Does Barrel length help determine Acurracy - your thoughts

[scootrd]

A close friend and I had a disagreement over whether long barrelled bolt action (24-26") hunting rifles are inheirantly more accurate over a shorter barrelled bolt action hunting rifle (18.5-22"). With him stubbornly coming down on the side of longer barrels are more accurate.

I disagreed , believing in a true apples to apples comparison (same off the rack rifle , hunting cartridge, bullet weight and powder utilized)  length of barrel plays a minimal role in accuracy and a short barrelled hunting rifle may even be inheirantly more accurate than a longer barrel . (slight loss of FPS in short barrel sure , but Loss of accuracy? I'm not so sure I am convinced).

The only way to prove his point I argued was select a hunting rifle with 24" barrel , fire some groups , then cut the barrel down a few inches and fire a few more groups. Has anyone done this ? What were your results with specific relationship to accuracy?

Would like to hear others thoughts ? 

[SHOOTALL]

For what it is worth my XP-100 with a 15 inch bbl was one of the most accurate guns I ever shot. Its a bolt gun but a handgun. In reality each gun is different. The longer the bullet is in the bbl the more effect the rifle has on it . It would seem that a short bbl would be more accurate but that is not always the case. Recoil can be managed by gun weight which a longer bbl can add. better recoil management better accuracy ? There are so many things that can make a gun accurate or not both of you could be right depending on gun in question.

[45-70.gov]

get 2  pieces  of pipe  or re-bar,,,,same diameter


only one piece 10 inches, the other 10 feet
now  show your friend  which  one is more rigid
explain the vibrations/barrel whip  when  fired


if he doesn't understand the point......he is an idiot  and  your wasting time talking to him


short barrels  are  more consistent/ smaller groups / more accurate
short barrels  loose velocity.... making range estimation more critical....less accurate

[Bart Solo]

I remember watching Boddington, or somebody like him, prove beyond doubt that the most "inherently accurate" firearm would be the firearm with the shortest practical barrel, but the reason for a long barrel is to increase velocity and, in the days before optical sights, to allow an appropriate sight radius for precision aiming.  His argument, which had to do with barrel flex and vibrations, was very persuasive. 

[KotaWood]

yes it does i have personally tested it with a mosin nagant, and a remington 514 22lr, i believe it is partially due to powder burn and how long it engages the rifling, both barrels were free floated (as to test the barrels accuracy itself and it alone) and shot from rest that was bolted onto a steel table, target was 100 yards for mosin 50 yards for 22lrs and what it comes down to is the longer barrels are more accurate, the child logic i heard 10 year old said well if the gun is 28 inches long and the other one is 16, the bullet in the 28 inch one is still gonna be guiding down the gun while the smaller one is already left the barrel and had time to go off course,        my view is similar the longer a bullet is spun the longer its going to keep spinning, laws of physics state that, newtons 3 laws of motion, wich also brings into account the force put behind the bullet for a longer amount of time

[scootrd]

yes it does i have personally tested it with a mosin nagant, and a remington 514 22lr, i believe it is partially due to powder burn and how long it engages the rifling, both barrels were free floated (as to test the barrels accuracy itself and it alone) and shot from rest that was bolted onto a steel table, target was 100 yards for mosin 50 yards for 22lrs and what it comes down to is the longer barrels are more accurate, the child logic i heard 10 year old said well if the gun is 28 inches long and the other one is 16, the bullet in the 28 inch one is still gonna be guiding down the gun while the smaller one is already left the barrel and had time to go off course,        my view is similar the longer a bullet is spun the longer its going to keep spinning, laws of physics state that, newtons 3 laws of motion, wich also brings into account the force put behind the bullet for a longer amount of time

Could you please re-state your position , I'm having a hard time understanding the supported evidence cited in response. Please expand. 

Is your above stated position Yes you believe a longer barrel provides greater accuracy ?

If so , I have yet to see any empirical evidence presented in above post to support the longer barrel is more accurate position, and so I still tend to fall into the camp of 45-70.gov

[Bart Solo]

yes it does i have personally tested it with a mosin nagant, and a remington 514 22lr, i believe it is partially due to powder burn and how long it engages the rifling, both barrels were free floated (as to test the barrels accuracy itself and it alone) and shot from rest that was bolted onto a steel table, target was 100 yards for mosin 50 yards for 22lrs and what it comes down to is the longer barrels are more accurate, the child logic i heard 10 year old said well if the gun is 28 inches long and the other one is 16, the bullet in the 28 inch one is still gonna be guiding down the gun while the smaller one is already left the barrel and had time to go off course,        my view is similar the longer a bullet is spun the longer its going to keep spinning, laws of physics state that, newtons 3 laws of motion, wich also brings into account the force put behind the bullet for a longer amount of time

To be valid any such test would have to involve a group of identical rifles shooting identical ammunition from the same fixed stand over a fixed course of fire.  The only variable would be barrel length.  Because of all the variables a statistically valid sample of each barrel length would be necessary.  A simple one to one test wouldn't be conclusive.  Certainly a single test involving totally different rifles, calibers, ammunition and distances wouldn't be proof of anything.
In addition there is a certain law of motion that "every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state unless an external force is applied to it."  A whipping barrel is a profound external force.  Once a bullet leaves the barrel the only external forces it will encounter are gravity and the occasional wind shear (gust).  Once a barrel has imparted spin there really isn't much more for the barrel to do except impart more velocity by allowing all of the powder to burn. 

[Lon371]

yes it does i have personally tested it with a mosin nagant, and a remington 514 22lr, i believe it is partially due to powder burn and how long it engages the rifling, both barrels were free floated (as to test the barrels accuracy itself and it alone) and shot from rest that was bolted onto a steel table, target was 100 yards for mosin 50 yards for 22lrs and what it comes down to is the longer barrels are more accurate, the child logic i heard 10 year old said well if the gun is 28 inches long and the other one is 16, the bullet in the 28 inch one is still gonna be guiding down the gun while the smaller one is already left the barrel and had time to go off course,        my view is similar the longer a bullet is spun the longer its going to keep spinning, laws of physics state that, newtons 3 laws of motion, wich also brings into account the force put behind the bullet for a longer amount of time

 I am not so sure your test was valid. If you are comparing a 7.62x54r to a .22 bullet. Not sure how it could be valid. 2 entirely different rounds. Different material, and length and weight.
 
 Now if you want to test the 2 guns for a series of shots in your rest setup, then chop them both shorter and retest. That would be an actual test. This way you could compare each gun and bullet to its self. Using 2 entirely different guns, calibers, bullets has to many varables.
 
 From my understanding. A longer barrel is not more accurate. Unless it was an iron sighted barrel. Meaning uses sights not optics. The encreased distance between the sights would be a benefit. But with optics, the only plus for the longer barrel is velocity.
 
Lonny

[Lon371]

yes it does i have personally tested it with a mosin nagant, and a remington 514 22lr, i believe it is partially due to powder burn and how long it engages the rifling, both barrels were free floated (as to test the barrels accuracy itself and it alone) and shot from rest that was bolted onto a steel table, target was 100 yards for mosin 50 yards for 22lrs and what it comes down to is the longer barrels are more accurate, the child logic i heard 10 year old said well if the gun is 28 inches long and the other one is 16, the bullet in the 28 inch one is still gonna be guiding down the gun while the smaller one is already left the barrel and had time to go off course,        my view is similar the longer a bullet is spun the longer its going to keep spinning, laws of physics state that, newtons 3 laws of motion, wich also brings into account the force put behind the bullet for a longer amount of time

To be valid any such test would have to involve a group of identical rifles shooting identical ammunition from the same fixed stand over a fixed course of fire.  The only variable would be barrel length.  Because of all the variables a statistically valid sample of each barrel length would be necessary.  A simple one to one test wouldn't be conclusive.  Certainly a single test involving totally different rifles, calibers, ammunition and distances wouldn't be proof of anything.
In addition there is a certain law of motion that "every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state unless an external force is applied to it."  A whipping barrel is a profound external force.  Once a bullet leaves the barrel the only external forces it will encounter are gravity and the occasional wind shear (gust).  Once a barrel has imparted spin there really isn't much more for the barrel to do except impart more velocity by allowing all of the powder to burn. 

Sorry for the repeat Bart. Think we were typing at the same time.
 
Lonny

[KotaWood]

guys i cut down and recrowned each barrel thats the story not comparing the gun to the other thats just stupid

[KotaWood]

both barrels were cited in via a sighting laser, for the scopes wich each had, i really wanted to test the theory because i love being right, and i had to guns given to me wich i wanted to modify to be shorter anyways so i conducted this experiment so to prove to my grampa a shorter gun was more accurate and i was wrong, but i believe in what i seen and done

[scootrd]

Was finally able to get some time to research . Just found a good SWAT article addressing .
Here is full article.

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

Here are some excerpts

Shorter barrels are actually often more accurate than their longer counterparts.  A rifle barrel is a cantilevered beam and as such they sag.  More sag results in more whip and vibration as the bullet travels down the bore.  Barrel sag induces longitudinal stress that can cause stringing of shots.  Using a shorter, heavier barrel minimizes reduces stress and accuracy-robbing barrel vibration.  A shorter barrel is stiffer and vibrates at a less.

During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down to 18 inches in one-inch increments.  Between 10 to 20 rounds were fired at each increment.  Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps).

The accuracy of the Tango 51 isn't hampered by the shorter barrel.  While at the range with the Tango 51 we were consistently getting sub-1/4 MOA accuracy at longer ranges?  Well, the shorter barrel doesn't hamper longer range accuracy either.Going to an 18-inch barrel doesn't adversely effect the accuracy of the rifle.  Tac Ops has achieved incredible accuracy with the shorter barrels.  The 18-inch barreled Tango 51 rifles will still shoot sub-1/4 MOA.  The performance is just as good with the 18-inch barrel as it is with the 20-inch barrel out to a distance of 600 yards.

So basically what 45-70.gov said and these tests support my initial position in the discussion I had with my friend. Shorter may be inherently more accurate or at least has minimal effect on accuracy. 

[Bart Solo]

By the way there is another reason for a long barrel that has nothing to with accuracy.  If you are shooting one of the big magnums a longer barrel is a lot more comfortable for you to shoot.  It is certainly a lot more comfortable for the spotter next to you.  Of course, most magnums actually shoot better with longer barrels because they have more distance to burn the extra powder. 

[scootrd]

It was interesting the article touched on your comment as well.

An 18- to 20-inch barrel may be fine for a caliber like the .308 Win., but what about calibers such as the .300 Winchester Magnum (7.62x66B)? ..........This leads to an obvious question -- will going to a shorter barrel for added maneuverability in the urban environment adversely affect long range performance of a rifle in this caliber? .............. To find the answers, Tac Ops took a 26-inch barreled .300 Win. Mag. and chopped the barrel down in one-inch increments as they previously did with the .308 Winchester.  Ten rounds of  Federal Match 190-grain BTHP Gold Medal were fired from each increment.  No velocity was lost from 26 inches to 22 inches.  Velocity loss started to occur only after they went below 22 inches..........As a result of their tests, Tac Ops decided not to go below 22 inches on their .300 Win. Mag. tactical precision rifle,  There isn't any loss of performance by going to the 22-inch barrel and this round.  The Alpha 66 still provides 1/4-MOA or better accuracy.......] For heavier bullets or hotter loads with slower burning powders, Rescigno recommends a 24- to 26-inch barrel.  The longer barrel length is necessary for complete powder combustion with these loads.

[tacklebury]

Depends on the sighting aparatus.  If you like iron sights, as I do, barrel length and thus sight radius does definitely play a large part in accuracy.   

[KotaWood]

Depends on the sighting aparatus.  If you like iron sights, as I do, barrel length and thus sight radius does definitely play a large part in accuracy. 

i agree with you on that, glass can break and crack in what i have put guns through, but iron sights never break

[KotaWood]

A close friend and I had a disagreement over whether long barrelled bolt action (24-26") hunting rifles are inheirantly more accurate over a shorter barrelled bolt action hunting rifle (18.5-22"). With him stubbornly coming down on the side of longer barrels are more accurate.

I disagreed , believing in a true apples to apples comparison (same off the rack rifle , hunting cartridge, bullet weight and powder utilized)  length of barrel plays a minimal role in accuracy and a short barrelled hunting rifle may even be inheirantly more accurate than a longer barrel . (slight loss of FPS in short barrel sure , but Loss of accuracy? I'm not so sure I am convinced).

The only way to prove his point I argued was select a hunting rifle with 24" barrel , fire some groups , then cut the barrel down a few inches and fire a few more groups. Has anyone done this ? What were your results with specific relationship to accuracy?

Would like to hear others thoughts ?

alright lets do a basic test evry1 who loves revolvers has one 4 to 6 inch and one snubby most the same brand, lets see if a 1.58-3 inch barrel is more accurate than a 6 inch and end this stupid conversation longer time engaged with rifling and powder burn will always make a firearm more accurate if u can shoot, thompson center for example a ten inch is accurate but the 22 inch will put it to shame a farther distances in wich the round doesnt have enough kinetic energy to stay moving (the bullet drops quicker on a shorter barrel)

[SHOOTALL]

I noted it earlier , the longer the bullet is in the bbl the more time the shooter has to mess up the shot . Its that simple if all else is the same. After the bullet leaves the bbl long or short if it strays its something other than the bbl . Yes the crown can but that's as it leaves not after 

[45-70.gov]

both barrels were cited in via a sighting laser, for the scopes wich each had, i really wanted to test the theory because i love being right, and i had to guns given to me wich i wanted to modify to be shorter anyways so i conducted this experiment so to prove to my grampa a shorter gun was more accurate and i was wrong, but i believe in what i seen and done

not  meaning to sound  smart  or question your gunsmithing


but  maybe they had a better crown  before cutting

[us920669]

Maybe 12 or 15 years ago there was an article in American Rifleman about a guy, I think in the Southwest, getting unbelievable groups out of a Contender at the better part of a mile.  I can't recall all the details but that put me in the short barrel camp for sure.

[scootrd]

An excerpt from Chuck Hawkes writings

Barrel length, accuracy and ballistics

It is worth mentioning that a longer barrel is not inherently more accurate than a short barrel. Intrinsic accuracy is a matter of quality, not length.  However, a longer barrel is generally better in terms of practical accuracy, because a longer and therefore heavier barrel (within reason) is easier to hold relatively steady from unsupported positions; thus it is easier to shoot a long barreled rifle accurately.


I Think barrel length has more to do with cartridge velocities and less to do with rifle accuracy although I can see his point regarding shooting from unsupported positions. But again this has more to do with the shooter and less to do with actual barrel lengths determining the true accuracy of a given bolt action hunting rifle. Everything I am reading has stated a shorter barrel of the same contour has the potential to be more accurate.

[KotaWood]

both barrels were cited in via a sighting laser, for the scopes wich each had, i really wanted to test the theory because i love being right, and i had to guns given to me wich i wanted to modify to be shorter anyways so i conducted this experiment so to prove to my grampa a shorter gun was more accurate and i was wrong, but i believe in what i seen and done

not  meaning to sound  smart  or question your gunsmithing


but  maybe they had a better crown  before cutting

i crowned it on the longer barrels as well and i do gunsmithing professionally

[KotaWood]

I noted it earlier , the longer the bullet is in the bbl the more time the shooter has to mess up the shot . Its that simple if all else is the same. After the bullet leaves the bbl long or short if it strays its something other than the bbl . Yes the crown can but that's as it leaves not after 

UHHHH! DUH! this thread is regarding the barrels accuracy and not the shooters ineptitude to control the firearm and hold on target, i don't know about you but every gun owner i see shooting a gun bigger than him shouldn't use it, would you give a 108 pound 23 year old female a 45-120? Most would say no, not if i cared about her,why? because she can not properly handle the recoil and if she can she still will lose target on muzzle flip 9 times out of 10

[Singleshotsam]

Accuracy is not strictly determined by barrel length alone, but rather how consistant the gun is able to reproduce the same actions repeatedly.  If you action has been trued, The trigger is set to prevent pulling the gun off target when pulled.  The stock is bedded properly, the headspace has been set correctly, the barrel is of high quality you have quality sights and the ammo is loaded in a precise and consistant manner, then the gun will be accurate regardless of barrel length.

A short barrel is more rigid yes.  A long better will have more velocity at greater distance will improves accuracy also.  But the bottom line is consistency and quality.

[scootrd]

It appears its may be less about a barrels length and more about a barrels contour that helps determine a barrels accuracy.

http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html#24642

excerpt -

 As a general rule, the answer is yes. A shorter barrel will be stiffer, pound for pound, since you can run a thicker contour (diameter) with the same weight. As you increase diameter, barrel rigidity rises to the 4th power of the increase. But if you lengthen a barrel, stiffness declines in proportion to the cube of the length. So a barrel that is just a few inches longer and a bit thinner can be half as rigid as a 20"

Common sense tells us that it is easier to make a shorter piece of steel perfectly straight, and with less bore length to drill, there is less chance of a flaw in a shorter barrel. Benchrest competition proves that short barrels, in the 20-22" range, give maximum short-range accuracy in 6mm, assuming you use a scope.

For a gun with iron sights, longer barrels offer increased sight radius which helps the shooter aim more precisely. (but again this last sentence refers more to the shooter than actual barrel accuracy.)
______________________________________

From all I have read thus far , I believe in my discussion with my friend I was on solid footing - Shorter barrels on Bolt action hunting rifles are inherently more accurate. Longer barrels may be perceived as such by their gun owner under certain sitiuations ( ie: open sights) but all things being equal shorter barrels are inherently the more accurate barrel.

[Singleshotsam]

From all I have read thus far , I believe in my discussion with my friend I was on solid footing - Shooter barrels on Bolt action hunting rifles are inherently more accurate. Longer barrels may be perceived as such by their gun owner under certain sitiuations ( ie: open sights) but all things being equal shorter barrels are inherently the more accurate barrel.

Given all things considered most of the time that's true.  But, on quality built guns, where each piece has been fitted in the most precise manner, a 20" bbl and a 26" bbl will both be able to shoot in the .2's.  Barrel contour really only affects how fast the heat will affect your accuracy. 

Example.  My best friend has a 20" heavy contour Remington 700 .308.  The gun has been worked over and is very high quality.  It shoots in the .2's

He also has a Remington 700 26" medium contour .280 AI. It has also been worked over.  It also shoots in the .2's.  The difference is that the heat affects the .280's light profiles accuracy faster than the heavy .308's barrel.  If you group each shot cold bore then they shoot equally accurate.
 
So these arguements are pretty invalid anymore.  As long as the gun has the quality behind it, where everything is as consistant as possible every shot, then accuracy will be achieved.  Shooting is a science.  In science consistancy is key.

[SHOOTALL]

If long bbls are best why are rail guns used in benchrest matches mated with short bbls ?

[Singleshotsam]

You have to look at the application in such instances... Your not going to want to shoot a 1000 yard match with a 20" barrel.  Most 1000 yard rail gun bbl's don't go shorter than 26"

[SHOOTALL]

26 is a short bbl in 1000 yard comp for rail guns where the norm is 32    point is some are starting to go shorter , wonder why ? accuracy maybe ?
 
I have seen shorter bbls on some , most likely not 1000 yard guns.

[Singleshotsam]

point is some are starting to go shorter , wonder why ? accuracy maybe ?

I don't think they're going to get very much shorter than 26 for 1000 yard competition.  At some point your going to have to keep the 1000 yard barrels longer to achieve a good velocity to keep the bullets from tumbling and keyholing.