40 S&W going the way of the wild goose?

[AtlLaw]

I was looking at reviews of a pistol I thought may be a good EDC.  Don't ask me what it was, old age faulty memory and all that...    But I do believe it was a police trade-in.

Anyway it was a 40 S&W caliber handgun; a cartridge I have no experience with.  In the PD I carried a S&W M10 in 38 Spl. for most of my career. And those had to be loaded with 158 gr. RN factory ammo.  So even though I heard the .40 S&W termed the "40 short and weak," I figured it had to be better then the 38 Spl.!  And also  bigger and better then the 9mm auto's we went to just before I retired. Once retired and given a choice of what to carry I went to a 45 ACP S&W Shield. 

But this author indicated that the 40 S&W has fallen out of favor and is on it's way to obscurity!  I think he said something about this being due to the advances in 9mm ammunition.

Now I don't take gun writer's words as Gospel but it got me thinking.  Has anyone seen any indication of the 40's decline in popularity?

[JustaShooter]

I have, in both civilian and law enforcement use.  Many LEAs have been dropping the .40S&W for years and going to the 9mm.  And during the last ammo shortage, .40 ammo was hard to find at any price. 

But there are still plenty of folks who prefer it, so I don't think we're ready to read its eulogy just yet.

[Graybeard]

Police departments are dropping it like a hot horseshoe. Too many women and sissy men can't take the recoil of it. That's the REAL reason the FBI dropped it and went back to the 9mm. They are hiring too many folks who've never fired a handgun until joining and they can't take the recoil.

I'm old and worn out, 80 now, and my hands are eat up with arthritis. I can't take the recoil of it in a S&W Shield, found that out the hard way. But I can still shoot my two full size S&W M&P .40s. Recoil from it is sharp, more so than the .45 acp which to me is easier to handle than the '40 in same size guns.

Just my opinion but I like it better than the 9mm or the .45acp as a defense gun.

[Dee]

Departments don't weedout non-hackers anymore. They pass new policies, and re-equip. There are damn few women cops that can handle a grown man that doesn't want to be arrested. Take away the tazers, and pepper spray, and it drops to near zero.
Sadly there are even more men that fall into the same group. With all the electronic technology people go into law enforcement thinking they'll never have to actually fight anyone. Experience shows that pepper spray, and tazers don't work on everyone.
I remember the days when rookie cops lasted 3 or 4 days on the street, and quit when they found out that not everyone was afraid of the cops, nor respected that badge.
If you ever backed down, everyone in the county knew about it in a week, and your career was over.

[ulav8r]

5 or 6 years ago my sister was looking for a pistol more powerful than her .22.  I let her shoot my .380 Llama, and my 40 S&W Firestar.  The two guns are about the same size and she preferred the Firestar.  She ended up buying a 9mm and later a 32 Auto.  Both were used guns that she thought she got good buys on from private sellers.


Personally, I can tell the 40 has a little more recoil but is not at all objectional.  I bought a new 9mm about 4 years ago but have not fired it yet, so can't really compare.

[Lloyd Smale]

not going out of style at my house. it and the 44 mag are my two favorite handgun rounds. i chuckle at the better bullets for 9s making them equal. same bullets are available tor the 40 and even the 45. dont know what world the 9 is equal to a 40 but its not the one i live in! i shoot more 9s than anything but because its cheap! uses less powder and lead to plink and shoot 10k over the summer and it adds up.  but it aint no 40. 40 isnt going anywhere. millions of just glock 22's and 23's out there being shot. keep in mind 90 percent of all those law enforcement 40s that departments wasted money getting rid of so girls and wimps that cant shoot anyway dont cry are still out there being used. isnt like they were destroying them. ive got two police trade in 22's and 4 police trade in smith 38s. i hpoe they get bored with 9s and switch to something different. i love half priced police trade ins!

[AtlLaw]

That's the REAL reason the FBI dropped it and went back to the 9mm. They are hiring too many folks who've never fired a handgun until joining and they can't take the recoil.

I've never been all that impressed by the FBI.  Most of the agents I knew were legends in their own mind...    And as far as the agency's choice of handgun calibers go, they jump around more on what they consider the perfect caliber then I swapped perfect girlfriends back in the day!  Remember the 10mm?
Believe me, I could go on and on about FBI's "policies" as well as the other agencies/departments that take anything the FBI says as if it came down from the Mount. 

I'm old and worn out, 80 now, and my hands are eat up with arthritis. I can't take the recoil of it in a S&W Shield, ... Recoil from it is sharp, more so than the .45 acp...  I like it better than the 9mm or the .45acp as a defense gun.

Well, I'll be 80 next month but fortunately (?) the arthur is/was relegated to my hips.    Which means I have to stand and fight should the need arise!     Fortunately I never considered the recoil from the .45 Shield that bad.  Nor any of the 9mm's with the latest hot SD loads. Maybe I'll rent a .40 at the gun club just the have something as a base line.    But tell me, if you don't mind, why do you prefer the 40 over the 45?

I remember the days when rookie cops lasted 3 or 4 days on the street, and quit when they found out that not everyone was afraid of the cops, nor respected that badge. If you ever backed down, everyone in the county knew about it in a week, and your career was over.

Amen!    Made me remember when I first got on the street.  As a rookie roustabout my Lt. or Sgt. would consistently assign me to the worst beats in the City.  Usually the ones containing at least one housing project.    Learned a lot about big city policing and I never felt outgunned... at first!

[Graybeard]

I like the .40 over the .45 cuz it has enough velocity I am confident of good bullet expansion. I'm just not fully convinced the .45 acp JHPs will expand going so slowly. I kinda like a defensive round to have 1000 fps or a bit more for that reason. Most all .40 rounds do that, only the lighter weight .45s do.

Having said that my two S&W M&P .40s serve as home defense guns. Both are loaded with Speer Gold Dot 165 JHPs. Both have night sights and CTC lasers on them. My S&W M&P .45 is a truck gun but I pretty much never put it on my hip. These days I most always carry a S&W Shield EZ loaded with Speer 115 Gold Dot JHPs. I'm toying with going to the S&W Equalizer which is the same as the EZ but uses either 10, 13 or 15 round magazines. For met he 15s are too long and the 13s are just right for my hand.

I have a S&W Shield Plus which takes the same mags so I have lots of mags for it if I do decide to go with it. I should just carry the Plus but the holster that is supposed to fit both it and standard Shield didn't fit quire properly so I just haven't yet decided to trust it. The gun hung up in it and wouldn't come out. I think I have it fixed now that I've modified it a bit. It seems to come out OK now.

I should go back to a revolver really as I no longer have the hand strength to rack the slides even on the EZ. I have to shift the gun to left hand and use right hand to rack the slide.

[Lloyd Smale]

im torn on the 40 vs 45 thing. i like them both and both a hands down better than a 9, like bill said the 40 has more velocity and will expand. but the 45 is as big as some 40 bullets expand to right out of the box and if you research bullets there are some reliable expanders in 45. personally i can attest to gold dots and xtps. both expand well at 800fps. now im not a ballistician so i would only be guessing in saying the 40 might give a slightly bigger wound channel do to its higher velocity. like i say im torn. for a fighting pistol that concealment isnt an issue imo the glock 22 is the best thing a man could have on his hip. but for concealed carry my 2 favorites are the glock 30 and shield 45. glock holds more rounds but is thicker and a bit harder to conceal. the shield 45 on the other hand is no harder to conceal than a shield 9 which makes it a no brainer. i do though own lots of 9s. including 3 shield 9s. i like 9s because there cheap to shoot and practice with. what my dream ccw handgun would be is if glock made a 43 sized pistol in 40! make me that and alot of my guns would collect dust! i really like my 4. i like it better than the shields and its the only 9 you will see me actually carry but its still a 9

[Graybeard]

Just read an article in a magazine last night on the 9 vs 45 issue. It was about some street cop who carried a .45 and lots of spare mags. He had gotten into a gun fight a good while back. His .45 was loaded with 230 JHP Gold Dots. He fired 33 rounds in the gun fight and the other guy over 40 rounds. He put 14 of those 230 JHP GD bullets into the perp and the guy was still firing at him. He finallly managed to put 3 more to the head/face area but only when he put one in the brain did the fight end.


It was about him switching back now from the .45 to the 9mm.

I think knowing more of that story would be interesting but they said he put bullets in the guy's heart, lungs and liver and he was still in the fight until a brain shot took him out.

I guess that's why I worry about a 230 JHP of any variety expanding. If they had been expanding I think the perp would have gone down sooner.

[Lloyd Smale]

counting on a one shot stop with any caliber handgun is for the movies. i was taught to keep shooting till either im out of ammo or the perp isnt even twitching. ive never shot anyone with a gold dot 45acp but did do penetration testing in ballistic gell and wet print and ive yet to see one not expand. add to that like i said. it starts out as big as an expanded 9mm

[Dee]

Just read an article in a magazine last night on the 9 vs 45 issue. It was about some street cop who carried a .45 and lots of spare mags. He had gotten into a gun fight a good while back. His .45 was loaded with 230 JHP Gold Dots. He fired 33 rounds in the gun fight and the other guy over 40 rounds. He put 14 of those 230 JHP GD bullets into the perp and the guy was still firing at him. He finallly managed to put 3 more to the head/face area but only when he put one in the brain did the fight end.


It was about him switching back now from the .45 to the 9mm.

I think knowing more of that story would be interesting but they said he put bullets in the guy's heart, lungs and liver and he was still in the fight until a brain shot took him out.

I guess that's why I worry about a 230 JHP of any variety expanding. If they had been expanding I think the perp would have gone down sooner.

Bill I've posted about this on other threads. REGARDLESS OF VELOCITY many times it depends on what the recipient of the rounds is wearing.
HOLLOW POINTS "generally" operate on hydrolics, i.e. liquid, or near liquid tissue, like muscle tissue. If someone shot is wearing multi layers of clothing, or certain types of fabrics, the HOLLOW POINT BULLETS act like a  cookie cutter on the fabrics and those fabrics can fill the HOLLOW POINT with fabric material basically turning the HOLLOW POINT into a BALL ROUND.

I've seen this on numerous occasions in actual shootings and autopsy reports. On the other hand, a friend once worked a shooting where the officer hit the perp in a non fatal leg shot. it was a one shot stop, and the perp was dead right there. He immediately went into shock, and died.

The best 1 shot stopping round in law enforcement was, and still is, the  125 grain SEMI JACKETED hollow point in 357 magnum. The key to this round is SEMI JACKETED coupled with just the right amount of velocity, and the ability to break bones.

Also take into account that Bill Hickok was considered one of the more deadly pistoleeros and he carried 36 caliber black powder  Colt Navies, shooting lead ball ammo. It ain't what you get, as much as it is where you get it. .

[Graybeard]

In the article I read the perp took bullets to heart, lungs and liver and just kept on keeping on shooting at the cop. Maybe he was hopped up on drugs, dunno as it didn't say. Just that the cop put 14 of those big bullets into him to include holes in heart, lungs and liver and then it took 3 to the head to put him down and only the final one into the brain ended it.

[Dee]

Well Bill, several years ago country music star Trace Atkins ex-wife shot him directly in the heart and he's still kicking out songs.

An acquaintance that worked for Amarillo Police Department made contact with a nut bag in downtown Amarillo. The perp took his riot baton away from him and was pounding the daylights out of him with it. Back then the department issue was a Smith 41 magnum. Responding officers running towards him said everytime that 41 magnum went off, goose down from the perps vest blew out his back. 4 TIMES!
By the time they fought him and got him cuffed, he was dead. Autopsy revealed that 3 of the 4 shots were absolutely fatal. Obviously, the pcp perp didn't get the memo.
So what am I getting at? There are 2 kinds of stops in a shooting. #1. The physiological stop, and #2. The psychological stop.

The only weapons available that have actual guaranteed knock down power, and 100% stopping power, are manufacturers by Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, ect

[JustaShooter]

Bill I've posted about this on other threads. REGARDLESS OF VELOCITY many times it depends on what the recipient of the rounds is wearing.
HOLLOW POINTS "generally" operate on hydrolics, i.e. liquid, or near liquid tissue, like muscle tissue. If someone shot is wearing multi layers of clothing, or certain types of fabrics, the HOLLOW POINT BULLETS act like a  cookie cutter on the fabrics and those fabrics can fill the HOLLOW POINT with fabric material basically turning the HOLLOW POINT into a BALL ROUND.

Although that was true in the past, modern hollow point design and the materials they are made from perform admirably even on heavy/thick clothing.  Of course, it's generally the premium self-defense manufacturers that make them this way, brands like Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T-Series, etc.  They are specifically designed and tested to perform on a wide range of coverings, and even perform well through barriers like vehicle glass.

[Dee]

Bill I've posted about this on other threads. REGARDLESS OF VELOCITY many times it depends on what the recipient of the rounds is wearing.
HOLLOW POINTS "generally" operate on hydrolics, i.e. liquid, or near liquid tissue, like muscle tissue. If someone shot is wearing multi layers of clothing, or certain types of fabrics, the HOLLOW POINT BULLETS act like a  cookie cutter on the fabrics and those fabrics can fill the HOLLOW POINT with fabric material basically turning the HOLLOW POINT into a BALL ROUND.

Although that was true in the past, modern hollow point design and the materials they are made from perform admirably even on heavy/thick clothing.  Of course, it's generally the premium self-defense manufacturers that make them this way, brands like Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T-Series, etc.  They are specifically designed and tested to perform on a wide range of coverings, and even perform well through barriers like vehicle glass.

Ok, if you say so. Not to argue, but have you seen actual shootins, autopsys, and performance analysts in actual street shootings concerning these bullets you've named, or are you going by as advertised?. There's a huge difference between manufacturers testing and actual street application.

Here are 3 feral hogs I killed last year in my corals. I hit 8 but only killed these 3. The pistol is a Sig P365 X Macro, the ammo was GoldDot, and the range was about 6 feet as they ran past. Two bullets were recovered. Neither expanded, the hollow points were full of hide, and hair. They were laying on my lamp table next to my recliner. My darling wife moved them but if I can find them I'll post a picture.

[Lloyd Smale]

best answer to the question

The only weapons available that have actual guaranteed knock down power, and 100% stopping power, are manufacturers by Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, ect

thats the best answer. people think guns like the 500 linebaugh hit like the hammer of thor. i shot a small 800lb bison cow with one of my 500s at 25 yards. shot it twice behind the shoulder as fast as i could shoot. the animal didnt flinch! matter of fact it didnt even quit eating. kept eating for about 30 seconds till it realized it was dead all the time blood pouring out. if you believe in actual knockdown power that doesnt exist do the old test i did for a buddy one day. hang a 100lb bag of corn, grain, quickcrete ect on a pole or tree limb and shoot it. i shot it that day with a full power 300wby using 165 interlocks. bag barely moved and shot with my 257 wby didnt move a bit. stopping power exists but the most powerful hands pale to something like a 308 0r 06. knock down power is something youll only see in movies

[Dixie-Dude]

A lot of hunters in Alaska are going with the 10mm with high capacity magazines.  It penetrates better than a 45acp, so use on a charging bear gives more rounds to try to hit the kill area.  I saw one guy using a picture of a charging bear on a plywood sled.  They used a snow mobile to pull it at 35 mph about what a bear would run.  He shot at it using a bolt action rifle, a lever action rifle, a pump shotgun, a 44mag double action, and a Glock 10mm.  They counted the shots hit in the kill area.  It was one that hit but not in the kill area with a bolt gun.  Two hits with a lever gun but no kill shots, one hit with the shotgun, no kill shot, two hits with 44 mag, close but no real kill.  11 hits with the 10mm with about 7 in the kill zone.  The charge was started at 35 yards and pulled toward the shooter.  Just not fast enough with only one or two shots hitting the bear picture.  10mm was faster and easier to handle.  Long guns had to be shouldered wasting a few seconds.  Handguns were better but the 44 rise had to be lowered for second shot.  10mm was faster getting off more rounds.  Rounds recommended were solids not hollow points, so as to penetrate deeper into the skull or chest.  The way the picture was drawn, head shots were about the only way to kit a kill area charging with his head down. 

So, the 10mm and the 40sw I think use the same bullets.  If the trend holds 10mm will be more common in bear country so 40sw bullets and cartridges will still be available for a long time regardless of whether M&P use either. 

Based on what I have read and seen, I think the Army should adapt the 10mm.  Better penetration alone with high capacity guns would help knock out some bad guys close up especially if they have some minimum body armor or heavy clothing.  But, unless things change, women might have a hard time handling the 10mm.  Off the front lines they can use the 9mm as is.     

[JustaShooter]

Ok, if you say so. Not to argue, but have you seen actual shootins, autopsys, and performance analysts in actual street shootings concerning these bullets you've named, or are you going by as advertised?. There's a huge difference between manufacturers testing and actual street application.

Going by independent testing, and evaluations which do include data from actual shootings. I'm not sure how results from feral hogs thick hide & hair play into effectiveness in SD situations with two-legged predators so I can't really comment on that but it is an interesting data point nonetheless.

[Lloyd Smale]

stopping a brown bear from a 35 yard charge before it could hurt you would require dees truck. i wouldnt even count on a car. id personaly feel much better with one shot  with a 475 or 500 linebaugh penetrating stem to stern than i would 2 full mags out of my 20 or 29. what you have with a 10mm is a semi auto heavy bullet 357, no more! id take a 4570 lever gun ANY DAY over that. comical thing is if that guy got off 11 HITS in about the 3 seconds it takes a bear to cover that distance he sure wasnt aiming, he was hosing. now take away that paper target and replace it with claws and teeth and the bear would have to eat around the s=== in his pants. comical thing was we did a charging bear shoot at a linebaugh seminar with some of the best handgun shooters in the country and just the pressure of other good shooters watch rattled 75% of the guys there and they didnt even make a bad hit. that includes some names youd recognize. didnt much matter what they shot. hers my admission of my results i got 2 shots off with my 500. only the first hit and it was a kill shot. with my 50ak 2 shots 1 non vital hit one kill zone. my 4570 3 shots 2 kill one non kill. i was one of only 6 guys that made 2 kill shots with any gun. we had an alaskan bear guide there that year and he was the only one that did it with any handgun and his was his 5.5 475 that looked like it was put in a cement mixer, his opinion was that theres an 80 percent chance that even us 6 would be dead before the bear was. his choice and his main back up gun was a model 70 458 cut to 16.5 in. second choice was a 4570 guide gun loaded with 500 grain cast. said the purpose of his handgun was its fast if hes in bed and other than that its only use is when hes on the ground and has lost his real gun! he did say there was use for smaller handguns. he said if the bear has you or its immanent use it on your self because it will be a much better way to go then being torn in half by those claws! ill trust his advice over some u-tube expert. hes been there and actually did it and more than once.

A lot of hunters in Alaska are going with the 10mm with high capacity magazines.  It penetrates better than a 45acp, so use on a charging bear gives more rounds to try to hit the kill area.  I saw one guy using a picture of a charging bear on a plywood sled.  They used a snow mobile to pull it at 35 mph about what a bear would run.  He shot at it using a bolt action rifle, a lever action rifle, a pump shotgun, a 44mag double action, and a Glock 10mm.  They counted the shots hit in the kill area.  It was one that hit but not in the kill area with a bolt gun.  Two hits with a lever gun but no kill shots, one hit with the shotgun, no kill shot, two hits with 44 mag, close but no real kill.  11 hits with the 10mm with about 7 in the kill zone.  The charge was started at 35 yards and pulled toward the shooter.  Just not fast enough with only one or two shots hitting the bear picture.  10mm was faster and easier to handle.  Long guns had to be shouldered wasting a few seconds.  Handguns were better but the 44 rise had to be lowered for second shot.  10mm was faster getting off more rounds.  Rounds recommended were solids not hollow points, so as to penetrate deeper into the skull or chest.  The way the picture was drawn, head shots were about the only way to kit a kill area charging with his head down. 

So, the 10mm and the 40sw I think use the same bullets.  If the trend holds 10mm will be more common in bear country so 40sw bullets and cartridges will still be available for a long time regardless of whether M&P use either. 

Based on what I have read and seen, I think the Army should adapt the 10mm.  Better penetration alone with high capacity guns would help knock out some bad guys close up especially if they have some minimum body armor or heavy clothing.  But, unless things change, women might have a hard time handling the 10mm.  Off the front lines they can use the 9mm as is.     

[Dee]

Ok, if you say so. Not to argue, but have you seen actual shootins, autopsys, and performance analysts in actual street shootings concerning these bullets you've named, or are you going by as advertised?. There's a huge difference between manufacturers testing and actual street application.

Going by independent testing, and evaluations which do include data from actual shootings. I'm not sure how results from feral hogs thick hide & hair play into effectiveness in SD situations with two-legged predators so I can't really comment on that but it is an interesting data point nonetheless.

The fact is, a hollow point is a hollow point, and they all work, or don't work, on the same principles. If the new hollow points were different from the older ones, they likely wouldn't even be hollow points, but would be sumthin else entirely. The newer designs are no doubt better quality, but they are what they are.

There is a bullet I've read about, and seen pictures of, that looks similar to a Phillips head screwdriver. Advertising says it's a good penetrator, and immediately starts tumbling on impact. I can see where that could be better in some situations.