Author Topic: Do you think this would make a good black bear rifle ??? (Read 4868 times)

jvs · « **Reply #30 on:** February 07, 2005, 10:30:15 PM »

Quote from: BackCountry

Also a little known fact, more people are killed by black bears than by grizzly's

I sure would like to see proof of that claim. The circumstances also.

msorenso · « **Reply #31 on:** February 08, 2005, 02:28:51 AM »

New York Hunter and to the rest GBO,
AAAHHHH! Sorry about giving the wrong information about the 350 rem mag. For some reason I thought it was a blown out 30-06. Bacically I though it was a beefed up Whelen.. Anyway thanks for correcting me.

msorenso · « **Reply #32 on:** February 08, 2005, 02:52:59 AM »

One more thing
Don dick ,
How did you like the 300 rum? Or not?

Don Dick · « **Reply #33 on:** February 08, 2005, 01:08:58 PM »

Deer in the states I have hunted in don`t climb up trees, even when I shoot at them. Read an article the other day that said more people were
hurt by deer then bears. Maybe they take car accidents with deer into
consideration I am not sure.

As to the 300 Remington Ultra mag she was a honey but she was too heavy to pack. Very accurate 200 Plus yard rifle. Not to bad on the bench, but I won`t say it does not recoil. Rifle recoil never seem to bother me. It those dag blam 3 1/2 inch turkey loads I have trouble with.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #34 on:** February 08, 2005, 01:11:29 PM »

Boy I sure hope someone else post's something like this. The B.S. is about 6' deep in places. But I gotta know, did Ruger really make that rifle?

If so, I am in aw that they've managed to sell any. Ah, the power of advertising!

NYH1 · « **Reply #35 on:** February 09, 2005, 10:20:50 AM »

Quote from: Don Fischer

But I gotta know, did Ruger really make that rifle? If so, I am in aw that they've managed to sell any. Ah, the power of advertising!

Don Fischer, I already answered that, yes they are really making it. I have their 2005 catalogue and its in it!

Heres their web sight check it out for yourself! www.ruger-firearms.com

Ramrod · « **Reply #36 on:** February 09, 2005, 12:40:58 PM »

I'll bet they sell a few. Along time ago a wise man said "No one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

Lawdog · « **Reply #37 on:** February 09, 2005, 01:29:52 PM »

Quote from: half_inch_group

Quote from: New York Hunter
One thing I have read about bears is that IF and I mean IF you get attacked by a brown, grizzly or kodiak bear they usually don't try and eat you right there. If you try to play dead and the bear thinks you are they'll usually leave you and come back later. Black bear on the other hand will try and eat you right from the beginning. Meaning that if you play dead your just easier for them to kill. I also read that black bears have been known to stalk a human for the sole purpose of eating them as will the brown, grizzle and kodiak bears. There was this guy on TV that is a expert on bear attacks and he said black bear are just as dangerous if not more so then other bears. I can't think of his name right now, but i'll try to find it.

That is counter to everything I have ever heard or read about Black Bear. While it would not be wise to mess with a female and cubs or an injured Bear, the Black Bear is probably known as the most docile of all Bears. My own experience was with a 500+ pound Male. He growled and grunted, turned and ran away. Even a female with two cubs took to the trees at the sight of a human. I have not hunted Bears, but I have had 'contact' with them in the wild. The Black Bear in these parts do not like confrontation with humans. While there are newspaper stories of Black Bears breaking into houses and cabins, it usually arises from people thinking it's "Cute" to feed Bears. It isn't so 'cute' when the house or cabin is locked up for the weekend and the Bear wants some food though. They can find the refridgerator just fine.

Trying to compare the temperment of a Black Bear to a Brown or Grizz is hard to do. They aren't even close.

Black Bear attacks used to be a rare occasion but 57 people have been killed by black bears in the U.S. since they started keeping records back in the late 1950s. But over the last 10 years Black Bear attacks have killed an average of two people a year. Most all of these attacks were of a predatory nature. In other words the bears stalked and killed for food. Every year there are more people attacked by Black Bears than Grizzly/Brown Bears. It is a well known fact that if attacked by a Grizzly/Brown Bear you can play dead and most cases live to tell the tale. A Black Bear attack your best chances are to fight back. In the 40+ years I have been hunting bears(my favorite game to hunt) I have learned one thing, Dont Trust Black Bears. Just about the time you figure they will run away, one doesnt. Unlike many other game species Black Bear populations are on the rise and with man infringing on their terrain you are going to hear of more bear/man confrontations. Lawdog

Spyro Andes · « **Reply #38 on:** February 09, 2005, 03:00:44 PM »

Quote from: New York Hunter

Do you think this would make a good black bear rifle

Personally, I think the handiness of that rifle would be a plus for a stand hunter and it definitely has more than enough power. That Ruger Compact in 300 WSM isn't my cup of tea but it would get the job done.

So before I offer my opinion of a stand blackie rifle, lets just say that the rifle in question would get the job done.

I take a group of 12 to Alberta for Black Bears every year. We have several guys that go every year but, every year, we have a couple of new guys in the group.

For the most part, shots are between 10-30 yards with an extreme of 125 yards.

The gun I recommend the most is a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 w/ a middle of the road load. With kids, they will usually shoot the Remington "safe for all guns" load.

Normally, I just tell them to shoot it as it is out of the box or put a nicer set of sights on the rifle.

So guys have to scope, I recommend a scope with a low power setting of 1x or 1.5x.

Quote from: New York Hunter

How much will the 16 1/2 inch barrel hurt the performance

I have to figure that you are stand hunting, how long of a shot do you plan on taking?

Honestly, the bullet is probably in a better performance impact speed, due to velocity loss because of the extremely short barrell, for the close range shots.

Quote from: Lawdog

I have never seen a Black Bear drop at the shot and stay put unless it was hit in the head or neck.

In less than 7 days, I had 3 canadian black bears (300-500lbs) in a row each drop to a single shot , out to ~75 yards, to a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 shooting 400gr Speer using full house loads. All shots were roughly broadside or slightly quartering away and into the chest cavity. None of the bullets exited. All of the bullets fragmented completely. Truama to the vitals of every bear was massive.

Despite the killing performance, each bullet "failed" as far as I am concerned and I have never loaded them again.

AkRvrrat · « **Reply #39 on:** February 09, 2005, 03:32:09 PM »

hey Newyorker that Ruger is something of a curiosity more than anything. I or we here love leveractions, the ole tried and true .30-30 is tough to beat. Them guns don't leave your shoulder till you're bear is down - I mean shoot and shoot fast and hard! Darn bears and I do not care what model of tooth and nails is in front of you - take em out. For a brush gun if I may call em I too favor my Marlin .45-70, tough to beat. Once you start something - you finish it if you're not inclined leave them alone. Those hard cast with a wide meplat are the best - my opinion and .02cents

Sigma · « **Reply #40 on:** February 09, 2005, 05:10:59 PM »

Like some of the other replies - stay away from the short barrels, especially in a caliber like 300WSM! The short/fat cartridge load is likely to burn quicker but you will still don't gain much. Why would you want to sacrifice increased accuracy and velocity for a barrel which is a few inches shorter with greatly increased muzzle flash and ear-splitting noise? If you must have a WSM, I would go with a 24 inch or better barrel. You'll be happier in the long run.

Regards

jvs · « **Reply #41 on:** February 09, 2005, 09:46:56 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Dont Trust Black Bears. Just about the time you figure they will run away, one doesnt. Unlike many other game species Black Bear populations are on the rise and with man infringing on their terrain you are going to hear of more bear/man confrontations. Lawdog

On this part I agree with you 100%. No one should 'trust' a wild animal under any circumstances. Never confuse a Black Bear in the wild with Gentle Ben. And the loss of habitat, in some places, also is cause for concern. One of the biggest problems is people feeding Bears. Once a Bear looses the fear of humans because somebody in the neighborhood is feeding them, tragedy can be hours away. A few years ago, during a long/hot drought, a Black Bear would come down out of the hills to swim in in-ground swimming pools at night, usually on garbage night. He was trapped and moved after being labeled a nuisance Bear.

Quote from: Lawdog

In other words the bears stalked and killed for food.

If your stats are factual, 57 instances over 45+ years could be true. I would be interested in seeing how many of these attacks were because a Bear initially wanted to eat the Human involved. I can remember one attack in the last five years or so, up in New York State, when a Black Bear snatched up and disappeared with a Baby. So it can happen with rogue Bears. But your chances of being stalked and eaten by a Black Bear when you're hiking through the woods or hunting aren't all that great unless he gets a whiff of your Ham Sandwich and Potato Chips. When they have a mind set to eat, don't put yourself between them and the bag of garbage, the bird feeder or any other food source.

The following link will show you how people in my area live in harmony with the Black Bear.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=473&q=150328

I understand that one of the worst feelings in the world is when you come upon Bear tracks and after you followed them in a long circle for an hour or so you see your footprints and two sets of Bear tracks, all headed in the same direction. :grin:

Don Fischer · « **Reply #42 on:** February 12, 2005, 07:51:43 AM »

I've only killed a few black bears and have lived in bear country quite a bit. The tuffest thing I've found about any carnivore is the human thought process that goes like; "I don't want to be ate". That leads to to many people shooting cartridges they can't handle. I knew a guy from Texas while I lived in Montana that believed his 7mm Rem mag just wouldn't do for a black bear; so he bought a 458 Win mag that he couldn't shoot! Far to many people buy some huge thing they can't shoot for fear of being eaten if they miss. They'ed all be better off with something they could shoot and using a PROPER bullet. You see, if you can't get a bullet into the bear where it can destroy vital organs, it won't kill it! The bears I've killed have had a thick layer of fat to penetrate befor getting inside. Once inside, good bullet's properly placed killl!!!!!

Now if you happen to be one of those who use preimum bullet's and trust the bullet construction to make up for lack of weight and/or sectional density, you just may be dissapointed. Bullet selection is as or maybe more important than cartridge selection. Yet most disscussions start off discussing the cartridge, eventually comming around to the bullet. Trying to remember in this one. I believe the question was about cartridge, not mentioning loads. In fact I don't believe loads were brought up for quite some time! Come to thine of it, this question was something like "Would this make a good black bear rifle?".

NYH1 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 12, 2005, 09:54:25 AM »

My dad is going to use my 444 Mar. with either Hornady's 265 gr. factory load or Cor-Bon's 280 gr. factory load. I'm going to use my 280 Rem. I'll try Federal's 160 gar. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and see how they shoot. I think that with a good bullet and proper shot placement the 270 Win., 280 Rem. and the 30-06 spar. would really make a good black bear hunting cartridges. The 30-06 may have a slight advantage because there are 180 gar. to 200 gar. factory loads available for the non-hand loader.

The 30-06 having a slightly larger bullet diameter in the "real hunting world" is a non-issue. The 30-06 is .024" of an inch larger then the 280 Rem. and is .031" of an inch larger then the 270 Win. An animal hit with a .308" diameter bullet from an 30-06 isn't going to bleed any more then an animal hit with a .284" diameter bullet from a 280 rem. or even a .277" diameter bullet from a 270 Win. .024" to .031" of an inch isn't going to make any difference. A heavier or a better made bullet can make all the difference in the world. The average piece of note book paper is about .003" of an inch thick. Hold seven or eight pieces together as tight as you can and you'll see it isn't that big after all.

I asked about the Ruger rifle because I figured the 300 WSM has more velocity then the 30-06. And with that short of a barrel the 300 WSM might still have at least as much or more power then the 30-06 and I wouldn't be under powered with such a short rifle. I was thinking out load really.

I already have a 280 Rem. so I'm going to use it. If I was starting from scratch and had to get a rifle I really think I would go with the great granddaddy of then all and get the 30-06. It hasn't been around for a hundred years on accident !!!

I really do appreciate everyones input !!!

Don Fischer · « **Reply #44 on:** February 12, 2005, 10:31:26 AM »

One last thing all you bear hunter's out there,New York Hunter's waving goodbye. When you go, take a copy of "Alaska Bear Tales" by Larry Kaniut-Alaska Northwest Publishing, Anchorage, Alaska. Sleep out under the stars and read a few stories out loud befor everyone turns in. Their true stories and everyone will love you. Actually you could do it on a sage rat hunting trip where your camping out and probally get the same result's. It's been a hoot!!!!!

NYH1 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 12, 2005, 02:18:38 PM »

Quote from: Don Fischer

One last thing all you bear hunter's out there,New York Hunter's waving goodbye.

If thats the impression I gave with the

, I'm sorry, we can talk about bear hunting and rifles, cartridges and anything else for as long as anyone wants !!! :grin: :toast:

kjeff50cal · « **Reply #46 on:** February 12, 2005, 03:35:59 PM »

Finally a gun that rivals my Mosin Nagant M44's muzzle blast :shock: .

kjeff50cal

kenscot · « **Reply #47 on:** February 12, 2005, 04:25:57 PM »

When it comes to big black bears I leave my flat shooting bolt action magnums home and take my marlin guide gun in 45-70 with a 300gr protected point partition loaded 2200 fps not a bear has wlked away from it :grin:

NYH1 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 13, 2005, 05:16:39 AM »

Quote from: kenscot

When it comes to big black bears I leave my flat shooting bolt action magnums home and take my marlin guide gun in 45-70 with a 300gr protected point partition loaded 2200 fps not a bear has wlked away from it :grin:

kenscot, I agree with that too, but I only have one "big bore" a 444 Mar. and my father is going to use that. I could by a new rifle, but I really want to use my 280 Rem. The reason I bought the 280 Rem. was for its "all round" capabilities. I wanted a rifle for long range white-tail deer hunting, black bear hunting (even though the range is very close most of the time, I want to go caribou hunting someday, maybe moose hunting too. If I ever hunt in the "land of the griz" I'll get a lot bigger gun.

My father gave me a Winchester model 88 lever action 308 Win. About 15 years ago his friend used it in Maine to shoot a moose. He shot it once in the lungs and that was it.

The 280 Rem. is more versatile and a tad more powerful then a 308 Win. thats why I bought it.

I'll never get rid of my 308 Win. though, its a h*ll of a deer rifle. Its probably the best "all round deer rifle" I have, I can shoot 10 yards out to 300 yards and it a lever action so I have a fast second shot it needed, all though I've never shot at a deer more then once. I got 2 deer with it so far and it shoots one inch groups all day long too! :-D

BackCountry · « **Reply #49 on:** February 13, 2005, 09:01:26 AM »

New York Hunter,
I use the corbon 280 grain load out of my 444 for bears, it is a great load. The only thing is if you been shooting the standard 240 grain load for this, have your dad practice a little before hand, the corbon load has a bit more recoil to it, something that will just take a little getting used to if you are not recoil sensitive. It is a great gun and a great load. The model 88 you have is a nice gun, wish I had one.

kenscot · « **Reply #50 on:** February 13, 2005, 10:49:40 AM »

New York Hunter,
I see the 280 as being fine for bear especilly with the bullet you plan to use I would have no problem using my 270 with 150's given the opetunity I just got the guide gun as a another excuse for the wife "you know honey I need a bigger gun for bear"

1911crazy · « **Reply #51 on:** February 17, 2005, 07:05:08 AM »

No matter which gun you use its all about making your first shot count. If you don't have a good clean first shot let it go. I like good quick clean kills thats what makes us good hunters.

From 270's on up to 338win mag's there all good guns if you do your part and place your first shot.

Now with using speer bullets I tested my very first reloads years ago with my '06 using 180gr. speer magnum mag tips in wet sand. The bullets came apart and fragmented leaving the jacket like a piece of shrapnel with fine gray powder(lead) infront of it. Now we took the same round blackbear hunting and on a neck shot the speer bullet went in and the jacket/lead did its job by cutting all the arteries in the neck and it sat the bear down right there and it bleed to death on the spot.

I've hunted blackbear with 30-06's, 444 marlins and 338win.mag's and the 338win.mag. just picks them up off all fours and plants them down its basically too much gun but dead is dead thats it. Most guys hunt bear from tree stands and i don't climb(disabled) and i'm no good at runnin so a 338win.mag is my gun of choice when i'm looking at large tracks of 300lb + bears. When selecting a gun pick one you can handle and what i mean is so you can shoot out the ten ring "X" all day at 100yds constantly and master it for your first shot is the one that counts. I can put two bullets thru the same hole at 100yds with my 338win.mag. Don't hit it in the @ss you'll only piss it off. I have found bullets in the back side of bears stopped in the meat and they weren't ours. So some @sshole shot it in the @ss and it ran off lucky for them. Remember a wounded charging bear just doesn't want to wrestle it wants to hurt you bad too so make your first shot count. I remember what my uncle told me when I first went bear hunting the only thing a man can out run is a chicken.
BigBill

BTW; I remember a bear hunting story i was told once about a guy who grabbed 3 rounds of '06 and went out bear hunting. He shot a bear and it charged so he climbed a tree and fired another 2nd round. He stayed in the tree all night with the bear moaning at the bottom and in the morning he fired his 3rd. last round into it and afte rthe moaning stopped he climbed down and ran back to camp.

There are two morals to this real life story or should i say experience;

1.First make sure you have enough ammo with you. I carry 10 to 15 rounds for my rifle and if I carry a handgun I carry 18 more rounds. If your deep in the woods you never know what can happen.

2. Make your first shot count!!!!!!!!! A wounded bear is no joke it can kill you. I'm always careful in the woods in bear country too from other hunters wounded bears too. You never know when you will cross paths with one and it may not be yours. They have come to me to help track them thats how i know!!! I can't stress a good clean quick kill enough.

Zachary · « **Reply #52 on:** February 17, 2005, 08:15:18 AM »

I have never hunted, or shot, a black bear, but I similarly think that it would be more difficult to kill than a whitetail deer. Granted, some animals just seem to hold on to life more than others, but it just seems that black bears require more power (and better placement) to put them down for good.

I say this, mostly in part, because I have seen black bear bones and they seem to be heavier than a deer. As such, I think that it would be logical to believe that a bigger or heavier bullet (all else being equal - like shot placement) would be advantageous on black bear.

Now, we are not talking about the big brown/grizzly bears here, but then again we are not talking about the need for a .375H&H either.

Zachary

Don Fischer · « **Reply #53 on:** February 17, 2005, 01:09:34 PM »

Actually what it take's to kill a black bear, or anything else for that matter, is a bullet of sufficient construction and weight to reach the vitial's and destroy them. The diameter of that bullet is not as critical as you might believe. A good example might be, what would make a better bear load; a 280 Rem using a 175 gr partition bullet or a 300 Weatherby using a 150 gr non-partition? Eh, I'ed take the 280 Rem!

Ramrod · « **Reply #54 on:** February 17, 2005, 01:43:38 PM »

Don Fischer has hit the nail on the head. The bullet kills the critter, not some number on a piece of paper. If the slug doesn't get into the boiler room, it ain't going down. That's why the older hunters favored heavy bullets. The 7x57 Mauser (same bore size as .280 Rem) originally was loaded with a 175 grain bullet. When you read the old accounts of guys taking bears, moose, lions, and even elephant with little guns, remember, they didn't do it with light bullets at high velocity. But that's what many guys do now, and when the bullet fails, they buy a bigger magnum, to launch the same bullet even faster.

Zachary · « **Reply #55 on:** February 17, 2005, 04:34:25 PM »

I certainly agree with both of you - no doubt about it. But another benefit of wider bullets is that they tend to create wider holes and thus cause more blood to flow out so that the animal can drop quicker. No, the difference between a .277" and .308 hole on paper is not huge, although noticeable, but it becomes more noticeable when it mushrooms on game.

There is really no substitue for good shot placement, and a .458 caliber bullet struck in a bear's butt is not going to put him down humanely as a .277 caliber bullet through its lungs, but a wider and heavier bullet is added insurance when your shot placement is a little (and notice that I say a little) off.

Zachary

Baddwuf · « **Reply #56 on:** April 23, 2005, 01:59:21 AM »

I hunt bears in Pa . My group has killed 10 in the last 5 yrs, mostly with 308's, they worked ok but all required more than 1 shot. The only bear I killed with 1 shot was with my 375 H&H, but a 91/2 lbs it's to heavy to be dragging thru the swamps. This year 4 of us had 350 Rem mags, 1 673 one original 600 carbine and 2 custom Montana's with 18" barrels. None of our shots have been over 50 yds with most more like 20yds. One hunter this year went from a 308 to a 450 Marlin and made a 1 shot drop at 20 yds. Any deer rifle will kill a bear but in Pa you are surrounded by other hunters. Any bear that makes it 50 yds, will be shot at by others. The bear killed with the 450 this year was shot at while laying dead on the ground as the hunter walked over to tag it! We like shot barreled light carbines, with low powered scopes and red dot sights. for quick shooting in the brush and swamps. My 350 Montana weighs 61/2 lbs,our largest bear was 570 lbs,308 1 shot thru the head 15 yds.

Buckeye · « **Reply #57 on:** April 23, 2005, 03:58:30 AM »

I really like hunting Black Bears ,over the years I've taken them with several different calibers ,30/30, 12ga. ,35rem.,303 Brit. , 30.06, 6.5 X55, 356win.,45/70 Only had to use one follow-up shot and that was only a solid 300lb. Bb ,shot with a 30.06 useing 180gr. bullet ,it was more my fault than the caliber. Round here Bears can get 600lb. to 750 + .I hunt without Dogs ,on the ground in bears ,known route of traval ,so it gets up close at times ,I prefer the 45/70, I've got 9.3X57 and a 9.3 X62 that I'mm going to use in the near future,hopefully.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #58 on:** April 23, 2005, 04:18:27 AM »

I have never shot a bear. I have never had an interest in shooting a bear but when I was a kid, bears would come out of Dismal Swamp in Virginia and tear up corn fields and take hogs to the point that the Game Commission would issue special permits to the farmers to kill nuisance bears. They used whatever deer rifle they had on hand to do the job. 30-30, .300sav, 30-06, .303, 6.5, etc. And they seemed to work.
From what I read on the internet, they have now grown a race of super bear, like the bulletproof deer they now have on the east coast. Nothing short of a nuclear strike is gonna put them down. They are quite different from the deer and bear that I have seen around my place.
I, too, think its about 99% campfire BS and 1% fact. Like the fellow that is getting a bigger gun cause he made a PERFECT shoulder shot on a deer that destroyed the shoulder and blew the heart apart and the deer still ran away NEVER TO BE FOUND.
A fellow can use what he wants to. But its pointless to try to "justify" it by giving the quarry properties that defy all natural laws. Save that for your wife so she won't kick too much about getting a new rifle.

ought6 · « **Reply #59 on:** April 25, 2005, 03:48:30 AM »

(Waving hello)
This thread is very interesting and humorous. New York Hunter, since you are letting your dad use the 444, this is a good excuse to get you a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 and reload your rounds using a 405 grain Remington bullet up to about 2000 fps and stop any dangerous game in this hemisphere.
The way I figure it, your gun battery could be a 30-06 and a 45-70 and you'd be set to hunt anything on four legs short of a charging cape buffalo or charging elephant. Use the right bullet in the 45-70, and it'll even stop them!!! :-D