Anyway to slick-up an 870 Express into an 870 Wingmaster?

[mannyrock]

Dear Folks,
 
   The cost of new and used 870 Wingmasters in 20 gauge seems very very high.  On the other hand, used 870 Express models can be found at fairly reasonable price.  Problem is, every new and used Express I ever handled or shot felt extremely "sticky" to me, compared to the glass smooth Wingmasters.
 
  Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the Express and Wingmaster have identical internal parts, made of identical metal, and that the only difference is the exterior spray coat, and the fit and polish of the internals.
 
  Is there a list or sticky that describes  exactly what parts to polish of an Express, and exactly how to polish them up, to get an Express to be as slick as a Wingmaster?  Seems like this would be an extremely common question.
 
 
  Thanks, Mannyrock
 

[keith44]

Well, Mannyrock I can tell you what I did to smooth my 12 and 20 ga expresses, but I can't say what is the right way or if you can really get an express as slick as a wingmaster.


Obviously strip the gun down to bare receiver (with magazine still attached) I stoned all the "ways" for the action bars, bolt carrier and bolt.  Then I put lapping compound in the ways, re-assembled the gun pumped the heck out of it (couple or three dozen cycles) break it back down, clean the crap out of it, oil it re-assemble and try it.  Took about four tries with 600 grit lapping compound to get mine as slick as I wanted it. Also while you're in there, re-stake the cartridge stop bars, and fit the fire-control to the frame (one of mine was very tight and tried to bind, one was fine from the factory).


Hope this helps.

[STUMPJMPR]

I believe the internals of the wingmaster may be chrome plated as well.

[cwlongshot]

I have a couple express models myself. One I did exactly as Keith described. Came out great.

Another, my first bought in the early 80's is as slick as any I have ever shot and in my line of work, I have shot a "couple"... It's slicker than goose excrement on glass.... . Just honest use!! 

CW

[SHOOTALL]

If you look the Wingmaster has more machine work , easiest place to note it is along the top of the reciver - there is a groove that mates with the rib on a WM the express is almost rounded. The bbls are thicker on the Express compsred to the WM at least the older ones . Fit and finish is different. Plastic parts may replace metal in some cases. The trigger guard/ fire control group looks different . And the Express feels heavier to me. The wood finish is night and day . I have had both , I don't think it a polishing job. Better to shoot or dry fire ( with snap cap as that works the entire action feed included )and work the action alot if anything.

[Swampman]

No real metal difference except one is matte blued and one is polished before bluing.  The wood is birch on the Express and Walnut on the Wingmaster.  Your Wingmaster is smoother because it's old.  The triggerguard on the express is plastic.  Barrels are interchangeable.  For hunting the Express is probably a better choice.

[mannyrock]

 
   One difference I have seen is that in the Express, the shell follower that travels inside the magazine tube is a crppy piece of plastic, that often "sticks" when the tube is empty and you are trying to shove in the first shell.  The part in the Wingmaster is steel. 
 
   I think Brownells sells a steel replacement follower for the 12 gauge Express, but not the 20 gauge.
 
   My wife had an Express, that she used on our farm for 14 years.  That darned rough finish is a dirt magnet.  If you have any dirt or clay on your hands, or it touches dirt or clay, the dirt or clay sticks to the finish and gets down into it.  You had to practically scrub it off with a brush.  Not so with the Wingmaster.  Dirt or clay just wipes right off.
 
   Something to consider if you want a working gun that your going to have knocking around the farm 365 days a year.
 
Manny
 

[STUMPJMPR]

Expresses are also parkerized which gives them that rough finish.

[Swampman]

Expresses are also parkerized which gives them that rough finish.

A lot of people think that.
 
New Wingmasters have a plastic shell follower too.

[cwlongshot]

I tell ya something even the express model has gone thru a change... I have three and all are at least 10 Yrs, all are nearly identicle to my WM sans the finish and wood/plastic stocks. Oh and of coarse they are not a smooth.
 
BUT I was in a gun shop tonight and I picked up a brand new express... MUCH different then mine! The fire control is thicker, its got the funky remington key thingie... and WAY ROUGH!!  Makes the he Mossy 500 look like a HI GRADE!!!!  NOT IMPRESSED!!
 
CW

[Swampman]

The "Key Thingy" has been gone for years.  That's not a new gun.

[cwlongshot]

The "Key Thingy" has been gone for years.  That's not a new gun.

Ooh it was new my friend... May have been old stock... but it was a new gun! 
 
The "thick" trigger guard was NOT appealing and the action was like sand....in molasses....once it moved it would cycle... Guess I was more "spoiled" than I thought... My orig express will slide open on its own if you depress the release... This one not even close it would not slide at all from any position... and its price was above what I paid for some '80's Wingmasters NEW!! LOL But everything has gone up since thirty years ago...

[Swampman]

A new express doesn't have the style of triggerguard you mentioned.  30 years of wear tends to make them smoother....

[STUMPJMPR]

CW,

I tend to look for older guns.   New guns today tend to be lacking the quality like you describe.  You can usually by a better used gun at half the price of a new crappy one.  The only thing most older shotguns will be fixed choke.  My dad  carries a winchester 1200 from the 70's.  It is the smoothest gun I've ever used.  I tried to get him to buy a new one after it flooded in Katrina.  His gun looks like crap from the flood, but he won't trade it in.

[gunnut69]

The 1200 winchesters don't bring much on the used gun market and those made as house brand guns are quite cheap. I bought 4 for around $150 each just a few months ago. All had walnut stocks and steel actions with the rotating bolt head locking mechanism.. Not as slick an action as the 870 but very cheap. Fixed chokes of course but that can be altered!

[keith44]

nothin' wrong with a win 1200, good solid dependable shotguns.  I just prefer the Remmys.  The fore grip where you cycle the thing just fits my hand better, and barrel swaps are easier cause you can actually find barrels to fit the remmys.  The Winchesters are not popular enough in my area to have barrels available in any quantity.

[streak]

Back in the early 2000`s I bought a Mod 870 Express 12 ga NIB on sale for about $214. The action was not to bad! I took the gun out for the first time on a chukar hunt.
 I had never fired the gun prior to this due to time constraints!
Well I arrived at the hunting area, let my lab out and he ran around doing his "morning ritual"! After that he took off and in a short time he got really "birdy".
I put it in high gear to get up with him and saw three chukars running just before they flushed! At the flush they came up in a perfect fan pattern!
The first shot I took was at the leftmost bird which folded, then I went to the center bird and got him, the third bird on the far right was a pretty good ways out now, but I swung and folded him also! So I thought, this shotgun is going to be allright and it has! Even smoother action than before!
The barrel is 28" with a modified choke! I was shooting 2 3/4" #6 field loads.
The last bird was at a range of 35-40 yards out!
Prior to this Mod 870 Express I was shooting a Mod 1100 in a 12 gauge.

[SHOOTALL]

No real metal difference except one is matte blued and one is polished before bluing other than in machine work as evivenced by the top of the reciver. .  The wood is birch or plastic on the Express and Walnut on the Wingmaster.  Your Wingmaster is smoother because it's old.Not really as it is newer than the express , The triggerguard on the express is plastic.  Barrels are interchangeable.  For hunting the Express is probably a better choice. that would depend on the hunt and expectation of the owner. Would the express be at home on a high end dove shoot or phesant hunt where high grade guns were the norm ?

 
 
BTW the express w/28 inch bbl vent rib is 6 1/8 lbs where the Express is 6 1/2 lbs , isn't birch lighter thand walnut ?
 
There were differences in the police models with regard to springs etc. there may be some with regard to the Wingmaster.

[Dvivlamore]

In  a 12 gauge the feed latches, mag spring and ejector spring are  all exactly the same, police and tactical have a longer spring that's the only difference

[gunnut69]

I've an older wingmaster cop gun and only the magazine spring is different because the mags longer. The actions are pretty much all the same though dimensions change as models and manufacturing methods change. The 870 is a really good shotgun though I prefer the winchester m12.. It's what I grew up using..

[SHOOTALL]

gunnut69 / Dvivlamore, guess the specs that REMINGTON prints are wrong then. If you go to the parts list there are parts listed for POLICE models have been different . BTW some police models have short mag tubes .

[Dvivlamore]

only one with a shorter mag tube is the MCS models, that's only because you  can get a 10" barrel for it.

[Dave in WV]

Mannyrock, I would do like I've done to stainless Ruger 77 MKIIs. I remove all oils and lubes and work the action about 100 times. Then I spray the parts that cause friction with Rem Dry lube and work it in. Instead of removing metal I think letting the action work in and smooth out is better.
The express models are not Parkerized, they are sand blasted and blued and seem to rust easier. One correction for that is to wait for a hot summer day and coat the steel with CLP oil and set it out in the sun. Repeat until the oil quits soaking into the metal. My son did a few firearms like that and it really helped.

[SHOOTALL]

only one with a shorter mag tube is the MCS models, that's only because you  can get a 10" barrel for it.

well I don't know , we have two police supply stores here and they sell police trade in guns . Alot of guns marked POLICE MAGNUM are sold with short mag tubes . Alot of the used ones come from the state prisons others from police trade ins . Guess if the order is large enough you can order what you want.

[gunnut69]

The police shotgun is made in many special models or  variations. The basic gun stays pretty much the same. the magnum is one variation but in the 870 the difference is in the chamber length only. At one point there were some differences between the standard chamber guns and the magnums, they had different ejectors. That's been gone for years to help cut costs because a 3 inch ejector will also clear 2 3/4 inch shells just fine. Remington has made parts for the police guns that were different than usually sold to hunters, folding stocks forinstance but the gun remains the same.. also not that remington mag tubes are all the same length within gauge variations. I have never worked with a 10 inch barreled 870 and they would be illegal to own without federal licence. There are however magazine exte nsions available to extend the tubes capacity.. The 870 has even had a box magazine conversion made for it although I don't think Remington ever sold them..

[SHOOTALL]

only one with a shorter mag tube is the MCS models, that's only because you  can get a 10" barrel for it.

BTW , check out the Remington police shotgun info. , you will notice in the 870 line you can get -
870 max W/extended mag tube
870 standard police with short/standard  tube
870 modular with either length tube , several possible configerations and bbl lengths
870 police breacher system with short/standard  tube
870 synthetic with short /standard tube .
all can have extended tube added .
 
note these offerings are shown in the police section not the civilian section but are for sale at most of the gun shows I go to.

[Dvivlamore]

only one with a shorter mag tube is the MCS models, that's only because you  can get a 10" barrel for it.

well I don't know , we have two police supply stores here and they sell police trade in guns . Alot of guns marked POLICE MAGNUM are sold with short mag tubes . Alot of the used ones come from the state prisons others from police trade ins . Guess if the order is large enough you can order what you want.

Well I personally have built many of the mcs models I work in the repair center now for Remington, I know what's made and IO know all the specs, the mcs is ONLY sold to police, military and other Law enforcement agencies

[SHOOTALL]

The police shotgun is made in many special models or  variations. The basic gun stays pretty much the same. the magnum is one variation but in the 870 the difference is in the chamber length only. At one point there were some differences between the standard chamber guns and the magnums, they had different ejectors. That's been gone for years to help cut costs because a 3 inch ejector will also clear 2 3/4 inch shells just fine. Remington has made parts for the police guns that were different than usually sold to hunters, folding stocks forinstance but the gun remains the same.. also not that remington mag tubes are all the same length within gauge variations. I have never worked with a 10 inch barreled 870 and they would be illegal to own without federal licence. There are however magazine exte nsions available to extend the tubes capacity.. The 870 has even had a box magazine conversion made for it although I don't think Remington ever sold them..

I think if you look guns made for police / military have parts built for severe service where needed. I picked up a couple of the police trade ins before the police magnum was out. It was a wingmaster , both were in need of some parts . On one the hammer face looked like a chisle with a mushroom top . Several springs were worn so a buddy at the shop was going to order them for me , he ask if I wanted standard parts or police spec. parts which were supposed to give better service.
 
I would like to see the forearm on a gun supplied with a box mag , it should be a feat in engineering !

[SHOOTALL]

only one with a shorter mag tube is the MCS models, that's only because you  can get a 10" barrel for it.

well I don't know , we have two police supply stores here and they sell police trade in guns . Alot of guns marked POLICE MAGNUM are sold with short mag tubes . Alot of the used ones come from the state prisons others from police trade ins . Guess if the order is large enough you can order what you want.

Well I personally have built many of the mcs models I work in the repair center now for Remington, I know what's made and IO know all the specs, the mcs is ONLY sold to police, military and other Law enforcement agencies

visit some gun shows you will find the police guns next to the guys selling ammo for police use only. What happend is some salesman sells a department new hardware - guns ammo mags etc. They take all existing inventory in on trade . This inventory might include some weapons that were stored as back up weapons. Ammo is traded if cal. or type is changed . Then it hits the civilian market. I still use bright orange Glock police pratice mags from when new hicap mags were illegal for us to buy. Seems Glock took in all the pratice mags on trade so they could be sold to the public and alot of departments went along with it.
BTW if you work on so many you should know the shell follower in the mag tube for police guns were different    . Check back thru. the years you may find some good info. one what was aval.

[Dvivlamore]

even police followers have been plastic of at least 20 years, only time aluminum is when it was a special order and most of the time is when it went to the FBI. As you should know they were black first then gray now orange of easy identification of a empty magazine tube