5 HUNTERS KILLED!

[Zachary]

Dear all,

Check out this link:

http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041122%2F0559494822.htm&sc=1110&photoid=20041121WIMG102

What an outrage is this!!!

And also, the writer says that an SKS 7.62 semi-auto is a common hunting weapon?  Does this mean that the antis are going to limit the amount of bullets that we can use in our deer rifles?  

Zachary

[mountainview]

Zach,

Those hunters were murdered, not killed. The shooter literally hunted down each one before killing them in cold blood. A sickening story and one that should never have happened. The hunting community will have a black eye over this one for quite some time .

[DanielWGriggs]

Short jail term and termination in a little gray room. Why would anyone hunt other hunters. Who the hell hunts with a SKS sick ......

[Questor]

There is a lot of friction between the Hmong (like Mr. Vang) hunters and other Minnesota hunters. I believe this is rightly so. My own experience with Hmong hunters has been uniformly bad. I see them more as poachers and tresspassers than as hunters. When I see a Hmong hunting party, I leave.  When I see laws broken in the field I get scared.  I sincerely believe that, per capita, the Hmong hunters are the worst slobs in the field.  

Fortunately, hunting is a strong tradition in the Hmong community and I believe that things can and will be turned around. The land is there for all hunters, but things simply have to be done ethically and legally.

Hopefully, this savage act will have an effect that improves the situation. It really can't get much worse.

[Lawdog]

Zachary,

Our prayers go out to the victims and their families.  The first two hunters that confronted the suspect, Chai Vang, forgot that they were confronting an armed stranger.  As a property owner I have had armed strangers(trespassers either hunting or scouting for a possible site for their marijuana crop) and the best thing to do is report them to the local law(police, sheriff’s department).  One should NEVER confront an armed stranger in the woods.  Marijuana growers shoot first and don’t bother asking questions.  It’s a terrible crime that this happened and the worst part is it may very well cause another Assault Weapons Ban to be introduced.  The anti’s are going to have a field day with this as the news media is already doing so.  Lawdog
 

[IntrepidWizard]

In the Stanislaus National Forest that abuts me at times we have had Hmongs hunting Bears for there parts-years ago one of them told me he could get $5000 for Bear parts--and we have Flatlanders with 20 rounds to expend and 24 cans of Beer to finish off,I have confronted them on more than one occasion and taken their weapons and Drivers License and told them they have 45 minutes to hit the county line,called the SO and returned licenses but kept weapons to be picked up---they never came back ,one was a 336  the other a Savage.Also have had hunters kill a cow ,Colt and shoot up wells and other things but they are not in their "Hood",they are in my "Hood" so I or we get them.

[DonT]

One thing that I try to remind myself is that one Hmong individual that goes on a rampage does not mean all Hmong hunters are irresponsible any more than one Jeffrey Dammer means all Whites are cannibals or using the fella that sniped all those people out east to say all blacks are snipers.    

There are a number of individual in any race that are not good representaions of their race or cultures.  To use them as a gauge probably does a disservice to a lot of good people.

Don't get me wrong, what this "Person" did was wrong and he needs to be punished to fullest extent of the law.  There is no justification for this at anytime, anywhere.  

For myself I am trying to keep focused on the fact that this crime was caused by one "man".  In 40 years of hunting I have had my fair share of run-ins with less than desireables in the woods from all races.  

I couldn't agree with Lawdog more the only "winners" in this situation will be the anti-gunners and anti-hunters.  They could not have orchestrated a better platform.   I feel that finger pointing might do more harm than good at this point as standing together as hunters, sportsman and gun owners would do far more to strengthen our positon.

Just one old guys opinions...

DonT

[Questor]

DonT:

This is a special case. There is a serious problem among the Hmong hunters in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area.  

I too have met yahoos of all races, and have been a yahoo a time or two myself,  but that is beside the point.

This case needs to be held up as being more than just another mass murder by a lone maniac. It needs to  be the one case that hits the Hmong hard and hopefully serves as a vital wakeup call.

The last case, in which a bow hunter was shot out of a tree and killed, wasn't sufficient.

[Big Paulie]

MSN News is reporting today that this Person has had two prior incidences of violence, including pulling a gun on his wife and threatening to kill her, to which the police were called to respond.

   Here is a crazy, but constructive, idea.  When people form up their hunting clubs next year, try to get at least one Hmong member to join and treat him like one of the gang.  If he pays his dues to join, then he will not like anyone poaching on the land either, and maybe this can be the start of mutual understanding. He will be able to explain it to his friends.

    Here in West Tennessee it is extremely common to approach an armed stranger on your land. Heck, if he is hunting on your property, of course he is going to be armed!   When I approach, it is always with a howdy and a smile, but I have my rifle gently cradled at the ready, with my right hand around the grip, my right finger on the trigger and my right thumb on the safety switch.  

   I always start with the assumption  (and fiction) that he is lost, or confused or mistaken (even if he is not).  This let's him save face and avoids a totally unnecessary macho confrontation.  I then explain that I own the land, that it is so  small that for safety sake, I am sorry that I am not able to allow general public hunting (I don't use the words poacher or trespasser).  I then point out the boundary lines and fences, tell him I am sure he crossed over accidently, and then ask that he finish out the rest of the morning (or evening) in the stand before he leaves. I then tell him that I am very sorry that I can't have him come back, but that I hope he understands.

    I have never had a person fail to leave within an hour after this, and I have never had anyone return.  If I ever see that someone has returned, I am going to call 911 on my cell phone and explain the situation.

Just my thoughts.  Big Paulie

[Questor]

Big Paulie:

That is an excellent idea, and I may have an opportunity to do just that myself.  It's simply a matter of learning what's right and doing it.

There are quite a few Hmong that "get it", and for all I know it may be the majority.  The Hmong have a strong hunting tradition, and also like small game hunting. This is great! Eventually we will get past the problems and things will improve. But there's a long way to go.

State of Minnesota has hired several Hmong conservation officers, and I believe this is a step in the right direction also as it will help get the word out in a way that makes sense to the Hmong.

[257Robt]

This is an unfortunate incident that will give hunters a bad rap and I send my condolences to the family members who lost loved ones. I hope that people will not frown on the Hmong community because of this. My wife and I have Hmong neighbors and they are some of the best neighbors that one could ask for. They do hunt and from what we have seen, the amount of respect given to the animals that they take is incredible.
In regards to the SKS as a hunting weapon. I have seen them on several occasions where I hunt in WI and I know people that use them mainly because they are cheap, plenty accurate for deer in most situations, and durable.
A member in my hunting party asked a good question and this is not meant to be disrespectful to anyone. What tone was taken with Chai Vang, meaning, were racial slurs said to him. From what I have seen, many people in WI are racist towards the Hmong community. I am not saying that anyone should be shot, but could the situation have been avoided.

[Big Paulie]

257

   Your question is an excellent one.  We as hunters have to analyze and re-analyze this tragedy 10 times more than the non-hunters and anti-hunters.  We have to ask all of the hard questions and do alot of soul searching.  No question that this guy was totally in the wrong and a murderer.  But perhaps a different approach towards him could have averted 5 deaths.

    I once held a permit to hunt on all lands owned by Westvaco Timber Company.   I found a small 35 acre block, tucked up in between some large farms, but there was no public access road.  Well, under Tennessee law, if any land is landlocked, you have a right to obtain legal access to it by using the most ready route.  So, I parked my truck on the side of a state road, and started walking across a large grain field to reach the timber block.

   About half way across, two Jeeps and a three wheeler full of rednecks came roaring down on me, surrounding and circling me. It was like a scene straight out of Road Warrior.

    Then the big mouth, "smart" redneck dismounts and comes up to me with gun in hand, yelling at me and asking me if I knew where I was.  I told him I did, and that I was to the Westvaco timber block.  He said there was not Westvaco land anywhere around.  I pulled out my Westvaco map, and tried to show it to him, but he wouldn't look at it.

    Then he said that he and his friends had leased all of the farm land for hunting, and that I was trespassing, and that I had ruined the entire morning of hunting.  I told him that I was not trespassing, that I had a legal right to cross, and that I was sorry to lay a scent trail in front of their stands but I didn't know where they were.  I also told him that the best way to ruin a  hunt for the entire day is to have 5 people ride out in motor vehicles and stand in the middle of the field.

    Then they started yelling at me again, and ordering me off the property, all holding their guns.  Let me tell you, this got real scarey.  Three of them were wearing pistols.

    I told them that even if they held the deer lease, they were not owners or tenants, and only held hunting rights.  So, they had no legal authority whatsoever to order anyone off of the land, or play policeman, or threaten anyone.  I told them that if they wanted to call the police, then to please go ahead.  I would sit and wait.  The police could look at their written lease, which they plainly didn't have, and I would show them the Westvaco tract.  The police would have to talk to the owner first to verify their story.

     I finally told them that if they weren't going to call the police, then I would leave the land right then, by walking straight over to the Westvaco tract, which was a shorter walk than going back to the road.  So, I shouldered my rifle, and just started walking straight away.  Again, really scarey.

      When I was finished hunting that evening, I waited until pitch dark, then walked back out with a flashlight.  Only thing I could think to do.

      Bottom line, if someone is mentally disturbed or drunk or just really scared, then this type of self-righteous SWAT team attack by rednecks is exactly the wrong thing to do.  I do not have any reason to believe that this occurred in the recent shooting, but I just pass it along as discussion.

Big Paulie

[Questor]

BigPaulie:

I've had a few similar experiences, and "scary" is the right word. It's really important to keep cool. Even when there's a drunk pointing a knife at you and another drunk pointing a gun at you.  Then there's that unique sound that a bullet makes when it whizzes past you, or the thud that bird shot makes when it hits your jacket.  Been there, done that. That's why I'm so leery of bad behavior in the field and leave whenever I sense it.  These things can rapidly escalate and there are an awful lotta bubbas like the ones you describe.  By the way, my drunks with the weapons went to jail as a result.

[hillbill]

just for those of us that dont know, what the heck is a Hmong?

[257Robt]

Hmong are an Asian group of people that helped the US out during the Vietnam war. I believe that they were mountain tribes in Vietnam. After the Vietnam war, the Hmong were refuges. I am not sure of the whole legal mumbo jumbo, but I belive that many if not mostly all of them were granted US citizenship for there part in helping out. Wisconsin and Minnesota have a large Hmong population.

[Gregory]

HAYWARD, Wisconsin (AP) -- A man suspected in the killings of six hunters told investigators he began firing after he was shot at first and some of the victims called him racially derogatory names, according to documents filed Tuesday.

A judge set bail at $2.5 million for Chai Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minnestora, who is suspected in the killings Sunday of six deer hunters and the wounding of two others.

Bail was set after investigators filed documents arguing there was probable cause to hold Vang in the shootings. No charges have been filed.

Vang, a Hmong immigrant from Laos, ..............

Full story:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/23/hunters.shot.ap/index.html

[hillbill]

the cnn story seems fairly thorough but it seems like vang killed all the witnesses that could of told their side of the story. the authoritys need to find that bullet he says was fired at him. this could end up as a hatfield-mcoy type thing every deer season for the next decade.

[Gregory]

the cnn story seems fairly thorough but it seems like vang killed all the witnesses that could of told their side of the story. the authoritys need to find that bullet he says was fired at him. this could end up as a hatfield-mcoy type thing every deer season for the next decade.

Another account:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6551094/

[anweis]

I am an immigrant too and have never thought of killing people who insulted me.
And killing six people, actually chasing one of them and shooting him in the back, does not look like self defence.
The guy obviously went bezerk, is a mass murderer, and should be treated as such.

[safetysheriff]

       Here in West Tennessee it is extremely common to approach an armed stranger on your land. Heck, if he is hunting on your property, of course he is going to be armed!   When I approach, it is always with a howdy and a smile, but I have my rifle gently cradled at the ready, with my right hand around the grip, my right finger on the trigger and my right thumb on the safety switch.  

   I always start with the assumption  (and fiction) that he is lost, or confused or mistaken (even if he is not).  This let's him save face and avoids a totally unnecessary macho confrontation.  I then explain that I own the land, that it is so  small that for safety sake, I am sorry that I am not able to allow general public hunting (I don't use the words poacher or trespasser).  I then point out the boundary lines and fences, tell him I am sure he crossed over accidently, and then ask that he finish out the rest of the morning (or evening) in the stand before he leaves. I then tell him that I am very sorry that I can't have him come back, but that I hope he understands.

    I have never had a person fail to leave within an hour after this, and I have never had anyone return.  If I ever see that someone has returned, I am going to call 911 on my cell phone and explain the situation.

Just my thoughts.  Big Paulie

BP'

That is an excellent post....in my opinion.   Excellent.   Sounds like a good, decent, Christian approach to a significant problem.

FWIW, well done.

SS'

[Buckfever]

Everybody needs to let this play out for awhile.  I live in MN and I don't think we have been told all the facts yet.  ie.  Mr. Vang said he was hunting with 2 other people where are they?  Their is a survivor who after he deals with his terrible loss maybe able to get this story on track.  Probably most important this is a story about  escalating confrontation between people that happened to be in deer hunting setting this was not a direct outcome of hunting!  I think some people think well they didn't have to go hunting and this wouldn't have happened.  Well with that logic you wouldn't have to ride a motorcycle or ride a horse like Christopher Reeves and those things would not have happened. The very same problems happen on buses, planes, cars, sports events, and everywhere.  I think the truth will come out over time and would speculate that many things contributed to the outcome.  The loss of the people and community has to be the issue at hand for now.     Buckfever

[Paul Barnard]

Remember that sometimes well intentioned people trespass accidentally.  Just yesterday I went hunting in the Pascagoula River WMA.  I had been fishing in the area several times and had spooked up some hogs and deer.  I had many times over reviewed the maps provided by DWFP and there are no private holdings shown within the WMA in the area I had chosen to hunt.  I paddled my kayak in during low light, beached it and began a long slow walk.  About an hour later I noticed a posted/hunting club sign and a WMA sign on a tree next to it both facing the same direction.  I was confused to say the least.  I looked all around and finally figured out the boundary line based on some yellow spray paint on several trees.  I would neccesarily have to continue my trespass to get back to the kayak.  I unloaded my gun, opened the bolt and slung it across my back.  I went directly to my kayak and left the area.  Had I been confronted in a hostile manner, I may not have responded favorably.  I would not have responded with violence.  I had tried my best to conduct my affairs in a lawful manner and had made an honest mistake. I would have deserved to be treated respectfully.  Even if the land owners had wanted to press charges, I would have accepted the consequences, but there would have been no call for hostility.

In another instance I was in the Desoto National Forest.  I had a map that reflected this.  Two men in a pick-up stopped and started cussing me out for trespassing.   I was not 100% certain I was in the right.  I placed my gun on the ground and calmly exlained myself.  My de-escalation techniques worked, and their tone soon changed.   I left the area and reported them to the DNF authorities.  They told me the men had a cattle lease for that area, but it did not preclude other lawful uses within the leased area.  They were advised of this in writing in the lease.  What they did was illegal and could have well resulted in the revocation of the lease.  Bottom line is, I could have escalated the situation into full blown confrontation.  I chose to try to avoid problems and it worked.

It could be that in the shootings at hand the problem could have been resolved peacefully.   My heart sinks when I read about stuff like this.  First and foremost for the victims and their loved ones.  Secondly, I think about the possible repercussions in the anti and media (is their a difference) community.  If the suspect had recently threatened his wife with a gun and was walking free on a crime for which he should still be in jail, then the judicial system is guilty of mal-practice (I would like to see a lawsuit over this), and should shoulder the blame.  How much of the crime commited these days is committed by people who should be in jail in the first place?  If the suspect in this case had been convicted of threatening his wife with a gun, then he would not have been able to legally posess a gun.  Has this been addressed?

Paul

[anweis]

the Vang guy started walking away, then he took the scope off his SKS and started shooting at everyone, even though only one person in eight had a rifle. This makes no sense. If i tresspas and i am asked to leave, why would i stop and fiddle with my rifle?  The only reason for taking the scope off that SKS was that he decided at that very moment that he will kill them all, and that he will shoot better with the open sights than with a scope zeroed at 100 yards (his victims were at 40 feet). He claims that he was shot at first, from about 40 feet away, and that the bullet struck 10 feet in front of him. C'mon guys, i don't know anyone from Wisconsin, but i am sure as heck they can hit a big orange target 40 feet away.
There was no self defence there. Several victims had multiple gunshots. Rememeber, eight people shot, seven of them unarmed, several with multiple shots. That's not self defence.

Big Paulie, approaching trespassers with a gun in your hand and a finger on the trigger may well be Christian and may be a usual thing in TN, but it is not conducive to a peaceful resolution to something that may very well be just a mistake. Get their license plate number, or their description, and call the police. After all, the worst that can happen is that someone poaches a deer on your land. That is not worth getting killed over, and if you are Christian i don't think it is worth killing someone for that. If you approached me with a finger on the trigger i would feel seriously threatened. Now i am a mentally stable guy, and i call myself a civilized person, so i would still  excuse myself and leave immediately (hoping that you will not shoot me in the back). But if you happen to approach some tribal savage from some Asian mountains or a mentally ill person, or some drunk bastard, and you have a finger on your trigger, he may choose to shoot you before you shoot him (pre-emptive strike, it's common in today's foreign policy). So i guess using a phone rather than a gun is more productive and far less risky for everyone.

I live in West Texas and i was on both sides. I was hunting rabbits with a 20 ga. on a grassland (CRP). I had permission from one landowner, but properties were large, the land was flat and monotonous, nothing but grass, and the boundaries were not marked. So i ended up 500 yards into the neighbor's land. Two guys drove in a pick up truck, and the very moment i saw them i put my shotgun on the ground, waived at them, and i must have thought "something is wrong here", because i asked them if i was trespassing. They said yes, and i said were i came from, and that i had permission from the property next to theirs, and that i am sorry and i will leave immediately. I had one rabbit shot on their land and i told them i would pay for it or i would give them the rabbit.  I don't know if they actually had some handgun when they approached me, but everything went smooth, no tension, and i got to keep my rabbit and hunt on their land.  

Some other time i lived on a ranch (10,000 acres) for two weeks while the owners were gone on vacation. One evening i saw three guys in a pick up stop on the road at the property boudary, hop the fence, and start shooting at something. I saw a bunch of mule deer does and fawns runing, and they kept shooting. I got their license plate number (binoculars) and i called the cops. They were arrested 30 minutes later on the highway, with two fawns in their truck. They were drunk. Now, what do you think would have happened if i tried to approach them with my finger on the trigger?
Use your cell phones guys, that's why you pay for them. As much as you want to get that trophy buck, and you hate trespassers taking your game, remeber, a dead deer can be replaced. A dead human cannot.

[Big Paulie]

Great and thoughful discussions and soul searching here.

   Just for clarification, although I approach strangers with my right hand on the pistol grip and trigger of my rifle, my left hand is not on the rifle. Instead, the forestock of the rifle is sitting easily in the crook of my left elbow, with the muzzle of the rifle facing low and 90 degrees away from the stranger at all times.  I am not pointing it at him, I am not waiving it at him.    To create the crook of my left elbow, I take my left arm, and wrap it around under my right wrist (like I am hugging the rifle), and I  have my left hand hanging onto (gripping) the middle of the forearm of my right hand.

   For me, this is a very normal and relaxed way to carry a rifle when I am walking with it during hunting season. It is easy going and allows a fast upward swing and quick shoot if needed.  The people I have approached have not acted as if I am threatening them.  An indeed, I am not.  I view this as a defensive carry of a rifle.

    At times, if I see a hunter who has lots of blaze orange on, and is very obvious in the stand, I get the sense (maybe wrongly) that he is a prettyy law abidding guy, so I will approach this type of hunter with my rifle slung over my right shoulder.  

   Another good pointer, whenever I approach these people, I always walk towards them real slow, in kind of a wandering pattern, over the 100 yard area in front of their stand, like I am real tired.   They see that I have laid down lots and lots of human scent right in front of their stand.  When I am talking with them, I also try to stretch the conversation out for 5 minutes or so, shoot the breeze a little, and again create the impression that I have put lots of scent right down in front of their stands.

   I think that my scent strategy is the reason why, even though I tell them that they can stay for the rest of the morning or evening, they generally leave in 45 minutes or so.  In effect, they know that the hunt is over.

    A big risk to consider here that has not been discussed.  If you start out by just calling the police on these guys, and have the police escort them off of the property, then you have totally humiliated and infuriated them.  Know what can happen next?   One week later, they ride by your place in the evening, and throw a burning paper towel into your woods.  In an instant, 100 acres of timber, all of your hunting ground, and maybe your house, goes up in a raging forest fire.  Chance of proving this guy did it?  Nearly Zero.  This happened to my neighbor about 15 years ago.

   Just my thoughts.  Big Paulie

[Lawdog]

Go to http://www.startribune.com/style/news/newsgraphics/files/shooting1123.pdf to view the police report on the shooting.

The following is a copy of Lauren Hesebeck, who survived the shooting, statement.

Survivor Of Hunting Rampage Denies Shooting First
2001 Deer Hunter Slaying Also Being Probed

POSTED: 12:48 pm EST November 24, 2004
UPDATED: 1:25 pm EST November 24, 2004

HAYWARD, Wis. -- A survivor of Sunday's Wisconsin hunter shootings said the suspect was the first one to fire.

Lauren Hesebeck told investigators that suspect Chai Vang turned around after a verbal exchange with a hunting group and began shooting his rifle.

Vang is suspected of killing six deer hunters in the Wisconsin woods over the weekend.

Chai Vang is accused of killing six deer hunters and wounding two more in a dispute over a hunting platform on private property during the opening weekend of deer season.

Vang claimed he started shooting only after one of the hunters shot at him and missed. Hesebeck said his companion Terry Willers returned fire after Vang shot but missed. His version also makes no mention of the racial slurs Vang claims the group used.

Both accounts agree that Vang shot at the others as more people from the deer camp arrived at the scene.

Hesebeck was released Tuesday from a hospital after treatment for a shoulder wound.

Military records obtained by The Associated Press show that Vang, a Hmong immigrant, was a member of the California National Guard 1989 to 1995, earning a qualification as a sharpshooter.

He is being held on $2.5 million bond in the shootings.

Terry Willers, the only survivor who remains hospitalized following the fatal deer camp shooting, is improving.

Saint Joseph Hospital has upgraded Willers' condition from fair to good.

Authorities Also Look At 2001 Hunter Slaying

Clark County, Wisconsin's sheriff said his detectives "jumped on it right away" when trying to determine any possible link between the fatal Sawyer County, Wis., shootings and the 2001 death of a hunter near Neillsville, Wis.

Sheriff Louis Rosandich said the homicide of Jim Southworth in November of 2001 has not been forgotten by area citizens or anyone else. Southworth was hunting alone on family land when he was shot twice in the back.

Witnesses reported a late 1980s-model Nisson or Chevrolet truck near the scene of the shooting. Three occupants in the truck were described as Asian. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports that Vang owned a 1987 Nissan pickup.

Authorities have said Vang was hunting with two other people on Sunday before he wandered onto private property. The other two people have not been found.

Something is fishy here nad it isn’t dead fish.  This is why I arrest and disarm all found trespassers on my property.  If everything works out alright I can always drop the charges afterwards.  Lawdog
 

[Ramrod]

Lawdog, I don't think a guy like Vang would give you the opportunity to arrest and disarm him. Not picking on you, but that macho cop attitude only works with law abiding citizens. Like me

[victorcharlie]

Lawdog, are you suggesting we make a citizens arrest on trespassers?  I suspect that if I were to try to disarm one of the rednecks around here, I might wind up like Vangs victims.......or like Vang himself......I suggest the best thing to do is to call the cops and don't confront the trespasser......Vang, at least for the first victim, might have felt like his life was threatened, if one of the victims fired a shot.....no one will ever be able to explain what happened, or why, but there is lessons to be learned here.......treat all men with respect and dignity, expect back what you give out.....An armed society is a polite society?

This didn't have to happen, 6 people are dead and Vang's life is ruined....many families now morn their loss......

This situation could have and should have been avoided......

[Hellrazor]

The pathetic part out of this is some lawyer will try to justify it because race played a part in previous altercations. If that doesn't work, insanity plea. I am willing to bet there will not be any meaningfull justice served here. In todays wonderfull society, its always someone elses fault.

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

   Take heed.  Nobody is allowed to make a citizen's arrest on a trespasser.  Not the owner, not a tenant, and certainly not someone with a mere hunting lease.  I know that this may sound strange, but ya see, the reason that we have all of these sheriffs and policemen is that they are the arm of the State that is empowered to exercise police power and use force when necesssary.  

    If you try to make an unlawful citizen's arrest, then you will be committing the following felonies:  (i) assault, probably with a deadly weapon, (ii) criminal battery, if you touch him with anything, and (iii)  unlawful detainer (i.e. kidnappping).  Try this stuff, and in many states the  trespasser may be allowed to use deadly force against you.  (Not to mention filing a civil suit against you to recover big time money).

   Now I am not saying that you can't identify yourself, and demand that he leave the property.  And I am not saying that if he takes action against you, that creates an immediate risk of death or serious bodily injury, that you cannot  use a lawful exercise of self defense.

   But what I am saying is that if he doesn't take such action against you, the only thing you are allowed to do is to call the sheriff or police.  Of course, if you are the property owner or tenant, you may also be able to file a civil suit against him, for trespass, and try to prove some money damages resulting from his trespass, which will be almost nil.

   Just some things to keep in mind.

Big Paulie

[Siskiyou]

BigPaulie:  Take heed this is a big country with 50 different state penal codes.  I am not familiar with the Wisconsin penal code so I cannot address the issue in that state.  

The process in areas I have worked is a citizen can make an arrest.  A deputy will take the person into his/her custody.  Most departments have what they call a "Citizens Arrest " form.  The arresting citizen must fill out this form, and sign it.  This covers the deputy and the department.  This is the start of the paper trail.  Many times the deputy will advise the citizen to forgo the arrest and have the citizen sign a compliant at the DA's office.  This reduces the exposer of the citizen and the officer to a false arrest charge, and provides a level of legal review.

A citizens arrest is a very serious step.  Like a law enforcement officer a citizen can face serious problems if they make a false citizen's arrest.  They can be charged with a crime.  They are responsible for the safety of the person they arrest.  If that person requires medical attention they could be held responsible for all cost.

Law Enforcement has learned the timing of an arrest is very important.  A injured suspect is in the hospital.  In many cases the agency will tell the press they are still investigating.  What Law Enforcement is waiting for is the suspect to be released from the hospital.  Otherwise the LE agency maybe liable for the hospital bill.