Author Topic: Premium vs. Traditional Bullets? (Read 2502 times)

SuperstitionCoues · « **on:** July 21, 2005, 09:03:23 AM »

Question for everyone:

I just got off of the phone with the guys at Hornady. I was trying to decide which of their bullets to use in my .30-06 for Mule Deer in Arizona (yes, I am one of the lucky few who have gotten drawn this year). I wasn't sure if I should use their Interlock, SST or Interbond in 30 cal. 165 gr.

What they told me was that - surprisingly - the Interlock would probably be the best thing for my needs. The SST would be more suitable for a smaller species, like our Whitetail (Coues), and the Interbond would probably be a bit of overkill for my situation (although the Interbond would probably give me a little bit better weight retention). This makes my life easier, since I have a few hundred 165 gr. Interlocks already loaded and ready to go. :grin:

I can see the same train of thought being applied to my .25-06 (which loves Sierras or Hornady SST's) that I use for Coues Whitetail. With that in mind, I'm just wondering what other hunters rationale are for using a Premium bullet on a mule-deer or smaller sized game?

beemanbeme · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:13:44 AM »

I do not believe there are any magic bullets that can compensate for a lousy hunter. A spray and pray type so to speak.
My experiences with "premium" bullets has been limited to Nosler and Speer Grand Slams. When I was hunting out west, rather than take an arsenal with me, I would work up a load for the largest animal I was gonna hunt and use it on everything. From antelope to elk. And I started using one of the premium bullets listed above for the extra peace of mind they would give me if I had to take a bad angle shot on an elk. I never tried a Texas heart shot on an elk (or anything else for that matter) but I am confident that either of those bullets would traverse an elk unless you blew the bejeasus out of a ham. I found the NP worked great on elk and mulies. The Grand Slam was one damn fine elk bullet; a little tough for mulies; and too hard for antelope. That's based on looking at the wound channels. You had to be careful and shoot for the exit hole.

All that said, I shot my first elk using a 30-06 with a 200gr Speer Hot Core. And to tell the truth, in 15 years of hunting elk (total of 12 elk), the same combo would have worked for everyone of them. But, of course, I wasn't gonna pass up the chance to buy another rifle and try something different.

Since moving east of the river, most of my hunting is done using hand loads with -ta da- Rem Core Lokts if I can get them. They are one fine standard hunting bullet. If I were going to hunt mulies in Ariz with a 30-06, I'd load up some 165gr Core Lokts in front of about 57grs of 4350 and get to it.

I think sometimes we angst a little too much over bullet selection.

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:27:17 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme

I never tried a Texas heart shot on an elk.

Beemanbeme,

Thanks for your feedback. I agree with what you had to say. Your remarks about the Core Lokt are why I chose the Hornady Interlock in the first place; it was the closest that I could come to a Winchester PowerPoint when I started reloading about four years ago - same principle. At this point, loading anything more pricey than what I have now seems foolish.

One question though. What is a "Texas heart shot"? I've never heard of that before.

TexasNimrod · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:36:54 AM »

The Ole Texas Heart Shot - Think of shooting at the southend of a north bound animal. The trick is to slip the bullet between the hams into the vitals.

Lawdog · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:06:09 AM »

I use premium bullets because I have seen and had to many non-bonded bullets break up on bones using the higher velocity rifles I prefer to use. Example is the Nosler Ballistic Tip Big Game bullet. According to Nosler's own technicians it wasn't designed for velocities over 2,850 fps. Admittedly they are very accurate but after almost loosing some nice bucks because of bullet fragmenting on ribs I went back to Nosler Partitions. Now I have switched overt to Barnes TSX bullets in all my rifles. Better accuracy, deeper penetration using lighter weight bullets and the tops in bullet weight retention. Lawdog

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:38:46 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

I use premium bullets because I have seen and had to many non-bonded bullets break up on bones using the higher velocity rifles I prefer to use. Example is the Nosler Ballistic Tip Big Game bullet. According to Nosler's own technicians it wasn't designed for velocities over 2,850 fps. Admittedly they are very accurate but after almost loosing some nice bucks because of bullet fragmenting on ribs I went back to Nosler Partitions. Now I have switched overt to Barnes TSX bullets in all my rifles. Better accuracy, deeper penetration using lighter weight bullets and the tops in bullet weight retention. Lawdog

I will have to second Lawdogs post.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2005, 01:02:56 PM »

I stay away from plastic tipped bullets these days. I tried Hornady SSTs and while it did ok it was more meat damage than needed IMHO. I use Core-Lokts in my .243 and 7mm-08. I started using 165gr Hornady interlocks in my 30-06. The "polymer" tipped bullets have a place but IMHO not at close range.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2005, 01:37:14 PM »

My guess is that the Remington Corelot has killed more game than any other bullet made period.

IMHO I just don't see the need for a "premium" bullet. Maybe at higher velocities, but Remington makes a corelot for the .300's and other high velocity rounds as well.

Now, if a barnes, hornady, nosler, etc. shoots better than a corelot or etc out of my rifle, then the extra cost may be worth it.

This is kind of like christians fighting about which is the right church........

marylandeer · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2005, 03:33:06 PM »

AMEN :grin:

Ramrod · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2005, 06:24:57 PM »

I'm with victorcharlie on this one, it would be awfull hard to find a bullet that has killed more game than the good old Remington Core-lockts. At normal hunting ranges, out of normal hunting rifle, they do the job. Anything else you might think you need is because you have fallen for the marketing hype of the premium bullet makers.

cal sibley · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2005, 06:30:45 PM »

I have problems at times figuring out just what constitutes a "premium bullet." The Remington Cor-lok doesn't strike me as a premium bullet. I've found it to be quite good over the years, does the job well. However,
I used a new batch about a month ago and got nowhere near my usual accuracy. I guess I'm becomig snakebit by Remington. I think most people agree the quality of Remington rifles has went down in recent years. Even their brass leaves a lot to be desired so I'm not sure I want to continue putting faith in their bullets. Maybe they're in a down cycle and will rebound. I hope so. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

jro45 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2005, 03:39:54 AM »

The Quality of Remington rifles couldn't be better. I use hornady bullets,
Speer, Remington, Serria and they all shoot acurately for me. I'm not saying that bullet companys don't make mistakes. Premium bullets I concider Noslers and there are a few others.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:32:59 AM »

I am so glad we have choices. I choose to shoot Barnes bullets. I did not buy into the hype, but from experience I have better accuracy and bullet performance. Shot what you want, but don't knock what others choose to shoot.
If a particular bullet works for you then use it, but not everyone needs to use Remington Cor-lok, just because it killed a lot of game. :roll:

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2005, 05:34:17 AM »

Quote from: Ramrod

I'm with victorcharlie on this one, it would be awfull hard to find a bullet that has killed more game than the good old Remington Core-lockts. At normal hunting ranges, out of normal hunting rifle, they do the job. Anything else you might think you need is because you have fallen for the marketing hype of the premium bullet makers.

IMHO, Ramrod has it, with the last sentence of what he has said.

One of the reasons that I asked the question and posted it in the first place is the "odd looks" and comments of my local hunting buddies (and others in a hunting newsgroup) when I say to them I'm hunting with either Sierras or Hornady Interlocks. I don't consider these to be Premium bullets like a Nosler, CT, or Hndy Interbonds. They think that I'm insane not to spend the time or trouble developing loads with bullets that cost ~$25.00 per 50.

Why should I, when "conventional" bullet is going to do the same job on game? For an extra piece of mind? The "...level of angst..." - as someone else put it - over my bullet selection is countered by my confidence in my hunting abilities. Marketing hype being what it is, I can see the need for a premium bullet, and I don't need one; premium bullets of upwards to $30.00 a box for 100 are not going to extend the reach of my firearm or increase my shooting abilities. No, I'm not knocking anyone else's practices or preferences, just simply stating mine. I just don't understand why other hunters don't bother to understand my viewpoint. Give me a traditional boat-tail spitzer and I'm happy.

For what it's worth, factory loaded Remington Core - lokts are as good to me as the Sierras or Hornadys that I've shot. There is only one reason that I don't reload them in my shop. I cannot find anywhere, load data for a Remington bullet in any caliber. Yes, I have looked in all of the typical sources. I am loathe to start experimenting without such data. Too many years commercially blending and processing energetics and propellants to start "winging" it now. A healthy respect for these materials has kept me alive with all of my appendages intact, and I intend on keeping it that way. So, if anyone has load data using Remington Core-lokts in .25-06, .30-06, 7mm WSM or .30-30 (or knows where to get it) I would really like for you to share it.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2005, 08:01:41 AM »

I have used Hornady and Speer books to load Rem bullets. When working up a load, you should always give yourself a buffer between your starting load and what the books calls max. I have always felt that buffer gave me the needed safety factor.

I once made the comment that I bought large sacks of say Speer 200gr bullets to practice with and hunted with 200gr Grand Slams. And followed that practice with several other bullets: using like weight "cheap" bullets to practice with while using the high dollar spread for hunting. One fellow derided the practice because there was only a few cents difference between the cost of the two bullets. Apparently he was one of those box a year or so men. When you are shooting several hundred bullets over the course of a year from several different rifles, the total cost of your premium bullets can mount up to a tidy sum.

But, back to your post. The reason your buddies are looking askew at you is because deep down in their hearts they know you're onto something but they have been too brain washed to admit it: "It cost more so its got to be better." "Right"

? I mean if a standard bullet passes completely thru a deer and travels 100 yards beyond, then a bullet that passes completely thru a deer and travels 125 yards beyond is bound to be better. Right?? If you have a greed for speed and like to shoot light for calibre bullets at boy howdy look what I can do speeds, then, of course, you're gonna need a specially constructed bullet to withstand the rotational forces and you're gonna have to pay for it. But don't try to make it into a virtue because the bottom line is: "are the deer any deader?"

MT4XFore · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2005, 09:17:53 AM »

Ok, fellas,

I've been biting my tongue until there is blood all over my desk, so here is my two cents worth. I moved to Montana in 1976 and started hunting out here with my .257 WBY Mag. At the time it was all I had, and I had bullet failures out of ALL the major brands except the Nosler Partition. The only critter that I didn't have a failure on was antelope. Now, failure to me means creating an awful hole on the impact side with little or no penetration to the vitals. Since then I've hunted with 7mm Rem Mag, 308 Norma Mag, and 300 WBY mag. and the same holds true with them. So obviously, in my feeble mind, velocity is the thing that makes a difference here. In calibers that dont use lots and lots of powder and dont exceed 3000 fps too much, I truly believe it doesn't matter much what bullet you use as long as it is from a reputable manufacturer. However, if you want to use a whiz-bang whomper stomper like I do, then I am convinced that premium bullets are the only way to go. The Hornady Interbond is a real game getter and not all that more expensive either. The manufacturing process required for bonded bullets of any make ends up producing a much superior bullet accuracy wise too. Partitions are great, Barnes are super, and the various bonded bullets from Hornady, Nosler and Swift are fabulous. We ARE spoiled by all the choices we have, aint it GRAND!!!!

Lawdog · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2005, 10:04:22 AM »

Quote

Anything else you might think you need is because you have fallen for the marketing hype of the premium bullet makers.

Just what is considered "marketing hype" when in the face of personal experience where so called non-premium bullets have fragmented after hitting a rib bone upon entry? Not once but five times I have seen this happen on large Blacktail and Mule Deer. All deer required additional tracking and shots to bring them down. Nothing wrong with shot placement either as all but one were shot in the heart/lung area(the other was a shoulder shot due to the angle of the der). There is no such thing as marketing hype when premium bullet superior performance has been proven time and time again. Use any bullet you want when using standard velocity cartridges(any under 3,000 fps.) but in magnum cartridges their use is a crap shoot. Lawdog

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2005, 11:01:29 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Quote
Anything else you might think you need is because you have fallen for the marketing hype of the premium bullet makers.

Just what is considered "marketing hype" when in the face of personal experience where so called non-premium bullets have fragmented after hitting a rib bone upon entry? Not once but five times I have seen this happen on large Blacktail and Mule Deer. All deer required additional tracking and shots to bring them down. Nothing wrong with shot placement either as all but one were shot in the heart/lung area(the other was a shoulder shot due to the angle of the der). There is no such thing as marketing hype when premium bullet superior performance has been proven time and time again. Use any bullet you want when using standard velocity cartridges(any under 3,000 fps.) but in magnum cartridges their use is a crap shoot. Lawdog

Lawdog, marketing hype are words people use to justify being cheap and just not knowing the benefit of good bullets.

:-D :-D

victorcharlie · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2005, 12:20:25 PM »

Use the bullet you want to use! Sure, high velocity advocates may be better served by "premium" bullets. I won't go into the need for hyper velocity magnum cartridges for game such as deer. I'm a .35 Remington kind of guy, and corlots are just fine for my style of hunting. I occasionally use a .270, and hunted for many years with the lowly little .243 that we all know is under powered for deer......trouble is, the 50+ deer I killed with it didn't know it was underpowered. We all know the deer today are super deer and much tougher than the deer of yesteryear so of course they require magnum hyper velocity cartridges with the latest, most expensive bullets available.

Now, if I had a complex that required I shoot the biggest, fastest, whiz-banger available, then that complex would probably also require the latest bullet technology to go with it!

roper · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2005, 12:44:25 PM »

I'm no expert but just hunt here in the US and I for one us Rem 30cal 165 and 180 gr bullets and they do perform over 3000fps. I use them in a 300Wby,30-338,300mag and 300wsm all those rifles expect the 300wby are custom. I've never had a bullet failure(really don't know what one is since I've never recover a bullet from an animal I've shot) with a Rem bullet so cann't comment and I've taken 30 plus elk and alot of deer. So don't mean to be smart or anything but when someone talks about bullet failure that is their experience and what bullet they decide to use is their choice also nor do I expect that person to follow what I use as a bullet either. Every year I buy a box or two of those high dollar bullets just to see what they look like and how they shoot. I do like the interbond and scirocco design and they shoot pretty good. I do have a problem with the lenght of those bullets taking up case capacity and if a rifle was throated for those bullets or a magazine would allow for them to be seated out further they may be OK. I tried some accubond in a 300rum and they were ok. I've still got some 160gr barnes for a 270 and some of the second change 6mm partition from the 60's that didn't expand and 2nd change grand slam that wouldn't expand and 2 boxes for the 2nd change of nosler BT 6mm 70 gr bullets that wouldn't expand also some nosler partition 210gr 338 cal bullets that wouldn't expand. How did somone put it being cheap and not knowing what a good bullet is. Well I'll just continue to be cheap.

Ramrod · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2005, 02:23:27 PM »

It seems almost everyone wants something newer, shinier, faster, and cooler than their pals and neighbors. Personally, I don't play that "my _____ (fill in the blank with gun, truck, boat, house, wife, ect) is bigger than yours", game. The maketing guys know this and use your competetive urges against you to seperate you from your dollars. I'll not be a sucker to them. You all can use what you want. I'm not cheap for not overspending.
No one needs a short magnum or premium bullets to kill any North American game. When it comes down to it, blackpowder guns have been doing it for along time.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:07:07 PM »

Ramrod, you read my mind!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:15:31 PM »

Some of you guys are touchy :lol: Use what you want, but we all have a right to use what makes us happy. If you want to shoot less expensive bullets and they work for you, then by all means do it. But if other choose to use a bullet that may cost more or look different, then what is the big deal?

You guys kill me. :-D I could care less what you use, I don't hunt with you and I really don't care if you like what I use. Some people like Volkswagons, some like BMW's. :-D

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:19:38 PM »

Quote from: Ramrod

No one needs a short magnum or premium bullets to kill any North American game. When it comes down to it, blackpowder guns have been doing it for along time.

But I bet if a long time ago they had the guns of today, they would of used them.

roper · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2005, 07:24:35 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

Some of you guys are touchy :lol: Use what you want, but we all have a right to use what makes us happy. If you want to shoot less expensive bullets and they work for you, then by all means do it. But if other choose to use a bullet that may cost more or look different, then what is the big deal?

You guys kill me. :-D I could care less what you use, I don't hunt with you and I really don't care if you like what I use. Some people like Volkswagons, some like BMW's. :-D

I suggest you take a break for awhile your getting how should I say nasty and sarcastic with your comments instead of being helpful. Isn't this suppose to be a friendly board as you say and I would think if anyone you should be setting an example for the rest of us to follow or don't the rules apply to you. There is no need to put people down just because they disagree with you or act like your better than they are with your comments. You imply people are cheap if they don't use the bullets you think they should and you wonder why some are touchy as you say.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2005, 01:59:35 AM »

Quote from: roper

Quote from: Redhawk1
Some of you guys are touchy :lol: Use what you want, but we all have a right to use what makes us happy. If you want to shoot less expensive bullets and they work for you, then by all means do it. But if other choose to use a bullet that may cost more or look different, then what is the big deal?

You guys kill me. :-D I could care less what you use, I don't hunt with you and I really don't care if you like what I use. Some people like Volkswagons, some like BMW's. :-D
I suggest you take a break for awhile your getting how should I say nasty and sarcastic with your comments instead of being helpful. Isn't this suppose to be a friendly board as you say and I would think if anyone you should be setting an example for the rest of us to follow or don't the rules apply to you. There is no need to put people down just because they disagree with you or act like your better than they are with your comments. You imply people are cheap if they don't use the bullets you think they should and you wonder why some are touchy as you say.

Roper, my comments are made in jest, did you notice the smiley faces. Being a Moderator does not make me above all. I am no different than anyone on this site. You just choose to point me out. You have a PM. Read it.

Zachary · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2005, 02:59:50 AM »

Let me put on my moderator hat for a sec.

Roper, Redhawk is right. When he puts smiley faces after his statements, then they are made in jest. As a moderator of this site for a long time, I can tell you that Redhawk is not the type of person that you characterized him to be.

Please do not take any offense to any of Redhawk's statements, because I am certain that they were not intended to be offensive.

If anyone has any other comments to make about Roper vs. Redhawk, then from this point forward they should be made to me directly through PM.

As for the general topic of premium vs. traditional bullets, carry on.

Zachary

Nebraska Kelly · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2005, 03:02:09 AM »

I like to use a 243 to hunt in Nebraska. I use it on whitetail deer and coyotes and other targets of opportunity throughout the hunting months. I have always used the Hornaday 100gr flat base. It has always worked good. But this year after reading about the 95gr SST on the Hornaday website I thouhgt I would try them. They claim the the bullet design will make a good deer bullet. I thought if it works I could load just that bullet for all of my 243 shooting. It might be I dont have to switch to 75gr hollow point hornadays if the 95Gr SST shoots well for me and isnt to destructive on whitetails. I will know in a few months I guess.
Nebraska Kelly

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2005, 03:08:27 AM »

Quote from: Nebraska Kelly

I like to use a 243 to hunt in Nebraska. I use it on whitetail deer and coyotes and other targets of opportunity throughout the hunting months. I have always used the Hornaday 100gr flat base. It has always worked good. But this year after reading about the 95gr SST on the Hornaday website I thouhgt I would try them. They claim the the bullet design will make a good deer bullet. I thought if it works I could load just that bullet for all of my 243 shooting. It might be I dont have to switch to 75gr hollow point hornadays if the 95Gr SST shoots well for me and isnt to destructive on whitetails. I will know in a few months I guess.
Nebraska Kelly

Nebraska Kelly, I have used the 95Gr SST in my 243 and they shot great. My 243 likes the heaver bullets opposed to the lighter ones.

Rummer · « **Reply #29 on:** July 23, 2005, 04:45:39 AM »

I think it all comes down to picking the bullet that meets your needs and personal preferences.

The bullets construction has to be matched to the game being hunted and the anticipated impact velocity. It goes without saying that the bullet must be placed correctly.

The most commonly hunted animal in this country is white-tailed deer. The bulk of these animals are shot at less than 200 yards, probably a lot less than 200 yards.

Deer aren't all that hard to kill.

That being said most of us don't require magnum rifles or premium bullets for our hunting. So here is where personal preference comes into play.

Some guys are fans of 80 grain bullets in the .243 claiming that when slipped behind the shoulder they explode and the deer drops. I am not going tell them that it won't work, but I do not feel inclined to try it.

I have rarely seen a deer further than 150 yards away while hunting. I haven't practiced much shooting beyond 100 yards. So my personal preference for deer hunting is standard calibers and standard bullets. I am a real fan of 30-35 caliber bullets coming out of .308, Mauser, or '06 length cases.

Now when I move out to CA at the end of the year I may get a chance to Elk hunt if not in CA somewhere else out west. You can bet that if I get that chance I will invest the extra cash in the premium bullets, as I think it would be silly to spend all that money on every other facet of the hunt and try to save a few bucks on premium bullets.

John