Premium vs. Traditional Bullets?

[Dave in WV]

One hunter goes out every year and gets a deer with a rifle that was either handed down or off of the "well" used rack with a $50 scope. Another carries a custom rig with a $1k+ scope and is equally successful. Which one is correct? One fellow uses expensive bullets that give "one hole" accuracy. Another uses standard bullets that give accepable accuracy. Both get equal results. Which one is correct. To me it's the differences that make it interesting.  No sense in locking horns when we know we're right and we all "know" we're right. Right?  :wink:

[Redhawk1]

One hunter goes out every year and gets a deer with a rifle that was either handed down or off of the "well" used rack with a $50 scope. Another carries a custom rig with a $1k+ scope and is equally successful. Which one is correct? One fellow uses expensive bullets that give "one hole" accuracy. Another uses standard bullets that give accepable accuracy. Both get equal results. Which one is correct. To me it's the differences that make it interesting.  No sense in locking horns when we know we're right and we all "know" we're right. Right?  :wink:

I like the way you think.   :-D  But can we all be right....

[Coyote Hunter]

...the good old Remington Core-lockts. At normal hunting ranges, out of normal hunting rifle, they do the job. Anything else you might think you need is because you have fallen for the marketing hype of the premium bullet makers.

So, Ramrod - you subscribe to the philosophy that “premium bullets” are “sucker bullets”, with all that implies?

Frankly, I don’t care what other people shoot, but experience has led me down the path of premium bullets for big game.  Yes, a 7mm Hornady 162 BTSP took my first elk, and yes, Speer 160g Grand Slams have taken all but one since.  But these days its North Fork bonded bullets for the Marlin .45-70, Rem 7mm Mag and .300 Win Mag.  For the .257 Roberts its Barnes TSX’s, Speer Grand Slams or Nosler Partitions for now and maybe, if I ever get a chance to work up the loads, Swift A-Frames or Speer Trophy Bonded (do they make a TB in .257”?).

Yes, bullet cost is about $1 each, which is why I shoot them sparingly at the range and have alternative loads developed that shoot to the same POI (or close enough) for practice.  These super-premium loads cost me the same as “standard” factory ammo down at Wal-Mart.  Last time I checked nobody was implying the people that buy factory Cor-Lokt ammo at $1 a cartridge are “suckers”, but it seems to be a common insult hurled at those who handload premium bullets for the same cost.  Two years ago I took a nice bull elk and a forkhorn mulie with 350g North Fork bullets and my Marlin .45-70.  Had I shot Hornady 350g “standard” bullets I would have saved a whopping $1.42 for the entire trip.  At that rate I would save enough money for a cheap glass of wine in only 4 or 5 years.  Gives me a woody just thinking about the possibilities such savings make possible – if I shoot enough game I might be able to retire 15 minutes sooner!

What I want in a bullet is reliable but controlled and limited expansion with maximum weight retention – at ranges both near and far.  This combination of features give me what I feel is the best chance for deep penetration in any given circumstance.  And the bullets that can best provide this level of performance are, IMHO, bonded core bullets with a means of positively limiting expansion.  In my mind that means Swift A-Frame, Speer Trophy Bonded, or North Fork bonded.

Standard cup and core bullets may work just fine most of the time, but I have seen too many cases where they failed to perform as desired, particularly at high velocities. People can claim standard “cup and core” bullets will perform as well as premium bullets most of the time, and they would be correct, but I doubt anyone in their right mind would claim they will perform as well under --all-- circumstances.  Conversely, premium bullets can be expected to perform as well as standard bullets under all conditions and –better-- in those situations where the challenge to bullet integrity is most severe.  I gave up smoking (which really saved money), gave up coffee and have nearly given up beer and wine, but I’ll not be giving up premium bullets for game.

[Ramrod]

All I can say is that in the first post here, by SuperstitionCoues, Hornady reccommended their "traditional" bullet (very much like a Remington Core-Lock), over their "premium". The question was

I'm just wondering what other hunters rationale are for using a Premium bullet on a mule-deer or smaller sized game?

I'll not argue with a bullet maker when he says you don't need the premium bullets.

[Redhawk1]

Coyote Hunter, I was very impressed with your post. You made very good points about costs.  My reason for switching to premium bullets was two fold, performance and accuracy.  

[Zachary]

It's kinda hard for me to say that premium bullets perform better and are more accurate.

Take for example plain jane conventional remington core lokts.  They have been a proven bullet design and have killed deer and other animals for years.  At close shots, the core lokts usually have the jacket and the lead core separate, thus not as good penetration.  

Now, let's take a look at the Nosler Ballistic tip which is marketed as a "Premium" bullet.  Given the same weight and velocity as a core lokt, the Ballistic tip will literally blow up into hundreds of pieces - but then again, that is what it is intended for.  Will it penetrate deeper than a Tradional bullet?  I don't think so.

So, why is the ballistic tip "premium?"  People will say that it is premium because it is designed to explode like that - giving a lot of "shock" to an animal.  Ah ha.  But an X-Bullet or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or Swift-A-Frame is a premium bullet and it retains over 90% of their weight and they too are considered premium but they don't explode like the ballistic tip which is similarly marketed as premium.

So it all boils down to what your definition of performance is.  For some it may be explosive.  For others it may be hold together toughness.  For those who define it as hold together toughness, then they would use a traditional bullet over a premium ballistic tip because the traditional bullet would hold together better than the ballistic tip.

Now, as for accuracy.  Generally speaking, plastic tipped bullets,  like the accubond, SST, Nosler Ballistic Tip, etc., are generally more accurate than traditional bullets like core lockts, etc.  However, Premium does not always mean more accurate.

Believe it or not, I have a few rifles that shoot traditional bullets more accurately than plastic tipped bullets - go figure.  More importantly, bullets like the Swift-A-Frame and  Trophy Bonded, for example, may be marketed as premium (and perhaps as they should be because they retain so much weight), but sometimes their accuracy is bad, and sometimes way worse than conventional bullets.

The bottom line is don't necessarily look at the label on the box.  What may be premium for someone else may not be premium for you.  Also,  look at your type of hunting.  Most shots are whitetail deer are taken at ranges between 50 and 150 yards.  Under these cases, it's hard to say that you NEED a PREMIUM bullet.  You may want such a bullet, but you really don't need it.  Now, if you are hunting ELK with, say, a .270 Winchester, which is generally speaking on the light side for elk, then I would recommend "hold together toughness" premium bullets like the Barnes X, TB, or Swift A Frame over Premium bullets like the Nosler Ballistic Tip.

Sure, get a bullet that is accurate in your rifle and performs well for YOUR intended purpose and adheres to your definition of performance.  Sometimes buying ammo just because the label says "Premium" could be a mistake. :wink:

Zachary

[williek]

I believe that every bullet made today is a better product then the bullets that we used fifty years ago when I first started hunting big game, and yet the deer at that time seemed to fall down and die with pretty fair consistentsy if you did your part.
Todays low cost, run of the mill, journeyman bullets would have been the gee whiz look what I've got Mom magnum killem at a mile bullet in 1955.
We are grazing in green pastures and don't seem to recognize how well we are doing.  The animals haven't changed, and if I were shooting a plus plus 3000 fps rifle  at a super tough animal you can bet your little booties I would choose a premium bullet for the job. But, for the regular old animal, with the regular old gun, from a regular old man, I think todays regular old bullets will do just fine.
Good Hunting,
williek

[Redhawk1]

Zachary, what I mean is in my guns, my accuracy is better. The performance I like is almost 100% bullet weight retention. I use Barnes bullets for all my big game rifle hunting. Now when I hunt with handguns I also like a quality bullet, I mostly use cast bullets for that application. I also use Nosler partitions and Barnes .

[Zachary]

Redhawk,

I too define performance as high weight retention.  I adhere to the penetration school of thought rather than the explosive shock school of thought.  That's not to say that I'm right or wrong - just what my school of thought is.  As such, my favorite bullet for weight retention is also the Barnes X (now TSX), which I use almost exclusively for wild hogs.  For all-round hunting, I too like the Partition.  No, it does not have very high weight retention, but it is a good compromise and has never let me down.  The reason that I use "premium" bullets (meaning my definition - high weight retention) is because I often encounter hogs while hunting, and those suckers need tough bullets to put them down - no ballistic tip will work if you shot is on the grisle plate.   Heck, one time my brother (who knows little about guns, bullets, etc., bought 150 grain Winchester Power Points for my 7mm Rem Mag.  I told him to get 160 Partitions, but he didn't listen to me (or didn't remember).  Anyway, from what he told me when he went hunting (I couldn't go because I was in law school at the time), he took a shot at big hog about 50 yards away.  He said that  he aimed at the shoulder, and the bullet hit perfectly where he aimed, but the hog ran off and they never found it.  Guess what?  He found chunks of bone and blood where he shot the hog, but no hog.  I'm certain that if he would have used at least a partition - and preferably a Barnes X, then the bullet would not have exploded on impact and would have penetrated, probably both sides, thus anchoring the hog.

Also, both bullets shoot very well in my rifles too.  :grin:

Zachary

[Dave in WV]

IMHO terminal ballistics is something many hunters don't truly consider as important as accuracy. I'd rather use a bullet that consistently performs as I desire and gives me say 1" three shot groups than one that doesn't perform to my liking and gives under .5" groups. I want a bullet to give clean kills without being overly destructive. I find less than 100% weight retention acceptable so long as the bullet doesn't fragment or separate.  I used SSTs for one season and got over it. They are a bit more accurate but do more meat damage. Standard cup and core bullets have worked well for me around here for deer hunting. I'll probably stick with them.
 :toast:

[Slamfire]

Once upon a time I lusted for the super go fast cartridges. I grew out of it. Money had something to do with it, recoil was also a factor. I use Hornady Inter Locked bullets in my .260 because the rifle likes them. I stick to the 129 grain weight because it'll work on anything I might hunt here in E. TN. When we git a season on elk I'll just load up some 140s, I've used 'em before and they worked.  

[Coyote Hunter]

...Hornady reccommended their "traditional" bullet (very much like a Remington Core-Lock), over their "premium". ...
I'll not argue with a bullet maker when he says you don't need the premium bullets.

The question put to Hornady regarded a .30-06, 165g bullets and mule deer.  According to the original poster Hornady’s answer was

“...the Interlock would probably be the best thing for my needs. The SST would be more suitable for a smaller species, like our Whitetail (Coues), and the Interbond would probably be a bit of overkill...”

I can just hear the call now...  “Hornady, I have a few hundred 165g Interlocks and was wondering which bullet would be best...”  

Given that the poster already had a big pile of 165g Interlocks, I would agree with Hornady’s recommendation that they would “probably” be the best choice.   At the same time Hornady suggested their InterBond might be an even better choice when they said it “would probably be a bit of overkill”.  To quote Hornady, the InterBond “delivers an unprecedented combination of accuracy, expansion, and deadly penetration”.  If that’s “overkill”, it’s just what I want!  Hornady does, of course, load the 165g InterBond for the .30-06 in their Light Magnum line.

[SuperstitionCoues]

...Hornady reccommended their "traditional" bullet (very much like a Remington Core-Lock), over their "premium". ...
I'll not argue with a bullet maker when he says you don't need the premium bullets.

The question put to Hornady regarded a .30-06, 165g bullets and mule deer.  According to the original poster Hornady’s answer was

“...the Interlock would probably be the best thing for my needs. The SST would be more suitable for a smaller species, like our Whitetail (Coues), and the Interbond would probably be a bit of overkill...”

I can just hear the call now...  “Hornady, I have a few hundred 165g Interlocks and was wondering which bullet would be best...”  

Given that the poster already had a big pile of 165g Interlocks, I would agree with Hornady’s recommendation that they would “probably” be the best choice.   At the same time Hornady suggested their InterBond might be an even better choice when they said it “would probably be a bit of overkill”.  To quote Hornady, the InterBond “delivers an unprecedented combination of accuracy, expansion, and deadly penetration”.  If that’s “overkill”, it’s just what I want!  Hornady does, of course, load the 165g InterBond for the .30-06 in their Light Magnum line.

CoyoteHunter,

I do take exception to your post.  You are calling into question my integrity and honesty when I spoke with Hornady.  

Never once did I offer as information what or how many of 165 gr. Hndy Interlocks I had reloaded or had as unloaded components.  I simply asked the question because I wanted to know which bullet type would be the best suited for Mule Deer.  That's it.  Fact of the matter is that when I experimented and found the load for the Interlocks in my .30-06, I did it with the intention of being able to use the same load for an SST or Interbond - switching the bullet for the needs of whatever species I was hunting for.  Hornady had no knowledge of this, had no idea of what was sitting on my shelves, and from the conversation, I don't think that knowing any of it would have changed their answer.

For sake of argument, I also called Sierra and asked the same question - I have been thinking about working up a load for Mule Deer with either Sierra 150 gr. or 165 gr. SBT.  They had the same answer as Hornady; load the 165's, they might be better suited for your needs.  Again, they had no knowledge of what is on my reloading bench or shelves.  

Coyotehunter, you went somewhere with that last post that you shouldn't have.  To suggest that I twisted the facts for the sake of a question in an Internet forum is really rather base, and does not speak highly for you.  There is no need to attack the character of the poster.  This original question was to find out why people think premium bullets (bonded, partitioned, etc. bullets that are more expensive than a traditional design) are needed and why they use them.  I thought I could learn a few things for others - and I have. Namely, save the premiums for larger  or dangerous species like Elk or Bear, where it's necessary.

Just by asking this question you would think that I had spat on the Holy Bible or Torah.  People like you make people like me want to hunt alone.

[victorcharlie]

Hey Super, It's not that bad!  You asked a great question that has spurned much thought and spouted lots of people opinions.  This thread has been very  entertaining to me.  Your character was never in question with me!

[Coyote Hunter]

CoyoteHunter,

I do take exception to your post.  You are calling into question my integrity and honesty when I spoke with Hornady.  

Take all the exception you want, but it was not my intention to call your integrity or honesty into question.  Had I been the one calling Hornady I would have let them know I had a lot of Interlocks.  Shouldn’t make a big difference one way or another.

...  Coyotehunter, you went somewhere with that last post that you shouldn't have.  To suggest that I twisted the facts for the sake of a question in an Internet forum is really rather base, and does not speak highly for you.  There is no need to attack the character of the poster.  This original question was to find out why people think premium bullets (bonded, partitioned, etc. bullets that are more expensive than a traditional design) are needed and why they use them.  I thought I could learn a few things for others - and I have. Namely, save the premiums for larger  or dangerous species like Elk or Bear, where it's necessary.

Just by asking this question you would think that I had spat on the Holy Bible or Torah.  People like you make people like me want to hunt alone.

You seem to be hypersensitive on this issue, assigning ill motives where there are none.

[Buckfever]

I we all have been out of the field a little to long and we need to get backing to real hunting and what works for each of us.  I had a friend who raced small sports cars and he said there is a term call "Bench Racers" which means all the BS before and after races.  I think we are all too sensitive because we haven't been in the field for a long time.  After a full day hunting we won't have the energy to Bench Hunt on this site.  
Buckfever

[lilabner]

The Nosler Partition, my favorite bullet, came out back in the 1940s. Is it a traditional or a premium?  I like the NP because the design is good for high velocity cartridges and hunting where the shots can be very long or very close. In the western mountains, that is the situation hunters face. Some bullets blow up like hand grenades at close range, turning much of the animal into bloodshot hamburger on the spot. On larger animals, they can fail to reach the vitals. Some bullets won't expand reliably at long ranges. The NP will, because the nose is designed for quick, easy expansion. The NP isn't the most accurate in my rifles but it is plenty good enough to meet my needs. I would choose a different bullet to decapitate prairie dogs.

[Ramrod]

People like you make people like me want to hunt alone.

That's what I USUALLY do. I like not having to bring the hip-boots along when I'm not hunting the swamp.

[SuperstitionCoues]

Ramrod,

I also USUALLY hunt alone, and miss doing it as such.  Much easier to "run" your own hunt, rather than entertain others notions about what will work or is a good idea, or just plain needing hip waders when hunting in a desert.

Past couple of years have been different.  Back surgery last year for a bad disc, and it looks like abdominal surger to re-arrange my stomach and right lung before the summer is out.  It's looking like I'll have to buddy up by the beginning of November for Mule Deer and Quail.  Damn, I'm only 38 and my wife thinks I need a keeper!  I'm too young for this stuff.  I miss the days when I could walk the Superstitions solo, with impunity.  Cross your fingers I get those back, would ya?
 :wink:

[wolfsong]

I am no expert on ballistics, my hunting partners advise me on that. I just use what works for me. I use Winchester GPX2s, 180 nosler ballistic silvertips for Sierra Mountain blacktails. Most shots are in the 150 to 250 yard range, rarely longer than that. Shooting a Remington 700bdl in 30.06 I've filled my tags the past five years with this ammo. All have been one shot kills and dropped em in their tracks. Shot placement and luck I guess. Can't help but think that the ammo played a big part in the results. But when I'm pig hunting or going for black bear, I shoot Remington 180 gr express core-lokt with a Weatherby Mark V in 30.06. The winchester/nosler bal tip didn't get the penetration on hogs or bear, the core-lokt gave me much better results. There's about a $15.00 per 20 rounds price difference between the winchester rounds and the remingtons. I personally don't see a difference when taking medium range shots on deer, but much prefer the core-lokts on the tough game. IMHO I don't think it matters unless you're taking longer range shots. I could be wrong, what do I know? Just sharing my experiance. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.   P.S. I prefer hunting alone, too. I just try to keep a teenager or two on the other end of the radio to help get the game back to the rig or camp. My back ain't what it used to be, but the old heart is willing...

[Dave in WV]

I prefer to hunt with my son "High Brass".

[Paul Barnard]

Coyote Hunter:

You post was both humorous and well informed.  I laughed out loud at it.  I subscribe to the same school of thought.  With all the money we dump into guns, scopes, gas, licenses, etc.  why try to save a couple shots of cheap whiskey on the one thing that is most essential to the kill. For the SE USA I think Partitions are all the premium bullet I need.  Trophy Bonded Bear Claws won me over on a combination Deer/Bear hunt in Alaska.  End to end penetration and an exit on a frontal shot blacktail buck.  That bullet might still be orbiting the island.  Never got to warm a Brownie up with my 35 Whelen, but I had plenty confidence in the TBBC.

[Coyote Hunter]

...With all the money we dump into guns, scopes, gas, licenses, etc.  why try to save a couple shots of cheap whiskey on the one thing that is most essential to the kill. ...

Paul -

Sorry you didn't get a brownie, but at least you got to go looking!

Last year I spent over $1,000  :cry:  to get my truck ready for elk hunting.  Then on  our way to the camp site north of Craig, CO, the clutch went out in Laramie, WY.  That cost me even more  :cry:  :cry:   (by a considerable margin, the Ford dealer wanted $1,100 for the "dual-mask" clutch plate, plus labor).  All told, approaching $3,000 in truck repairs.  This year Big Red needs new tires.  :roll:  No way I'm going to worry about whether a shot at game costs me $0.39 or $1.00 each.

[jmckinley]

Here's my 2 pennies worth. Granted I haven't taken that many big game animals with a rifle. Was a bow hunter for many moons until my shoulder couldn't take the stress. I've taken 2 elk, 7 or 8 deer  the past 40 years. I used either Winchester Silver Tips or the Core-Lokts until my Bull last fall. The I used a 180gr Core Lokt Ultra with wonderful results, one shot one very dead 6x6. With that said in my 6mm I'll be using the 100gr NP. If I use my 06 again or for that matter 25-06 I will stick with the tried and true.  It will be Core-lokts one and all. In the 300WSM then it will be "premium" stuff. Like the man said more game has fallen to the core-lokts than most of us have seen.
                                                   Jess

[Slamfire]

Here's my 2 pennies worth. Granted I haven't taken that many big game animals with a rifle. Was a bow hunter for many moons until my shoulder couldn't take the stress. I've taken 2 elk, 7 or 8 deer  the past 40 years. I used either Winchester Silver Tips or the Core-Lokts until my Bull last fall. The I used a 180gr Core Lokt Ultra with wonderful results, one shot one very dead 6x6. With that said in my 6mm I'll be using the 100gr NP. If I use my 06 again or for that matter 25-06 I will stick with the tried and true.  It will be Core-lokts one and all. In the 300WSM then it will be "premium" stuff. Like the man said more game has fallen to the core-lokts than most of us have seen.
                                                   Jess

I remember when Corelokts and Silvertips were the premium bullets.  

[jmckinley]

Here's my 2 pennies worth. Granted I haven't taken that many big game animals with a rifle. Was a bow hunter for many moons until my shoulder couldn't take the stress. I've taken 2 elk, 7 or 8 deer  the past 40 years. I used either Winchester Silver Tips or the Core-Lokts until my Bull last fall. The I used a 180gr Core Lokt Ultra with wonderful results, one shot one very dead 6x6. With that said in my 6mm I'll be using the 100gr NP. If I use my 06 again or for that matter 25-06 I will stick with the tried and true.  It will be Core-lokts one and all. In the 300WSM then it will be "premium" stuff. Like the man said more game has fallen to the core-lokts than most of us have seen.
                                                   Jess

I remember when Corelokts and Silvertips were the premium bullets.  

Frankly the top game getters when we wre young bucks were the Silvertips, Core Lokts and Grand Slams. Must have slipped over the past few years and only good for field mice!!!!! Is the premium stuff a good reason to give the companies more of our money or to kill an aminal deader than dead? :-D  :-D  :-D

[victorcharlie]

Personally, It's none of my business how someone spends their money.  realistically, it's not necessarily a whole lot of money we're talking about.  So the price of the bullet doubles, now we're talking about 50 Cents instead of a quarter.  
 
If a fellow feels like he has an edge because he uses brand X bullets, who am I to tell him different.  GO FOR IT!  
 
I do, however stand by my statement that Remington Corelots have probably killed more game than any other bullet made.  

I'm really suprised this thread has gone on for as long as it has.  While very entertaining, this is purely a matter of opinion! :lol:

Are premium bullets really needed?  They must be, people buy them!  Who knows?  I might feel the need one of these days!!!  If I'm going to Africa!

[JPSaxMan]

I like to use a 243 to hunt in Nebraska. I use it on whitetail deer and coyotes and other targets of opportunity throughout the hunting months. I have always used the Hornaday 100gr flat base. It has always worked good. But this year after reading about the 95gr SST on the Hornaday website I thouhgt I would try them. They claim the the bullet design will make a good deer bullet. I thought if it works I could load just that bullet for all of my 243 shooting. It might be I dont have to switch to 75gr hollow point hornadays if the 95Gr SST shoots well for me and isnt to destructive on whitetails. I will know in a few months I guess.
Nebraska Kelly

Nebraska Kelly, I have used the 95Gr SST in my 243 and they shot great.  My 243 likes the heaver bullets opposed to the lighter ones.

I'm thrilled to see that I'm not the only hunter who uses a .243 for deer. I've used Express Core-Lokt's all my time until last year when I was forced to use Ballistic Tips. Was somewhat leery until I pulled the trigger. The doe in my sights at about 20 yards away fell over flat. This year I'm trying Remington's Scirocco Bonded bullets. Why? Dunno, just for something different. I have to get my scope shortly, when I do I'll be at the range sighting in. The only thing I have to say is that I hope they work. Otherwise I just wasted $45 in bullets  :shock:

[jmckinley]

I like to use a 243 to hunt in Nebraska. I use it on whitetail deer and coyotes and other targets of opportunity throughout the hunting months. I have always used the Hornaday 100gr flat base. It has always worked good. But this year after reading about the 95gr SST on the Hornaday website I thouhgt I would try them. They claim the the bullet design will make a good deer bullet. I thought if it works I could load just that bullet for all of my 243 shooting. It might be I dont have to switch to 75gr hollow point hornadays if the 95Gr SST shoots well for me and isnt to destructive on whitetails. I will know in a few months I guess.
Nebraska Kelly

Nebraska Kelly, I have used the 95Gr SST in my 243 and they shot great.  My 243 likes the heaver bullets opposed to the lighter ones.

I'm thrilled to see that I'm not the only hunter who uses a .243 for deer. I've used Express Core-Lokt's all my time until last year when I was forced to use Ballistic Tips. Was somewhat leery until I pulled the trigger. The doe in my sights at about 20 yards away fell over flat. This year I'm trying Remington's Scirocco Bonded bullets. Why? Dunno, just for something different. I have to get my scope shortly, when I do I'll be at the range sighting in. The only thing I have to say is that I hope they work. Otherwise I just wasted $45 in bullets  :shock:

I use the 243 cousin the 6mm as my primary hunting rig. Its a Interarms Mark X mauser with a heavy 26" barrel. It wears a 4x-16m-50mm with Mil-Dot. Fired it today with Federal 100 gr SP and it put 3 rounds into 3/4". I'll be putting a Boyd ross thumbhole to replace the ramline. I just don't like plasic stocks. Must be my age! My hunting partner kills all his game including oryx and Elk with 100gr Grand Slams in a 243. He only needs one shot, period. Easy to shoot is good and makes us better marksman.     Jess

[beemanbeme]

JMC, before you put that thumbhole stock on your hunting rifle, think about what it will be like trying to take the safety off in a quick situation.  Been there, done that and found it very ackward.