Author Topic: Do you think this would make a good black bear rifle ??? (Read 4810 times)

NYH1 · « **on:** February 05, 2005, 11:36:47 AM »

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=17884&return=Y

How much will the 16 1/2 inch barrel hurt the performance

Don Fischer · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:22:06 PM »

Ho heck yes but I'ed wear several set's of ear plug's, a couple stocking cap's pulled down over my ears and a really good set of muff's! If that doesn't work for you, maybe you could try casting bullet's. A 16 and a half inch barrel will probally be burning powder for about 6" after it leaves the barrel. Do it in the evening and it should be like watching a fighter jet leave an aircraft carrier under full power with the afterburrners kicked in. Did Ruger really come up with this thing or is it a joke?

NYH1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:42:56 PM »

Quote from: Don Fischer

Did Ruger really come up with this thing or is it a joke?

Their really making them. I wouldn't go with the "scout scope" set up. I would put a regular Leupold VX-II 2-7x33mm scope on it.

jvs · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:45:51 PM »

Ask yourself these questions:

How big do the Bears get where you want to hunt?

How far do you think your farthest shot will be?

I think the State Record Black Bear in Pa is somewhere around 850 pounds with a few 400 pound, 500 pound and 600 pound bears taken every year, then there's the guys who shoot small ones. Alot of Bear hunters here use the heavier magnum loads for hunting them. The people I know who have just bought new rifles for hunting Bear have been going with the .338 Mag for better knock down power. Bear have heavy bones and from what I hear usually take more than one shot. Even if hit in the chest, they can still take a few more rounds before they roll over.

The 16 1/2 inch Barrel shouldn't hurt you on the 'short' shots. What you may want to ask yourself is if the Barrel is long enough in a Magnum or long action to ensure that all powder is burned while the bullet is traveling down the barrel. I believe the theory is that for every inch of under 24" you loose 'X' number of fps and a few foot pounds of energy. Also keep in mind that some manufacturers outfit their Magnum calibers with 26" Barrels.

Stories of Bear taking 2 shots from a .30-06 or a 7mm Mag and running off, only to get hit by a few more hunters before finally falling over a half mile away are not uncommon.

I like your choice of rifles though. I was considering a 16 1/2 Ruger but the 'powder burn' question still nags me, especially in long action or magnum loads.

Lawdog · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2005, 02:12:52 PM »

Caliber choice, .300 WSM, is excellent. Rifle make, Ruger, is also very good. The 16.5" barrel I wouldn't have on a bet. The blast from that short of a barrel would be tremendous. Velocity loss, upwards of 400 fps., would put it at/under a .30-06 velocities. Why would you want a rifle with a barrel that short? Lawdog

NYH1 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2005, 02:28:38 PM »

half_inch_group, I'm really just "thinking out loud" so to say! Here is a topic I posted on the "Bear Hunting" forum.

Quote from: New York Hunter

My father and I are thinking about going on a black bear hunt in the near future, probably in Quebec, Canada. I have a few rifles to choose from. One is a 444 Marlin. We'll definitely be bring that one. I also want to bring my 280 Rem. right now this rifles set up for deer hunting. I use factory ammo. For deer I use Remington 140 gr. Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt (going to try Hornady's 139 gr. SST Light Mag.). I want to use something a little heavier for bear. I guess the bear range from 200 to 600 pounds in the area were going to go. I understand that the chances of seeing a 400 to 600 pound black bear are slim to none. I would rather be prepared!

I was looking at Remington's 165 gr. Soft Point Core-Lokt ammo. Also Federal's 150 gr. Nosler Partition and 160 gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw ammo. Winchester's 140 gr. Failsafe seems a little light and I'd rather use something heavier that will penetrate deeper. What do you guys/gals think ?

I really think my 280 Rem. will be fine with the right bullets. I'm not ruling out getting a new rifle for this hunt. I buy all the guns I can even if I don't need them! :-D I would like to get a Remington model 700 CDL in 35 Whelen, but I don't have the money right now. Their "limited production" so they'll probably be gone by the time I'm ready to buy one.

I also like the Remington model 673 in 350 Remington Magnum. They have one at the local Gander Mountain for $599.99! At first I didn't like the "vent rib" on it but I don't mind it anymore.

NYH1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2005, 02:33:29 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Why would you want a rifle with a barrel that short? Lawdog

It would make a handy little rifle that about the only reason.

jvs · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2005, 03:36:19 PM »

I never hunted for Bear but I know alot of people who do and I see the favorite calibers come out every November. Most of them are into .30-06 or larger with nothing less than 180 gr bullets. Even though there are small Bear out there in Pa, there are also some monsters. I know you said Quebec but you never know whats going to walk out. Going hunting for Bear with 140, 150, 160 or 165 gr bullets may only let your Bear run into somebody else. Even 180 gr would not guarantee that a big bear would go right down.

Although I am not a big fan of shoulder or head shots, with a Bear I would take it. I have one good friend who hit one right between the eyes with a .30-06 200 gr Core-lokt at about 40 yards. The bullet never left the skull and the Bear was under 300 pounds. That is the kind of Skeletal structure you deal with in a big Bear.

A Whelen would be a dandy Bear load, so would the .338 Mag and 350 Mag. If you go hunting at a place where other hunters are, you may find the .280 may or may not be a little under powered to bring a huge Bear down. A .444 or .45-70 are also good I hear. Those .450 Marlins should be a real killer for Bear too. It's one of those things you can never say for sure, you can only plan for it.

This year may be the first year I try Bear Hunting. I don't usually go for things that have meat in their diet but I've been debating about finally going for Bear. If I do, I will be taking my .30-06 with 200 gr CoreLokts.

Ramrod · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2005, 03:27:32 AM »

New York Hunter, A lever action carbine would be even handier. And I'll bet the muzzle blast from that .300 must be pretty bad. Your .280 with Nosler Partition bullets is plenty of gun.

Another thing, I was all over the Remington website and I as far as I can tell they don't make a .30 caliber 200 grain Core-Lockt.

ScoutMan · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2005, 04:31:17 AM »

I have the Ruger compact in 308. With ear protection the noise is not even noticable.

My load is the the 165 gr. nosler behind 42 gr. of 3031. By extrapolation I figure I am getting about 2500 fps out of the Compact. For bear hunting just make sure you use a stout bullet like the Nosler Barns X or the Swift.

Short barrel carbines are at their best in medium capacity cartridges such as the 308 and fast burning powders like 3031, 4064, Win 748, etc. Jeff Cooper got 2700 fps out of 18.5" barrel Remington 600 with the 150 gr. bullet.

Generally you lose about 25 fps for each inch of barrel loss under 24".

Personally, I think that a 300 SUM makes no sense in a short carbine because it takes slow burning powder and a long barrel to get the velocity performance.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2005, 04:36:23 AM »

Never hunted a Bear for meat,only to kill Bad Bears and have use 06 220grs up until 4 years ago when I got the ported M 450,it is as you need it ,iron sights,short barrel and tremendous knockdown with quick second shot recovery,it is by far the best I have seen or used.

BIG JAKE · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2005, 10:46:00 AM »

That state record bear of 800+lbs that was shot back in the early 90's was shot with a 30-30 guess he didn't now such a little gun killed him. :? :? :?

BackCountry · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2005, 05:48:32 PM »

I love hunting black bear, my weapon of choice is the marlin 444 using 285 grain cor-bon ammunition. I have taken bears with 30 cal. guns and the biggest reason i stay with the big bores is for the bigger hole. When a bear gets hit and if it is able to run off, it will head for the thickest cover around, while since they have so much fat it is easy for the holes to plug up. I use a big bore to get a better blood trail, the 450 marlin would be another good choice, and by the way the meat is excellent.

Zachary · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2005, 06:23:47 PM »

I know that there are several people that use a .270 Winchester to hunt black bear in Canada, and I'm sure that they work, but I agree with you, I would like a wider bullet. Personally, I wouldn't go below 30 caliber for that same reason.

I'm not a fan of short barrels, but I do recognize that they are useful under certain applications. On the other hand, a .300WSM bullet out of a 16.5" barrel is wayyyyy to short for me. Personally, I wouldn't own a .300WSM with a barrel any shorter than 22" with 24" being ideal.

If I ever go black bear hunting, I think that I would buy a Remington CDL in .35 Whelen just for that occasion (although I keep on hoping that Remington will come out with a stainless version for the .35 Whelen.)

Zachary

Don Dick · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2005, 06:34:48 PM »

People get to carried away with big magnum rifles and forget most cannot shoot them accurately due to the recoil. Black Bear are not hard to kill.
In fact they are eaiser to kill then deer.

Stay with your deer rifle that your use to. You will be better off. If you do buy the 338, once you carry it a season you will be back with your deer rifle anyway.

BackCountry · « **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2005, 07:18:59 PM »

Don,
I disagree with you on black bears being easier to kill than deer. I have seen them run a long ways with no heart, I have seen bears take some solid shots go down then get back up and run. I have been bear hunting for 24 years and have seen a lot of bizzar things with bears, they are a very fun animal to hunt, and I have a lot of respect for them.

msorenso · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2005, 01:38:53 AM »

Just my 2 cents,
I am going black bear for the first time this spring. I asked the guys that have been going for the last 15+ years what they used. Out of the 7 of them, they used one of the following a 308,30-06,270. Since I like the Rem Guide gun I paln on using a Rem 350 mag. Which is a 30-06 necked out to 35 caliber.

NYH1 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 07, 2005, 06:22:15 AM »

Quote from: msorenso

Since I like the Rem Guide gun I paln on using a Rem 350 mag. Which is a 30-06 necked out to 35 caliber.

msorenso, I like the model 673 guide gun as well. The 350 Rem. Mag. is actually a completely different cartridge then a 30-06. Its a short and fat cartridge like the new WSM's except it has a "belted case" The 35 Whelen is basically a 30-06 necked up to 35 caliber. I really like both cartridges. I would love to get a Remington model 700 CDL in 35 Whelen. Its a limited production gun so by the time I'm ready to buy a new rifle they'll probably be gone already!

So the model 673 in 350 Rem, Mag. might be what I'll go with. I'll also look at the model 700 CDL in 30-06 and 300 Win. Mag. Federal is loading 30-06 ammo with 180 gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Nosler Partitions. Their "high energy" loads for the 30-06 are getting 3300 plus "foot pounds of energy" at the muzzle!

jvs · « **Reply #18 on:** February 07, 2005, 09:29:23 AM »

Sounds like you'll fit right in when Bear season comes around in Pa, if you choose to try it.

Just bring some donuts........the Black Bear in Pa take a liking to powdered donuts.....or so I hear. But the Game Commission won't like it.

Don Dick · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2005, 10:31:39 AM »

I respect your opinion, however what you are saying about bear I have seen with deer shot thru the heart. Respect for what your hunting relates to clean kills. Clean kills relates to shot placement.

Take the 338 to Alaska or Africa, use a deer caliber in Pa. If you want to set a bullet weight limit, use at least 140 grain.

Just so you can see I understand were your coming from, I carried a 300
Remington ultra mag for a hunting season. The following year I was back to my deer caliber, 7mm-08.

Lawdog · « **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2005, 10:53:50 AM »

Don Dick,

Quote

Black Bear are not hard to kill.
In fact they are eaiser to kill then deer.

I really have to disagree with you on this. I don't know how many Black Bears you have taken but in the number I have taken they die MUCH harder. I have never seen a Black Bear drop at the shot and stay put unless it was hit in the head or neck. You have never seen a deer kill the hunter that wounded him/her. You have never seen a deer stalk, kill and devour a human either. Black Bears ARE dangerous game and should be treated as such. As for a 16.5 barrel being handy in heavy brush, I have hunted heavy brush all my life using 24 - 26 barrels and have never seen the need for a shorter one. Lawdog

NYH1 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2005, 11:03:08 AM »

I appreciate everyones input on this, I really do!. I'm still really torn as to what to do. I mean for years the 270 Win., 280 Rem. and the 30-06 were North America's "all round rifles cartridges" and with the right bullets would take any game animal with the exception of brown, grizzly, and kodiak bear as well as buffalo! I really thought that my 280 Rem. with the right bullets would be fine for black bear of all shapes and sizes. Having said that.....I have never shot black bear so I really don't know! Again thanks for the replies and keep them coming in you have more to offer ! Thanks

NYH1 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 07, 2005, 11:19:11 AM »

One thing I have read about bears is that IF and I mean IF you get attacked by a brown, grizzly or kodiak bear they usually don't try and eat you right there. If you try to play dead and the bear thinks you are they'll usually leave you and come back later. Black bear on the other hand will try and eat you right from the beginning. Meaning that if you play dead your just easier for them to kill. And a little 200 lbs. bear is gonna beat a 200 lbs. man every time. I also read that black bears have been known to stalk a human for the sole purpose of eating them as will the brown, grizzly and kodiak bears. There was this guy on TV that is a expert on bear attacks and he said black bear are just as dangerous if not more so then other bears. I can't think of his name right now, but I'll try to find it.

Don Dick · « **Reply #23 on:** February 07, 2005, 11:21:21 AM »

Lawdog, Let me put it this way after reading your reply I am now hiding in a corner with my 500 S&W because I am afraid a black Bear might get me.

Ramrod · « **Reply #24 on:** February 07, 2005, 11:29:28 AM »

Quote from: New York Hunter

I'm still really torn as to what to do. I mean for years the 270 Win., 280 Rem. and the 30-06 were North America's "all round rifles cartridges"

So what is different now? The magnums are certainly not new. Has North American game grown tougher? I doubt it.
Here is what I think is the differance between now and then. It's the internet. Just a way for deer camp B.S. to spread faster. Any joker with an opinion and no facts to back it up can post, and somebody will believe it. The old time gunwriters, except for maybe Elmer Keith, were much more truthfull about what they wrote about.

jvs · « **Reply #25 on:** February 07, 2005, 11:32:36 AM »

Quote from: New York Hunter

One thing I have read about bears is that IF and I mean IF you get attacked by a brown, grizzly or kodiak bear they usually don't try and eat you right there. If you try to play dead and the bear thinks you are they'll usually leave you and come back later. Black bear on the other hand will try and eat you right from the beginning. Meaning that if you play dead your just easier for them to kill. I also read that black bears have been known to stalk a human for the sole purpose of eating them as will the brown, grizzle and kodiak bears. There was this guy on TV that is a expert on bear attacks and he said black bear are just as dangerous if not more so then other bears. I can't think of his name right now, but i'll try to find it.

That is counter to everything I have ever heard or read about Black Bear. While it would not be wise to mess with a female and cubs or an injured Bear, the Black Bear is probably known as the most docile of all Bears. My own experience was with a 500+ pound Male. He growled and grunted, turned and ran away. Even a female with two cubs took to the trees at the sight of a human. I have not hunted Bears, but I have had 'contact' with them in the wild. The Black Bear in these parts do not like confrontation with humans. While there are newspaper stories of Black Bears breaking into houses and cabins, it usually arises from people thinking it's "Cute" to feed Bears. It isn't so 'cute' when the house or cabin is locked up for the weekend and the Bear wants some food though. They can find the refridgerator just fine.

Trying to compare the temperment of a Black Bear to a Brown or Grizz is hard to do. They aren't even close.

NYH1 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 07, 2005, 11:41:15 AM »

Quote from: half_inch_group

It isn't so 'cute' when the house or cabin is locked up for the weekend and the Bear wants some food though

Your 100% right on that ! :grin:

Don Dick · « **Reply #27 on:** February 07, 2005, 12:08:36 PM »

half_inch_group, Good post. :-)

Big Paulie · « **Reply #28 on:** February 07, 2005, 12:43:48 PM »

I think that there is a typo in the name of the rifle under discussion. As printed, it says Ruger Model 77 Mk II "Frontier". I think it's really suppose to read "Front-ear" because the recoil is so bad, that after you fire it, your left ear ends up on the front of your face.

Or maybe it is suppose to be "Front-Hair," because the muzzle blast out of that short barrel is so bad, that it burns the hair off the front of your head?

Gosh, after 100 years of black bear hunting with smokeless powder, do we really need yet another "black bear rifle?

" Get a .35 Marlin Lever action. Or, if you really feel the need, get a .45-70 Marlin Lever action. You won't be sorry. Gee Whiz.

Big Paulie

BackCountry · « **Reply #29 on:** February 07, 2005, 09:46:17 PM »

Don Dick,
Have you ever seen a heart shot deer fall to the ground, get back up and run up the tree next to you, then run down and go several hundred yards through some of the nastiest terrain you will ever see.
If the primary use for this weapon is for bear, the bigger diameter calibers are better, 444, 45-70, 450 marlin. Like I stated before a smaller hole plugs up easier, especially if you are doing a fall hunt when the bears are trying to put on a lot of fat. Will the other calibers work, of course they will, like Don Dick said, it is shot placement. Also a little known fact, more people are killed by black bears than by grizzly's