Author Topic: Thinking about a .223 - Tikka or Savage? (Read 2111 times)

farmplinker · « **on:** April 10, 2004, 06:18:47 AM »

I'm thinking about buying a .223 rifle. At this point, I've kind of narrowed my choices down to a Tikka T3 Hunter or a Savage 11G Accu-Trigger, both with blue barrels and wood stocks. I can buy the Tikka for $500 or the Savage for $385. Is the Tikka worth an extra $115?

I want to be able to use it for groundhog or varmint hunting, which means no semi-automatic action here in PA. So, I'm not interested in a semi-auto like a Mini-14 or "black gun".

The reason I've narrowed down to the Tikka and Savage are that they are both relatively light weight, and both reportedly known for their accuracy and good triggers. I did have the CZ 527 American on my list, but I don't like their "backward" safety because I'll be using the gun to train my kids. I also had the Howa 1500 on my list, but I took it off because it weighs a pound more. Any thoughts on these two in addition to the Tikka and Savage? Any others I should consider? I don't really want a Remington; I have several Remingtons and don't really want another.

I welcome all comments and reviews. Thanks.

Sigma · « **Reply #1 on:** April 10, 2004, 06:59:29 AM »

I would go for the Tikka. Same barrel as on the $1000.00+ Sako's, free-floating, the same trigger assembly as a Sako and good wood-to-metal fit. Guns are guaranteed to shoot 1" or better out of the box. Some plastic parts (magazine, floor plate and bolt shroud) but the fit and quality thereof is good. The guns are light and well made for the price. Nice checkering. Target crown. If you can pick one up for $500.00, I'd say go for it.

On the Savage, one thing: the barrel-to-receiver lock down screw with the longer threads extending just turns me off. Makes the barrel assembly IMO look like something found in Home Depot's electrical conduit section. If you can get past that, the Savages do have a reputation for accuracy and the price is hard to beat.

Regards

Sigma · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2004, 07:30:59 AM »

Correction: on my last post I meant the barrel-to-receiver locknut not lock down screw. Either way, it allows to exchange the barrel with use of a wrench, but extreme caution must be exercised when doing so, since headspace is altered. This should be left up to a competent gunsmith.

Regards

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** April 10, 2004, 01:54:37 PM »

farmplinker,

Go with the Savage. While the Tikka is a good rifle the Savage rifles are proving to be more accurate out of the box. Also there is NO WRITTEN GUARANTEE with Sako/Tikka. No one can show you a written guarantee either. In fact it is not a guarantee at all. It is Sako's POLICY that no rifle will leave their factory unless it shoots MOA. But I have seen a few that didn't meet Sako's policy. Right now Savage is turning out quality firearms with one of the best triggers going today. The AccuTriger is the talk of the shooting community and proving it is everything Savage said it was going to be. One last point in favor of the Savage is it is American made. Small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog

Sigma · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2004, 05:30:51 PM »

Of course Tikka/Sako would not be able to include a written guarantee with each rifle. Why should they? Once the rifle leaves the factory and gets into the end-user's hands, there are too many variables which affect perceived accuracy: scopes and mounting, are screws tight, type of ammo used, ability of the shooter to reproduce conditions such as were used during factory tests of each rifle. You would expect the manufacturer to take the utmost care with that. And Tikka does. That's why they are bold enough to include a test target with each rifle. Remember the trigger is only one component which affects accuracy. I agree the Accutrigger is innovative, but IMO doesn't provide enough pull to recommend the rifle over others.

If American made is what you're looking for, why, then Tikka/Sako obviously loses immediately, but not based on inbiased evalutions.

Regards

DonT · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2004, 06:02:42 PM »

Well I liked my Savage 12Bvss so well in .223 that I went out and bought a matching one in .308. I know this is not the gun you are looking at but you might want to consider it as it has the laminated wood stock, fluted SS barrel. Very nice guns and would work very well for varminting. Just scope it, put a bipod on it, and shoot it, and shoot it and shoot it.

Both guns were MOA (and a bit better on good days) right outa the box. Nothin against the Tikka mind you but I don't own 2 of them.. :-D

DonT

azshooter · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2004, 06:32:04 PM »

I was in the same delimma late last year- Tikka or Savage. I went with the Savage for these reasons

1) Tikka had the plastic magazine - yuck
2) Savage had the accutrigger - which is fantastic. Don't discount how a trigger can make you shoot better.
3) Savage is American made
4) Savage accuracy reputation - which you can include mine in the list of sub 1 MOA shooters.
5) Bolt shape - I just don't like the Tikka bolt
6) Standard rings for the Savage

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #7 on:** April 11, 2004, 09:56:52 AM »

Tikka----the Savage is not worthy of consideration due to its horrible action----I mean not just bad----but flat out NASTY.

Lawdog · « **Reply #8 on:** April 11, 2004, 10:16:50 AM »

Sigma,

Quote

Of course Tikka/Sako would not be able to include a written guarantee with each rifle. Why should they?

Because Weatherby DOES and they are the only firearms company that does so(and that includes their Howa made Vanguard rifles too). Also people need to realize that Sako does not guarantee the accuracy of their rifles. What Sako says is just a statement of policy that can be changed quicker than some people change their minds. I AM NOT SAYING that Sako/Tikka are not good firearms as they ARE, I own a couple myself, what I am saying is if Sako wants to say their rifles shoot MOA then they should back it up with a guarantee and not just a policy. It would carry more weight that way. Small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog

azshooter · « **Reply #9 on:** April 11, 2004, 10:29:34 AM »

Quote from: Omaha-BeenGlockin

Tikka----the Savage is not worthy of consideration due to its horrible action----I mean not just bad----but flat out NASTY.

My new Savage model 12 is from the factory as smooth as anything comming from Remington, Winchester or Ruger. I would suggest the original poster put their hands on a new model 10 or 12 before listening to sillyness like this.

Kentone · « **Reply #10 on:** April 11, 2004, 11:58:55 AM »

Hi Guys,

I have a Savage Model 12, heavy,fluted,stainless 26 inch barrel.
The gun has a laminated stock and is pleasing to the eye.
It shoots the 308 winchester round and shoots much better than
I can.
When looking for a 308 heavy barrel rifle.
I took home the Savage because of price and reputation.
It was a wise choice.

Take Care

Sigma · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2004, 01:22:58 PM »

Click here for Weatherby's "Accuracy Guarantee" statement:

http://www.weatherby.com/vanguard/advantage.shtml

You will find that WEATHERBY states the Tikka T3 comes with WRITTEN accuracy guarantee but with NO FACTORY-SHOT TARGET.

You would expect Wetherby to be very careful when making accuracy statements on the Internet. Or is this information wrong or outdated?

Currently, my understanding is that all T3's are currently shipped with a Factory-Shot Target, 1" group or better, which IMO is the best "guarantee". Note that Weatherby "guarantees" only 1.5" groups or better compared to Tikka.

Regards

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2004, 01:34:59 PM »

Nothing silly about it.

YES---go look at a Savage---better yet take it out of the stock-----then you can see for yourself what a true garbage action is.

Not to mention those stupid blocks on the back of the action--that have a tendency to come off and bind up the whole action.

The Accu-trigger is a joke too----why not make it right the first time instead of having some stupid add-on blade in the middle of the trigger???

azshooter · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2004, 05:15:18 PM »

Quote from: Omaha-BeenGlockin

Nothing silly about it.

YES---go look at a Savage---better yet take it out of the stock-----then you can see for yourself what a true garbage action is.

Not to mention those stupid blocks on the back of the action--that have a tendency to come off and bind up the whole action.

The Accu-trigger is a joke too----why not make it right the first time instead of having some stupid add-on blade in the middle of the trigger???

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Here is a 2002 review on a Savage model 12 - happens to be .223 with the accutrigger. It shot 3/4 to 1 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards regardless of ammo brand and weight. My model 12 has shot about the same way - everything I have fed it so far it has shot well. They are pretty darn nice shooters for a piece of junk.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/techside/savage_0813/

MI VHNTR · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2004, 05:18:44 PM »

The Tikka has a "one size fits all" action that is totally rediculous. They just introduced it and now it's supposed to be a great thing. No thanks! It's a giant step backwards. It does cut corners for them though and it fits right in with the plastic on it too. Savage was smart enough to do away with this one size fits all action years ago. It seems that American hunters/shooters didn't like it. MI VHNTR

Doghunter · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2004, 07:30:51 PM »

If you want the the best of the two-- go with the tika --It's just a better rifle. The old saying" you get what you pay for" is never more true than here.

Zachary · « **Reply #16 on:** April 12, 2004, 03:43:43 AM »

Quote from: farmplinker

I'm thinking about buying a .223 rifle. At this point, I've kind of narrowed my choices down to a Tikka T3 Hunter or a Savage 11G Accu-Trigger, both with blue barrels and wood stocks. I can buy the Tikka for $500 or the Savage for $385. Is the Tikka worth an extra $115?

I want to be able to use it for groundhog or varmint hunting, which means no semi-automatic action here in PA. So, I'm not interested in a semi-auto like a Mini-14 or "black gun".

The reason I've narrowed down to the Tikka and Savage are that they are both relatively light weight, and both reportedly known for their accuracy and good triggers. I did have the CZ 527 American on my list, but I don't like their "backward" safety because I'll be using the gun to train my kids. I also had the Howa 1500 on my list, but I took it off because it weighs a pound more. Any thoughts on these two in addition to the Tikka and Savage? Any others I should consider? I don't really want a Remington; I have several Remingtons and don't really want another.

I welcome all comments and reviews. Thanks.

Both the Tikka and Savage are very accurate rifles...All this despite the fact that the quality of the Tikka is light years ahead of the Savage, the Savage is still just as accurate, if not more accurate, than the Tikka.

Some interesting notes.....

The Tikkas have shorter barrels - about 22", while you can get longer barrels for the .223 with Savage.

Also, the T3s have a one-size-fits-all action - meaning that your .223 cartridge will be placed in a long action - action and the magazine simply holds the shorter .223 in place.

As was stated, the Savage has the accu-trigger which I have been told is wonderful. HOWEVER, Tikka has one of, if not THE BEST, factory adjustable triggers around.

Zachary

Lawdog · « **Reply #17 on:** April 12, 2004, 09:14:44 AM »

Sigma,

Quote

Click here for Weatherby's "Accuracy Guarantee" statement:

http://www.weatherby.com/vanguard/advantage.shtml

You will find that WEATHERBY states the Tikka T3 comes with WRITTEN accuracy guarantee but with NO FACTORY-SHOT TARGET.

You would expect Wetherby to be very careful when making accuracy statements on the Internet. Or is this information wrong or outdated?

Currently, my understanding is that all T3's are currently shipped with a Factory-Shot Target, 1" group or better, which IMO is the best "guarantee". Note that Weatherby "guarantees" only 1.5" groups or better compared to Tikka.

Weatherby knows about the mistake(many Weatherby owners have notified them to this fact, including me) in their comparison ad on their web site. Of course everyone knows that Weatherby is about the slowest in changing their web site too. Now to put this to rest. SHOW ME a WRITTEN ACCURACY GUARANTEE from Sako/Tikka. Post the web site address where I can view it or post a picture of it. Small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog

Zachary · « **Reply #18 on:** April 12, 2004, 10:24:10 AM »

Just to step in a bit - I too was surprised that even Weatherby stated that Tikka had a written guaranty. I say this because I have never, ever, seen a Tikka written guaranty - and I'm a Tikka guy.

Yes, Tikkas a very accurate. And yes, they shoot 1" groups or better (assuming you do your part), but I honestly don't think that Tikka has a written guaranty.

Zachary

Sigma · « **Reply #19 on:** April 13, 2004, 05:59:38 AM »

Lawdog,

You said:

Quote

Now to put this to rest. SHOW ME a WRITTEN ACCURACY GUARANTEE from Sako/Tikka.

Your capital letters underlined and bold make it look like you're yelling. I hope that's not the case.

I never stated that Sako/Tikka had a written guarantee. One of my posts said:

Quote

Of course Tikka/Sako would not be able to include a written guarantee with each rifle. Why should they? Once the rifle leaves the factory and gets into the end-user's hands, there are too many variables which affect perceived accuracy:

You replied:

Quote

Because Weatherby DOES and they are the only firearms company that does so(and that includes their Howa made Vanguard rifles too).

I then went to the Weatherby website to verify and noticed also that Tikka was listed as having a written accuracy guarantee.

I commented:

Quote

You would expect Wetherby to be very careful when making accuracy statements on the Internet. Or is this information wrong or outdated?

I think my question was valid, the Weatherby website displayed contradicting information on the Tikka.

You replied:

Quote

Weatherby knows about the mistake(many Weatherby owners have notified them to this fact, including me) in their comparison ad on their web site. Of course everyone knows that Weatherby is about the slowest in changing their web site too.

To be sure about the existence/nonexistence of a written accuracy guarantee, I contacted Sako/Tikka and received this reply via email within one day:

Quote

Thank you for your inquiry.
As you already knew, all Sako and Tikka rifles are tested to perform the precision of at least 1 MOA before leaving the factory. Nevertheless, we do not offer a written certificate of the accuracy due to the fact that so many factors may affect the accuracy ( weather conditions, ammunition, shooter's skills ), which means that at the end we cannot not promise that anyone at any condition will get the best out of the rifle.

Kind regards,

I am pleased to see that my thoughts on the Weatherby written accuracy guarantee are right in line with the Sako/Tikka factory.

I hope this sets things straight. All things considered, I would would value the Sako/Tikka statement as being straightforward and honest. I'm not knocking Weatherby, but personally, Weatherby's written accuracy guarantee does nothing for me. I agree with the above view of Sako/Tikka. I would prefer a rifle that comes with a factory-shot target of 1 MOA or less over a rifle that comes with a factory target 1.5" or less plus the written guarantee. I suspect Sako/Tikka is aware of that and knows what the shooting community looks for.

The only paper I'm interested in is the factory-shot paper target, give the paper guarantee to the Lawyers.

Regards

Zachary · « **Reply #20 on:** April 13, 2004, 08:14:59 AM »

Quote from: Sigma

Your capital letters underlined and bold make it look like you're yelling. I hope that's not the case.

Although I am a moderator of this section, about 99% of my participation is just like any other member. However, this is one of those 1% times that I'll put on my moderator hat and just make a comment.

I understand the point about the use of capital letters, underlining, bolt, italics, etc. However, I want everyone to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt. As such, despite what may seem to be yelling, etc., always remain calm and try to chose words carefully.

This is not to say that anyone has done anything wrong. However, I have seen little things like this snowball and, in such instances, it's just not worth it.

Again, no one has really done anything wrong. All I am saying is remember to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and, even if someone happens to be rude (that is to say if a particular member finds a comment to be rude, etc.) then you should first contact the other person by PM, and, if that doesn't work, then contact me or Graybeard.

I don't know if this little rule that I just made up contradicts any of GB's rules. If they do, then GB's rule take priority over any guidelines that I give.

I thank all of you for your attention. :wink:

Zachary

Sigma · « **Reply #21 on:** April 13, 2004, 09:30:58 AM »

Zachary,

Thanks for stepping in. I agree with you. I simply wanted to make sure that nobody was upset on the other end. You're right, if that happens, it's simply not worth it. Nonetheless, I remain very impressed with this forum and its members.

Lawdog,

All due respect to you. :-)

Regards

azshooter · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2004, 05:02:17 PM »

While you are considering Tikka - read this thread

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=29419

MGMorden · « **Reply #23 on:** April 14, 2004, 09:53:23 AM »

Add my Savage 110 .30-06 to the list of sub-MOA Savages. The rifle shoots great. I certainly can't find anything wrong with it. The rifle is solid, reliable, and shoots much better than I need it to. To me that's all I want out of a rifle. If you're looking at it from a purely utilitarian standpoint I just don't see the logic in going w/ the Tikka.

jvs · « **Reply #24 on:** April 15, 2004, 04:47:16 AM »

Quote from: Zachary

Although I am a moderator of this section, about 99% of my participation is just like any other member. However, this is one of those 1% times that I'll put on my moderator hat and just make a comment.

I understand the point about the use of capital letters, underlining, bolt, italics, etc. However, I want everyone to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt. As such, despite what may seem to be yelling, etc., always remain calm and try to chose words carefully.

This is not to say that anyone has done anything wrong. However, I have seen little things like this snowball and, in such instances, it's just not worth it.

Zachary[/quote]

Just be glad they aren't discussing Pick-Up Trucks and Women.

Can you imagine how it would be if Chevy, Ford, Dodge and Blondes, Brunettes and Redheads were involved?

Be glad it it was only Rifles. :grin:

snak3y3s · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2004, 04:36:59 PM »

i was looking for a good cheaper 223 rifle and i was wondering if anyone could give me some good sites to find them if you can thanks for the help.

longwinters · « **Reply #26 on:** May 09, 2004, 08:09:01 AM »

Snak, usually when looking for guns I just type in the name/model in a search engine and go from there. If I am serious about buying I start looking at gun shops/sports stores etc... in the area or in my travels. If you have specific questions you could ask them here or on other web sites that are out there . . . personally I like this one the best :grin: I know some order guns on line, but I never have. I would rather drive a couple hundred miles than go thru the hassle of the additional paperwork.

long

Jboscobuys · « **Reply #27 on:** June 12, 2004, 09:06:41 PM »

My vote.... GET THE TIKKA... it will put a smile on your face. It's a damn fine gun. It's by far, my favorite.

Mauser · « **Reply #28 on:** June 13, 2004, 03:08:38 AM »

I own a Tikka WH in 308-I initially bought it because I had never before seen a left-handed factory short action rifle. I'm glad I did 'cause it has turned out to be the best rifle I've ever owned "out of the box". I say this after owning, presently and in the past, Ruger, Remington, Weatherby, Winchester, and Savage bolt guns. That said, I don't have a T3 and don't know much about them. If the quality for the price stays the same as the WH I don't see how you'll go wrong.

I have a buddy who has a Savage 110 in 7mm Mag. It is an OK rifle for the price. It is in no way in the league of the Tikka WH. He is going to have to replace the trigger and the stock looks like it came from an old barn that was ripped down. Incidentally I have a Savage in 17 HMR that looks much the same way, but I only paid $180.00 for it and for that money a lot can be overlooked especially on a plinker.

As for the American made thing, I believe that a consumer does no favors for manufacturers by buying products that are less than that manufacturer can do. I think the American car companies are making great vehicles now-I just checked out a new Chevy Malibu and it seems to be every bit as good as any Honda or Toyota I've seen. This came about because of competition from the Japanese. After all I've observed personally and from others about our domestic gun-makers there is a lot to be desired quality wise. Buy what YOU like, not what you think others may think about your purchase.

Because you asked, however: Get the Tikka.

longwinters · « **Reply #29 on:** June 13, 2004, 11:46:19 AM »

I was just reading a "The American Rifleman mag. " They had an article on Tikka rifles, their history etc... Recently, in the last couple of years, the British 1000 yd championship was won by a guy shooting a Tikka Continential in the 6.5 x something caliber. Tikka rifles do shoot well, and even though the Savage rifles shoot well also, I have had both in my hands and I would take the workmanship of the Tikka over the Savage. I tried to convince myself to get a Savage... but just could not do it. Of course this is only my subjective opinion.

Long