Cost Effective Survival Rifle?

[flmason]

A couple of weeks ago I picked up a Handi Survivor 45 / 410 and am pretty impressed.  I have a soft military style case for it. For about a total of 15 lbs have a nice supply of ammo, reloading components and equipment (Lee Loaders for 45 and 410).  Currently carrying a little Unique and 2400, but given time I am going to work up a load with Alliant's 410 so I can carry one powder for the 45 and the 410.  I know 2400 probably would do ok in the 45 Colt but haven't worked on that either.
 
This case also includes a Lee mold for 230 grain 45 and their little ladel as well.  200 Large Pistol Primers and 100 Shotgun primers (The Remington 410's that I got on clearance).
 
Anyway, its my new truck gun.  I don't have a problem with 410.  I have hunted with that gauge since I was 10 and have had little problem taking rabbit and upland game and sane distance.
 
Oh, I got this at the gunshow by selling a Makarov to one dealer for the asking price of the Handi from another.

Interesting choice. Am dieing to get back into handloading. Off topic, but am definitely curious how one would take mold blanks and make a good cavity for a personal design.

[flmason]

Yes, the issue of how to stay clean looking, basic hygiene etc. has crossed my mind, whether I end up in a urban/suburban situation or actually "take to the hills", no doubt about that.

Also the issue of LEO's etc. has crossed my mind. In my quick survey there seems to be nowhere in the lower 48 that covers the following points that you wouldn't get run out of eventually:

1) Clean potable water
2) Survivable Winter
3) Enough to Eat
4) Not so hot you'll evaporate.

For example, Angeles National Forest hits most of the things you'd need to survive... but there pot growers and rangers out there. Not to mention fires.

Regions more notherly, well think of the Donner Party.

In any event, coming up with 1-2 lbs. of food a day, could be difficult in the wrong environment.

Agreed, it one "hits the hills" trapping is probably a key skill. Actually any foraging technique that doesn't burn ammo. Bunny stick, snares and traps, bow, etc.

I can see why so many homeless folks ultimately opt for the city route. Probably easier to forage in LA, if the other homeless folks don't kill you. But being an older guy and not particularly bid and "badass", I'd actually rather take my chances in the woods than say Skid Row, Los Angeles.

That said, apart from some minor hunting skills. but lots of firearms experience, I'm not truly equiped with the skills to do it. If it goes that way, it'll be rough, if not short. Perhaps the only shot I'll be taking is on myself, LOL!

At present, tentative plan on, "have to move into the car day" is to basically load up with whatever possessions. (My life got paired downed to just what fits in the car years ago as I was trying to keep the career going and just wanted/needed to only have what fit in the car. Had hoped to buy a home again someday, couldn't see having a lot of stuff to move everytime I had a new contract 3 states away.) Pick a gun or two to toss in the car. Head for a warm clime. Perhaps SoCal to try and survive winter. Pawn what's left apart from survival needs. From there, can't really say. Strikes me as tough to engineer a re-entry into "normal" society once one gets that far down.

Hopefully something will turn in the near term and I'll get a reprieve. If not, guess I'm... well... screwed... as they say.

 flmason,
 
 A few points if I may (in no particular order), related to where I've highlighted above...
 
 Until I was ~14 years old I spent most every weekend year 'round camping/shooting/hunting with my Dad in the Angeles and Los Padres National Forests and the Mojave Desert. The mountains here in SoCal are no less cold in Winter than anywhere else. Most of the dirt roads that were open when I was a kid have now been closed by the Forest Service to reduce the likelyhood of people starting forest fires. Also, you need to either get a permit from the Rangers to have a fire (or even to use a gas stove) if you want to cook outside of an established campground. You'll need to buy and display what the Forest Service calls an "Adventure Pass" ($35/year IIRC) to park off of the highway. Can't hunt with lead bullets because both Angeles & Los Padres are in the "Condor Zone." I'd starve trying to snare, bow hunt or otherwise kill animals without a gun there. Not enough game to be had most areas that are easy to get to. Nowadays where Dad and I used to frequent, if we see a Ranger he usually makes contact to make sure we're doing everything legal. Never used to be that way.
 
 My Dad and I were friendly with a hermit who lived near where we camped sometimes. Boy did he have some stories. Mostly unpleasant ones. This guy was a young, tough SOB and even he, experienced as he was at living in harsh conditions, eventually took a job as a caretaker on one of the local ranches to have reliable heat, enough to eat and a truck to drive into town.
 
 In other words, I don't recommend making a go of it in our local mountains. In Winter, without a 4WD, a ton of gear and a lot of experience you won't last long. Even with those things it would suck big time.
 
 On the other hand, some places in SoCal are great for folks living out of a vehicle to spend the Winter. There are nice campgrounds all over the place, even within the cities. There's one right on the beach near me a mile South of LAX. Google up what's available; you'd be surprised.
 
 Santa Monica has a bunch of homeless shelters, missions, YMCA facilities where folks are fed, clothed and provided showers, etc. No need to go to a craphole like downtown LA to find such services. Don't think I could starve (or freeze) here on the coast If I tried. Most every Church has some kind of a food program. Guy who ended up running the one at my old Church originally wandered into it as a homeless drunk.
 
 I hope and will pray that things turn around for you quickly.

Good points to be sure. I'll definitely keep Santa Montica in mind if it gets down to it. :-)

No doubt Ca. is a conumdrum... mothership of liberalism... most regulated state in the union!

Spent 4 years in OC. Definitely noticed the snow on the mountains out back. SoCal is definitely a unique place, with or without people.

[teamnelson]

I can appreciate your situation; praying for some silver lining for you flmason!


Cost effective survival rifle?


I am not a fan of the shotgun as your one gun, or even one long gun coupled with a handgun. Its my 3rd gun, and disposable. Now I have had chamber adapters for 20 and 12 gauge in 38/357 and 44, because I had toyed with the idea of a shotgun as my one gun. I was thoroughly disappointed with using chamber adapters. Even using a 3" adapter, the pistol bullet gets less than 2" of rifling before it free bores the barrel. Accuracy was not as good as even my 2" snubbie pistol, so it does not give you accurate use of pistol rounds, which leaves it for SD/HD use only, and why the heck wouldn't you use a nice shotshell for that? I also rejected the shotgun as my primary because of weight of ammo, and performance. With the potential of every round fired never being replaced, instead of firing 9 357 balls at the same time to hit one target, I'd rather fire them one at a time in the hope that I might be able to use the left over for a different target.


I also hold dearly to a truth thats a cross between Murphy's Law and Occam's Razor - whatever can go wrong will go wrong, especially the more complexity involved. The simple solution is always the most resistant to Murphy. So I prefer actions for survival with the fewest number of moving parts ... single shot breech loading rifles are about as simple as you can get. For a time there I thought I had the ideal survival rifle set up; Contender Carbine .223 Rem with 16.25" barrel, peep sight, with chamber adapters for .22 WMR and .22 LR. Easy carry, good versatility of ammo, breaks down really small for stowing in the pack. The problem turned out to be the chamber adapters; one 22lr got flattened by the USPS envelope processor just enough to make it worthless, and it was the thickest of the 2. The other chipped around the rim of the casing which made it also worthless. But until it chipped, it fired fine, but the cases ballooned in the adapter so extraction required using a metal rod to tap it out. I'm swore off of chamber adapters now, and without those, the 223 is less interesting to me.


All that to say, were I heading towards homeless, a singleshot takedown rifle would be my preference, most likely in 38/357 or 44. I'd keep it stowed in my pack while in civilization and keep a knife handy (or wicked sharp screw driver as one of my homeless buddys taught me to make). But when afield, keep the ammo sleeve full of a mix of light 38 to hot 357, and some shotshells, with a good JSP in the chamber. A 22 is awesome, but a sling shot and some practice will fill in the bottom end of hunting up until your 38 kicks in.

[bilmac]

I agree whole heartedly with the Nelson team. Are you really going to use a 12 ga shell to harvest a sitting rabbit? How many 12ga shells are you going to haul around. You could use a 410 but 410 bullets cost more than the12s. Plus there is the range limitation, beyond 40 yards and you're out of luck. But there is also a range that is too close with a shotgun. I would say anything inside 12 or 15 yards and you aren't going to be eating much of what you kill.

A 357 handi rifle would be a good choice if you're concerned mostly about feeding yourself. If self defense were much of a concern, I think a reliable 22 semi would be preferable to a single shot. Sure you get a good hit with a 357, and the fight is over, but what if you are confronted with two assailants, animals like to run in packs. What if you think a warning shot would cause your assailants to turn tail? A lot of these animals are cowards too.

I defended myself from a charging bull years ago with a 10/22. I started shooting at his forehead when he was about 15 yards away, and he fell almost at my feet. I spent 6 or 8 shots as he came at me before he went down, he may have been dead after the first shot, but that's how fast you can place accurate shots with a 22 rimfire auto at close range.

[Hodr]

This is my third post on this topic so I will make it my last;
TeamNelson,  I flat forgot to include a slingshot, This is a little strange as I make one off custom flips, I wish I had the money, facilities and time that Jorg seems to have, he may be slingshot crazy but it beats collecting art for fun
Lastly you need a spool of flexible braided wire and some snips.  I know capitol letters are considered shouting, LEARN TO SET A SNARE.  Snares are silent, easily hidden, low cost, easy to set, easy to bait and work anywhere there is wildlife.  Yes they may be illeagal but if the choice is leagally starving to death, choosing between medication, food, and shelter a jail will provide all of that if you get caught.  All over Ireland and Scotland people living in the country assist thier sustanance with snares and flips (slingshots).  In civilised countries this is called poaching, in third world it is called survival.
 
Hodr
 
Come to think of it in thirld world areas dog and cat are mainstay items, look for some recipes
 

[teamnelson]

A flip and some snares lasts a really long time, packs easy and can be made in the field. Takes skill, but frees up weight in the pack for other valuable stuff. Also means you don't necessarily have to have a 22 if you prefer something else.

[charles p]

Hard to imagine "cost effective" and "survival" in the same title.  You want one foot in the grave?

[flmason]

@TeamNelson - Yes, no doubt, a shotgun may have been OK as primary when you had a conestoga wagon to haul things in. Therein lies the rub. A .22 of some sort makes sense for game gathering and ability to carry lots of ammo, on the cheap. But it's debatable for anything agressive that you need to stop *now*.

I guess one has to decide which tradeoffs one can best deal with.

@bilmac - Yes, I agree. When I do the math on ammo costs for a shotgun, it's doesn't work out. But it does have the ability to provide some load for almost any size game. So you gain flexibility throught the ammo selection, but it costs.

@CharlesP - LOL! You must be an engineer. Seriously though, yes there's probably  a quality line to not drop below if possible.

[blind ear]

Hard to imagine "cost effective" and "survival" in the same title.  You want one foot in the grave?

lol, - - - - - - but seriously now. 

[jlwilliams]

  This thread came to mind while talking to a friend I hadn't seen in a while.  He told me that he had scored an older H&R 30-30 Topper for $50 at a yard sale.  That's 'cost effective' for a proven freezer filler.
 
  I agree with Team Nelson about the simplicity of singles.  I do like a lever gun, though.  They are fairly simple and rugged.  As repeaters go, they have "time tested" covered beter than most.  If I could really take my pick of any, a lever action takedown rifle may be a cream of the crop for transportable, reliable firepower.  Takedowns being a preference, but used 30-30s abound all across this country.
 
  Also wholeheartedly agree about slingshots, snares and traps in general.  A rat trap will snag a squirrel as well as a snare will with minimal skill required.  IIRC I posted my favorite squirrel trap method earlier in this thread.  A trottline tied to a floating jug is powerful medicine too. 
 
  In the case of someone who is recently or soon to be out of doors, "whatever you can get" is probably the most aplicable answer.  A HiPoint carbine wouldn't be a first choise, but if it was what was in hand when you need it, well that's what's in hand.  Given that the scope of the conversation does spread to discuss people not in a jam- just considering how to prepare- then Charles' comment should ring especially for those planning ahead.  get the best you can get when times are good.  Then when things aren't too good you at least have good tools.

[Lost Farmboy]

  TeamNelson do you know about how many rounds the chamber adapter lasted until it became useless? Maybe the ones with the off set firing pin plug would last longer. If you didn't loose the plug. I got one for my 223 handi. My other idea would be to use a lee loader to make a squirrel / rabbit round. It would be nice to have a varmint round that could take a small animal at 200-300 yards and a low power round for close up small game. A soft point could be used for small deer.

I tried the small shotgun adapters too. Yes disappointing. Not accurate enough for small game at any range with a 38. Good enough for deer up to 50 yards maybe a bit more. Not any better than bow range. I tried the 410 adapter with my extra full choke turkey gun. The pattern is about double the size of the 12 ga loads. I don't know how useful they would be.


I now wonder if a longer adapter with a single shot or over under would work.


I am thinking about getting one of these.


 
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/229/products_id/60296
 
I think with the longer 357 adaptor it would be good for deer and hogs. With the 12 ga it would be good for anything. Still a lot of options for the 223. You could be setup for large and small game at the same time.
 

 

[teamnelson]

  TeamNelson do you know about how many rounds the chamber adapter lasted until it became useless? Maybe the ones with the off set firing pin plug would last longer. If you didn't loose the plug. I got one for my 223 handi. My other idea would be to use a lee loader to make a squirrel / rabbit round. It would be nice to have a varmint round that could take a small animal at 200-300 yards and a low power round for close up small game. A soft point could be used for small deer.

I tried the small shotgun adapters too. Yes disappointing. Not accurate enough for small game at any range with a 38. Good enough for deer up to 50 yards maybe a bit more. Not any better than bow range. I tried the 410 adapter with my extra full choke turkey gun. The pattern is a bot double the size of the 12 ga loads. I don't know how useful they would be.


I now wonder if a longer adapter with a single shot or over under would work.


I am thinking about getting one of these.

I honestly didn't wear one out; the ones that broke, broke early so I pitched those, and sold the new ones I had left over. I tried an offset firing pin adapter in an encore, and I was afraid of losing the pin. The case wall was the same thickness though, as it was .22 in .223 so I don't think it was any stronger. The longer adapter would be better I imagine, but I think the best is your other idea about loads.

[jlwilliams]

  A few years ago I made some modified .223 cases that shot a .22 pellet powered by a shotshell primer.  I copied the idea from something I had seen.  they worked OK but the short neck of the 223 made it hard to seat a pellet all the way down flush with the case mouth.  That made it next to impossible to load a few and carry them without the pellets falling out or generally getting buggered up.  Not too long ago I saw (I think on saubier?) where someone had done the same with 22 hornet with much better results.  The longer neck made the difference.  The ones I made weren't practical to carry but they shot well.  Accurate within the intended distance and quiet enough for backyard rabbit shots.  I used a Handi for that experiment.  Last thing you want is to make it hard to look down the bore when you are playing with light loads.  Break opens are king of the 'easy to check the bore' category IMO.
 
  It's fairly common to load 223 down to 22 hornet velocities.  No reason you couldn't load light rounds down further as long as you don't under fill the case.  I'll bet you could make something with a cast bullet and Trailboss that would be pretty tame, if you were so inclined.

[jakeemt]

Good luck to you man. I'd stick with a single shot 12 or 20. You can pick them up for ubber cheap at walmart brand new like 125. Then I'd cut the barrel back to 18 1/2 inches. you have to get a bit closer to squirrels and such but should shoot slugs pretty darn well. By homeless i assume you are thinking of living in campgrounds and such. If you are loking at a more urban setting try a 22 pistol. H&r rough rider, bersa thunder 22, or even a police trade in model 10 or 15. You could shoot wadcutters for quiet small game loads and some hp defense loads for everything else. Heck you could probably getby with a pellet rifle and knife man.

[Pat/Rick]

The problem with many choices is always having a changing view point. I have a M-6 scout 22/410 and a savage 24 30-30/12ga, but if I had to bug out I would probably take my gp-100 and my marlin both in .357, and my single six, and maybe a single shot .22 rifle. Of course other rifles and shotguns within grasp. When I get my game cart I'll work up a getting outta dodge arrangement.

[reliquary]

Hey, folks:  Without meaning to be deliberately antagonistic (I come across that way naturally, without really trying):
 
Y'all/we'all keep talking about things that don't really apply to flmason's plight.  He doesn't have the luxury of grabbing one or all of a dozen or so nice toys out of a well-stocked gun safe, or a bag of this and a case of that out of the ammo locker. before going on an excursion.
 
What I hear him saying is that he's caught up in a process by which he's having to make really hard choices, and may be forced to rely on some bare-bones guns'n'gear, even to the point of living out of a backpack or car.  What he's got right now is mostly what he's going to have next week or next month. 
 
I respectfully suggest we continue to try to help him out in that regard. 
 

[mannyrock]

 
 
Okay,
 
    Having reread all of the posts here, I now change my mind as to what firearm would be best for this situation.
 
    If you go to any large gunshow, or look around at big gunstores, you will see that somebody (maybe Century Arms?) imports a really well made, side by side 20 gauge coach gun, with three inch chambers, and external rabbit ear hammers, plus a thumb slide safety.  They are choked IC and IC.
 
  These are made in China, in a huge factory that has been making military arms for a long long time.  The stock is an attractive hardwood, with cut checkering.  They are built like tanks.  They been imported here for almost 10 years now.
 
   I think that brand new in the box, these go for about $265 dollars. 
 
   For self defense, small game getting, varmints, and even up close larger game (magnum shells with #3 buck), this would fit the bill.   The only other thing I would add would be a really inexpensive, single shot, .22 rifle, that you could buy used for cheap at a flea market.
 
Mannyrock
 
 
 

[jlwilliams]

Hey, folks:  Without meaning to be deliberately antagonistic (I come across that way naturally, without really trying):
 
Y'all/we'all keep talking about things that don't really apply to flmason's plight.  He doesn't have the luxury of grabbing one or all of a dozen or so nice toys out of a well-stocked gun safe, or a bag of this and a case of that out of the ammo locker. before going on an excursion.
 
What I hear him saying is that he's caught up in a process by which he's having to make really hard choices, and may be forced to rely on some bare-bones guns'n'gear, even to the point of living out of a backpack or car.  What he's got right now is mostly what he's going to have next week or next month. 
 
I respectfully suggest we continue to try to help him out in that regard.

  True enough, but there is validity to thread drift up to a point.  You never know who will come across this thread and what their circumctance may be.   While I for one made sure my first posts and some subsequent were directly relevant to the OP's situation (I still think a van is more important than a rifle for someone looking at impending homelessness, at first) it makes sense to discuss stuff that comes naturaly from the ebb and flow of the conversation.  Much of it may be helpful to flmason, some may be better suited to someone else with an interest in a "cost effective survival rifle".
 
  BTW, I didn't think you came across as antagonistic.

[SHOOTALL]

@TeamNelson - Yes, no doubt, a shotgun may have been OK as primary when you had a conestoga wagon to haul things in. Therein lies the rub. A .22 of some sort makes sense for game gathering and ability to carry lots of ammo, on the cheap. But it's debatable for anything aggressive that you need to stop *now*.
Don't discount a rifle in 22 LR for defense , loaded with some hyper HP's it would offer good defense inside 50 yards and be more accurate than a handgun. If you depend on shooting all your meals the difference in 22 ammo and shotgun ammo is little more than time it takes to run out. Better to fish and trap .
I guess one has to decide which tradeoffs one can best deal with.
yes this is life really.
@bilmac - Yes, I agree. When I do the math on ammo costs for a shotgun, it's doesn't work out. But it does have the ability to provide some load for almost any size game. So you gain flexibility thought the ammo selection, but it costs.
cost in what way ? cost per shot ? or cost to launch a certain payload ? Is it cost effective to launch an ounce of lead at a charging bear with a 22 LR vs. a 12 ga slug gun ? Or how good are you at shooting a flying bird with a 22 ?
@CharlesP - LOL! You must be an engineer. Seriously though, yes there's probably  a quality line to not drop below if possible.

 Trade offs are real. What gun will do most everything needed to be done ? what gun will do it when the shooter is sick , hurt etc. all things considered a shotgun is the most versatile gun aval. We all like to think of ourselves as the perfect shooter in the worst conditions i expect the back country has many tales of people whos fate will never be known who though just such about themselves .
 A good 12 ga is seldom a bad choice. Ammo can be had on the cheap , use what was used before the sabot / copper plated / nickle plated super bang ammo hit the market . Lead buck shot and slugs killed  deer before self contained shells hit the market as did unplated fine shot worked on bird and bunny.
 
 

[BUGEYE]

my $99 cricket .22 single shot is my choice.  plus I have around 10,000 rounds for it.

[Pat/Rick]

Lots to be said for a .22 single shot or otherwise. And 10,000 rounds of ammunition is enough to provide meat for three meals a day for ten years. Granted that meat might be tweety bird soup, but it still beats starvation. Having a few bricks of the quiet Colibri would provide stealth hunting capabilities.
 
A .22 rifle and a .38/9mm or larger handgun for defense sounds like a good enough combo.
 
 

[BUGEYE]

Lots to be said for a .22 single shot or otherwise. And 10,000 rounds of ammunition is enough to provide meat for three meals a day for ten years. Granted that meat might be tweety bird soup, but it still beats starvation. Having a few bricks of the quiet Colibri would provide stealth hunting capabilities.
 
A .22 rifle and a .38/9mm or larger handgun for defense sounds like a good enough combo.

Italians used to eat tweety birds all the time.  and if you're hungry...........
if you toss in the liver, heart and gizzard, you have a very nourishing soup.

[SHOOTALL]

Lots to be said for a .22 single shot or otherwise. And 10,000 rounds of ammunition is enough to provide meat for three meals a day for ten years. Granted that meat might be tweety bird soup, but it still beats starvation. Having a few bricks of the quiet Colibri would provide stealth hunting capabilities.
 
A .22 rifle and a .38/9mm or larger handgun for defense sounds like a good enough combo.

Now who will tote 20 bricks of 22 ammo ? How long will heel based bullets last in the pack ? zip lock bags only last so long. If the idea is to store at home then any round will work.

[tacklebury]

In 1987 I got a good deal on Federal Lightnings when a gun shop was goin outta business.  Still have about 7000 left after shooting thousands.    They still work albeit years of being moved around have damaged some of the noses and the plating has chipped off some.  They don't group quite as well.  Was thinking of getting an Accurizer from Pacotools to see if it improves their abilities. 

[Pat/Rick]

Lots to be said for a .22 single shot or otherwise. And 10,000 rounds of ammunition is enough to provide meat for three meals a day for ten years. Granted that meat might be tweety bird soup, but it still beats starvation. Having a few bricks of the quiet Colibri would provide stealth hunting capabilities.
 
A .22 rifle and a .38/9mm or larger handgun for defense sounds like a good enough combo.

Italians used to eat tweety birds all the time.  and if you're hungry...........
if you toss in the liver, heart and gizzard, you have a very nourishing soup.

Yep, many times while guarding the ammo dump near Vicenza,Italy I saw Italians in the field across the road hunting birds........any kinds.

[powderman]

Lots to be said for a .22 single shot or otherwise. And 10,000 rounds of ammunition is enough to provide meat for three meals a day for ten years. Granted that meat might be tweety bird soup, but it still beats starvation. Having a few bricks of the quiet Colibri would provide stealth hunting capabilities.
 
A .22 rifle and a .38/9mm or larger handgun for defense sounds like a good enough combo.

 
YEP. A 22 and a good shot can take care of most situations.  POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

 
 
YEP. A 22 and a good shot can take care of most situations.  POWDERMAN. 

 
But will it take care of the ones you face ? Birds flying ? bunnies running ? big guys in heavy coats ? or maybe more important when you have the shakes from lack of food or medical problems ? The fallacy in lots of ammo is the same with a small truck. If you must make several trips / shots then in the end you have nither saved gas or shots.

[myronman3]

you underestimate the 22.   one of the biggest bears i ever saw killed was killed by a single shot from a 22lr.   .....it better be a helluva heavy jacket.   

[SHOOTALL]

you underestimate the 22.   one of the biggest bears i ever saw killed was killed by a single shot from a 22lr.   .....it better be a helluva heavy jacket.

No I really don't it is a great round but it is not a round I want to bet my life on. When starving or sick can I make the perfect shot needed ? Under pressure of being shot at can I be sure again I can make the golden shot to stop an attacker ? The 22 LR leaves NO room for error . In a survival situation I want the deck stacked for me.

[reliquary]

I agree on stacking the deck in my favor.  That's why I have a couple of inexpensive .22LR rifles and a single 12,  all with ammo, stashed in obscure locations "just in case", along with some better things around the house.  I like to think of it as covering the bets. 
 
If you can afford it, go for it.  If not, go for the compromise that best fits your individual situation, location, and potential threats.  In my area, a .22 will put meat on the table when anything else would be serious overkill.  That's why I have .22s as backup.  Everything else is primarily for self-defense.