Author Topic: Controlled Round Feed B/S  (Read 1631 times)

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Offline razmuz

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« on: March 21, 2004, 04:22:16 AM »
Years ago, as a poor boy, I started out with the Savage, Remington and other cheap rifles.  Since I won the lottery I've bought three C/R feed high dollar rifles.  Let me tell you folks, a C/R feed is a  pain in the but, especially at the range when trying out new loads.  I don't think there is any realistic logic for owning a C/R feed in these United States. I mean none.  Additionally their not as safe.  In your responses I don't want to hear that it"s better in combat or when facing dangerous critters.  America you have been brain washed by gun magazines

Offline Dave in WV

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2004, 05:17:16 AM »
I like them. I don't feel the CRF is needed or better. The only push feed extractor design I don't care for is Remington's. It a cheap piece of junk to me. Remington quit riveting the extractor in because they broke easier with it. When my son shot his first deer he double fed his rifle and of course it jammed. I saw him do it so I knew what to do immediately. No big deal, just what the CRF is designed to not allow to happen. It's not better, just a little more foolproof. The push feed design is proving far better with short fat cartridges. I do believe I would like Winchester's CRF/push feed set up. The best of both worlds.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2004, 06:48:31 AM »
razmuz -

I have both push-feed and controlled-round feed (CRF), and prefer the CRF -- especially at the range.

One of CRF's big advantages, IMHO, is during ejection - I don't ding up the points on unfired rounds and the cases can be extracted as gently as you desire or thrown many feet if that is your wish.  At the bench I tend to extract them slowly until the case mouths point away from the gun, then grab the case mouth with my fingers -- the cases never hit the dirt and it doesn't take two hands to control them as it does with with push-feed mechanisms.

As to being brainwashed, no, I can and have made up my own mind, thank you very much.
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Offline Lawdog

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2004, 11:52:37 AM »
razmuz,

Quote
Let me tell you folks, a C/R feed is a pain in the but, especially at the range when trying out new loads.


I don't see your problem.  What you don't like inserting the cartridge in the magazine?  Takes up to much time or what?  I own both and I have never found any problems with a CRF at the range.  In fact like 'Coyote Hunter' said,

Quote
One of CRF's big advantages, IMHO, is during ejection - I don't ding up the points on unfired rounds and the cases can be extracted as gently as you desire or thrown many feet if that is your wish. At the bench I tend to extrcact them slowly until the case mouths point away from the gun, then grab the case mouth with my fingers -- the cases never hit the dirt and it doesn't take two hands to control them as it does with with push-feed mechanisms.


we agree completly here.  I to prefer to keep my bench emptys off the ground.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline razmuz

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Yes Lawdog
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2004, 04:52:45 PM »
I hate pushing rounds into the magazine while working up loads.  Last week I went to the range twice and each time fired about 60 rounds.  I treat my Remingtons like a single shot and holding my left hand over the port is no is no problem when ejecting.  After one of you said that the Remington dinged brass I had to run to my gun room and check.  My brass is so off color, scracthed and funky looking I couldn't tell.  I've yet to meet anyone that's had the ejector on a Remington break.  Keep in mind that Remington is not my favorite rifle, it's just the easiest to work with.  Just because you like CRF doesn't make it logical.  I wont hunt with a rifle that will not touch bullet holes on the first three rounds and my Remington will.  A couple of my CEF's get close.

Offline Fla Brian

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2004, 06:45:35 PM »
Razmuz,

Let me see if I've got this straight, CRF is "not as safe", because you don't like to feed rounds through the magazine when working up loads?

First, a gunsmith can do a bevel job on the claw to allow it to ride over the cartridge head when it's fed directly into the chamber. My custom 8mm-06 Imp Mauser works this way as do others that I own.

Second, unless you feed through the magazine when working up loads you might create a cartridge with a bullet seating depth that gives fine accuracy only to find out later that it's too long to work through the magazine. That happened to me with another custom Mauser in .30-06 with 180 grain bullet loads seated well out.  

I've used both push feed and CRF, and I like the latter better, even though I wouldn't dream of parting with my 700 in .30-06. It was my first centerfire and is very accurate.

I hardly think I've been brainwashed. I didn't come to prefer Mauser actions because some gun writer told me to. I really enjoyed the first one I got, and I've had the feeling reinforced with each succeeding one.
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Offline leverfan

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2004, 09:07:48 PM »
Quote from: Fla Brian
Razmuz,

Let me see if I've got this straight, CRF is "not as safe", because you don't like to feed rounds through the magazine when working up loads?

Brian-  Maybe Razmuz has been "brainwashed" by clever advertising and gunwriters, and now he believes everything he hears about the "three rings of steel" hype.  I think that's what he means when he says other designs are "safer" than CRF types.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2004, 04:03:40 AM »
Quote from: razmuz
Years ago, as a poor boy, I started out with the Savage, Remington and other cheap rifles.  Since I won the lottery I've bought three C/R feed high dollar rifles.  Let me tell you folks, a C/R feed is a  pain in the but, especially at the range when trying out new loads.  I don't think there is any realistic logic for owning a C/R feed in these United States. I mean none.  Additionally their not as safe.  In your responses I don't want to hear that it"s better in combat or when facing dangerous critters.  America you have been brain washed by gun magazines


razmuz -

Your post sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me -- you didn't know what you were getting into when you bought those three CRF rifles (serial bad decisions on your part?)

My Ruger M77 MKII has CRF and at the range I just load the chamber and close the bolt - no different than what I do with my older push-feed Rugers.  But as mentioned in a previous post, extraction is more controlled.

You say you don't think there is any reason for owning a CFR rifle in the US, but I see from the time zone in your profile that if you live in the US you don't live in an area where big bears are present.  Nor moose, unless you live up in the northern tier of states.  You must not hung hogs, either?  

In justifying your position, you try to exclude the two best reasons for having CRF -- combat and dangerous game.  Granted, general combat may not be likely, but what about civil unrest where the cops cordon off an area and essentially create areas of anarchy (see Rodney King riots and others).  Or what about situations where the rifle in question may be used in self defense -- I know I would prefer a CRF rifle in such a situation.

Many US citizens are active in big bear territory, whether hunting or not, and quite a few have had unpleasant experiences as a result of bear encounters.  Ditto with moose, black bears, hogs, elk and deer.  And wolves and dogs.  

Your argument appears to be that being prepared is not a logical reason to own a CRF.  Your "logic" would also argue against buying life insurance until you are an old man on your death bed.

Even barring civil unrest, self-defense and dangerous game, there are logical reasons for owning a CRF rifle -- your mind is just closed to accepting them because you personally don't care for the CRF actions.  I shoot both push-feed and CRF rifles at benches and in the field.  Although I mastered the two-handed-don't-let-the-brass-fly extraction technique for my push-feed rifles many years ago, I much prefer the CRF's one-handed extraction.  If there was no other reason, this would be enough for me.

You also claim CRF rifles are "not as safe".  In the civil unrest/self-defense/dangerous game scenarios, I would contend they contribute significantly to the user's safety margin, but you conveniently refuse to accept such contentions.  (Where is the logic in that?)  At the same time you claim but provide no supporting evidence that they are less safe mechanically -- good job!

May I suggest you destroy your CRF rifles (wouldn't want to pass them on to someone else as they aren't safe enough) and buy a bunch of push-feed rifles to replace them?
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Fla Brian

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2004, 05:59:20 AM »
Leverfan,

I believe your "three rings of steel" comment was directed at Remington actions. I really don't consider it to be altogether hype either. A lot of custom gun makers prefer Remingtons because of their strength, as well as their accuracy.

Of course, the idea that CRF is "not as safe" is a lot of malarkey. If that were the case, in our litigious society, gun makers would be afraid to build such actions, and dealers wouldn't stock them, for fear of being sued. The fact is, that there are several manufacturers who build CRF rifles (Winchester had to return to building them.), and I haven't heard of any instances where they have failed.

The vast majority of my centerfire battery are Mausers, both sporting and mil-surp, and I've run some pretty stout handloads through some of them.* When last I checked, I still had all my digits still attached in the usual places and I've no shrapnel wound scars that I can see. I guess they hold together pretty well after all.

In Coyotes "civil unrest" scenario, I think he forgot one other interesting aspect of the Mauser action in particular. Unless it has been radiused, the follower will not let the bolt close when the magazine is empty unless you depress it with your thumb first. That's what that round cutout on the off side is for. One need not worry about closing the bolt on an empty chamber and hearing only a click when popping up to let off a round. Which can be "not as safe." The Mausers though of the last shot bolt hold open concept before semi-autos came into vogue. Clever of them and shows how well thought out the design really is.

The fact that the design is still going strong after over a century of use is testimony to its excellence. And that's not hype.

* I do not recommend the following load to anyone, although it has been proven safe in my particular rifle, especially since there has been a run of British Enfield rifle conversions to the .45-70 chambering. As always work up loads from starting charges and be alert for signs of excessive pressure.

With 400-405 grain bullets in my .45-70 Mauser, I charge the cases with 58 grains of IMR 3031. It has proven to be a very accurate load.
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Offline razmuz

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MY RESPONSE
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2004, 04:12:51 PM »
Just because I don't want a gas blowback from the claw space on the bolt you don't have to get mad at me.  If your really honest the most appealing thing about the CRF is the macho war thing, kinda like high rise pickups and wearing camouflage to the 7-11.  By the way, when things go bump in the night I think shotgun and so should you.  Hey fellows, now days dangerous game is being hunted with pistols, bows & arrows.  See, just like I said, it's ain't logical.

Offline wpayne

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2004, 04:47:23 PM »
So you made an uninformed decision and bought not one, not two, but three CRF rifles and now you complain that you don't like them?  Who's illogical here?  
 :roll:
If CRF is not your preference then sell them, I am sure there are many more informed buyers that would take them off your hands despite them being "less safe" and "unnecessary".  

You aren't going to get any help from me in rationalizing your next buying spree.  It has nothing to do with macho, it has everything to do with informed decision making, try it next time, you might like it.
 :wink:

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: MY RESPONSE
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2004, 05:31:05 PM »
Quote from: razmuz
Just because I don't want a gas blowback from the claw space on the bolt you don't have to get mad at me.  If your really honest the most appealing thing about the CRF is the macho war thing, kinda like high rise pickups and wearing camouflage to the 7-11.  By the way, when things go bump in the night I think shotgun and so should you.  Hey fellows, now days dangerous game is being hunted with pistols, bows & arrows.  See, just like I said, it's ain't logical.


What's illogical here is your arguments.  I've been to war, and although I pray I never see more, being prepared for various contingencies is far from the most stupid thing a person could do.  (You buy insurance and hope you don't need it, do you not?)  I don't care for high-rise pick-ups but that doesn't mean there is no reason for them.  And l'll admit I wear camo to the 7-11 on occasion-- but only when I'm going or coming from a hunting trip and need fuel.  When things go bump in the night I think Kimber .45 first, but things that go bump in the night have nothing to do with why I like CRF rifles.

And the fact that people hunt dangerous game with handguns or bows or spears or knives is totally irrelevant to your original position and in no way supports your argument.

By the way, the Mausers were well designed to vent gases away form the shooter.  My Ruger's are similarly vented.  Not sure what kind of rifles you own, but I would bet that they are also well vented and that gas blowback along the claw space is no more likey than it is with a non-claw rifle.  Of course if you can point to a documented example of a rifle of the type you own own blowing gases back into the face of the shooter I will concede this point to you.  In the meantime, I won't be holding my breath.


Thank you -- if there was any doubt before (and there wasn't), you have just shown you cannot support your position with a cohesive, logical or persuasive argument.  As I suggested earlier, you made serial bad decisions in your mind, and now you're just upset at the results.  When you say "America you have been brain washed by gun magazines", what you really mean is "I, Razmuz, was brain washed by gun magazines -- and now I'm having buyer's remorse."
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Yes Lawdog
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2004, 06:02:41 PM »
Quote from: razmuz
...I don't think there is any realistic logic for owning a C/R feed in these United States. I mean none.  ...


Quote from: razmuz
... Just because you like CRF doesn't make it logical.  ...


So you are saying that even though I prefer CRF it would be more logical for me to buy a push-feed rifle?  

Hoo-boy, THERE's some logic for ya!
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Offline leverfan

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2004, 06:19:45 PM »
Quote from: Fla Brian
Leverfan,

I believe your "three rings of steel" comment was directed at Remington actions. I really don't consider it to be altogether hype either. A lot of custom gun makers prefer Remingtons because of their strength, as well as their accuracy.


Actually, I was just trying to be funny, but I may have missed the mark. :-)

Anyway, razmuz, you might want to just switch to sling shots, since you're into chunking rocks so much.  If you're going to throw rocks at the hounds just to hear them yip back at you, you shouldn't get so worked up about the yipping, you asked for it.  :D
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Offline Dave in WV

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2004, 02:55:49 AM »
I don't see what all the fuss is about. If Razmuz likes push feed rifles so be it. I have a M-14 for social events at longer ranges than my 870 is good for. I'll admit I'm biased against Remington bolt rifles. I just don't care for them. I'd buy a Savage before a Remington in almost any case.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2004, 03:32:33 AM »
Quote from: Dave in WV
...I have a M-14 for social events at longer ranges than my 870 is good for. ...


Dave -

You have exhibited uncommon good sense in my opinion!  I have long thought an M-14 or AR-10 to be superior to an AR-15-type for "social work".

Since I have none of the above, however, I am very keenly interested in the new 6.8mm Remington round.  It would seem to me that this cartrige has a big advantage over the .223 and a recoil (manageability) advantage over the .308.
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Offline razmuz

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Gun Nuts Have Strong Opinions
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2004, 06:47:35 AM »
Go ahead kick me while I'm down, gang up on me, but that doesn't change the fact that their are more Remingtons out there than any other kind.  Why, because they work.  You say it's because their cheap; no way, more custom gun makers use Remington than any other action. Why, because they work.  The CRF action has it's place just like standard transmissions.  Many get four in the floor for macho reasons when in their hearts they know the automatic is better.  Now that I've proven you folks wrong and shown my logic I've got to go to other matters.  You guys aren't the only ones that need my logic.  I think I'll get a gun magazine an read about Elmer Keith killing things with a pistol at 600 yards.  He liked CRF also. :grin:

Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2004, 07:07:14 AM »
Quote from: leverfan
Quote from: Fla Brian
Leverfan,

I believe your "three rings of steel" comment was directed at Remington actions. I really don't consider it to be altogether hype either. A lot of custom gun makers prefer Remingtons because of their strength, as well as their accuracy.


Actually, I was just trying to be funny, but I may have missed the mark. :-)


Hey, nobudddy's parfekt.  :-D  :-D

Quote from: leverfan
Anyway, razmuz, you might want to just switch to sling shots, since you're into chunking rocks so much.  If you're going to throw rocks at the hounds just to hear them yip back at you, you shouldn't get so worked up about the yipping, you asked for it.  :D


Now, that's kinda funny.  :D
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Offline Mauser

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2004, 07:39:43 AM »
Razmuz:  I'm glad you like push feed rifles.  I like them too and believe they have a place.  I own one now (a Weatherby) and have owned a few others, including a M700, over the years.  As my handle suggests, I am a much bigger fan of actions based on the Mauser system.  As I have taken formal logic in the past, I can tell you that you haven't exactly proven your case, but I admire your passion.  Many in the firearms industry owe much to folks like you.

Your statement about the Remington 700 and its numerical superiority over "any other kind" is simply not true if you are speaking of action type.  There are not more M700s out there than Mausers or actions based on them.  This includes M70s, M77s, and Springfields just to name a few.  The M700 really only came to prominence because Winchester massacred its M70 (and a lot else) in 1964.  Winchester could not build the more complicated and thus more capital intensive action for the average guy and make any money-a trend that began not long after WWII.  Investment casting and CNC machines made the controlled feed action economically viable again.

The M700 owes most of its popularity to being in the right place at the right time at the right cost.  That said, it is a very good and accurate action.  Its just not, on balance, what I want when faced with dangerous game.  There is a reason the controlled feed action began as a military arm.  There is no more dangerous game animal than an enemy soldier in the heat of battle where positive feeding and extraction are absolutely crucial.  This has been proven over and over again.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Gun Nuts Have Strong Opinions
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2004, 08:06:36 AM »
Quote from: razmuz
Years ago, as a poor boy, I started out with the Savage, Remington and other cheap rifles.  ...

Quote from: razmuz
...  You say it's because their cheap; no way, more custom gun makers use Remington than any other action. ...


razmuz -

It would seem that YOU were the first to call the Remingtons cheap.  Dave in WY agreed, but no one else made that argument.  And I don't recall anyone saying Remingtons don't work.  

Quote from: razmuz
...  I don't think there is any realistic logic for owning a C/R feed in these United States. I mean none.  ...

Quote from: razmuz
The CRF action has it's place just like standard transmissions.  ...


So now you are saying there IS a logical reason for having one?  


Quote from: razmuz
... Now that I've proven you folks wrong...


I think you proved yourself wrong...

Quote from: razmuz
... and shown my logic ...


Where?
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Offline Fla Brian

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Re: Gun Nuts Have Strong Opinions
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2004, 08:09:16 AM »
Quote from: razmuz
Go ahead kick me while I'm down, gang up on me, but that doesn't change the fact that their are more Remingtons out there than any other kind.  Why, because they work.  You say it's because their cheap; no way, more custom gun makers use Remington than any other action. Why, because they work.  The CRF action has it's place just like standard transmissions.  Many get four in the floor for macho reasons when in their hearts they know the automatic is better.  Now that I've proven you folks wrong and shown my logic I've got to go to other matters.  You guys aren't the only ones that need my logic.  I think I'll get a gun magazine an read about Elmer Keith killing things with a pistol at 600 yards.  He liked CRF also. :grin:


So, what you're saying is that, after over a hundred years of production in a host of countries for just Mausers alone, not to mention CZs, Winchesters and Ruger Mark IIs, among others, Remington has out produced them all? This is an example of your "logic?"

Custom gun makers do like Remington 700s, but the all time favorites are Mausers and pre-'64 Winchesters - with controlled round feed, and folks regularly plunk down more far more than the cost of most complete rifles for just a Fred Wells Mauser type action to have a custom big game rifle built on it. "Macho?" You will also note that, among the high dollar semi-custom companies, their dangerous game rifles are almost invariably equipped with CRF. But, I guess they're also just into "macho" - unlike you.

As for Elmer Keith's 600 yard shot, if you had bothered to research before you spouted off, you'd have realized that the late Mr. Keith had engaged in considerable practice at very long range with his revolvers, and, whatever faults he might have had, lying was not one of them. (I put this feat in the same category as Billy Dixon's famous long range buffalo gun shot at a mounted Indian. He might not have been able to repeat that shot, but, on that particular occasion, he scored.) If Keith favored CRF, well, that's a fine testimonial as to its worth.

You'll forgive me, of course, if I take counsel from a man who did more with firearms in his one life, hunting game everywhere it was to be found, than most. What experience have you to stack up against that?

Although rather off topic, your assertion that automatic transmissions are "better" than standard shifts is like all the rest of your commentary - your personal opinion stated as fact. If you were correct, why is it that automatic transmissions are not standard equipment on all semi trucks. You think the manufacturers of those vehicles know something that you don't? My personal vehicle is a 1989 Toyota MR2 - with a 5-speed gearbox. I don't contend that, because I love to drive it, it is better than anyone else's auto. I don't drive it because it is a "macho" thing but because it is fun and I like it.

Just as some people like slide action rifles - I don't tell them that they're being "illogical" or "macho" because they could be using semi-automatics which are "better." Come to think of it, if we were to follow your "logic," we'd all reject "manual" actions in favor of semi-automatics.

I agree that you ought to turn to other matters. The only thing you've "proven" in this case is that you don't have the faintest idea of what you're talking about.
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Offline Dave in WV

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2004, 10:00:01 AM »
Uh, I didn't say Remingtons are cheap, just their extractors IMO. My bias against the Remington 700? The less expensive manufacturing design was used to kill the M70. The reason today the M700 is so popular for custom rifles, target rifles, and sniper rifles is the design is easier and less expensive to work with. Man this thread went south faster than a Leupold vs brand X thread.

Thanks Coyote Hunter. In my limited exposure I didn't care for the M16 design much. Then again, I don't care for the Beretta either. I thought the S&W .38s were a better choice for air crew members. (they fit more users's hands) As a coworker related to me the .308/7.62 x 51 put them down and kept them there for him in Nam.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Lawdog

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Controlled Round Feed B/S
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2004, 12:51:20 PM »
razmuz,


Quote
Go ahead kick me while I'm down, gang up on me, but that doesn't change the fact that their are more Remingtons out there than any other kind. Why, because they work. You say it's because their cheap; no way, more custom gun makers use Remington than any other action. Why, because they work.


Actually NO they DO NOT work.  The reason there is so many after market parts for Remingtons is they are needed.  You don't see expensive custom Remington rifles with standard triggers, safeties and ejectors.  Why if the original factory parts are so great?  I own a few Remington's(a couple of M721's, M722's and two M700 BDL's) that shoot and work great BUT all were made before 1980.  The Remington product(S) I have bought since were JUNK, pure, plain and simple junk.  It has nothing to do with push feed as I am a collector and shooter of Weatherby Mark V's(guess what, push feeds) but I also prefer CRF actions for all my other rifles.  Outside of lousy quality control lately the real problem with Remington is their Customer Service Department.  If you have the bad luck to have a problem with a Remington product, GOOD LUCK, as their customer service department really does not exist.  I know of many other hunters/shooters that can and will tell you about the nightmares they have had with Remington's Customer Service Department.  What good is a product when the company won't back their product and that is why, UNTIL things change at Remington, I can't and won't recommend them to anyone.

I can give you five reasons why NOT to buy Remington products,

1.] hideous safety

2.] brazed on bolt handle

3.] declining quality control

4.] non existent customer service

5.] a trigger group made from stamped metal

No thank you as far as Remington goes, I will keep my Winchesters, Ruger, and every other mauser spin off which are much safer and you can keep your low dollar Remingtons.  Now since you won the lottery why not get you the best push feed on the market, Weatherby.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2004, 02:07:15 PM »
Lawdog,

Maybe that's why I like the couple of Remingtons I have; they're old ones. I bought my first, a sweet shootin' .30-06, new, in 1971 and the second, a 7mm maggie, used, around 1989 or 90. Never have had a problem with either of them.

My main love is for Mausers though - all kinds.
Brian
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Nil sine magno labore.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2004, 02:48:53 PM »
Lawdog -

So I take it you DON'T like new Remingtons?  ;)

As I went through your list, I couldn't help but compare it to how I feel about RUGER rifles:

1.] 3-position safety, which I prefer.

2.] One-piece bolt, which I MUCH prefer.

3.] Excellent quality - but that's just my opinion.

4.] Excellent customer service.

5.] Excellent trigger on my MKII VT.  Cannot attest to standard MKII's as I don't have one.

6.] Best scope mounting system available and by a wide margin - in my opinion.

7.] CRF :grin:

Not knocking Remingtons, as I do have a total of two -- one a shotgun and one a muzzleloader, both of which I am very pleased with.  (The muzzleloader is very similar to the M700 and uses the same trigger group.)  But when its time to lay money on the counter for a centerfire, somehow I keep getting Rugers -- and I have yet to be disappointed.


[/list]
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Offline Omaha-BeenGlockin

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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2004, 06:31:06 PM »
Hhhmmm----last time I said Remingtons were junk---I caught heck from everyone---Winchesters are maybe a notch above Rems---but still junk.

As I've said before----I'll take a Ruger or Savage before any junk Rem/Win. And I really don't have all that high opinion of Ruger/Savage either.

The Weatherby's I've had were hit and miss----one was an absolute tack driver-----the other 2 were so so.

Had a Kimber 84M---nice rifle---but had doubts to its long term durability---so got rid of it.

Had a Cooper in .220 Swift---one hole shooter there---but was too heavy for caliber for my liking----and a single shot---so got rid of it.

Did some trading lately---so now own 2 Sako 75's .375 H&H and .338 Win plus a Browning straight pull Acera .30-06(bought it for a steal---the trigger isn't that great and not adjustable)----but a very nice rifle overall---esp considering what I paid for it---got it for about $200 less than the dealer paid for it------it had been sitting there for 2 to 3 years--so they were just looking to get rid of it. Even my Tikka's are gone in favor of the Sako's.

Sako/Tikka are the only production guns that don't need "fixin"----to get any better---you would have to go custom----and even then might not wind up with a better shooter.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it----been through all those rifles and then some.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2004, 10:42:56 AM »
Coyote Hunter,

On Rugers, you and I agree completely.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline HogFan

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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2004, 02:58:51 PM »
I also have to agree with Coyote Hunter and Lawdog, when it comes to Rugers. I think for the money, they are the best deal going!

HogFan

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Yes Lawdog
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2004, 04:03:58 AM »
razmuz --
As I re-read this thread, I decided I couldn't pass up commenting on your comments one more time.

Quote from: razmuz
I hate pushing rounds into the magazine while working up loads.  Last week I went to the range twice and each time fired about 60 rounds.  I treat my Remingtons like a single shot and holding my left hand over the port is no is no problem when ejecting.  


Many CRF rifles have the extractor claw beveled so they snap over a round singly loaded in the chamber.  For those that don't, you can use your off-hand to squeeze the extractor closer toward the bolt body, causing the claw to go over the case rim.  (Mauser designed it this way on purpose.)  This two-handed technique is no more difficult than that required when controlling cases or live rounds being extracted from a push-feed rifle.

Quote from: razmuz
After one of you said that the Remington dinged brass I had to run to my gun room and check.  My brass is so off color, scracthed and funky looking I couldn't tell.    


No one said the Remingtons dinged brass.  What was said (by me) was that "One of CRF's big advantages, IMHO, is during ejection - I don't ding up the points on unfired rounds".  This was primarily in reference to lead-nosed spitzers, whose noses are particularly susceptible to damage.  

Quote from: razmuz
I've yet to meet anyone that's had the ejector on a Remington break.  


So of course it never happens, stories to the contrary being nothing more than rumors started by Remington's competitors?  Your experience as one individual accurately reflects the experience of millions of Remington users?

Quote from: razmuz
Keep in mind that Remington is not my favorite rifle, it's just the easiest to work with.    


Just what kind of work has your Remington needed?  And why was that work easier than on a Ruger, Savage, Winchester or other brand of your choice?

Quote from: razmuz
Just because you like CRF doesn't make it logical.    


Just because you DON'T like CRF doesn't make it illogical.


Quote from: razmuz

I wont hunt with a rifle that will not touch bullet holes on the first three rounds and my Remington will.  A couple of my CEF's get close.  


And of course, everyone knows that push-feed rifles can shoot this way while CRF rifles cannot?  [:Peals of laughter:]

Frankly, while one-ragged-hole accuracy doesn't hurt anything, such accuracy is far more useful in competition than while hunting.   IMHO, to refuse to hunt with a rifle that shoots "close" to one-ragged-hole groups because it isn't accurate enough is just silly.

There are many factors that affect accuracy, and many of them have a far greater effect than whether a rifle is push-feed or CRF.  While your push-feed rifles may be more accurate than your CRF rifles, there are a zillion possible reasons that have nothing to do with push-feed versus CRF.  FWIW,  my most accurate rifle is CRF.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2004, 05:40:24 AM »
Coyote Hunter,

I don't think razmuz is listening any more. I believe he's engaged in the time-honored practice of quitting while he was behind.

He reminds me of Saddam Hussein after the Gulf War. He got whupped, but that didn't stop him from declaring victory and thumbing his nose at the real winners.
Brian
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