Author Topic: Great Remington Debate  (Read 4058 times)

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Offline dukkillr

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Great Remington Debate
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2005, 06:11:43 AM »
Quote
Dukiller, did you buy the gun new? What exactly was wrong with the safety and what did the smith do to fix it???


It was new.  I bought it before an elk hunt in 1999.  I'd shot maybe two boxes through it when it started happening.  The first thing i noticed is that sometimes the hammer wouldn't stay back after racking the bolt.  Then I discovered that if the safety was on it would hold the hammer back until you disengaged it.  It wasn't an every time thing, but maybe 50% of the time.  Needless to say this was extremely dangerous.

I don't know what the smith did.  Quite honestly I'm not a rifle person.  I expect them to go off when I pull the trigger and I expect them to hit where I'm aiming.  Past that I don't know alot about them.  Shotguns and archery are more my thing.  I do know that he said he had seen this before, and that he knew what to do.  I've since taken caribou, elk, and deer with that rifle.  It's worked great since, even under tough circumstances.

I'm not trying to bad mouth anyone's favorite gun company.  I still own the 700 and an 870.  My only point is that those who believe this trigger problem isn't real are kidding themselves.  They'd rather bury their head in the sand than admit this problem exists.  Quite honestly I don't think it matters how many people they hear tell their story.

Offline Jimi

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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2005, 06:26:00 AM »
JPSaxMan... No, I didn't do the test on any other manufacturer.  Are you suggesting that there is a similar problem with them?
WWJD?(What Would Jimi Do?)

Offline Rummer

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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2005, 07:12:54 AM »
My own experience with M700's has been shaky.  The first one I ever had was a Kit Gun in .30-06, purchased new in 1989.  The throat was really long and the chamber a little big around the back end.  The cases always had to be full length resized and bullets had to be seated out a little far.  I recently had this rebarreled to .35 whelen.

In 1998 I bought an ADL Synthetic in .308.  This rifle also had a long throat.  No handload or factory load I tried in it would group better than 1.25" at 100 yards.  The fit and finish was rough and the action felt rough compared to every other bolt gun I had ever handled.  I got flattened primers and ejector marks with factory loads.  After firing the bolt face looked as though it had been colored with a brass crayon.

About the same time a friend bought an ADL Synthetic in .270.  Same rough finish but this one could shoot.  All factory loads fired in this rifle grouped 1" or less.  This covinced me that buying Remington rifles at the budget end was a crapshoot.

I traded that .308 for a 2004 classic in 8x57.  This is the best out-of-box remington I've owned.  The main spring had to be replaced.  Usually the main spring sits in tight concentric circles around the firing pin.  This looks like a corkscrew.  The ejector leaves marks on the cases upon closing the action.  The ejector occassionally sticks and fails to eject the round.  The rifle has strung every group fired thru it horizontally (allowing 3-5 min between shots for cooling), but this may be a problem with the optics.  The best the rifle has ever done was to print 10 shots into TWO sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards.  

If I can figure out what is causing the horizontal stringing and turn those two groups into one group I will be happy with the rifle.

I am looking to get a .30-06 or .308 (I haven't decided which yet) back into my battery.  It certainly won't be a remington.

Rummer

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2005, 10:11:58 AM »
Quote from: beemanbeme
Ho hum, another thread turned into a Rem bashing fest.  By the same old bunch.  The same old dire allegations which have been refuted by creditable sources so many times.   :D


You couldn't be more wrong.  There ar a number of lawsuits against Remington as we speak and a number of them that have been settled out of court where Remington made darn sure that the files were sealed.   :?:

Jimi,

Firearms, as with autos, if one causes even one death due to a design flaw then it's one death to many wouldn't you agree?  The Ford Pinto was a fire bomb waiting to explode.  Same as the saddle tanks on Chevy pickups.  According to NHTSA databases, 1,660 people were killed in fire-related crashes in Chevy C/K pickups between 1973 and 1997, an average of 67 a year, due directly to saddle tanks being improperly placed(between the body and frame).  General Motors knew about the possible problem with the saddle tanks but chose to ignore it in favor of paying a number of lawsuits due to it being cheaper than recalling all those vehicles and fix them.  Ford was just as bad with the Pinto.  Ford engineers discovered in pre-production crash tests that rear-end collisions would rupture the Pinto's fuel system extremely easily.  Because assembly-line machinery was already tooled when engineers found this defect, top Ford officials decided to manufacture the car anyway—exploding gas tank and all—even though Ford owned the patent on a much safer gas tank.  Remington knows about their problems and is choosing to ignore them.  Maybe they too believe that it is cheaper to pay lawsuits instead of fixing the problem.  It’s a real shame too because until the mid 1980’s Remington was the premier firearms company and a bigger booster of Remington products you couldn’t find than me.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Grubbs

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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2005, 10:24:00 AM »
Squeeze.........you hit the nail on the head........my last 3 rifles have been Tikkas......one whitetail and two t-3's.  I also have a Rem Model 7 youth that my daughter shoots (.223) and my personal favorite shotgun is a Rem 11-87 which I like very much.  As far as rifles go......no comparison.  At our deer lease I hunt with 3 other guys.  Six years ago they all showed up with their Rem 700's.  After looking over my Tikka whitetail, and borrowing it from me to shoot 5 bucks, 2 of them now have Tikka Whitetails just like mine.

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2005, 11:59:55 AM »
Quote from: Jimi
JPSaxMan... No, I didn't do the test on any other manufacturer.  Are you suggesting that there is a similar problem with them?


Jimi,

If you go and test drive a car, you test several...not just one. Your test would have been more sincere to me if you could have/would have tried maybe a Tikka or a Winchester or Savage along with the Remington...in other words a NON biased test :?
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Jimi

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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2005, 02:20:51 PM »
That's a nice logical argument JP, if we're debating how Remington's compare to other manufacturers... but that is not the basis of this particular thread. If we're arguing M700 vs. M70 then sure, test them both. Otherwise, it would seem you are suggesting that perhaps there is some acceptable level of safety failure and that maybe Remington isn't "significantly" worse than any other rifle. I hope that you are not attempting that argument because it would only further the audacity of your attempt to deflect the very basic fact that Remington safeties are prone to failure. I give my regrets to all the Remington owners who don't want to believe this... but don't kill the messenger. It appears there are many responsible Remington owners on this board who have had their rifles modified to alleviate the issue, and hat's off to them. Seriously. But then there is another contingent that wants to bury their heads in the sand and it is your poor attempt at deflection that make me suspect you may fall into the latter category. I hope it isn't so because you otherwise seem like a very sensible person whose posts I have enjoyed.

But that said, I have fired hundreds of rifles and while I have seen safeties fail, usually due to the rifle being in poor condition, I have been able to repeat it with M700s in new condition, so I looked into that particular issue a little further. For what it is worth, over the years I have indeed tested the safeties of M70s because everyone was always going on about how great its safeties are... and sure enough, they are great. Using your logic it would take a thorough sampling of numerous other manufacturers to see that "hey, maybe all rifles have great safeties."

But it just ain't so. Sorry... I'm a safety nut when it comes to firearms.
WWJD?(What Would Jimi Do?)

Offline bchannell

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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2005, 10:26:01 AM »
All I can say is, that I USED to be a huge Remington fan. I still like the looks, and ideas behind many of the 700 variations, BUT, if you've had a ton of them and not had problems with them, then it must be nice in your world. The barrel quality alone has dropped considerably in the last several years. Rough onry critters to get to shoot accurately, and hard to clean. I'm not saying they're junk, they're no where near what they used to be. IMHO, they are the last choice when looking for a new bolt rifle. I've had several older ones that shoot super, but the new ones me, my two hunting pals and others in our circle of hunting friends have had has been about 50/50. I'll admit some of the issues are cosmetic, but they were extremely poorly fitted, the ones I saw. Others shot horrible, functioned roughly, and some had issues with mis aligned scope mount holes, rust problems, etc. the list goes on. I'm sure other makers have some of the same problems, but not in the numbers we've seen in Remmys. Guess we're just unlucky. We now stick mostly with Savages and Rugers, a few Tikkas and some Winchesters. There's also the odd CZ at our camp, and they seem to be a great rifle.
If you like 'em and haven't had any problems with them, then you should, by all means, keep buying them. But there must be a lot of people around here that feel as we do, because the local shops have rack after rack of Rem Mountain rifles, BDL's, and Senderos that they've had for a while, and they just don't sell too well. The M70's, Rugers, Tikkas, CZ's, Brownings, and Savages move off the shelves very well, and it's kind of obvious what is selling and not comming back as trade-ins.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love nothing better than Remington to be on top of quality like they were in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. I'd go back to being a huge fan in a heart beat, but it ain't happenin' yet.

Offline Bart Solo

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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2005, 02:40:47 AM »
This isn't a debate as much as a long string of posts dumping on Remington.  There are a few damning with faint praise, but mostly the thread is just one long dump.

Has anyone had a good experience with a Remington bolt action rifle purchased in the last decade?

For me, I haven't purchased a Remington in the last decade so I don't have anything to say, except the old timers down at the range say Remington used to be outstanding but now they suck. I will just read along.

Offline fish280

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« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2005, 05:39:34 AM »
i've bought two, both syn adls in .270 win.

the first one was pre-j-lock by a year or two, supposedly in the first of the worst of the manufacturing junk period. it wouldn't group worth a flip until i opened the barrel channel and scraped off those two little pressure points at the tip of the forearm. i skim bedded it also, but don't know if that contributed to it suddenly becoming a sub-moa shooter with rem and win ammo. by the way, the trigger had been professionally lightened to about 3.5 pounds, and it could not be pushed to fail.

hey, i expected to do a little work on a bottom-of-the-line product. i knew going in the tupperware stock was flimsy at the front. i sold it to a friend when i was hard up for church summer camp cash. he WILL NOT let go of it.

i now have a another one, this one with the ugly little j-lock, that i bought as a donor for a future project. until the cash is in hand to finish the project, i'm gonna hunt with it.  fit and finish are excellent. i've reduced the trigger pull to 3.5 pounds and opened the forend. i will not skim bed it unless i deem it necessary after some range work (i hope this weekend). by the way, i CANNOT make it overrride the safety, doing the usual  things necessary to defeat the mechanism. i highly suspect this one also will be a very fine shooter

i WILL keep the stock trigger mechanism clean, but i do intend to replace it with a rifle basix or timney or jewell at some point because i like SIMPLE things. the 700 is WAY simple except for the trigger, and will be more simple with the swap.
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Offline beemanbeme

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« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2005, 06:25:36 AM »
Ah yes, the good old days.  When cars were faster and so were the women.  Food tasted better, and you could buy a loaf of bread for a nickle.  And, of course, you could buy a whatever, wipe a little grease off of it and shoot sub MOA groups from the hip.  However, the truth is, this was also when the gun writers would "wring out" a new offering and if it put 5 shots within 2 inches, it was deemed a tack driving hunting machine.  

In the last decade, I have bought at least 10 Remington rifles.  All new.  EVERYONE has been an outstanding example of value returned for value given.  The safeties have all worked although in the world I live in, the riflemen are well trained enough that a safety is kinda redundant.  And the lawyerized triggers have worked very well after being attended to by me or a COMPETENT gun smith.  And, don't let anyone kid you, a Remington barrel will shoot.  All in all, I have been very pleased with the Remingtons I have bought.  

I am not gonna make any comparison with any other brand of rifle.  Mainly because the Remington rifles I have bought have pleased me.  And so, I don't believe in fixing what ain't broke.

I bought a XR-100 this spring.  After cleaning the barrel, with no break-in and using ammo that was not tuned to the rifle, the first 5 groups thru the rifle were .609, .482, .715, .560, .838 for an agg of .643.  To tell the truth, that's about as good as I can shoot.  A better rifleman surely could have  done better.

I own a .300 Savage in the Classic model.  I finally got it out the other day and using a generic load from the books, I was shooting sub 1.25" groups at 100 yards using a vintage 2.5X Weaver Post and Crosshair scope.  I just might be able to scratch down a deer with it, don't you think?  Oh, by the way, the safety worked and the trigger was crisp.  

And this story can be repeated back thru 40 years.  Facts, not heresay, nor rumors, nor mean little stories by folks that bubba-ized their rifles and when they screwed up, wouldn't admit it and so come in here to trash out Remington.  

Of course, the naysayers will say I've been lucky.  If so, its been a helluva run of luck.  

Do some clunkers get past QC?  I'm sure they do.  Just like you see brand new Cadillacs sitting beside the road and brand new Sakos reduced to smoking shards of steel.  

Do I recommend that anyone buy a Remington?  Nope.  Buy what you want to.  Handle the competitive models from the different makers and see which one feels the best for you.  And buy that one even if its so butt-ugly you hide it in the closet when buddies come by.  You can always argue about how "out of the  box" accurate it is.  My point is not to boost Remingtons but rather specific input was asked for, not generic BS.  And that's what I posted.   :grin:

Offline fish280

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« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2005, 08:49:51 AM »
keep buzzin', bee. :lol:
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Offline sprest22

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« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2005, 10:02:14 AM »
Just wanted to let everyone know I didn't start this thread,I replied to it when it was over in the Remington forum,and I just came over here and saw it had been moved and my name got tacked to it as the author.

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2005, 11:36:24 AM »
Sprest,

Whatsa matta, afraid you gonna get heat for opening up this huge can of worms?  :)  :-D  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Jimi

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« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2005, 12:45:15 PM »
I cannot believe you Sprest. How could you start such an audacious thread?

That's okay... every time I think I've exhausted myself on this topic, something happens that fires me up again.
WWJD?(What Would Jimi Do?)

Offline sprest22

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« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2005, 03:00:28 PM »
All right,I confess,it's all my fault :lol:

Offline Ifishsum

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« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2005, 07:15:17 AM »
I bought a 710 about 3 years ago,  brand new for $299.00.  I managed several 1.5" groups @200 with it with no mods except a trigger adjustment, and bagged an elk with it that year.   It's probably the homeliest rifle in the safe, but I can honestly say I got more than I expected to get for $299.

Offline redial

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« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2005, 03:57:23 AM »
I have one Rem 700 purchased within the last decade (1996, so I guess it just makes it under the wire..) that's a wonderful rifle. It's a standard 700 BDL in 30-06, lefty.  Shoots anything I feed it well, sometimes VERY well.

Two years later in 98 came the big HOWEVER part of this story. Two new lefty VS's were utter crap. Crap barrels, crap finish, crap fitting, crap functioning. Did I mention crap?  :wink:

I still have the '06 and another of the same era that are of the old-school standards. The rest have gone down the road.

Please bring back our old Remington!

Redial

Offline jmckinley

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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2005, 10:35:24 PM »
Having read and feeling the "Love" for Remingtons I'm glad I've only owned five,1 was a 788 in 243Win I used for many seasons while in the service. It wore a Weaver K4 and just plain drove tacks. I've owned. I've owned their pump rifles in 06 and 270. I hate their shotguns. Tried an 11-87 was a great single shot and the 870 express that was a rusting machine and as smooth as sandpaper. I have a 721 in 270 on layaway that has had extensive custom work done to it. It has a Timney trigger, Sako extractor ect. It will go into a Boyd's Ross thumbhole Classic stock be bedded and I should have a very fine rifle. I have no intention on purchasing another. The new 700's seem cheap and I have heard of to many problems to waste my money on. I'll stick to my Mauser's thank you very much.                    Jess :D
Jess

Offline cma g21

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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2005, 03:40:53 AM »
I currently own two Remington rifles. Only one was produced in the last decade, a Model 7600. The other is a 600 Mohawk.

The 600 is my favorite rifle, easy to carry and deadly accurate.

The 7600 is reliable and as accurate as I could ask of a pump action rifle (1.5" three shot groups at 100 yards).

While I've of heard enough problems with the 700 to make me leery of buying a new one, I don't think this is the result of any problems unique to Remington.

Far too many companies are now run by bean counters whose idea of long term planning rarely extends beyond the end of the fiscal year. The goal of maximizing short term profits, even at the expense of long term destruction of the company, is all too common.

When a company with a reputation for quality suddenly begins producing a series of lower quality products, you rarely have to look beyond the new management for an explanation.

Eventually, the lower quality will affect the bottom line. The bean counters will more on (to drain the profits from another company). At that point, either new management will attempt to restore the company’s reputation, the company will refocus to become a producer of bargain basement products, or it will cease to exist.

I only hope Remington does the first.

Offline HL

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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2005, 07:37:30 AM »
I just purchased a 700 VLS in 6mm a couple months ago. The only thing I did not like was the trigger pull. I took it to a gunsmith and had it reduced as low as he would take it. Factory settin registered on the guage at 6.75 pounds.

I had it taken to 3lbs. Big difference. Using the same loads I had been testing earlier that grouped 1-1/2 inches, they now group under 1/2 inch for 6 shots. I was amazed to say the least, as to the affects of the heavier trigger pull.

Offline Rem725

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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2005, 06:44:09 PM »
All this bad mouthing Remingtons.  Sheesh.

Just get a 50 year old 721 or 722 and have one of the finest rifles ever.  If you want to jazz it up, restock it and maybe even rebarrel it.  Have an expert strip and clean the trigger, give it a good polish and adjustment.

I rebarreled a 721 3006 with a match grade 280 and fit a Classic stock to it.  Best rifle I ever had.  

If your shooting needs require a magnum rifle, then get a controled feeder, like a pre 64 M70.  

They just don't make them like they used to.

I add that I have had Remington 721, 722, and 725 rifles for 45 years in varying numbers.  Used to collect 725's, but got married.  You know how that goes.   Probably had 50 of the three Remington models  through the years.  Kick myself for selling most of them off.  

NRA Life, Dist Pistol

Offline Qaz

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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2005, 02:11:11 AM »
I have read this thread all the way through and am now sick to my stomach that I made such a huge mistake when I bought my 700CDL this year. It was shooting 2" groups during "break-in" off the hood of my truck. Took it home and took the trigger down to 2 3/4lbs and now it shoots 1" or less, what a piece of crap. My Savage 17HMR shoots the paper out of what is left between the bullet holes!
 I am only buying SAVAGES from now on!!! :)  :)  :)

Offline Captain_Obvious

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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2005, 03:13:22 PM »
I own five Remington rifles and two Remington shotguns, and all have served me well.

I don't understand why someone would feel their rifle is a piece of crap because their rifle shoots '' 1 inch or less.'' Groups smaller than 1'' are just dandy to brag about online, but in a hunting rifle, sub-MOA accuracy is useless. Wake up and start facing reality.

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2005, 04:21:44 PM »
Quote from: Captain_Obvious
I own five Remington rifles and two Remington shotguns, and all have served me well.

I don't understand why someone would feel their rifle is a piece of crap because their rifle shoots '' 1 inch or less.'' Groups smaller than 1'' are just dandy to brag about online, but in a hunting rifle, sub-MOA accuracy is useless. Wake up and start facing reality.


I agree and I use this philosophy liberally with all sorts of accuracy accounts.  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2005, 06:41:05 PM »
Quote from: JPSaxMan
...
I have never been around anyone with a failed M700 safety nor have I had it happen to me.


I've never won the lottery, either.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Bart Solo

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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2005, 07:43:18 PM »
Quote from: Qaz
I have read this thread all the way through and am now sick to my stomach that I made such a huge mistake when I bought my 700CDL this year. It was shooting 2" groups during "break-in" off the hood of my truck. Took it home and took the trigger down to 2 3/4lbs and now it shoots 1" or less, what a piece of crap. My Savage 17HMR shoots the paper out of what is left between the bullet holes!
 I am only buying SAVAGES from now on!!! :)  :)  :)


Let me know if you want to sell your 700 CDL.  :)

Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2005, 02:32:14 AM »
Quote from: Coyote Hunter
Quote from: JPSaxMan
...
I have never been around anyone with a failed M700 safety nor have I had it happen to me.


I've never won the lottery, either.


So I guess your point is, while you play the lottery and haven't won the jackpot (while people still use M700's and don't have the trigger thing happen to them), it still happens?
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline texagun

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« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2005, 02:41:53 AM »
Quote from: Lawdog
I can give you SIX good reasons why NOT to buy NEW Remington rifles,

1.]  hideous safety

2.]  flimsy extractors

3.]  brazed on bolt handle

4.]  declining quality control

5.]  non existent customer service

6.]  a trigger group made from stamped metal


 :D


About every 6 months someone starts a "I hate Remington" thread and all the "usual suspects" chime in with their sob stories.  I wonder how many millions of satisfied customers there are out there?  I can only speak of my own personal experience...no hearsay, rumors, war stories, or "I heard this around the campfire crap..."  I own 3 Remington rifles, all 700 BDL's purchased within the past couple of years, and numerous Remington shotguns (1100's and 870's) purchased within the past 20 years.  All have been EXCELLENT guns, right out of the box.  All the rifles required were minor trigger adjustments that took about 15 minutes each.  They all function and shoot great...all the rifles will shoot 1 MOA with factory ammo and I have experienced NONE of the problems referenced above.  I can only conclude that I have been exceptionally lucky in my selection of samples of their products....I have had NO complaints with them whatsoever and will continue to shoot and enjoy them.  When I compare them with some of the imported foreign stuff, I will choose Remingtons every time.  I also own several Winchester rifles (all post '70 Model 70's) and have had the same excellent luck with them.  In my own personal experience, they are both excellent products.

Offline Captain_Obvious

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Great Remington Debate
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2005, 04:55:35 AM »
I live the model 700. All mine have good triggers, smooth, strong actions, the extractors have been much better than the model 70's I've dealt with, this is not an across the board statement, and the safeties work well.