

[fish280]

i just got off layaway a new/used j-lock syn 700 adl in .270 win. i had educated myself on the trigger/safety issues. i did not put it on layaway until i manipulated it in an effort to force it to "fire" unsafely. could not do it, so i bought it.
i have owned a pre-j-lock adl in same configuration. could not make it fire except when i wanted it to. it proved to be HIGHLY accurate after bedding the action and shaving the interior forearm to float the barrel. had to sell it to raise cash. a friend bought it. he won't let go of it.
i have shaved the forearm on this latest one, and lowered the trigger pull to 3.5 pounds or so. i'll see how it shoots to determine whether i need to skim bed it. (even with the lower trigger weight, the safety procedure works perfectly.)
that's my only experience with 700s. this newset one appears to be a tuesday/wednesday/thursday gun. finish is perfect. fit is almost perfect (had to shave the left side of that wiggly syn forearm a little than the right). scope mounting holes are aligned. i'm gonna bet it's a shooter, too. but hey, for $275, with a pretty good bushnell scope aboard, and intended really as a donor, how could i go wrong?
by the way, i was a long-time savage fan. the last 110 i had would fire upon release of the safety if trigger weight was taken under 3 pounds.

[Lawdog]

JPSaxMan,

Lawdog, I'd still love to know (you never told us last time) if you actually had these experiences (the six reasons).

Lets take them in order.
1.] hideous safety - I was looking at a Model 7 for one of my Grandkids and after cocking the rifle it took all I could do to disengage it.

2.] flimsy extractors - I have personally seen a few break at our gun club while the owner was on the range shooting.  Both of our local gunsmiths have said that as long as Remington has their extractor and feeding problems, Ruger's has it's lawyer triggers and Winchester it's bedding problems they would alwaysbe in business.  

3.] brazed on bolt handle - had one come off in my hand at the store.  I wish I had a picture of the salesman face when that happened.

4.] declining quality control - Already covered.

5.] non existent customer service - Again already covered.

6.] a trigger group made from stamped metal - Take one apart and that speaks for itself.
 
Jimi,

Come on Lawdog... you have to admit that going from 11 months to 9 months is a significant improvement... almost 20%!

 :-D  :-D   That would be an improvment except that I went to the attorney sooner.

JPSaxMan,

I have never been around anyone with a failed M700 safety nor have I had it happen to me.

I have.  The now retired under sheriff bought himself a new .300 Win. Mag. M700 BDL in 1994 and I was visiting the station when he came back from the store with it under his arm.  He took it out and after working the bolt he disengaged the safety and the firing pin slammed home on an empty chamber.  He hadn't even touched the trigger before this happened.  We passed the rifle around to a number of us that were present and it would happen about 35% of the time.  Needless to say the rifle went right back to the store where the under-sheriff exchanged it in on a .300 Weatherby Accumark.  Like I said no NEW Remington's for me until Remington changes.  Lawdog
 :toast:

[dukkillr]

I too had it happen... I still own the gun, and have no reason to lie... It was a new .300 win mag... If you don't believe it really happens I'll pass along the phone number of at least 2 people who were there and the smith who fixed it.

Those who think this problem doesn't exist are kidding themselves.  They've usually loved Remmington for 400 years and refuse to believe there could be a mistake made.

[JPSaxMan]

Dukkilr,

Well, considering Remington isn't even 200 years old yet it would be hard to love it for 400 years . I'm not refusing to accept it, but I just find it extremely hard to believe...just as you would anything you haven't seen yourself.  

[Rogue Ram]

I'll chime in. My experience is similar to Omahas.  I've had 2 870s through the years, and have carried agency issued 870s for 20 years. Other than the loading gate issue (common), no problems. NOTE: all of these are older guns; personal ones from like the 70s.

I've had 4 700s...all post 1994.  A Stainless BDL .300 Weatherby, Varmint Synthetic .223, .270 Mtn Rifle dbm,  and a blued synthetic .243.  The .300 and the .243 were nothing but junk. The .300 was rebuilt twice, completely, I finally gave up as nothing including blueprinting and new barrels (pac nor, lilja, etc) and diff scopes wouldn't make it right....the stupidly made detachable magazine system would never work right either. Don't ask me, maybe it was jinxed.

The .243 grouped like an 870, tweaking didn't help.  

The .223 came factory with a cheap POS stock from  HS Precision that kept breaking. Remington replaced it with a McMillan at minor cost to me, but I sent the gun back 4 TIMES because the bedding wasn't right and they kept screwing the magazine up so the shells wouldn't chamber. Its been professionally rebuilt and works like a nice bench rest gun. I have 2 acquaintances who had HS Precision stocks break also...these were all the first year they brought these out as I recall. Remington would not reimburse me shipping and always wanted to argue.

The .270s skinny mtn barrel made the shots string. Blueprinting and bedding have made this a sub moa after 1 or 2 fouling shots with the correct load. Its det magazine can screw up also, but not like the .300 I had.

So, for the 700s, I'm batting .500.  Of my friends that have them (most newer), not a single complaint. Go figure!

I LOVED my Nylon 66!!!!  Those plastic toy army guys were toast once I scoped it...at ranges I won't post here because no one would believe me. If it hadn't developed a jam issue (nowadays I could fix it) I'd still have it.

Just like everything else, you pays your money you takes your chances.  I'm pretty sold on CZ these days but their customer service is lacking as well from what I hear

 

RR

[beemanbeme]

Dukiller, did you buy the gun new?  What exactly was wrong with the safety and what did the smith do to fix it???

[SuperstitionCoues]

Here's my take on Remingtons:

I own one pre 1960's  870 Wingmaster - it will never be sold.  I trust it enough to give to my mother as a defensive weapon at her house.

If you want an ultra-reliable side-eject shotgun, buy a Remington.  If you want good ammunition, by Remington.  

If you want a rifle, by anything else.  I have had good luck with Winchesters, Rugers and Marlins.  My experience and opinion of Remingtons from trying or examining freinds weapons over the years has been poor, and nothing that Remington comes up with or offers seems to improve on it.  Not one specific issue, but a host of things that lowers my opinion.   I won't say I'll never buy one, but it is doubtful that one will be added to my collection soon.

[Squeeze]

What I don't get is how easy Remington fans except the idea that
it is great to have to bed an action, shave a barrel channel, and
get a trigger job, or buy an after market trigger, to get an accurate
rifle.  Me, I just go down to the local gun store, and walk right past
the Remingtons, the Winchesters, and buy a TIkka.  No problems,
no after market work, and so far, they all have put teeny groups
on paper, out of the box, after bolting on a scope.  And I can adjust
the trigger down to "Scary", and it still is safe.  If I want an after
market project, I buy a Savage. I can put on new barrels, change bolt
faces, change stocks, etc., but I don't have to do anything to get
an accurate rifle.  They also come out of the box that way.

Before y'all discount me as another Remington basher, I bought
my first Remington 1100 shotgun in 1966, and I still have it.
I have 3 other Remington shotguns, and one M760, in .30-60 Sprg.  
I doubt if I will buy any of the stuff they put out today.  My youngest
son said he wanted to be a Marine Sniper, and wanted a rifle to start
learning how to shoot bolt action rifles well.  So we went down to a
gunshop, that was closing up, and they had a Remington M700 ADL,
in .270 Win, for $310 NIB, on the rack.  This fit into his college going
budget, so we got it.  Dear ol'Dad paid for the after market work to
get it shooting well.  That great deal at $310 wasn't that great.
He could have had a Tikka, if we would have pooled our
funds, and still had some cash left over for better glass.  I would
love to be a loyal Remington customer, and I once was.  
When Remington returns to being a, loyal to their customers,
company with safe, quality products, at a competative price, I
will again consider buying Remintgon firearms...Until then,
for bolt action rifles, it is Tikka, and Savage, and for semi-auto hunting
rifles, and shotguns, it is Browning.

Squeeze