Author Topic: H&R better get their act together... (Read 5203 times)

ironglow · « **on:** October 09, 2012, 05:13:59 PM »

There's a new kid on the block; http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_543972_-1?Ntt=cva&Ntk=All

This one comes in 7mm-08 or .243 Win.. fiber optic sights available Sounds like a great medium game rifle.

Here's their video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLqLSAGV4dg
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I'm already looking at the Scout, in a .44 Mag: http://www.cva.com/Scout-Rifle-from-CVA.php

bucmeister · « **Reply #1 on:** October 09, 2012, 05:27:18 PM »

Time will tell. They will have to demonstrate quality first and then seriously expand the rounds offered to pose much of a threat to H&R in the near future. Not saying it won't happen in time just doubt it will be any time soon.

joeinwv · « **Reply #2 on:** October 09, 2012, 05:55:40 PM »

I have a CVA Acura 2 muzzle loader that locks up like a vault. If their BP guns are any indication of fit and finish, I would not hesitate to buy a center fire gun from them.

Dinny · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2012, 02:49:22 AM »

I first saw the CVA rifles back in 2010. I think it's great they have a lower hammer. I haven't seen any useful innovative changes in the H&R platform for years. Maybe H&R will catch on when CVA starts lapping them in sales. In the meantime I will continue to bob my own hammers, tune my own triggers and bed my own forends.

Thanks, Dinny

mechanic · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:30:19 AM »

If the CVA's go over big, the price point will likely begin to rise. Right now they are just trying to buy market share.

It would be good though, if H&R would take note, and improve their product. The newer ones I have seen are diminishing in quality. Thats why I like and buy the old ones.

Ben

ironglow · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:35:12 AM »

I really wouldn't want anything negative to happen to H&R..having liked them so much over the years. I just hope Marlington doesn't try to "rest on their laurels" and let the 'beancounters' mess things up!
In the Scout and Hunter models, apparently wood will have to be offered for some folks. Although I am a righty..I can see how the ambidextrous Monte Carlo and the reversable hammer pin would be giving lefties complete consideration.
From the Scout model up, they do use Bergara fluted barrels. Spanky, has had some fine results with his .44 mag.

Deerhunter#1 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2012, 04:14:52 AM »

I think the damage has been done already and really by themselves. Poor quality the culprate. You lnow 50the dollars difference wouldnt make a difference to me if quality was good but it isnt unless it is worked on from our handi friend in illion. I have a 25-06 barrel on its way and that will probobly be my last handi. Continued issues have tainted my taste for them or be it any products from remington at this point

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2012, 06:03:29 AM »

I like my Handi's for what they are, but cosmetically those rifles look a whole lot better. Haven't seen one up close, but anything will be better than H&R's finish.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2012, 06:07:11 AM »

mo_bio · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2012, 08:53:21 AM »

With the stainless optima right about the same price I hate to admit it but they may be getting a leg up on our beloved handis. I hope they will get into a price/quality war.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2012, 11:47:58 AM »

Guys, if it was a level playing field the price could have stayed close to the same, but look at fuel, food and whatever else. The inflation/devaluation of our currency mean that NECESSARILY the price for everything WILL go up. This is not a political rant, but a fiscal reality and I do hate to have to bring it into this venue where we would rather not have to deal with these things.
I am pretty well convinced that soon we will look at this as 'the good old days'.

trotterlg · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2012, 01:06:12 PM »

I would love to see sales numbers particulary from the Rossi break action guns compared to the H&R's. From an inexperienced persons point of view, the only difference between a H&R and Rossi is $100.00. I don't understand how H&R can sell their shotguns at Walmart for $129.00 all the time with Rossi about the same price but then have to sell their rifles for so much more than Rossi can sell theirs for. Unless H&R has just fallen behind in their manufacturing process to the point they are too labor intensive to compete with a modernized Rossi process. Larry

45-70.gov · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2012, 01:57:06 PM »

http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_464658_-1?ICID=CRT:0345-00246-7104

stainless
scope ready
and a 45-70

bucmeister · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2012, 02:42:10 PM »

To bad they don't offer the CVA in a 357 Mag or 35 Rem or even a 358 Win for those that don't want to deal with the level of recoil the Whelen is noted for and don't happen to reload. My interest is because of the 35 caliber single shot primitive weapons season we have here in MS.

I realize I am being a contrarian SOB in my persistent resistance to the "Whelen or nothing" mentality when it comes to bottle necked rounds offered in the 35 caliber single shot rifles, but I guess I am just old enough and tired enough of being herded into whatever niche some knot headed corporate bean counters want to force us into. If the CVA were offered in the 35 Rem I would have gladly bought one in their stainless steel version rather than the Handi I settled for and if in the 358 Win it would be near about perfect needing only the relief cut for the 356 rim.

While on such subjects, I also agree with those that have questioned why H&R can price shotguns competitive with others but their rifles sell for $100 more while many experienced Handi users on this site have noted the quality is DOWN. If their quality was $100 better than the other guy's then it would make sense, however it definitely sounds like you are not getting what you pay for these days from H&R.

geezer56 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2012, 02:58:29 PM »

I held the scout today. It wears the handi out. Feel and fit is great, finish and lockup are nice. $279 for synthetic and fluted stainless, with a 3X9X40 Konus Pro scope. Handi needs to pick it up, I am afraid. I have a synthetic and blued 35 Whelen that actually goes bang every time, love it.

Jeff H · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2012, 04:38:41 PM »

Quote from: bucmeister on October 10, 2012, 02:42:10 PM

To bad they don't offer the CVA in a 357 Mag or 35 Rem or even a 358 Win.......................

I'd buy a CVA in .357 if it weren't long, heavy and sans sights (or even D/T'd holes for them). I look at the almost $300 for a Handi in its current configuration for that little cartridge and can't see having to then cut, crown, D/T and buy sights.

My suspicion is that the current .357 barrel is what it is because it is cheaper to make that way. If I had to pay almost $300 a slimmer, more contoured barrel with decent sights, I would be more ok with almost $300, but the bare bones offering is almost $300.

If there were a Handi like I wanted (and made as nicely as my .223 Handi) and it was $260 to $275, I would buy that before the CVA but neither is available the way I want ot so I don't see either coming home with me.

But, for $200, having to cut, crown, D/T and buy sights would be easier to take.

ironglow · « **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2012, 05:02:50 PM »

The CVA scout doesn't yet come in a .357, but it does come in .44 Mag..just more knockdown power. Long and heavy barrel..the .44 mag has a 20" barrel..how much shorter do you want it? And to sweeten the pie..it is a Bregra, fluted barrel. It comes with a very nice, one piece scope mount/rings....and the package (on the street) is $249. For that price you can get some sights mounted and save that mount/rings for when you're older..

..like me..

In the thread "I think I'm in love...again"..Spanky says his Scout .44 shoots great;
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H&R Centerfire Rifles / Re: I think I'm in love..again.. « on: October 04, 2012, 11:36:54 PM »
Go for it IG. I've got a 44 mag Scout and it's a one hole shooter with Winchester white box ammo. You get a nice fluted barrel, great trigger, nice scope mount, etc. Don't listen to the Handiholic naysayers... the Scout's are great guns and you'll love it.
Spanky

trotterlg · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2012, 05:29:04 PM »

As I have mentioned before, I think Rossi will, some day, buy the H&R line just to kill it off and gain their market share. If H&R doesn't make a profit it will soon be on the block and Rossi will have a shot at it. Larry

Jeff H · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2012, 05:49:46 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on October 10, 2012, 05:29:04 PM

As I have mentioned before, I think Rossi will, some day, buy the H&R line just to kill it off and gain their market share. If H&R doesn't make a profit it will soon be on the block and Rossi will have a shot at it. Larry

That's what I am worried about and I wonder whether Remington would miss it? How much are they willing to put into the line to keep it viable?

Jeff H · « **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2012, 06:00:30 PM »

Quote from: ironglow on October 10, 2012, 05:02:50 PM

The CVA scout doesn't yet come in a .357, but it does come in .44 Mag..just more knockdown power. Long and heavy barrel..the .44 mag has a 20" barrel..how much shorter do you want it?......................

I could certainly live with 20".

The "long and heavy barrel I mentioned was the Handi, which is 22" and also seems rather chubby. If it were more conoured, I could probably accept the 22" but the length and girth have to add up.

Yeah, "more knockdown" on both ends.

I'm looking for something sub-6# if possible and that will have more recoil than the bad discs in my neck like. I had a Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. and it was not fun. I currently have a Rossi 92 in .357 and have no problems with it. Very short, light and the recoil is no problem at all.

Otherwise, a .44 would have been my first pick.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2012, 06:02:16 PM »

Neither company (Rossi or CVA) will get any of my $$$.
I have been very happy with my H&Rs/NEFs over the years.
For what they are IMO no other gun shots like them.
I don't necessarily mean accuracy but in shotabilty.
The way the stocks are shaped seems to absorb the recoil much better than any of the others including the Encores.
They just feel right when you throw them up to the shoulder.
To me, an Encore kicks much harder in the bigger calibers then any H&R except maybe the plastic stock ones.
I only use wood on my guns with few exceptions.
Even my little 16" 45/70 Handi doesn't kick near as bad as an Encore with 28" barrel in the same caliber.
With all the ones I have to choose from that is saying something!

LONGTOM

trotterlg · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2012, 07:43:06 PM »

If what I think will happen does you will not have a choice, H&R's will be gone, that will leave Rossi and any other break action to duke it out for the low end business. For what ever reason, it seems that H&R cannot compete at the low end price point, that only leaves quality of product to sell with. Quality seems to be lacking now, so I think time is short. Get with it Remington or you will loose it. Larry

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 10, 2012, 09:13:06 PM »

I have been saying that H&R is pricing itself out of existence for some time now. When a plain Jane Handi went over the $200 mark was the tipping point. I was basically told I was full of it. Shipping costs were up, material costs were up, etc. Well now they are $300 or more, 50% more, but wages have not gone up 50%. Inflation is not that high. There are a whole bunch of economy bolt guns in the same price range now. They have not gone up 50% in price in the same time period. And as mentioned the Rossi and CVA are starting to nip at the Handi heals. Do not get me wrong, The Handi is a good rifle and is a very good platform for rimmed cases, but with the Rossi and now CVA coming it at the same or lower price point, I afraid the days for Handi rifles are numbered.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 11, 2012, 04:09:59 AM »

Inflation, officially reported isnt 'that high', but when you double the money in circulation each dollar becomes worth half as much; its mathematical and we're living it. The purchase price of goods and services are rising to balance out and are far from doing so. It is amazing that some new offerings are priced as cheaply as they are, and as said, it is to create market share; be sure they will be rising in price too. I suggest you seriously consider getting whatever you want now as later on you will be trying to decide whether to spend your available money on housing, food, fuel or medical with precious little left over for indulgences.

Wagguy80 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 11, 2012, 04:17:29 AM »

H&R Shotguns are so much cheaper because the receiver is different than their rifles. Which is why only rimfire, .357, and .44mag barrels can be fitted on a shotgun receiver.

All .35 Whelen in any single shot rifle will missfire it's a ammo issue not a rifle issue. CVA's "fix" for that is to put in a stronger firing pin to ensure the round goes bang even if it slides forward in the chamber. Until it's been "Fixed" it's just a matter of time until you get a off batch of ammo. Should be irrelevent in another year or two as the popularity of this round increases.

However after much research I came home with a H&R .444 marlin flatter than a .45-70 none of the .35 whelen problems and probably the best performer with factory ammo. Handloaders of course can get a lot more out of all 3 rounds.

Including the rings, scope, and a box of hornady ammo I was out the door for $50 less than the local 1 week super sale price on a CVA Scout in .35 Whelen if I factor in scope and ammo for it as well.

Also H&R is still the cheapest option for an interchangable barrel system on the market. In fact Encore, and Apex barrels cost more than H&R rifles. Sure they are nice but here in MS we have a bottom line...

If it puts the meat on the ground, and does it for less money thats the one you want. Which is why I see H&R rifles wherever I go hunting around here. Even guys who have an Apex or Encore still have a H&R or two in the cabinet or truck.

YRUpunting? · « **Reply #25 on:** October 11, 2012, 05:24:33 AM »

I agree H&R has a problem, but I'm not sure it's CVA. A month or so ago I was at a rural southern Indiana mom and pop gun shop, they have made a living for 35 years at this little rural shop. He told me he would no longer sell new H&R Partner shotguns. His cost is now $158.

I priced a new Sportster 22LR at Walmart a month ago - $186.

The big gun shop in the area increased the price of 357 and 44 Mags from $249 to $299 a couple months back.

My Handi shopping is real quick these days. Quick look through the used rack is all I do.

bucmeister · « **Reply #26 on:** October 11, 2012, 05:37:02 AM »

It may be the ammo and not the gun, however I would have to have more information before I could really accept that conclusion. Point being attention to critical measurements. In reading over the Mike Bellm site one can't help but notice his point that he DOES NOT cut his chambers to the SAAMI standard dimensions and if I interpret correctly he implies that he does not like to chamber that "loose". A loose chamber overworks the reloader's brass and allows for a lower degree of accuracy with factory fodder.

Carrying that theory forward, it would be interesting to find out if 35 Whelen barrels built by him or MGM have experienced any FTF issues. Ammunition manufacturers have to size their rounds to fit all chambers down to the very minimum SAAMI specs if not even a bit smaller so if the barrel maker happens to cut chambers to a middle of the road SAAMI spec then it would seem logical that especially rimless rounds with small shoulders and flatter angles would be more inclined to "slip" a bit deeper into the chamber enough to FTF. I'm not a gun barrel maker nor a gun smith but simple logic causes me to suspect that "IF" the gun/barrel manufacturers would go to a minimum SAAMI spec almost NO-GO tight chamber policy the incidence of FTF would probably disappear. One only has to look at the accuracy problems on some single shots that are reportedly corrected by a minutely larger hinge pin for the action to see that 1/1000ths of inches makes differences. Attention to details, quality control, and elimination of the "its good enough" attitude is the best answer to this issue just as it was in the auto industry back in the early 70's when Detroit was building throw away cars with almost no warranty. Just MHO. It, quality of work, quality of product is also the answer to H&R staying viable.

It boils down to priorities and pride, priorities of the company and pride or the lack thereof in the workmanship of the employees.

tykempster · « **Reply #27 on:** October 11, 2012, 06:49:38 AM »

H&R needs to seriously offer more bang for the buck. Strengthen things up. Improve aesthetics. Ergonomics need addressed. This all coming from a market that keeps evolving, and H&R seems to be pretty stagnant.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #28 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:07:15 AM »

I have always said that the 35 Whelen problems in the H&R was not the gun or barrel but the ammo or rather I should say a mismatch between the chambers and the SAAMI spec ammo.
If it was just the H&Rs that had FTF problems then I would say it was a chamber problem (to much headspace) but just about every rifle mfg. has had FTF issues with the 35 Whelen.
To me that means either all the MFGs that chamber barrels for the 35 Whelen is either cutting their chambers wrong or the SAAMI specs for the cartridge is wrong.
Which ever it is I do not know but once fired brass when re loaded and fired in the same chamber very seldom has a FTF problem.
Does that tell you that something between the two is wrong.
They don't match and until that issue is addressed and corrected the FTF problem will continue.
Either fix the ammo or change the SAAMI specs for cutting the chamber.
Not that hard to figure out.

LONGTOM

bucmeister · « **Reply #29 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:38:21 AM »

AMEN Longtom AMEN!! I don't doubt for a minute though that most manufacturers operate on a "as long as it is within + or - x% or + or - xx thousandths of specifications it is good enough to not be scrapped" type mentality.

But any way one cuts it you are right, either the ammo companies or the SAAMI specs need tuning up. It seems that maybe the Whelen case design is just not as forgiving of the "loose" adherence to specs of today's typical mass manufacturing operations as most other rounds might be. I don't know, just speculating, but one thing is for certain, something is wrong somewhere along the line.