Cost Effective Survival Rifle?

[flmason]

Lots to be said for a .22 single shot or otherwise. And 10,000 rounds of ammunition is enough to provide meat for three meals a day for ten years. Granted that meat might be tweety bird soup, but it still beats starvation. Having a few bricks of the quiet Colibri would provide stealth hunting capabilities.
 
A .22 rifle and a .38/9mm or larger handgun for defense sounds like a good enough combo.

Now who will tote 20 bricks of 22 ammo ? How long will heel based bullets last in the pack ? zip lock bags only last so long. If the idea is to store at home then any round will work.

Are .22's really prone to coming unsealed? Have to admit, I've always carried them in the box. Or the carton, as in days gone by I used the cheap milk cartons of Remington golds. Have bought the type in plastic carriers as well. Presently picked up some Winchester Wildcats, because they were inexpensive, with traditional specs, good solid wood box to boot. Had picked out a revolver over in Wisconsin, only to find out I have to get an Iowa FFL to transfer the thing!

Have pretty much settled on the combination of .22, .44, and 20 gauge as overall set with the obvious hole being there's no good long range rifle, but do have a Mosin sitting here. The .22 and .44 are tied up in this Wisconsin/Iowa thing, so I may just ask for a refund and pick up a .22 rifle of some sort and let go of the idea of a defensive/bear sidearm.

On the bright side, looks like I might have a contract coming, so perhaps I'll be avoiding the perceived need, in the nick of time to be sure. But still may want to find a way to transfer the two revolvers. (Decided to blow the money and be done with it.) But if the contract comes through, will be moving to Ca. so more aggravations, may end up letting the revolvers go back.

So ultimately I decided on .22 and .44 revolvers, 20 gauge single shot, and the Mosin. Would've preferred 12 gauge and a K98 or any good 30-06, but those are out of budget. And really, too much to carry. I figure the two revolvers and the light shotgun are ultimately carryable. Say a 1000 .22, box of .44, box of 20 gauge #6, and a box of Winchester Super-X Slugs. With the .22 being the main meat getter. The other two, really... luxuries.

Been more of a handgun guy my whole life, so I'm comfortable using them within thier limits.

Not at all sure I made the correct decisions, but that's how I went.

Thoughts?

[flmason]

I agree on stacking the deck in my favor.  That's why I have a couple of inexpensive .22LR rifles and a single 12,  all with ammo, stashed in obscure locations "just in case", along with some better things around the house.  I like to think of it as covering the bets. 
 
If you can afford it, go for it.  If not, go for the compromise that best fits your individual situation, location, and potential threats.  In my area, a .22 will put meat on the table when anything else would be serious overkill.  That's why I have .22s as backup.  Everything else is primarily for self-defense.

Yeah, I can see going with .22, 12 ga. and defensive handgun, to be sure. Being comfortable with handguns, even a .22 pistol of some sort would work for me. Vanity says I want a .22 bolt gun with great scope, but that's all frangible stuff.

So, in principle I think we've nailed it, right? .22 to general pot filler. 12 or 20 ga. with some slugs and shot for bird or heavy game, defensive handgun for people/bear problems and possibly large game if you get a hunting magnum caliber.

Of course that's off the original topic of "cost effective survival rifle". Which seems we there isn't really such a thing? .22 is too light for heavy tasks. Larger calibers are overkill for light tasks. Combos are expensive.

So guess one has to decide what one wants to give up.

My best guess is that one should go with the .22 and basically try to avoid confrontations where serious stopping power is required?

[jlwilliams]

....and basically try to avoid confrontations ...

  That's generally a good plan.

[Lost Farmboy]

  Flmason,


Avoiding confrontations should be your number 1 goal no matter what you are carrying.


Don't under estimate that mosin. A lot of the guys I work with are getting them. They are cheap. Ammo is cheap. They are very accurate. I have bad eyes and am pretty much dependent on scopes. The mosin is about the only rifle I tried that I can see a good sight picture and the target at the same time.


I see you are looking in to a lee loader or hand press. I saw an old guy that had a 7-30 waters contender hand gun, set of dies and a hand press. He had been hunting deer with it for decades and had only one box of shells. The box was old. He just reloaded every time he shot a few


There is an article on the internet about a guy the uses his 30-06 for everything. He has different load for rabbits, turkeys and large game. I think the same could be done with the mosin. I think a mosin, a lee loader and a bullet mold could very well be the cost effective survival rifle.


I have been doing a little research on the mosins, because so many guys I work with are getting them. They are commonly used in Afghanistan. I thought why would a guy in a war want a mosin when he could have an AK47 with 30 round clips? Accurate shooting at long ranges.

[Pat/Rick]

I don't feel handi capped at all with my mosins. I have alot of range time with them to include recharging with stripper clips, and successful hunting trips with them. Ditto on the sight picture for older eyes. Any nations military bolt action will see you through tough times, 03-A3's, .303's, mausers, etc. One of my mosins turned out to be less than desireable, at the prices for most of them, it got stripped down to parts and they are now a survival kit for mosins. Extra springs and pins etc.

[flmason]

@Lost FarmBoy - Oh yeah, I don't underestimate the Mosin in the least. It's clearly a good rifle. The safety is the big bugaboo in my mind. Would honestly prefer a K98 or an '03 Springfield, or my fave from my past, a good M1 Garand.

This article here by C.E. Harris gives some interesting info on loading for various purposes using cast bullets in Milsurp rifles. Somehow it makes me happy to see 2400 can be used for everything, LOL!

http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf

Basically, if I'm not reloading for it, I kinda feel like I'm just goofing off, LOL!


In all reality, for the things that I started this thread for, a Mosin is *way* over kill. Cost of ammo, reloading etc. aren't all that practical in a "live out of the car or on foot" scenario that I was anticipating. Of course niether is a 12 or 20 ga. etc.

I guess the one practical game gatherer within it's limits really does come down to the .22. At $0.04 a round, it's a pretty compelling argument. Back it with a defensive pistol and I guess that's really the cheapest way to be covered.

Tripped over a nice 1938 Ivhevsk while I was trying to come to grips with what to do, bought it because the price was so low and well, just happen to like military designs. Was probably a frivolous mistake given my real intent. But can't say I don't like it.

Have a bud over in Colorado. Was thinking next year's season, if things get better, would be the ideal rifle to take over there for the deer and elk seasons. Rugged, good ballistics, etc. What's not to like? Sure it's not top of heap, but still a heck of a rifle, and hands down the price leader. Eventually will have to do the ring safety mod in some fashion, but beyond that and it not being .30-06, no complaints. The one I got doesn't even really need to have the wood re-done. 100% servicable right out of the box.

[myronman3]

my grandpa had 22 ammo in the 80's that he bought in the 40's; and it worked just fine. 
 
is the 22 my first choice in a fight? no.  but this thread isnt called "what is your first choice for a gun in a fight"....it is called "cost effective survival rifle". 
  in that context, a 22lr wins.  nothing else can even come close to it. 

[SHOOTALL]

I still have some my uncles and grand father had that works also but it has never been in a pack carried in the rain and heat. I have some not so old that was in my truck tool box for a couple mos that are duds.
If going 22 something rim fire at least go 22 mag and get a better bullet and case to bullet seal.

[myronman3]

a 22 mag is not cost effective.  a 223 is cheaper than a 22 mag.   
 

[SHOOTALL]

In cost not weight.
But I would opt for the 223

[myronman3]

again...the title of the thread isnt "the most weight effective survivial rifle"....lol.   

[SHOOTALL]

Weight is a cost if you carry it far 

[reliquary]

I have a milk-carton-style box of Federals that began to go bad after only 14 years or so.  They've been stored in a metal locker in my garage.  By that I mean about 1 out of 3 or 4 will snap.  Sometimes the round will catch if I rotate it in the chamber to where a new strike can be made.  I only use them for plinking in an old 9-shot revolver. 
 
I have one brick that I just opened a year or so ago that I keep in a tupperware shoebox-sized container with a container of (fresh) cat-litter for moisture absorption.  The ones I have in longterm storage are also double-sealed with absorbers, plus the lids are caulked.
 
A cardboard box of 50 in a toolbox or tacklebox will go bad...a few start snapping... in a year or so, here in high humidity.

[Drilling Man]

a 22 mag is not cost effective.  a 223 is cheaper than a 22 mag.

  Really?  Where can i buy 50 rounds of NEW .223's for $8.50?  That's what 22WMR cost here...
 
  Yes, there are more expensive WMR's sold, but you don't have to buy the most expensive rounds...
 
  DM

[myronman3]

most times 22 mag ammo and 223 ammo is pretty much the same price in the gunshops i have been in....
a box of 22 mags i have never seen for less than $12 and change...and there is usually some kind of 223 ammo there that you can get two boxes for about the same price, perhaps a buck or so more.  and when you stop to figure i reload 223 ammo...it is a helluva lot cheaper than 22 mag ammo. 

[SHOOTALL]

I think the idea of a survival rifle is to survive any situation that may present itself. One case may be when the owner has to move out and relocate on foot. The ablity to reload at that point is not as attractive ( can be done on a limited basis) as placing 500 rounds of 22 mag ammo in your pack . A good 223 bolt gun with 22 mag adapters would be a good comprise although my choice would be a 308 with 30 carbine adapters as both 308 and 30 carbine ammo can be had water proof.

[myronman3]

i have seen all kinds of tests done, and a 22lr will penetrate clean through a car...through one door and out the other.  and i saw that done to an old el camino.   i still say alot of you are being foolish.   
  pound for pound, dollar for dollar, the 22lr can not be beat. 

[BUGEYE]

i have seen all kinds of tests done, and a 22lr will penetrate clean through a car...through one door and out the other.  and i saw that done to an old el camino.   i still say alot of you are being foolish.   
  pound for pound, dollar for dollar, the 22lr can not be beat.

I totally agree.  plus 22 ammo can be waterproofed with that stuff you use to waterproof primers.

[SHOOTALL]

If I was being attacked I doubt a 22 LR would be my choice for defence. A 22 LR has a heel type bullet and it can move around , all the sealant in the world won't help if it moves after the seal dries.

[jlwilliams]

  22 is good.  You can kill lots of eatables with a 22.  What 22lr lacks in 'defensive attributes' it could make up for by being what you had when you needed something.  If you need a gun and what you have is a 22, you'll be happy to have that.
 
  That said, I'd like to talk about the water proofing issue.  I think that would be more of a problem if all the ammo you had was all the ammo you'd ever get.  Like an 'end of the world' type scenario.  Then the 22lr going bad might be an issue.  If you are (like the OP) considering a survival gun to use right now, then it's not such a big deal.  Lets say you buy a box or two, maybe  a brick of ammo.  You put it into an empty peanut butter jar with a screw top and take out a dozen or whatever you want to put in your pocket at one time.  Leave the PB jar stashed in the vehicle or wherever you are living.  If you only buy a box or two you will use it up before it goes bad.  Resuply is a possability.  If what you needed most in life was a handfull of 22 ammo, you could likely figure out a way to raise the $5 or less that you pay for a box (it's been a while since I bought one box of 22, I don't know what they charge for a box of 50 these days.)  Really, if you are living on the edge financially you aren't buying 10,000 rounds of ammo.  You are buying a handfull.  22 puts more rounds into your hand than anything else. 

[bilmac]

A 22 wouldn't be what you need if a griz charges, but how many of us have to worry about grizzlies?  As for two legged predators, the quick multi shot capability offered by a rimfire auto and a shooter who is familiar with his gun would be pretty effective.

[flmason]

A 22 wouldn't be what you need if a griz charges, but how many of us have to worry about grizzlies?  As for two legged predators, the quick multi shot capability offered by a rimfire auto and a shooter who is familiar with his gun would be pretty effective.

Have to admit, I go back and forth on this.

If I have to move into my car (which looks like I may not, may have a contract coming up here shortly) I know I'd head west and south, try to get to the other side of the Rockies on the west coast. I could see where there may be some bears where I'd think of going. At my age (49) and shape I probably couldn't do city style homeless. So that leaves the woods. So's that means bears.

But yes, given reliable ammo/feeding, I can see the logic in say a 10/22 or Model 60. Very much so. Actually I had a Rossi 62 pump as a kid. First rifle I bought with my own money... of course Dad signed for it... very much miss that gun. Would love to eventually get a real Winchester 62. But it broke down for packing, was deadly accurate, fast, and ammo insensitive.

Never have figured out why pump action rifles are in such the minorty. Only centerfire one I can think of is the Remington 760.

Seems the pump action gives both rate of fire and ammo insensitivity. Least that's how it looks to me.  Clearly the shotgun folks get this.

So I keep thinking .22 plus something for threats. Say .357 or .44.

[Victor3]

At my age (49) and shape I probably couldn't do city style homeless. So that leaves the woods. So's that means bears.

 You're looking at the situation bass-akwards, friend...

[SHOOTALL]

A peanut butter jar ? and how does that protect from heat and cold ? The temp changes is what allows passage of air often with moisture to get in. The air in the jar could have enough moisture in it.
As for resupply , well what you have on hand is what you have at that moment if it does not work resupply might not be an option.

[reliquary]

Use some kind of reasonably airtight container...Tupperware makes several that lend themselves to ammo storage (even loose rounds) instead of a screwtop jar.  Then add another container, even a cloth bag or small snaplid with holes punched in the lid, of absorbent...clean cat-litter is good and cheap...to the container with the rounds. 
 
You're not going to overload the absorbent with humidity by just opening the ammo container (momentarily) to get out some rounds. 
 
Of course, a screwtop jar with sealing lid and band is good, too, but glass jars are breakable.  And the homemade absorbent container is a little awkward to use with jars.
 
Pump centerfires are sometimes lacking in reliability with extraction of swollen rounds.  Pump .22s (and bolt-actions) are good because they will digest shorts, longs, shot rounds.  Semi-auto .22s are good for quick followup shots.  Don't overlook the Mossberg 702 Plinkster...costs less than half what a 10-22 does.  I have one on the wall and one in storage; the one I use is great except for the loooong trigger pull.
 
 

[flmason]

At my age (49) and shape I probably couldn't do city style homeless. So that leaves the woods. So's that means bears.

 You're looking at the situation bass-akwards, friend...

Entirely possible, this is new territory for me. Enlighten me.

[Victor3]

 In a nutshell, without being in exeptional 49 year old shape and already used to and equipped for living in the woods, you're not likely to last a year. Bears will be the least of your problems.
 
 On the other hand, older homeless folks in cities live off of food, clothing, shelter, medical, etc. handouts provided by the govt and religious orgs for decades. Never heard of one getting eaten by a bear either.

[jlwilliams]

  Absolutely true.  If I were homeless, I'd go for a small to midsized city and take all the help that's available.  Take the help when you are in trouble.  When you are back on your feet you can go back and volunteer time or give a few bucks to help out at the kitchens or food pantries.
 
  I used to work around the corner from a shelter/soup kitchen in a small city (Westerly, RI).  My mother volunteers at that same kitchen so I got to hear a bit about the inner workings of the operation.  There is a lot of food help for homeless people.  There isn't always enough shelter available for everybody and women and children get priority.  They also kick people out who are drunk or otherwise intoxicated.  The kitchen was opened to all, not just those enrolled in their shelter.  If you are in need, there are people and groups there to offer help.
 
 
  We had a guy in the shop who was in a bind.  He worked and got paid, but his divorce wage garnishment didn't leave him much.  He used to go to a place called The Jonnycake Center (A RI based food for the needy operation).  They'd give him a big load of food every week which made a big difference for him and his kids who he had shared custody of.  He was employed and owned his home; he was still eligable for help because he was in need and wasn't too proud to ask.  Good thing because he did need the help.  Again, if you are in a jam, there is plenty of food assistance available.
 
  In big cities there is way more pressure on these systems and you may be shut out.  Small to medium cities you can get some help and be walking distance to some out of town patches of woods where you can and do find homeless camps.  I sometimes hike an unused railroad track where I'll occasionally find a campsight. 
 
  On the other hand, they find bodies in Yellowstone and all the other big forests and parks every year.  Go out 'in the woods', real woods, and there is no place to get food other than to catch it.  A couple days without and you may be too weak to hunt.  Get wet and maybe hypothermia takes you at night.  Twist your ankle in the dark and die of exposure before dawn. It's just reality.  You find yourself homeless, go to where there is food, and that means getting to where there are people.  Then your big worry is shelter.  Defense isn't even that big a problem.  If you don't have anything you won't be a target for theft.  Women are often raped but that isn't likely for a 49 year old man.  Random acts of violence happen randomly, homeless or wealthy is no factor.  Like I said before.  Get a van, park the van at Walmart over night (or at a 3rd shift grocery store job) then you have shelter and a place to put what things you have.  Drive out of town to hunt and fish when you can.
 
  This country is full of food.  We throw tons away and have an epidemic of obeisity.  Food's the easy part.
 
  Don't go Grizzly Adams.  That's how people die in the woods.

[blind ear]

flmason
 
All that is good advice. Food in the wild isn't like a cattle rance. Natural cover supports low numbers of animals except in the plains heard situation in which you must follow the animals.
 
 All hunter gathering requires lots of gathering which means mobility and others for support, more eyes and backs. You have to know what wild plants are eadible. In winter you must have alreary gathered and stored most plants. Indians gathered lots of grass seeds and tree nuts and then had to process them. Most of them taste pretty flat when ready to eat.
 
The bear has a much better nose than you. The bear is at home. Will you eat the bear or will the bear eat you?
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15823272
 
Go to a medium size town. ear

[flmason]

Just checking in with everyone that was kind enough to post. Getting ready to pull the plug on the PC and pack it up.

Looks like I've landed some work and will be moving back to the west coast if all goes well. But it's a contract and could be dropped even before I start, so not out of the woods yet, so to speak.

Ultimately did spring for some guns to cover just about all scenarios save for fighting with people. Have oiled them down and packed them with some ammo in case I end up in the situation I seem to be narrowly avoiding. In retrospect just a Rossi Trifecta and a defensive sidearm probably would've covered everything. (Couldn't find one locally at the moment though, would've preferred to look it over rather than order one, was feeling a real time crunch, so made some less than optimal choices for sure.)

Ended up with a .22 revolver, .44 revolver, 20 gauge single shot and a 7.62x54r, with the 7.62 really being considered the poorest decision, but was cheap. Call it an impulse. The thinking was that the .22 covers small game, .44 covers bears, people, large game, 20 ga. covers any size game and wingshooting, but no firepower.

If I had to pick up and walk, I'd probably leave the 7.62 behind. The rest are packable. In a serious pinch, it'd come down to the revolvers. Easiest to carry, covers the most range of uses, hidable in a back pack if in town.

Absolute grab and run? Would probably take the .22. Can carry the most ammo at the same time.

Hopefully those choices respect everyone's thinking who offered advice.

Can definitely see the wisdom of *not* going "Grizzly Adams", but given the choice of Skid Row LA vrs. the Woods, I might choose the Woods, at least until I was starving or freezing, LOL! Mid sized town, definitely makes some sense, though finding work might be an issue in smaller markets.

To be honest, until this recession, I always held out working in Las Vegas as my fall back. Had dealt 21 as a survival job there at one time. But geez, unemployment there is at something like 16%.

So hopefully things will start turning around at this point. (Famous last words, LOL!)

By all means, let's not consider the thread closed. Would still be interested in anyone's thoughts, as they say, "It ain't over 'till it's over".