Ammo makers

[nw_hunter]

I went to the Fort Worth gunshow Sunday. As far as ammo goes 22 shells were expensive. $10. per box of 50 and I mean the cheap stuff. The 550 round milk carton bulk was marked $85! On the whole there was not a lot of ammo for sale though. Nice AR's going for $1200. to $1400. AK variants were way overpriced as were the few SKS's I saw. Handguns were the most prevalent with prices for any semi-auto outrageous.

I went to my last gun show several years ago! Never again will I pay to get into a venue, that is full of people wanting more money for used and new merchandise, than a retail store.
 

[powderman]

I went to the Fort Worth gunshow Sunday. As far as ammo goes 22 shells were expensive. $10. per box of 50 and I mean the cheap stuff. The 550 round milk carton bulk was marked $85! On the whole there was not a lot of ammo for sale though. Nice AR's going for $1200. to $1400. AK variants were way overpriced as were the few SKS's I saw. Handguns were the most prevalent with prices for any semi-auto outrageous.

I went to my last gun show several years ago! Never again will I pay to get into a venue, that is full of people wanting more money for used and new merchandise, than a retail store.
 

 
HUNTER. Agreed Sir, I haven't gotten a bargain at a gun show in over 30 years. Last we went to was just like you said, everything over retail.
Many years ago I hit a bargain last day of the gun show. A vendor cut me a real deal on primers and powder. She  was packing up and tired of loading her stuff. POWDERMAN. 

[rickt300]

A friend is here from out of town and wanted to go. I sold an old .38 for what I was asking and bought 2 30 rd. AR magazines for $20. each. I mainly posted to show the ammo situation is more dire than most think. AR pricing was not that far out of line but barring prices there was not a lot of ammo there.

[Anna]

When oil company's see an opportunity to gouge the consumer they sure pump up supply .
Remember the $5.00 a gallon gas, but there was plenty of it !
The state gov loved it because they were getting more sales tax revenue .
It was tax heaven for them they pay for their gas from the lowest bidder .
Wall Street was in hog heaven also , so what's the deal with the ammo ?
The gov knows you have to have gas, but they don't think you need any ammo .

This is war guys and we are getting our bu++s kicked while blaming each other .
They are real good at a manufactured crisis its about the only word in Obamas vocabulary .
But while we are looking in this direction over all of this what else are they doing ?
There has to be some former military officers here , were you not trained to take things like this
into account from your enemy?
If not we sure waisted a lot of money on your training when a little gal from Roswell can see it
plain as day ! Must be the aliens I need a new tin foil hat 

[ironglow]

  I won't say how I found out..you will have to take my word for it, but the ammo manufacturers are having a hard time getting enough raw materials...   Wonder why..

[Anna]

Thank you Captain ! Finally a really believable logistics report !
IG we don't need links or opinions right now not even mine .
You have pointed out by triangulation the only thing that makes any sense .
This is three dimensional thinking people.
Learn to do it , take all things into account not just what you believe .
Or read on the Internet we are not computer programs we are patriots !
 

[powderman]

I know that shelves are pretty bare everywhere, but I really wonder just how much ammo is actually being delivered and bought?? Is most of it being bought up by hoarders, possibly to resell at a great profit?? OR, is the ammo just not being delivered?? I would think that at least once in a while we could go to WM or anywhere else and there would be at least SOME ammo. POWDERMAN. 

[thumper113]

Powderman,

Regular shipments hitting all our Walmarts.  Folks are standing in line before 7 am and it's all gone within 2 hours of hitting the store.

Lots of folks getting it, you just have to be willing to get up early and stand in line (and be there the day the truck gets in).

[Lizzie-6]

  I won't say how I found out..you will have to take my word for it, but the ammo manufacturers are having a hard time getting enough raw materials...   Wonder why..

I won't say how I found out either...you will just have to take my word for it, but every refinery had to be taken down for maintenance before they could begin producing the new "spring blend" unleaded...   Wonder why...

[magooch]

Why?  Because of stupid federal laws and regulations.  And I suspect that the oil companies don't really mind having the excuse to keep the speculators bidding the price of oil up.

[gypsyman]

Lead,copper,steel,petrolum, all world market items. China buys a bunch, price goes up. Wish I could say the firearms industry is exempt from this, but, they are not. As far as gas going up for the summer blend, big bunch of hogwash!! My brother worked at a refinery for 30 years,retired 2 years ago. His son, my nephew is working there now. BP/Husky--See those huge containers, usually about 15-20 of them in the fields alonside the refinery's. They hold 100's of thousands of gallons of gas/kerosene/etc. When they are preparing to blend for summer/winter gas, they stock up big time. No shortage what so ever, plenty in reserve. Gas jumped .20-.25 a gal around here since Monday. Biggest crock of BS they can hand out. 15 years ago, price would drop, so gas stations would sell out of the winter/summer blend, for whatever season we were heading into. Now they raise it, because they can. No different than when I was a kid, use to pump gas at my dad's carryout/gas station. Check oil,wipe windows,air in tires. All for .27/gal. Try and find that know!! gypsyman

[goodshot]

Anna, I'm was just thinking about the brother who traded a rifle for a 2006 Crown Vic, made me think of the old adage, "a used Ford is better than a new anything else".
Blessings,
SS

[SHOOTALL]

In our country one we used the gold standard . Then we went to  silver . Then to paper . Well China uses the copper standard. Any product that involves copper has gone up in price. I would guess as lead is more restricted in use mines will close and the remaining mine(s) will be forced to reduce production and raise prices to meet fixed cost . Quality steel is a product that is produced often times by the same companies that produce less expensive steel. When steel demand slows down the cost to keep the plant open FIXED COST often remain the same so the better steel prices go up . Add govt. buying and its easy to understand the shortage.

[buffermop]

Would it be advisable to post pone buying reloading components as this time and see what the future in both matireals and laws pending?

[Oldshooter]

Would it be advisable to post pone buying reloading components as this time and see what the future in both matireals and laws pending?

you know I was wondering the same thing, but my thought was should I wait and see what availability is going to be and price. But the Fact is if I see something I need, iiiiiiaaaaaaaaaammmmm prolly gonna get it. unless of course it costs an internal organ or sumpn.

[ironglow]

  I'm with Oldshooter here;  If it is anywhere near a fair price..don't hesitate..  Don't be afraid to stock up if you get a chance...properly stored, ammo and components will keep..

[JonnyReb]

Its an investment, if nothing else. Price of ammo and components probably won't go down much if at all, what does..?  Even if decent supply resumes, I PROMISE we'll see this situation occur again
Someday the stuff might REALLY be worth something.

 I think about a friends dad, a mild mannered insurance agent, long since retired actually, in his late sixties.
He's not a gun nut, never talked about them much when we were growing up, but I remember that he had some kind of stockpile, back in the early-mid 80's. I ask my buddy about it the other day, if his dad had some guns put away back then. He laughed, he's also a mild mannered insurance agent just like his dad. He said yeah, " dad bought a mini 14 way back then and 1000 rounds of .223. Bunch of magazines. We pulled it out not long ago actually, beautiful gun". Here indeed, was a man ahead of his time he's never worried about ammo and while I realize 1000 rounds is nothing to most of us, to him its plenty. His son on the other hand, suprised me by pulling out his 6 month old AR he'd fortunately bought last year for about 700 bucks complete. Very nice I told him. How much ammo you got for it, I ask? He looked a bit sad and said"100 rounds".   J

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Ironglow:
"  I'm with Oldshooter here;  If it is anywhere near a fair price..don't hesitate..  Don't be afraid to stock up if you get a chance...properly stored, ammo and components will keep.."


Exactly why we are in shortage. The bigger problem being that many people are not even waiting for "near fair price" and appear to be willing to pay any amount.
GuzziJohn

[Dixie Dude]

I reload, and reloading components have gone up, and primers are nowhere to be found.  Powders can be substituted, some are better than others for accuracy,etc, depending on caliber, but they all still go bang.  Bullets are still available, especially Hornady bullets.  I don't think Hornady has a big contract with the Feds for Ammo.  I know Federal and CCI (which are both owned by ATK, who made the solid boosters for the Space Shuttle and solid ICBM rockets).  I think ATK also owns Sierra and Lake City.  Remington and Winchester, don't know if they have any Fed contracts, but Remington is owned by Cerebus, and Winchester is owned by Fabrique National who also owns Browning.  Then there is Spanish Aquilla, and S&B, Privi-partisan, and Nosler which are owned by European companies.  Then the Russian companies Wolf and Tula.  Some people have found Wolf primers and they say they work ok.  Feds can limit imports and probably do.  I know to get out of limited imports, FN has built their Winchester factory in South Carolina.  Beretta also has a factory in South Carolina to get out of import duties. 
 
There are several reasons.
 
1) Prepping
2) Government contracts
3) Lots of new gun owners, from what I heard probably 10 million new gun owners and growing every day.
4) Existing gun owners waiting the until things got bad to decide they want an AR, SKS, AK, or other type weapon or pistol, then needing ammo.
5) I know of one guy locally after Sandy Hook, went to the local Gander Mountain and bought 13 AR-15's (all they had in stock) and all their 223 ammo and spend $20,000 cash.  Don't know what he is going to do with all that, but he owns several apartment complexes and trailer parks, so he is a wealthy man.  Maybe he bought them for family members or for himself. 
 
I've heard primers might be in short supply for about 8 months. 
 
At least I have about 30 lbs of lead I so I can cast bullets, and I have brass which is reuseable until it splits.  I also know how to make gun powder.  Primers are the hard part.   

[KIMBER45]

I just stocked up on powder and primers .not a problem around here if you go to the right store. There is no loaded ammo or bullets to be found around here. I have an unlimited supply of wheel weights.If I didn't cast, I'd be in big trouble.

[SHOOTALL]

Would it be advisable to post pone buying reloading components as this time and see what the future in both matireals and laws pending?

As long as buyers pay the high price the price will remain the same. HIGH.
I wonder why no investigation has been mounted to see if retailers inflated prices of items they had on hand when the crisis began ? There are laws aginst such pratices .
 
No you better get what you need now if nothing else it woulf hedge inflation .

[Brett]

Would it be advisable to post pone buying reloading components as this time and see what the future in both matireals and laws pending?

As long as buyers pay the high price the price will remain the same. HIGH.
I wonder why no investigation has been mounted to see if retailers inflated prices of items they had on hand when the crisis began ? There are laws aginst such pratices .
 
No you better get what you need now if nothing else it woulf hedge inflation .

The above statements are a bit contradictory aren't they?

[ironglow]

Quote from Ironglow:
"  I'm with Oldshooter here;  If it is anywhere near a fair price..don't hesitate..  Don't be afraid to stock up if you get a chance...properly stored, ammo and components will keep.."


Exactly why we are in shortage. The bigger problem being that many people are not even waiting for "near fair price" and appear to be willing to pay any amount.
GuzziJohn

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
   Did you notice that when gasoline or almost any commodity spikes way up in price, they eventually come back down...but not to where they started.  I seriously doubt we will see the old 500 round boxes for 1 $15-$16 anymore.
  I'm guessing they will settle back to about a $10 bill more..$25-$26..  Just my $ .02

[SHOOTALL]

Would it be advisable to post pone buying reloading components as this time and see what the future in both matireals and laws pending?

As long as buyers pay the high price the price will remain the same. HIGH.
I wonder why no investigation has been mounted to see if retailers inflated prices of items they had on hand when the crisis began ? There are laws aginst such pratices .
 
No you better get what you need now if nothing else it woulf hedge inflation .

The above statements are a bit contradictory aren't they?

How so ? what you underlined are fact as I see it . I think anyone with a slight idea of enomics can see that all the debt this country has will cause inflation as money is printed to cover it. In the future dollars will be worth less so the products you own will be worth more . If you buy on credit and hold off paying the card until the inflation comes around then you can pay the bill with dollars of less value. 

[rickt300]

It is true that regular shipments are getting to the local WalMart but the amounts delivered are small to ridiculously small.  On top of this there is very little at the warehouse the ammo is stored and shipped at. My local WalMart has not recieved a single 22 shell in 4 weeks. Get off the hoarder concept, this is more troubling than that by far. At my local walmart there are 2 boxes of high priced 22-250 and 5 boxes of similar 300 Winchester magnum.  Plus the people that recieve the ammo don't know what they are getting so it makes it tough for anybody to know if what they want is going to show up.

[Awf Hand]

-copied over from 'round the pot bellied stove.
 
Current demand for ammo is unprecendented.  A friend at Hodgdon said they are running three shifts a day, seven days a week.  I contacted Federal Ammunition of Anoka, MN to check on availablity of the target, match and UM .22rf early this week.  There are some of the product lines that they do ONE run of per year and ship it to distributors.  From there it goes to stores where people buy it up for ...?  Just to have?  Shooting at beer cans?  I don't know...  The shelves will not be filled with some of these products any time soon, as they have switched their production to the products for which they see higher demand.  They're shipping those out as fast as they can.  Adding production capacity is risky, as the demand could subside.
 
On the sales/consumer end of things, I contacted our local large sporting goods store.  They receive shipments of ammo DAILY.  They don't even bother to shelve the ammo anymore until the mobs have left, and the less common calibers are all that are remaining.  Every morning they pull a pallet on to the floor and it becomes a door buster for the first 2 hours as people fight to get their boxes.  I bet none of them are dealers that will take their purchases to the weekend gun shows to resell. 
 
I suspect many of the cailbers sold that are more likely be used in semi-automatics, .223 especially, are in higher demand as folks will blow off a hundred or two on a range visit.
 
Much like the panic that ensued with gasoline on the afternoon of Sept 11th, 2001, people are immediately buying what they feel will be a precious commodity and buying what they think they may never buy again.  My fear is that this will "bend" the prices of ammunition upward and .22rf that once sold for 2$/50 will stay higher until supplies are fully restocked along the full distribution chain.  I also fear that the quality may go down as the production equipment is run longer between service shutdowns.  Some folks are just happy to hear the bang and consider their 1" fifty-yard groups "tackdriving", but I'm not doing any 50BR with my .22 until I know I can get quality product.
 
People just need to calm the hell down. 

[ironglow]

Shall we put 2&2 together gents?
   The regime takes over in 2008..  Right away, along with the announcement of a future brownshirt army they move against the economy.  Then they start taking our rights and spending money taxed away from us, on "business ventures" such as Solyndra, Fiskers and a host of other failed "green" enterprises..Another govt venture with our money.. called " Solopower",  just went belly-up this morning.
  They have indebted us so badly..that it is said they are eyeing our savings accounts and retirement funds... Pressure is building among the citizens.
  The regime tries to outlaw our guns..they go after rifles...when it's handguns which are doing most of the killing. Of course, handguns aren't near so dangerous to brownshirts as are rifles.
   Failed... can't take our guns...   Next move..shut down amunition manufacturing..after the DHS already has their billions of rounds? 
      Is it easier to somehow derail the manufacture of raw materials..so the supply of ammo will be limited, should the SHTF.?   Just wondering, just my $ .02

[blind ear]

   Did you notice that when gasoline or almost any commodity spikes way up in price, they eventttually come back down...but not to where they started.  I seriously doubt we will see the old 500 round boxes for 1 $15-$16 anymore.
  I'm guessing they will settle back to about a $10 bill more..$25-$26..  Just my $ .02

-
Fuel is a commodity with a necessary rate of consumption, with standard consumption an oversupply is avoided. With ammo, if it isn't consumed it will reach an oversupply and should respond to supply and demand. If ammo does reach a standard comsumptiom rate above that of the past we are into a new era anyway.  We will find out if we can carry the burden of the Secound Ammendment for the future of our children. Time for talk will be, or may be, past? ear

[jcn59]

I think the reason for the ammo shortage is that the ammo manufacturers are prioritizing government contracts.  When the gov owns their business it will be too late for them.

[garbhead]

I got an email notice @ 10:35 am from Midway USA that they received a big shipment of Winchester .40 S&W 165gr 100 round bulk packs. I immediately clicked on the link in the email and was going to order some. @10:36 they sent a pop-up that it was already sold out...The stated limit was 2 boxes per customer. There's no way they could have sold a large shipment in < 1 minute....I smell a rat