Remington or Winchester?

[vanbuzen9]

Hi all,

I was wondering what rifle would be the best buy.  I am planning on getting a rifle soon, and I am stuck on wich one.  I have narrowed it down to a Winchester M.70 Classic featherweight, or a Remington M.700 BDL-DM. Any one who has used both of these rifles, please comment on the pros/cons of each.  Of course, I am looking at only Walnut stock models in 30-06. Primary use will be deer/pig hunting and target shooting.

thanks,
Preston

[PA-Joe]

Both are good. Why did you rule out a Savage? The main diff between the rem and win is the safety. The Wins have a three position safety where in the middle setting you can unbolt the gun with the safety on.

[Dave in WV]

The Win. M70 has the best factory trigger around, definitely better than the Rem. 700. I've heard complaints about the 700's DM being noisy when carried and the M70 has a hinged floor plate that can't be forgotten and left behind. If the choice was between a Rem. 700 or a M70 featherweight I'd look at the 700 CDL or mountain rifle. Both are good looking rifles. The BDL rifles are butt ugly to me with their high gloss finish and white line spacers.

[jhm]

Van :  If those are your 2 choices I would recomend the Remington over the other one, look at the rifles that the police use they are rem, ask most custom gun makers which action is the best and most used it will be a Remington over the other one, and BTW the drop mag, well I would go with a BDL instead myself. enjoy    JIM

[SuperstitionCoues]

Ya know, the problem with getting other peoples opinions is that ... everyone is right!  Seriously, I can't argue with anything anyone has said as +'s or -'s for Win, Rem, or Savage.

Something that I haven't seen yet though, is this.  Balance.  IMHO, the balance of the Win Featherweight is above that of the Rem or Savage.  The weight may not be much different, but how they have distributed the weight is.   Plus, I like the lines and fluidness of the stock better than Rem's glossy finish.  I too, would consider the CDL before the BDL, but I would also opt for the Featherweight.  I have yet to have a Winchester that doesn't carry nicely for a day in the field, or one that consistently won't put a bullet where I need it. My recommendation is for the Featherweight.

[Val]

Anyone of those rifles would be a good purchase. Determine which one feels the best and gives you the best fit. The Savage is the least costly and has the accu trigger which is a plus but it has a cheapo synthetic stock which, when replaced, will wipe out the price advantage. The Savage is becoming legendary for their out of the box accuracy.

[Lawdog]

Preston,

Do yourself a BIG favor and forget Remington.  I can give you SIX good reasons why NOT to buy NEW Remington rifles,

1.]  hideous safety

2.]  flimsy extractors

3.]  brazed on bolt handle

4.]  declining quality control

5.]  non existent customer service

6.]  a trigger group made from stamped metal

Go with the Winchester unless you want an out of the box accurate rifle then got with a Savage if the price is of any concern.  If not, then look at Sako/Tikka or Weatherby/Vanguard.  Lawdog
 

[Handwerk]

well lawdog, although My last three rifles have been tikkas (which I'm very happy with) I can't say too much bad about remy. I've had great customer service, I own a 22 year old adl 7mm -mag without a trouble, and the trigger atleast is adjustable. They By far are not perfect but I sure couldn't come up with 6 reasons not to but one. I own many remy's and would say For certain guns, I would buy again.

[Jimi]

When I saw the heading of this thread I assumed someone was trolling for a fight (so to speak), but it seems like a legitimate question.

I concur with the Lawdog. My gripes about the Remington are three-fold:

1) The safety isn't safe. I have seen them fail in the field, and I have personally forced them to fail in testing. I have said before, I don't even want to hunt with someone hunting with a M700. That is how strongly I feel about the safety;

2) The bolts tend to be sloppy and the push-feed is easy to jam if you short stroke a round. If you have a big pig coming down on you because your first shot didn't kill it, you'd better not get excited and jam that sucker;

3) The Remington can be touchy if it is dirty. A bit of dust in the action and you're in trouble. Not usually an issue in northern states, but it is if you ever plan to hunt in drier climes.

And of course the Model 70 excels in these areas. The best safety in the business; Controlled round feeding; Tough as nails dependability.

I also liked Superstition's comment about balance... but then again, I'm obviously a sucker for the M70.

Having been on several safaris I couldn't help but notice that many PH's carry Model 70's. CZ's and various double rifles are also popular. I've never met a one that carried a M700. I'm sure you could find one, but it would be an exception.

As for police use... I'm confident there are many departments that use M700s for sniper rifles, but they tend to be customized and are normally used for a single shot. Unless you're talking about police assault rifles, which definitely are not M700s. The Agency and Special Forces do not tend to rely on M700s... nor M70s, for that matter.

[Yukon Jack]

Preston,

Do yourself a BIG favor and forget Remington.  I can give you SIX good reasons why NOT to buy NEW Remington rifles,

1.]  hideous safety

2.]  flimsy extractors

3.]  brazed on bolt handle

4.]  declining quality control

5.]  non existent customer service

6.]  a trigger group made from stamped metal

  Lawdog
 

A++ post.  Couldn't have said it better.

[while99]

I've owned somewhere between 10-12 Model 700 Remingtons and about that many Model 70 Winchesters.  For out-of-the-box accuracy, I think the Remington is the more accurate of the two.  The Remington has a slightly heavier barrel contour which I think helps.  Remington also includes iron sites on most of their models.  For a guy who takes the belt-and-suspenders approach to life, this is of some importance.
Both rifles have triggers that are easily adjusted for weight-of-pull and over-travel.  The Remington's trigger is easily adjusted for sear engagement but with a Winchester Model 70, you had better be a fair hand with a stone to adjust sear engagement.
I like the safety, extraction, and ejection better on a Model 70 Winchester.
If you are just going to punch paper or hunt animals that don't bite back, I think either rifle will work.  I'd much prefer the Winchester's controlled-feed action for dangerous game.  Also, the bolt on a Model 70 is easily stripped in the field for cleaning and oiling.
All that being said, the only rifles I've ever had to send back to the manufacturer for repair are Winchester Model 70s.  I had to send 3 back over the last 25 years.  I've owned Remington 700s since 1967 and I've never had to send one back.

[old06]

Do yourself a BIG favor and forget Remington. I can give you SIX good reasons why NOT to buy NEW Remington rifles,

1.] hideous safety

2.] flimsy extractors

3.] brazed on bolt handle

4.] declining quality control

5.] non existent customer service

6.] a trigger group made from stamped metal

Lawdog
 Lawdog hit all the hi and low points with the Remington and I have to say that most are spot on and a few may be iffy. There so call "recall" on the safety issue is a straight up joke!! And what about the Savage great rifle at a fair price. But I'll vote for Winchester if I was to pick.

[glock29]

I totally agree with the posting from Lawdog about why NOT to buy the Rem 700.

Go with the Winchester 70 (CONTROLLED round feed ONLY).

Even for non-dangerous game, I will not even consider bolt action designs that are push feed.

That is in fact what kept me from buying a great value for the money Weatherby vanguard....the push feed....but where else can you get a 300 Wby Mag new fro around $425 ?

I find the safety on the Rem Model 700 to be a hideous abomination compared to the Win 70.

How about a CZ550 ?

[Redhawk1]

Lawdog nailed that one on the head. Go with the Winchester or consider a Tikka or Sako.  

[Warthog]

I've got to agree with Lawdog about the Remingtons.  The last two I bought will probably be the last two I buy.  The Model 7 I bought rattled in the stock from day one and, even after I did a lot of work on it, shot solid 10" groups.  I bought a 700 Classic in .300 Savage because of a nostalgia over the cartridge.  After I got the rifle home and really had a chance to tear it down and go over it, I realized the fit and finish were the poorest I've ever had.  The stock had a knot in it just forward of the lug and was not completely finished.  The barrel channel wasn't even straight.  The trigger group was loose in the receiver and the bolt was binding.  I figured a good cleaning and polishing would help the bolt.  I figured wrong.  Okay, anyone can have a bad QA day, so my dealer sent the rifle back to Remington.  They sent it back to me just as it was and told me they found nothing wrong with it.  Fortunately my dealer took it back and fought the battle with Remington.  My last two Winchesters were exactly the opposite.  I bought a Model 70 Classic Laminate and the only thing I had to do to it to get great grouping was adjust the trigger.  Ditto for the Super Shadow.  I thought that one would be a real chore to make group decently.  Again, I thought wrong.  Good luck on whatever you buy.

[High Brass]

If you are dead set on the two mentioned I think that I would favor the Winchester 70 over the Remington 700.  However, either one will do the job so it's a matter of personal tastes.  Handle each one thoroughly and decide for yourself.  Whichever one you decide on, you "should" be able to get satisfactory accuracy with little trouble.  

Personally, I think more of Savage bolt actions than MOST Remington rifles and for the money vs. what you get, I don't think you can beat Ruger M77 mkIIs.  I have a Savage and Ruger bolt gun and I love them both.  I've handled and even used a M700 Remmy but never really warmed up to it.  The only thing that stood out on the M700 was how well it fit me.  I believe that Remmy's have a bit shorter length of pull(or at least they used to) and that makes  a difference.  Short of that, it didn't blow up my skirt.  

You'll have to decide what's important to you.  Do you want to buy a rifle as is and not have to fool with it?  If so then I would reccomend a Savage.  Do you care about barrel length(22 vs 24 inches)?   Walnut?  Laminated?  Blued?  Stainless?  Scope mounting options?  Weight?  These are the things that only you can figure on, handle them and let your gut decide.  Good luck.

[jhm]

It really stuns me that so many grown up noligeble men TAKE DELIVERY of such bad guns, if they are hideous, or have bad barrel channels, rattle, bolts binding, unfinished stocks, etc. etc. why do you go ahead and take delivery, I believe I would have just left them there.  I believe there is a little stretching of the truth going on with some of the descriptions of some of these guns.    JIM

[Lawdog]

It really stuns me that so many grown up noligeble men TAKE DELIVERY of such bad guns, if they are hideous, or have bad barrel channels, rattle, bolts binding, unfinished stocks, etc. etc. why do you go ahead and take delivery, I believe I would have just left them there.  I believe there is a little stretching of the truth going on with some of the descriptions of some of these guns.    JIM

Jim,

How many sporting goods stores will let you dissemble a rifle BEFORE you purchase it?  Also how many sporting goods stores have indoor ranges so you can test fire a rifle BEFORE you buy?  Can you tell me the names and addresses of these stores?  Lawdog
 

[Warthog]

Awww, c'mon Lawdog.  Don't you carry your gunsmith tools with you to take apart all the guns while you're shopping?

[Lawdog]

Awww, c'mon Lawdog.  Don't you carry your gunsmith tools with you to take apart all the guns while you're shopping?

All the time.   :-D  :-D   I just haven't found a store yet that would let me take apart a rifle or shoot it before I bought it(a NEW rifle that is).  Lawdog
 

[jhm]

You dont have to take a rifle apart to see some of the things that have been described, I have OWNED 2 retail gunshops and sold hundreds of rifles mostly Remington and they will outsell, outshoot most rifles out there now the Savage has come a long way over the years and at present dont own one my son does but he is entitled to make his own mistakes in life, but back to the Remington if they were as some have described they have no one to blame for their mistakes, all shops will let you give a rifle a real good look over and I believe some will let you open the bolt and close it, some people will try to do their own customizing and screw things up and blame it on the manufacturer, thats what GUNSMITHS are for.  Well enough of this buy whatever you like but look it over b-4 you sign on the doted line.    JIM

[TennesseeNuc]

vanbuzen,
Unlike most of the posters here, I have had very good experiences with Remington rifles.  They were all good shooters with good fit and finish.  Can't comment on their service dept. because I've never had to use it.
Every Remington that I own, or have owned, shot better than any Winchester that I have ever owned.
This is just my personal experience.
Best,
TnNuc

[Ramrod]

I see the basic actions on these guns as almost an apples and oranges comparison. The Remington action is inherantly more accurate due to it's basic design. But, it is less tolerant of mis-use and dirt. The Winchester Classic action, on the other hand, is a pretty close copy of the Mauser '98, a military weapon first and foremost. This design puts absolute reliability under field conditions ahead of all other criteria, including absolute accuracy and manufacturing cost. Cost is why Winchester quit making it in 1964 and went to push feeds, until advances in CNC machinery made it economically feasable again.
For me the Remingtons are better target and varmint rifles, and the Winchester (and the Mauser) better big game guns.

[1longshot]

I currently own 3 remington 700 rifles and 1 model 7:

A .223, that is a great shooter very smooth bolt and an unsafe trigger when adjusted to around 1 1/2 pound.  This one is the VSSF model

A .308 VSSF, Very accurate.  Just shot .25 inch group last week with 125 grain Speer TNT's, but the firing pin will fall if taken off safety upside down.  The sear won't engage unless the gun is horizontal and right side up.  When the action was machined it looks as though a piece of the bit chipped off and there is a torn metal gouge inside the right side of the bolt race way.  I can't believe it passed QA. I sent it back to Remington because the firing pin constantly strikes very off center on the primer.  Remington sent it back to me saying there was nothing wrong with it.

A 308 700 sporter made pre 1982, No trigger problems or safety problems with this one.
Very accurate.

Stainless model 7 in .243 Winchester.  Shoots 5/8 inch groups all day with 70 grain speer TNT's  Trigger is shotty.  I purchased this one new last year.

So why with all of these problems do I keep and continue to buy Remies?

1. I know that I made my guns unsafe to shoot by adjusting the lawyer triggers from 6-8 lbs to between 1.5 -2.5 lbs.  

2. I know how to operate them safely and will NOT let anyone else shoot them unless I am right there watching them.

3.  I like the function and operation of them and I always have.

4. Every one I have ever shot was accurate.

5. The mechanics are tighter and stronger than a savage in my opinion

6. From what I have heard and read they are more accurate than Winchesters.

7.  I think they look better than Winchesters.

  With this in mind I think Remington should redesign there triggers and that would drastically improve their reputation.  I also feel quality control is going down with them..

Maybe I will buy a Winchester next time.

The only good thing Remington did? was replace my 870 shotgun barrel with a new one because the choke was not concentric with the bore.

[lilabner]

If I wanted a 700, I would hunt around for an 80s vintage rifle in good shape. They were the most accurate rifles at that time and much better than the current crop. Forced to pick either a new Remington or new Winchester, I'd buy Winchester. Actually, I prefer Ruger and Savage to either of them.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

     Well it seems most of the posters do not like the new Remingtons, well good for them. It also seems by one or two other posters that everyone else but them is wrong, and most of those defending Remingtons are citing older models as proof.

     Let me make this clear I personally DO NOT OWN ANY REMINGTON RIFLES and the only ones I would consider are the old models and I mean old like the model 30. The 700 I will not touch with a barge pole!

    Out of all my shooting friends I know one who brought and has a Remington 700 which is a VSS in .223 and he brought that about 12 years ago so is not relevent to todays garbage produced.

   Even my hunting buddy in Missouri got rid of the two New Remingtons he brought a couple of years ago, a model 700 and a model 7. Even after returning them to Remington, he was also told that there was nothing wrong with them and  grouping inside 4" at 100 yards was acceptable. Well he does not think so and is used to groups well under an inch and is an excellent shot shooting competition High Power at 600 yards and bench rest at 50, 100 and 600 yards. He wrote Remington informing them that their product was rubbish and he would never buy another one of their products again.

    All the time folks keep stumping up the cash for them Remington will continue to produce te same mediocre garbage for them. Winchester learnt the hard way back in 1964 when they made the New super model 70, it was cheap and looked it too. It lost them customers in droves, now it also seems that the 1960's customers were more descerning that todays.

     Oh have Winchester fixed that dodgy plastic bedding stuff they were using? or is it still the same?

[Maine Woods]

I just went through this myself. I went to a large retailer ( good one too!) and handled every make. The field of possibles went down very quickly. In the end I purchased a model 70 supergrade. A big factor for me was the extractor! plus easy to adjust trigger ( as is clean crisp wee bit heavy) I sadly can not yet report on accuracy as bases and rings are one the way. I will report and post pictures (if I can :oops: ) It is a handsome rifle!

[jakes10mm]

I have not owned a Remington...yet, but have owned two Winchester and both are incredible shooters.  The first, a 70 LA Classic Stainless in 30-06, would consistently print 3/4" groups at 100yards (I'm not the most experienced rifle shooter!).  My current Winchester, a 70SA Heavy Varmint in 243, is printing around 1/2" at 100yards.  I have worked up some more test loads in 243.  I'm expecting this rifle to shoot tighter groups when I find the right load combo.  

I love the look and feel of the Remington 700 VLS and will probably own one someday.  I also like the Savage rifles, but don't currently own any of theirs either.  Savage's barrel design does add a degree of flexibility in calibers...which could be a very interesting bonus to their rifles.

[ought6]

I'd definitely go with the Winchester as opposed to the Remington.  HOWEVER  :eek: I would not get the featherweight!!  As the pencil thin barrel warms up (after 2 or 3 shots), the groups go to pot and it starts shotgunning them.  I'd go with a M 70 with a standard barrel.  Can't go wrong there!!   :-)

[dicaela]

I've got a Remington 700 ADL in .270 Win at home. It shoots straight, never gives me any problems, and although its not as important, it looks pretty nice too. That fills all of my requirements for a rifle.