Author Topic: Looking for that special rifle, am I on the right path... (Read 2294 times)

goose7856 · « **on:** May 28, 2005, 10:37:53 AM »

I am finally getting my first summer job. I am going to run a conssesion stand. I have to keep track of everything by myself, and it should really be a entertaining/learning experience. Now to my question....Im expecting to make somewhere around $1000-$1500 (yes that sounds like alot, but another stand made close to $10,000 at a different location doing the exact same thing....but ill see how things turn out!!?? :shock: )

As of now I really dont NEED another gun, but I WANT one. The next gun I want is for deer hunting. Right now I have a Remington 30-06 ADL with a Nikon Buckmaster scope. I havent missed yet, and nothing is wrong with the gun, I am just looking for another rifle.

I basically narrowed it down to 2 decisions....either learn to reload and reload my 30-06 with smaller grain bullets (120-140), or to get another gun??

If I decide to go with the latter then I want to go BIG. I want to get the rifle of my life.

Ive basically narrowed down my decision to a Browning Abolt Medallion or Tikka T3 Hunter.

I would get a 25 WSSM in the Browning and a 25-06 in the Tikka.

Ive already gotten the scope chosen, which would be a Bushnell Elite 4-16x40/50 (havent decided which size mm).

I want to get a rifle that does less meat damage than my 30-06, still has long range capabilities, enough knock-down power, and I really want a rifle that looks as good as it shoots.

Sorry this is soooo long!! Hopefully y'all have some advice for me?!

Thanx alot

Ramrod · « **Reply #1 on:** May 28, 2005, 12:16:01 PM »

If meat damage is your main concern, I think you are on the wrong path. Velocity and bullet construction are the main factors here, and fast moving lightweight bullets expand violently, and ruin more meat. Use a premium bullet, or go to heavier slugs, to minimize meat damage. The tradeoff is less "drop in their tracks" kills, but that's life, full of compromises.
If you just want a new gun, well, thats reason enough to get one. :grin:

Dave in WV · « **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2005, 01:02:53 PM »

I agree with Ramrod. In a 30-06 a heavier bullet will damage less meat in general. Staying away from polymer tipped bullets will help too. Now a question for you. Are you planning to use the new rifle for a "dual purpose" rifle ie: deer and varmints? If so you scope choice is rational. If not maybe a smaller lighter scope would be better. Unless you hunt in open areas IMHO a 4x12 scope limits you more than it will help. Bushnell Elites are great scopes. A 50mm objective lens scope on the rifles you are interested in will look out of place to you after a while.

goose7856 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 28, 2005, 02:26:52 PM »

Right now I am using Hornady 165 Interbond Light Magnums.

I guess its not all about meat damage......I just want a new toy :lol:

It will only be used for deer, but last year I did have the oportunity to shoot (and kill) my first coyote. I was deer hunting and two came running back and forth across a road. Finally one stopped at about 95 yards, a quick shot, and he was done for good....but I would like to shoot more coyotes since they are ruining our rabbit population. Maybe next summer I would try calling one in with an electronic caller?!

But the main purpose of the gun is for deer. How does that change any opinions? Thanx for the quick replies so far!

Zachary · « **Reply #4 on:** May 28, 2005, 02:33:56 PM »

I own several Tikkas, and quite a few Elite 4200s (In fact, I own both the Elite 4200 4x.-16x-40mm and 50mm versions). Talk about an excellent combo.

My vote would go for the .270 Winchester. There is a ton of factory ammo available and you can chose the right bullet to reduce damage to meat. Plus, even in its standard form, it has enough power to knock down just about anything in North America. In it's light magnum or High Energy form, it has even more power.

That's not to say that the .25-06 is not a good choice. It's just that I would go with the .270.

Zachary

goose7856 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 28, 2005, 02:37:04 PM »

Zachary, wouldnt you think the 30-06 and a .270 are kind of close in calibers?

I kind of want to space it out. I have a .17 HMR, 12 gauge, and a 30-06....I said a 25-06 because it seems to have a nitch inbetween the 30-06 and .17??!!

bigjeepman · « **Reply #6 on:** May 28, 2005, 03:02:25 PM »

Here is my opinion on your situation ....

For $1500, I think you can have the best of both worlds. Unless I am missing something here, you could have one fine Tikka and a Bushnell Elite 4200 for approximately $1000. That would leave you plenty to get started into reloading by buying a RCBS Supreme Kit, accessories to go with it, powder, dies, primers, and brass.

I honestly get as much enjoyment from reloading my own ammo as I do from shooting and what hunting I do. You would never regret getting into reloading if you are serious about getting the most out of your firearms.

Good luck to you in whatever you decide.

poncaguy · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2005, 03:07:29 PM »

7mm-08, you dont need a 50 scope, stick with a 6X or a 3X9X40.......all you'll ever need..

goose7856 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2005, 07:05:34 PM »

I like the idea of reloading. Can you reload the Weatherby Mag. cartridges??

I was looking at the Weatherby .257 Mag on their website, and it seems to be perfect. Hard hitting, long range, beautiful guns, right size bullets, etc.?!

I really like the looks of the Vangaurd Sporter Stainless Steel and the Tradition blued version as well. They cost a little less, but ammo is a beast! (Thats why I wanted to know if it can be reloaded)?

Thanx alot!!

jvs · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2005, 10:59:56 PM »

Better shot placement might help you more at this point if you are messing up too much meat. Stay away from the shoulder blade or other heavy bone shots and being choosy when you have the time. Straight thru behind the shoulder or diagonal.....'in' behind one shoulder and 'out' in front of the opposite one. Every year I see shoulders and rumps blown out of Deer at the Butcher Shop. Mostly because of choosing a poor shot.

.25-06, .243, 6mm or a 6.5mm may be the caliber(s) you seek. Try them all !

I also agree with "Just wanting one is reason enough to buy one".

victorcharlie · « **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2005, 05:48:22 AM »

Hey Goose, good to see you posting again..........I think the tika in a 25.06 with the Bushnell would be a great choice.....but, the hyper velocity cartridges are going to tear up some meat..........

How about a classic 7 X 57 mm Mauser or 7mm/08? These will probably be somewhat less destructive if you load the 175 grain bullets down to the 2200 to 2400 fps.range.........

As far as meat destruction, the older slow calibers like 45.70 or .35 Remington don't seem to tear up meat as bad......provided you keep the velocity down......and bullet weight up....Need I tell you the story of the tortoise and the hair?

As a young man I liked things fast too........I had a 69 Camaro.....71 Super Bee 440 six pack........7mm Remington Mag.......get the picture? It's hard not to get caught up in the latest whiz-bang, super fast craze.........but, if you want good clean kills, with low meat destruction........round nose soft points between 2000 fps and 2400 are the ticket.......on big game.......now if you want to turn a crow inside out at 300 yards.....that's entirely different.........

Good luck with the concession stand.....I'm sure you'll get out of it what you put into it.........work hard, be honest, give the customer what they want and they'll beat a path to your door.......

OH YOUNG MAN, REJOICE IN THY YOUTH!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2005, 06:31:11 AM »

Quote

I want to get a rifle that does less meat damage than my 30-06, still has long range capabilities, enough knock-down power, and I really want a rifle that looks as good as it shoots.

Quote

Right now I am using Hornady 165 Interbond Light Magnums.

I guess its not all about meat damage......I just want a new toy Laughing

The 257 Weatherby would certainly fill the bill for having a gun that not only looks great...but shoots great too...but I wonder...if your just wanting something new...then just about anything could suffice. You can reload the Weatherby Magnums and save on some money ... after you buy your factory loads...because buying new Weatherby brass isn't cheap...but if your not going to shooting alot ...then it really wouldn't matter...To me...your 30-06 will cover just about all your hunting needs...and you can always spend your money fixing it up with a top-line synthetic stock...new trigger...better scope...and get all of your reloading equipment as well...but if you just wanting to buy a new toy...then take a look at these Weatherby's...http://www.weatherby.com/products/guns.asp?prd=Rifles&prd_sub_type=3&prod_code=VSM243NR4O

They can be had for a-lot less than the MSRP and you still will have enough for your scope too...me...if your wanting a long range larger caliber...the 338 Mag would work nicely...or...like you had said the 257 Weatherby Mag would work well too...

Mac

goose7856 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 29, 2005, 07:58:29 AM »

Thanx for the option on the Weatherby Vangaurds. I was actually looking on the NET last night and found some of those. I really like the looks of the Vanguard® Sporter SS, but the other one you posted would be my first choice in a synthetic stock......the only reason I want wood is that it looks better, and I my 30-06 is a synthetic.

In reality, how much would these nicer Vangaurds really cost? About $500? Can I expect the same accuracy as a Tikka or CZ, or Browning??

Ive really got it narrowed down to a Browning Abot Medallion in either 25-06 or 25 WSSM or a Vanguard® Sporter SS in .257 weatherby mag.

I dont shoot all that much, but still at a cost of about $3 PER SHOT, that adds up quick.

I guess now ive just got to make my decision!!??

Ok well I now have a question about my scope selection......would you choose a zeiss conquest 4.5-14x44 (z-plex) or a bushnell elite 4-16x40??

Similar in price but dont know which would be better??

Thanx for all the help!!!

acearch72 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 30, 2005, 07:28:10 AM »

$3.00/shot is not necessary....

Try this.....

http://www.cpcartridge.com/257wby.htm

goose7856 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 30, 2005, 10:33:26 AM »

your correct....a little under $45.50 divided by 20 comes out at about $2.28 per shot :shock: :lol:

Harry Snippe · « **Reply #15 on:** May 30, 2005, 12:45:01 PM »

Please go to the just mags forum. They do not have too much good to say about the new short Mags . As a matter of fact they dropped the subject on the forum , since winchester/ browning was having problems.

I am not aware of your hunting situation , or the length of most shots taken, in your situation.
I started with the 3006 , then went down with a 308w for many years caring a bolt action. Took me awhile to get away from need "The big gun club", listening to the old timers finally , going to the mid range slow big pill theme.
Well our shots at game sure improved . the lever/pump and or auto, is better suited.
My hunting is mixed bush / marginal farm land, shots range from about 250 yards down to about 30 yards. . Most of the hunting is about 40 to 70 yards.
That is were the lever action comes in. We carry a 30/30 , 44 Mag . 35 rem.and a 358wy BLR. fast follow up shots . Big pills puts them down fast and leave good blood trails. that is a plus in heavy bush.

Now when in the more open places we still have the 3006 and also a 6.5x55 which does well on moose as it will on yotes.

Now you will need a gun for wet dirty weather where a scratch form a rock or twig is not going to bother you. Then you need a fancy good looking gun for open country where shots might be longer than 200 yards and your not going to bang up the stock. Then you need something for deer and maybe something for some bigger game later on.

Get away from needing new a rifle for deer and coyotes, and also bigger game down the road. Used that excuse for years. Got money, guns follow you home.
Put a nice stock on the 3006 and do it all, or well -dog gone it- I see you need three just to start.
The reloading idea is great too. Ammo is cheaper so you tend to shoot more. you do not save any money because you shoot more rounds have a lot of fun becoming a better shot.

Now 99% of my hunting is deer with the odd bear and moose. One gun would go it all. Then I bought another one for those dirty and stock scratchin' days . Then I found that that good looking fancy gun had no place since I always worried about it getting a dinged so it stayed in the safe.
Then I started into the levers and thirty years later - "still updating "

So start reloading , since the next gun might be influenced by being able to reload for a rifle , that you might not be able to buy rounds for.
That in itself , having some thing out of the norm , reloading and taking game with it. What joy!

Get into all of this and your hooked in for a life time.

Then there is that MARLIN fever that so many shooters get .

That is something some one else should warn you about.Once that sets in your done for life.

Happy

beemanbeme · « **Reply #16 on:** May 30, 2005, 04:05:32 PM »

Go with a 7-08 and a 2x7x38 or 3x9x40 scope. It may be the last rifle you buy. Diverse bullet weights and types can be tailored for varmints to elk (forget the great bears). Accurate, light and quick. 'nuff said.

Eddie in Delta · « **Reply #17 on:** May 30, 2005, 04:31:01 PM »

Well Goose, I just graduated high school last week, so I know where you're coming from. If I was in your situation, I'd get a fun gun like an AR-15 or a heavy-barreled target gun. Hunting guns are good, but around here (central Utah) most of what I shoot is rabbits. Lots of them around. I spend about 25 hours walking around looking for rabbits and coyotes to every one I spend big game hunting. Now, if I was into poaching...

Just some more food for thought.

Eddie

Squeeze · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2005, 03:11:24 AM »

Goose,

On the caliber choice, given the .25 WSSM, the .25-06 Rem, and
the .257 Weatherby, I would choose the .25-06. Why? Cheaper
ammo, and it sits squarely in the middle of what these 3
cartridges can do velocity wise.

On the rifle choice, I own several Browning firearms, and several
Tikka rifles. Given my experience with both, I would buy a
Tikka.

Now a bit on the Weatherby Vanguard. I also own a Howa 1500,
which comes from the same production lines, as the Weatherby
Vanguards. They are nice rifles, to be sure, and mine is sub-MOA
accurate with it's favorite handloads. Given a good deal, I would
not think twice about buying another Howa 1500, or a Weatherby
Vanguard, but put side by side with my Tikkas, their fit and finish
are not quite up to the Tikkas. The Tikkas also have an excellent
trigger, and a silky smooth bolt action.

Given your original question, I would be saving for the Tikka,
in 25-06 Rem. I have a Tikka M695(SS/Lam), in .25-06 Rem. and
by far it is my most favorite rifle, for targets, varmints, and deer.

But with that said, I do believe there is some merit to the
suggestion to purchase an AR-15. My youngest son, has
a Remington ADL, in .270 Win, and although he likes that
rifle, and shoots it well, he really likes his Draganov stocked
SKS rifle, or my AR-15 carbine, when it comes to having
fun with firearms. Both are cheap to feed, and fun to shoot.
The AR-15 also is my coyote rifle, so it can do double duty
as a plinker/target shooter, and a predator/varmint rifle.

Either small bore would be a great addition to the battery.

Squeeze

Handwerk · « **Reply #19 on:** June 05, 2005, 07:31:03 AM »

I'd cast a strong vote for the tikka, Have bought 3 of them after looking at all the other brands, best rifle for the money. Since you can load the 30'06 up for bigger game; I too would suggest the 7mm-08. I got one for my son, an ideal round out to 300 yds and minimal recoil. It is and awesome set-up; I put a leupold 2x7x33 on it and it is a joy for my son to shoot.

Buckfever · « **Reply #20 on:** June 07, 2005, 03:17:41 AM »

I have (3) tikka's .223, .308. and my favorite walking deer rifle a 6.5-55 Hunter. All are for a specific purpose. The .223 is for plinking and varmints. The 6.5-55 is for walk and stalk, very light and a 140gr Nosler lays they down, and the .308 with 180gr Noslers is a great treestand gun. Your 30-06 would seem to cover the top end of your needs, maybe you can find one gun for the bottom. The suggestion to look at a 7mm-08 sounds very reasonable to load down to varmints and 140's for deer.

Goose I love your enthusiam for our sport but I have to say there is always competition between more guns and accessories and the money to hunt. If you can find one other gun to fit your sub-30-06 needs maybe you can get it done until you get to making more money. My nephew pick-up a Howa on sale and it seems to really shoot for the money. These are all just suggestions. Buckfever

PEPAW · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2005, 05:38:21 AM »

If I was in your shoes, and we all were once, I would grab one of those new Savage/Stevens 200's. And a Bushnell or lower-end Leupold. I have read nothing but good reviews for less than $300.

Depending upon what you will be hunting most, I would probably buy a .243 or 7-08. Everyone enjoys shooting their .243! Great for targets, coyotes, and for some of us, deer and pigs.

pepaw

goose7856 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 07, 2005, 11:28:22 AM »

what is everyone's opinion on Kimber's??

I went to the gun store today, and was trying to decide......i looked at Rugers, Brownings, Tikkas, Some sig----(really expensive gun - like $1700?!), and a Kimber.

I think it was a Kimber Model 84? The price was $899.

It was extremely light, had nice checkering, and seemed like the best out of all the ones I looked at. (It also had the best wood out of the ones I saw!!)

The tikka really in all honesty didnt impress me that much......the wood was plain ugly and the checkering was nothing compared to the Kimber....

The bolt on the Sig---- was by far the best out of the ones I saw, but out of the price range. The Tikka and Browning were just about the same (bolt-wise).

Maybe I just saw some raw-end-of-the-stick stocks, but even on the Medallion, which I expected to really impress me, it was still a plain walnut.

Now I think I saw a White Gold Medallion, and it had a B E A Utiful curly stock....but it has the stainless barrel that I dont want.

The Rugers are too heavy, and Ive heard their have sometimes been accuracy problems.

Im really leaning towards the Kimber now, I dont have a real reason, but it felt nice, but also cost more.....what are the opinions on it?!

TIA

victorcharlie · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2005, 03:32:59 PM »

Personally, I think the kimber is the best choice of any rifle you've mentioned yet.......

stork · « **Reply #24 on:** June 07, 2005, 04:29:56 PM »

Well the kimber is probably the highest quality rifle you can afford, but it also cost enough that you might not be able to buy anything else like a nice scope or ammo. The browning sounds like the best rifle. Keep looking and when you find one with a good looking stock buy it. The buy a good scope. And then if you have money buy reloading equipment.

If i was you though i would buy a Savage model 14 http://www.savagearms.com/14u.htm

Then i would buy a good scope in the 400-600 dollar range

I would also buy reloading equipment and reload and shoot all the time.

I am 16 and if i could afford another gun i wouldn't have time to shoot it or reload for it. IF you have the money i strongly recomend reloading. It will enable you to shoot more often and more accuratly.

RaySendero · « **Reply #25 on:** June 07, 2005, 04:35:35 PM »

Quote from: goose7856

.....

As of now I really dont NEED another gun, but I WANT one. The next gun I want is for deer hunting. Right now I have a Remington 30-06 ADL with a Nikon Buckmaster scope. I havent missed yet, and nothing is wrong with the gun, I am just looking for another rifle.

.....

Goose,

I know this wasn't one of your options... but how about a 22LR?

Your really have most all your big game hunting covered with the 06.

How about a Ruger 10/22 - Its great fun, inexpensive to shoot and will cover all your small game hunting that the 06 won't. If its bolt actions you like, take a look at the CZ model 452s - They are winning more squirel rifle and silhouette matchs at our range than any others combined!

Slamfire · « **Reply #26 on:** June 07, 2005, 06:14:49 PM »

I'd shop around and see if I couldn't find a good bolt action chambered for .257 Roberts. Can be handloaded, when you begin, to nearly equal the .25.06 and all those other cartridges mentioned are trumped by your .30-06.

Meanwhile you've chosen the best reason for gettin' a new rifle, you'll do ok. :lol:

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #27 on:** June 07, 2005, 06:17:18 PM »

Goose

Let me make a couple of suggestions.

First, since youve decided reduced meat damage isnt all that important as a criteria, Ill gloss over the obvious solution to that problem a heavier bullet at slower speeds, perhaps coupled with a controlled-expansion bullet. If you want to eat right up to the hole, get a .45-70 and use a 350-400g hardcast at around 1800fps.

Second, dont worry about the rifle of your life there will be time for that later and if there isnt it wont much matter. Since your funds are limited, maximize your shooting. In my experience a gun at the range is a lot more fun than one back home. Kind of reminds me of when I was in the Air Force down in Texas and had a nice 1967 Pontiac GTO convertible sitting out in the parking lot. It sat there most of the time because I didnt have money for gas even though it was under $0.25 a gallon.

With your intended budget in mind, let me suggest the route I would take to maximize my shooting opportunities...

My selection of a rifle would depend on a number of variables including the cartridge, condition, manufacturer and model and cost. Although I can afford any rifle I choose (well, almost any rifle), well over half of the center-fire rifles I own were acquired used. Without exception these rifles are very good looking and excellent shooters and the costs were well below the cost of new. So used would certainly be an option. As to cartridge selection I would be somewhat flexible. A little over a year ago I went was on my way to buy a Ruger .25-06 when I literally stumbled into a person selling a like-new Ruger .257 Roberts with a Leupold scope mounted on it. I negotiated a bargain price and brought the .257 Roberts home. It has been one of my favorites ever since. (Not a cartridge I would recommend for a non-reloader, though.) If used didnt work out I would select a rifle that left me some budget to work with for other things like a scope and possibly reloading equipment. There are many nice rifles out there like Kimbers and Coopers, but rifles like that wont leave you much of your shooting budget, if any.

As to a scope, I have several that I like a lot. The Simmons Aetec 3x9x44 that graces my 7mm Mag is not a showcase scope but it works very, very well. My hunting buddy has one on his 7mm Mag, too. A clear, bright, reliable and very functional scope. A Burris Fullfield II 3x9 with a Ballistic Plex reticle graces the .300 Win Mag, another clear, bright, reliable and very functional scope. In my limited experience with the Ballistic Plex reticle I have been extremely pleased as I backed out to 300 yards and beyond. My favorite, though, is a used Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14 I picked up a few weeks ago for the .257 Roberts. Right now I own 5 Leupold scopes and the only one that was purchased new is the VX-II 2-7x33 that sits atop my Marlin .45-70. Once again the point is dont discount the value of used equipment much of it is as good as new and may be better than some of the alternatives even if the alternatives are new.

If you really want to maximize your shooting opportunity, get into reloading. Where a box of standard factory ammo might run $20-$25, I can shoot the equivalent of super-premium ammo for the same price. Or I can shoot super-economy ammo but shoot a lot more for the same dollars. Take my .45-70 for example. I can build plinker hardcast loads for around $2.50 a box or shoot North Fork bonded bullets for hunting for around $24 a box. The North Forks would run around $50 a box in factory ammo if you could find them. Plinker loads for my .257 Roberts and 7mm Rem Mag are under $7 a box for reloads and would be even cheaper if I would switch the bullets I use. Barnes TSX loads for the .257 are under $12 for reloads and I can shoot Barnes XLCs in the 7mm Rem Mag for under $14 a box. These loads could easily cost double that in factory offerings.

What could you do with $1500? Buy a new Ruger/Savage/Remington/Winchester, a new Leupold scope, and reloading equipment including a chronograph, and have lots of money left over. You could buy some of the items used and have even more money left over. The money left over could go for a fun gun like a .22 or a Marlin .30-30. Or you could buy the rifle of you life and let it sit idle because you cant afford to feed it.

Your choice, no wrong answers.

goose7856 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 07, 2005, 07:13:53 PM »

Great explanation Coyote Hunter.

I really want to learn to reload, but in all seriousness, im a little scared to. I dont want to shoot one of my reloaded bullets and it be "messed up", and i kill myself :shock: .

Im not sure how much it cost to get all the goods I would need to reload, but im guessing around $300 for a starter type kit?

Another thing is that there are no close places to shoot :? . I have to travel about 45 min just to go to a place to shoot, and it is only open on certain days (like tues. and thurs. on the 2nd week of the month?!)

So most of my shooting is just to sight in or w/e and thats about 15 shots each pre-season (I know i would like to shoot more but i cant).

I can drive now, so i may be able to travel to shoot, but my shooting is limited, so im not sure how useful reloading is in the immediate future?!

Right now if I get the Kimber, it would cost $900 + $350 + $30 + $40 = $1320!!

(Thats for the gun, scope, rings, and ammo.)

Oh and BTW, I have the .22 issue covered.....i bought a 17 HMR this Christmas, so that keep the small game covered.

Thanx for all the advice- Keep the opininons rollin'

TIA!!

PEPAW · « **Reply #29 on:** June 08, 2005, 02:06:21 AM »

I understand wanting a pretty rifle. In that case, the Stevens 200 I suggested would be out of the race. But it is the kind of rifle you could keep your whole life and depend on it. Which is beautiful to me. :lol:
My hunting partner still hunts with his first rifle, an "ugly" Savage, and he never has to adjust the scope season to season.

pepaw