Author Topic: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!  (Read 2625 times)

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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2021, 12:37:20 PM »
 We normally just give to St. Jude or something like that but we did send the Colonel 10 bucks.
He's being screwed.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2021, 10:11:41 AM »
He's been released, has turned down a plea offer ... which is always offered by Marine prosecution. Hard to piece together what the offer was based on the news interpretation of what his father said, but it probably was something like accept NJP to lesser charges, take a general under honorable and go away. Instead he has chosen to face 6 counts in a Courts Martial, but he is home. Prosecution is dog piling charges knowing full well they won't get them all to stick. I think he was wise to get civilian counsel for this. The stakes are higher in a Courts Martial, but all the rules of evidence and a jury trial come into play which I can only think would work well for him. Had he faced NJP, there are no rights, no evidence, its entirely up to the judgment of the CO. With a Courts Martial, he'll have a judge, and presumption of innocence is no kidding still operating in Marine Corps justice. Sounds like there's Congressional interest now, so the Marine Corps is going to play a very clean game, every aspect will be scrutinized and questioned, and reviewed. I think all of that protects LtCol Scheller from not receiving a fair trial, but I don't think he helped himself when he disobeyed a direct order AFTER his first video, and kept up the social media chatter. I do not see how he gets out of article 92 and 133 right now, neither of which have anything to do with WHAT he said, and everything to do with HOW he said it. I can agree with WHAT he said in his first video, and respect him for tendering his resignation in the wake of it ... he had a lot of fans at that point, myself included.

FWIW, the news keeps stating he's been cut short of veteran's benefits, which is false. He is 3 years short of a 20 year full retirement, but he is also eligible for the new BRS retirement, which means he'll get 34% retirement (2x17), plus the TSP ... which many veterans were never allowed to participate in. He will also still be eligible for full VA benefits, to include HC, education, disability, etc. If he's found guilty at Court Martial, all of that is in jeopardy, sure. But nothing has been done yet to any of the benefits for which he was eligible when he voluntarily submitted his resignation.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/oct/6/breaking-lt-col-scheller-face-marine-court-martial/
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2021, 01:53:41 PM »
Hes got a lot of the country behind him.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2021, 10:54:10 PM »
He's facing a Special Court Martial, which is a Misdemeanor trial by Judge and 3 Officer jury. Because he's an officer, the maximum punishment he can receive is forfeiture of up to 2/3rds base pay per month for up to a year, which for him is $73,600 at most. He cannot be dismissed, confined, or receive a punitive discharge. He'll keep his VA benefits, his BRS retirement, his TSP, and his resignation will most likely be accepted once the trial is over and he's paid his punishment ... which he can offset with the $2.5 million Eddie raised for him. The fact that this is going to Special and not General means its not a witch hunt, and he probably would not have even gone to Special if he hadn't have made the 2nd video in violation of a direct order. All in all, he'll get his wish to resign, and come out financially secure, most likely already has some opportunities on the table for once he's out.

But will there be accountability for Afghanistan? Nope.
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2021, 02:43:51 AM »
No, but I suspect there will be a very loud voice for a very long time..
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2021, 11:28:59 AM »
  .
    Unless things have changed, the one thing many civilians don't quite get, is that civil law is not directly transferrable to the UCMJ.
  Double jeopardy plays an important part in civil law, but seemingly has no great bearing with the UCMJ.

    Some things which seem logical in civil law, doesn't necessarily apply with the  military justice system, which can sound to the average civilian, like some foreign body of law.  As I see it, there are numerous "catch 22" options, within the system.

  I am of course going on decades old information, perhaps TN can correct if needed.
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2021, 12:20:59 PM »
The Bill of Rights, and the Constitution are for everyone. Civil law, and Criminal law are not the same, as far as Civilian Criminal, verses Military Criminal law I'm sure there are some procedural differences, but Constitutional Rights, are not superceded by either.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2021, 01:27:16 AM »
The biggest difference is Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) which does not include right to legal counsel, trial by peers, or review of evidence. This is a distinct Professional Code, and is presided over entirely by the Chain of Command. Depending on your branch, this would be called NJP, Article 15 or Mast. The penalties possible under UCMJ are not considered to meet the level of penalties awarded in a Criminal trial like civilians would be aware of. It is entirely at the discretion of the CO to find you guilty under UCMJ, and determine punishments. There is an automatic review process, and military lawyers are involved but its all inside the special UCMJ system.

Court Martial is a criminal trial, and includes the same rights as a civilian criminal trial. It also means the punishments can be more severe. But in this case, since he is receiving a Special CM which is a misdemeanor trial, the only punishment he can receive is a fine. This not a "military tribunal" ... he will get as fair a criminal trial as anyone else gets these days. It just occurred to me though, that if he's found guilty, even of a misdemeanor criminal charge, it may effect his ability to keep firearms under the current red flag system America has voted for.

As for Constitutional Rights applying to everyone, America gave that away for our military when it made it a crime to say fire in a theater, when it made speech a hate crime, when it voted for folks like Dan Crenshaw who recently sided with Democrats to take away the 2A rights of service members in the name of "safety." We don't have religious freedom in the Military - we have the right to wear a dogtag with whatever we want on it, but to practice our faith? No, not in public as most Americans do. Right to vote? They've lost my ballots so many times - folks may remember when crates of our votes coming back from OIF and OEF were inadvertently dumped in the ocean. Right to bear arms? Ha, what a joke. Freedom to assemble? They're investigating the Marine that saved a baby in Afghanistan because he attended a Trump rally in civilian clothes. No, in practice, our military doesn't enjoy the constitutional rights we swore to uphold and defend, and the reason for that falls right on the American Voter. Why serve? Well because our country matters, at least it did to me, and I always hoped that the American voter would make it right. I look at the current vax mandate ... we can't strike, we can't just not show up for work. We don't have a union to protect us, and congress sure isn't. The religious exemption requests are just an administrative exercise; no one is going to be granted an exemption, so in essence we have the right to practice our religion but only if we get out. We can't have scriptures on our desks, or stickers on our car. Our neighbor on base can fly the LGBTQ+ flag, but we can't fly a ProLife banner. The American Voter turned its back on the military a long time ago and alot has changed.

For example, LtCol Scheller is being charged with Article 88, which when established in the UCMJ, was to prevent the disruption of good order and discipline of the ranks if say a leader made personal and direct disparaging comments about the character of the Commander and Chief. You can disagree with their policy, with their decision, you can question their decision, but you cannot disparage the person and character. However, because the American voters in the name of keeping feelings safe voted in the congress we have now, its quite possible that LtCol Scheller's questioning of authority may be found to meet the level of Article 88 ... this will be a test case, and will be interesting to see what the 3 members of the jury determine. If they reinterpret Article 88 in a more progressive manner, then as irrational as it sounds, they may establish precedent that to have a healthy questioning attitude is a crime. used to be a sign of good leadership.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2021, 02:05:26 AM »
  From Dee;

     
The Bill of Rights, and the Constitution are for everyone. Civil law, and Criminal law are not the same, as far as Civilian Criminal, verses Military Criminal law I'm sure there are some procedural differences, but Constitutional Rights, are not superceded by either.

  From TN;

      " As for Constitutional Rights applying to everyone, America gave that away for our military when it made it a crime to say fire in a theater, when it made speech a hate crime, when it voted for folks like Dan Crenshaw who recently sided with Democrats to take away the 2A rights of service members in the name of "safety." We don't have religious freedom in the Military - we have the right to wear a dogtag with whatever we want on it, but to practice our faith? No, not in public as most Americans do."

        In all due respect..I guess a man has to have been in the military to understand how the Constitution is essentially suspended, for the military.

  Perhaps some other vets can help explain from experience..  Total constitutional rights in the military is only an EM dream. In fact, the military would not be near as effective as they are, had they full constitutional rights.
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2021, 03:49:02 AM »
The biggest difference is Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) which does not include right to legal counsel, trial by peers, or review of evidence. This is a distinct Professional Code, and is presided over entirely by the Chain of Command. Depending on your branch, this would be called NJP, Article 15 or Mast. The penalties possible under UCMJ are not considered to meet the level of penalties awarded in a Criminal trial like civilians would be aware of. It is entirely at the discretion of the CO to find you guilty under UCMJ, and determine punishments. There is an automatic review process, and military lawyers are involved but its all inside the special UCMJ system.

Court Martial is a criminal trial, and includes the same rights as a civilian criminal trial. It also means the punishments can be more severe. But in this case, since he is receiving a Special CM which is a misdemeanor trial, the only punishment he can receive is a fine. This not a "military tribunal" ... he will get as fair a criminal trial as anyone else gets these days. It just occurred to me though, that if he's found guilty, even of a misdemeanor criminal charge, it may effect his ability to keep firearms under the current red flag system America has voted for.

As for Constitutional Rights applying to everyone, America gave that away for our military when it made it a crime to say fire in a theater, when it made speech a hate crime, when it voted for folks like Dan Crenshaw who recently sided with Democrats to take away the 2A rights of service members in the name of "safety." We don't have religious freedom in the Military - we have the right to wear a dogtag with whatever we want on it, but to practice our faith? No, not in public as most Americans do. Right to vote? They've lost my ballots so many times - folks may remember when crates of our votes coming back from OIF and OEF were inadvertently dumped in the ocean. Right to bear arms? Ha, what a joke. Freedom to assemble? They're investigating the Marine that saved a baby in Afghanistan because he attended a Trump rally in civilian clothes. No, in practice, our military doesn't enjoy the constitutional rights we swore to uphold and defend, and the reason for that falls right on the American Voter. Why serve? Well because our country matters, at least it did to me, and I always hoped that the American voter would make it right. I look at the current vax mandate ... we can't strike, we can't just not show up for work. We don't have a union to protect us, and congress sure isn't. The religious exemption requests are just an administrative exercise; no one is going to be granted an exemption, so in essence we have the right to practice our religion but only if we get out. We can't have scriptures on our desks, or stickers on our car. Our neighbor on base can fly the LGBTQ+ flag, but we can't fly a ProLife banner. The American Voter turned its back on the military a long time ago and alot has changed.

For example, LtCol Scheller is being charged with Article 88, which when established in the UCMJ, was to prevent the disruption of good order and discipline of the ranks if say a leader made personal and direct disparaging comments about the character of the Commander and Chief. You can disagree with their policy, with their decision, you can question their decision, but you cannot disparage the person and character. However, because the American voters in the name of keeping feelings safe voted in the congress we have now, its quite possible that LtCol Scheller's questioning of authority may be found to meet the level of Article 88 ... this will be a test case, and will be interesting to see what the 3 members of the jury determine. If they reinterpret Article 88 in a more progressive manner, then as irrational as it sounds, they may establish precedent that to have a healthy questioning attitude is a crime. used to be a sign of good leadership.

So Civilian vs Military Criminal law and trials ARE basically the same is what I'm understanding you to say.

I agree as far as Dan Crenshaws' voting habits, but do you really believe voters saw that coming given his "extensive military background" and experience? You would have thought he would have been more sensitive to the Constitution, and Bill of Rights wouldn't you? Hind site is 2020?

When you say the voters have betrayed the military, I'm assuming you're talking about elected officials in Congress, but in a prior post you indicated the Lt Colonels' error was taking his complaining "outside the family". Those two remarks seem a contradiction of each other.

I would think your mention of Dan Crenshaw, would be a perfect example of both military, and civilian betrayal of both the soldier, and the civilian, to you as well as myself.

True, the American voters have over the last 70 years screwed themselves by not paying attention to their representatives voting habits, but the military hierarchy has been equally explicit in its deception of its participation in these nation building exploits, and we as voters ARE NOT responsible for promotions within the military ranks.
That corruption falls within the military ranks themselves, in all branches.

Those weren't civilians in the Pentagon undermining President Trump, leaking to the press, talking to liberal political book authors, warning Chinese enemy generals.
Those were "military generals" that worked their way through "the military family", and promoted within "the family", by "the family".

Right is right, and wrong is wrong, whether civilian, or military.

As to your remarks of the military not having "religious freedom". As  civilian I do have "religious freedom".
So I would say that "the family" has robbed the military service of its "religious freedom", and remind these repressed soldiers that military service is still on a voluntary basis.
No one that I know of is forced into military service since the Vietnam era.

If a soldier, whether private, or officer, feels religiously oppressed, the do not have to stay any longer than their last enlistment agreement.

There's plenty of guilt to go around, both civilian, and military, wouldn't you think?

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2021, 09:59:48 AM »
Our country is unique in that our military always operates under civil authority - elected and appointed civilians make policy for the military. The military does not make policy for itself, despite the common mischaracterization by the press. Those elected and appointed civilians have that authority because America votes for them to have it.

The debacle in Afghanistan is the responsibility of the civil authority as the military executed as the civilians ordered. If the military had done otherwise, then within the "family" of the military, there would be charges and trials. Its clear that very senior military leaders simply executed what civil authority wanted. They may have advised alternate plans, but in our country the military executes what the civil authority orders. LtCol Scheller wants accountability for Military authority not civil authority, at least that's what his first video claimed. As such, there is a path for that inside the "family" ... i.e. inside the military authority, inside which he is a sworn officer and participant. He is not an outsider. Had he wanted accountability for civil authority, i.e. elected officials and appointees, then going outside the military system was the right approach. FWIW, this issue of civil authority is well known and problematic in that there isn't really a law that requires it. Our military has just always consented to it philosophically, in recognition of our unique by the people, for the people approach to governance. But there's really no other reason for the military to obey civil authority, legally and technically.

Wisdom is pursuing the right ways and means for the right ends. LtCol Scheller had a right end in mind, but he used the wrong ways and means for the end he claimed to desire. His stated problem was with leadership within the Military domain, not the Civil Authority that is distinct from and over the Military. He used the wrong ways and means for his end.

As for who controls promotions, the voters most certainly do. Each of my promotions in the past 16 years has required Congressional approval, and Presidential signature. Were I not to retire, my next promotion would involve determining my suitability to operate within the politics of the Civil Authority, supervising, and being supervised by senior Civilian appointees within the DOD. America elects people, who appoint people, who hire people that share a like mindedness, and my ability to operate successfully (i.e. go along with) in that environment DIRECTLY affects my promotability.

I do hold the American voter solely responsible, which I am whenever my ballot does get counted (and typically outnumbered in my home county of El Paso). America has the Military leadership it has because it voted for the Civil Authority that runs the whole show. I sense that veterans like Dan Crenshaw got voted in out of respect for their service, which is certainly worthy of respect, and an assumption that they would protect the military. But there's a difference between protecting the "military" and the individual service members constitutional liberties. America has assumed that a pro-military civil authority included protecting individual liberties, but even under the most pro-military elected leadership, the liberties were eroded. And if you look at the timing, the military is usually the test bed - if it works with us, they try to make it apply to all Americans. Until we actual vote pro-liberty, we very well could have the world's largest most powerful military ran just like the old Soviet military, with politburo political officers in every command.
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2021, 11:19:30 AM »
I agree with much of what you're saying, but you haven't addressed the corruption within the ranks of military branches. General Milly for I instance.
He chose to leak to the press, and He chose undermine President Trump. Oliver North, General Milly the list is long, should know the difference between right and wrong, and are not held to the standards the military claims to have.

Like law enforcement personnel, there are criminals in the military, and former military veterans. I know I have locked up my share of every branch, and a few police officers, and firefighters.
Everything wrong in the military cannot be blamed on the voter. That would be a nonsensical claim.
As for military promotions, are you claiming that military superiors do not recommend these promotions, and have no part in them?
If so, I have serious doubts of civilian elected officials being responsible for such.

10 US Code Subsection 624, says that the president and Secretary of the military department concerned, selects off of a list of personnel approved for promotion formed by a military board.
There are also promotions given on merit.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2021, 12:44:53 AM »
  TN says;

   "Our country is unique, in that our military always operates under civilian authority."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
  I have to agree with that,  We can see that no matter how frivilous or inept a freshman congress person is, the most senior generals regularly defer to them (except for tactics and/or strategy).
 
  Then there is the now legendary confrontation between "General of the Army"*, Gen.Douglas MacArthur and Pres. Truman.  The civilian leader prevailed... the general was fired!

   * Gen MacArthur was one of only 5 officers to reach this highest of all military ranks.

  (I wonder if he had trouble, picking up a spare rank insignia at the PX ?)   LOL...



   
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2021, 11:00:47 AM »
LtCol Scheller plead guilty on all 6 charges. His lawyer stated that his client could not demand accountability of others and not accept it for himself. They are hopeful for an LOR and resignation accepted under honorable conditions.

As for accountability of senior officers … each one made it through the Senate Armed Services and President signed their promotion. That only happens if the senior civilians approve.

If you watched the vetting for the current secdef you would have heard the real issues, barefaced, plain as day. Military leadership must follow civilian leadership at all times. If you can’t do that, retire at O6 out in an operational unit somewhere and shout at the TV. Merit gets you to O5. To make O6 there has to be demonstrated skill it operating in a civilian ran organization, often done by observation as an O5 on a joint staff like at the pentagon where you will answer to senior civilians on a daily basis. If you fare well in that political environment, you may be recommended for promotion for O6. Past that is more politics than merit, and by politics I don't mean who you vote for, but how well you work with the civilians in DOD. I'm not talking the contracted yard workers, I mean the GS-15s and above. This is fact, this is reality, this is known. We have Milley as the CJCS because he has a long history of working well with the civilians who run the DOD. You didn't vote for the civilians, or Gen Miley, but you voted for the people who created the system by which we get a Gen Milley. And so did I. Until the voters do otherwise, there is nothing anyone in the military can do to change it. So yes, its all on the voters.

Its validated every promotion cycle; we'll try to slip some folks up solely on merit, and they'll get passed over. There's a process, there's a board, there are precepts in the board, but the "standards" are sent to the board by the civil authority through a senior military officer.
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Offline VA Rifleman

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2021, 04:13:28 AM »
TN. Thanks for your insight on transitioning from O5 to O6. Often wondered why leadership went to heck at higher ranks.

A question some of us used to ask ourselves in the private sector. “Are we working on the right thing”.

Several good things happening in the Corp as the Marines are once again reinventing themselves for possible action in the South China Sea.

At least some leaders / planners are working on putting steel on target.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2021, 09:25:35 AM »
An there it is: $5000 and an LOR. His resignation process begins.
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2021, 10:08:11 AM »
I don't know what an LOR is, so does he get his retirement?
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2021, 10:46:55 AM »
Letter of Reprimand, he won’t get a full 20 high 3, but he could have the BRS retirement if he switched a few years back when they offered it. The way it turned out he could have stayed in to 20 if he hadn’t resigned, although that’s probably best. Hell be honorably discharged so full VA.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2021, 11:00:12 AM »
Letter of Reprimand for officers is like a negative counseling chit that means you’ll never promote, never see command again, and if enlisted you’d not be allowed to reenlist. His voluntary resignation probably actually helped him g
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2021, 12:22:03 PM »
Letter of Reprimand, he won’t get a full 20 high 3, but he could have the BRS retirement if he switched a few years back when they offered it. The way it turned out he could have stayed in to 20 if he hadn’t resigned, although that’s probably best. Hell be honorably discharged so full VA.

Well I guess that's a plus.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2021, 01:39:31 PM »
.
  I suspect he has something lined up with a patriot organization, somewhere..

   Maybe Fox  OAN or Black Rifle coffee..lot's oif opportunities, I expect..
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2021, 01:53:26 PM »
I would avoid "Black Rifle Coffee", their like Dan Crenshaw.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2021, 03:03:46 PM »
I see some headlines now saying the judge in the Special CM has asked for a review of the commands involvement. I will say its standard for the results of all CM proceedings to be reviewed, and all parties to be reviewed to ensure the procedure was conducted by the book. So it may simply be some click bait headlines, or it may be that the command over reached in placing him in pre-trial ROM. That won't affect his case, and the results of that review won't make the front page any where. It may also only be to satisfy the congressional interest since two elected officials were I believe physically present during the proceedings, or at least in witness.

LtCol Scheller is not a Trump conservative, that is clear. That he called for accountability should never have been interpreted by anyone as an indication of his political convictions ... it was solely from his personal conviction as a combat veteran, and he has been very clear on that. I think some folks tried to put him in a category he never sought, and doesn't fit. Just because he questioned the decisions under a particular leader doesn't mean he stands with the other party.
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Online Dee

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2021, 03:21:36 PM »
I think your probably right given one of his rants.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2021, 06:45:40 AM »
.
   He got off better than I expected..  A month's pay and a reprimand.  I've seen EM get worse treatment for far less.
  Back in the "brown boot army", there was a phrase among th estockade regulars, which went.." 6 +6 and a kick"
   for relatively minor offenses.
  Translated to ..6 months in jail, forfeit 6 months pay...and a kick out of the Army.  It was that last one particularly, that carried long-term pain.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline mcbammer

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2021, 07:07:10 AM »
   Back during the Civlil War ,A  confederate  soldier  could simply refuse to serve under a C.O. he didnt  feel was  capable and switch over to another .  Maybe why the military today doesnt tolerate independent people .

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2021, 10:12:43 AM »
   Back during the Civlil War ,A  confederate  soldier  could simply refuse to serve under a C.O. he didnt  feel was  capable and switch over to another .  Maybe why the military today doesnt tolerate independent people .

A few years back the Army wanted to know why their junior officers (O-1/2/3) weren't acting independently, thinking outside of the box, innovating. Did a big study, and the response was not what they expected: we're not allowed to, not enough time. That lead to another study, massive study, and the results were published as "Lying to ourselves". I have my students read it. Systems get so big, requirements so many, each leader thinks they're contributing by adding another, the Army literally had more requirements on the typical O-3 than there are hours in a day, days in a week, etc. to get it done. So they just said they did - they assumed if the Army gave them an impossible task, and refused to hear no for an answer, then they must expect to be lied to. It was so widespread that it was validated across all specialties in the Army - SF, Supply, didn't matter. Think about maintenance, training, equipment issues that were lied about in scale.

Congress just reviewed the Navy in the Montgomery report published this past summer. High compliance (i.e. unquestioning obedience to orders), zero risk approach, crippling micro-management, insufficient training ... again widespread. I ask my students, will do so again on Tuesday, if they agree with the findings, and they will invariably say ... yes.

During the draft days, at the junior levels, independence was not wanted. Then it got better, GW1 into OIF/OEF because of the 3 block war/COIN fighting, the Strategic Corporal became a model of an independent junior person who had to be a cop one day, mayor the next, and combat warrior the day after. Some of them promoted, most got burned out. The force is left largely with veterans of the combat years, who are not necessarily combat veterans. They were not independent thinkers, did not do well in ambiguity, and they promoted and are in charge. So we're back to where we were pre-WWII, and the Vietnam era. After Pearl Harbor, the Navy fired most of their COs in a hurry and looked around to find independent leaders to make Captains. They recognized that a high compliance/low independence leader loses every time. I think we're about to learn that lesson the hard way yet again - saddens me to imagine the folks I know dying in that environment, largely due to lack of good leadership not to mention lack of national political support for success.

My time is up - I'm not beltway material, and I'm fine with that. I had someone senior suggest I not wear all of my ribbons in uniform as it intimidates and shames others, and I'm a Chaplain?  :o so ... I can take a hint. I'll have spent the last 3 years in service attempting to prepare O-5/6 and E-9 folks to lead their units into combat, which is a worthy effort ... but I'm not hopeful, honestly. If you've read my responses here over the years, I will speak up when the military is being unjustly characterized, or if the facts of a military related situation are not being relayed. But if you told me that you think this current military is not ready to fight China, or really anybody else, I'd agree.
held fast

Offline mcbammer

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2021, 11:25:51 AM »
   Back during the Civlil War ,A  confederate  soldier  could simply refuse to serve under a C.O. he didnt  feel was  capable and switch over to another .  Maybe why the military today doesnt tolerate independent people .

A few years back the Army wanted to know why their junior officers (O-1/2/3) weren't acting independently, thinking outside of the box, innovating. Did a big study, and the response was not what they expected: we're not allowed to, not enough time. That lead to another study, massive study, and the results were published as "Lying to ourselves". I have my students read it. Systems get so big, requirements so many, each leader thinks they're contributing by adding another, the Army literally had more requirements on the typical O-3 than there are hours in a day, days in a week, etc. to get it done. So they just said they did - they assumed if the Army gave them an impossible task, and refused to hear no for an answer, then they must expect to be lied to. It was so widespread that it was validated across all specialties in the Army - SF, Supply, didn't matter. Think about maintenance, training, equipment issues that were lied about in scale.

Congress just reviewed the Navy in the Montgomery report published this past summer. High compliance (i.e. unquestioning obedience to orders), zero risk approach, crippling micro-management, insufficient training ... again widespread. I ask my students, will do so again on Tuesday, if they agree with the findings, and they will invariably say ... yes.

During the draft days, at the junior levels, independence was not wanted. Then it got better, GW1 into OIF/OEF because of the 3 block war/COIN fighting, the Strategic Corporal became a model of an independent junior person who had to be a cop one day, mayor the next, and combat warrior the day after. Some of them promoted, most got burned out. The force is left largely with veterans of the combat years, who are not necessarily combat veterans. They were not independent thinkers, did not do well in ambiguity, and they promoted and are in charge. So we're back to where we were pre-WWII, and the Vietnam era. After Pearl Harbor, the Navy fired most of their COs in a hurry and looked around to find independent leaders to make Captains. They recognized that a high compliance/low independence leader loses every time. I think we're about to learn that lesson the hard way yet again - saddens me to imagine the folks I know dying in that environment, largely due to lack of good leadership not to mention lack of national political support for success.

My time is up - I'm not beltway material, and I'm fine with that. I had someone senior suggest I not wear all of my ribbons in uniform as it intimidates and shames others, and I'm a Chaplain?  :o so ... I can take a hint. I'll have spent the last 3 years in service attempting to prepare O-5/6 and E-9 folks to lead their units into combat, which is a worthy effort ... but I'm not hopeful, honestly. If you've read my responses here over the years, I will speak up when the military is being unjustly characterized, or if the facts of a military related situation are not being relayed. But if you told me that you think this current military is not ready to fight China, or really anybody else, I'd agree.
  Thankyou for your service and may you enjoy your retirement.

Offline Mule 11

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Re: Marine Lt Col Stuart Scheller Jailed And Facing Court Martial!
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2021, 12:02:44 PM »
I learned early on it did not matter what you did as long as you said yes sir to every order...