2 domestic varmints of choice for food.

[hillbill]

if on your survival farm or farmette, you had the choice to raise two types of aniamls for food, and had to basically feed them off the land yu had, what would they be? i have the room to raise cattle and rabbits.you would have to plant and harvest fodder for both.goats, poultries and hogs would work depending on how you were fenced and set up.i would like to hear youalls ideas!the climate in your area would definitely effect your choice im guessing?

[billy_56081]

I think most under developed countrys run off of goats and chickens.
 

[BUGEYE]

goats can take care of themselves on grass, weeds and brush.   I would go with rabbits instead of cattle.  no refrigeration needed for that rabbit sitting there in his hutch.  chickens and eggs is a good idea too.

[vacek]

Your choice really depends on your acreage and amount of forage available per acre.  I grew up raising cattle so understand them and have a lot of respect for robustness.  If you have the acreage I would suggest 2-3 cows if I could get the temporary use of a bull everyyear.  You will average 3 calves per year if you figure in twins and the occasional loss.  Figure the 1st year at least one of hte 3 will be a young bull.  Keep him for breeding and sell off his mom or eat her.  From then on out starting building or maintaining your small herd.  Cattle and the other ruminants (sheep and goats) can convert indigestible cellulose to energy and protein.  I'm not going to get into how they do it as that can be looked up.  Trust me, cattle are good and large enough to not have a huge predator issue.  Keep the cows and replace them only as needed since then you have the kinship issue with the heifers and the bull.  Believe me, people rarely get tired of eating beef like they do .... sheep, goats, especially lean rabbits, and chickens.  If I had to go with a second it would be ducks or geese as they can handle themselves better than chickens.  Most of Asia's land based protein is ducks.

[mcwoodduck]

I think a combo of all.
Some chickens, but a garden to feed them grains and other foods for you and them. 
Rabbits are easy but the more of them you have the more you will draw in preditors.  Rabbits fox, coyote and bobcats all ruin in cycles.  As rabbits reproduce and become a huge food source for the preditors. As the rabbits diminish so do the fox, coyote, and bobcats.  Also food sources.
Goats and sheep provide milk as well as meat.  add a cow or two will give you milk for milk, cream, butter, and cheese as well as veal.  but you will need a bull that becomes beef jerkey and canned beef, steaks and sausage as soon as a problem arises.
I am guessing you are going to have the animals and keep them domesticated and not allow them and their offspring to become ferral, except for the cotton tails.

[chefjeff]

Meat produced  vs. amount of feed , its rabbits.Most small birds are easily trapped and used to be table fare about 50 years ago.Robin pie SC special.

[james]

Goats are hardy, will eat almost anything and can be used for meat and milk.  Of course, I'll have at least one horse for transportation in case there is no gasoline and can also be eaten if things get really bad.

[Lost Farmboy]

  It really depends on a lot of things. What is the purpose, survival, sustainable living or both? Where do you live? Weather and climate can make a big difference.


If for survival I would choose rabbits and muscovy ducks. Rabbits are easy to care for in a hutch. I would choose New Zealand reds if possible. You can get all the food they need with a machete. You cannot live on rabbit meat alone. There is no fat. Muscovy ducks are great foragers. They provide good healthy fats the rabbits do not have. Free range eggs are high in Omega 3s. Duck fat is great for frying things.


Muscovy ducks and rabbits are quite, they don't make noises that would give away your position. If you have to bug out you can easily carry a few in small pet carriers.


If for sustainable living I would choose miniature jersey cattle and bantam chickens. Miniature cattle are under 42” tall. You can raise 2 or 3 on the same land as 1 standard cow. Miniature jersey bulls are generally genital and easy to handle. Standard bulls are dangerous and difficult to handle. By free ranging cows and chicken together you reduce the number of flys and protect the cows from worms. Bantam chickens make better mothers than standard ones. Bantams are more likely to survive on their own if you have to bug out. You can raise more on the same feed. You need extras because every thing seems to like chicken. Miniature jersey cattle are very rare and very expensive.


If cattle were not an option I would go with Nigerian Dwarf goats or miniature Tunis sheep. Goats are browsers and sheep are grazers. The Nigerians milk taste less goaty than other breeds. Tunis sheep are the smallest sheep that are good milkers. Sheep milk especially with out refrigeration is better than goat milk. Goat milk is bad if not cooled immediately.

[gr8ful]

I think most under developed countrys run off of goats and chickens.

and pigs

[Lloyd Smale]

hard to beat cattle if you have the room and the feed. they provide meat thats high in fat. Something your will really need if your trying to live off of beans and rice and also provide milk cheese ect. Chickens would be my second choise. Fresh eggs will last a long time if just burried in the back yard.

[reliquary]

In the discussion of fowl, bantams and guinea fowl are hardy and great survivors.  My folks moved off the farm when I was about 6 and left a lot of both behind...we kids actually went back there and hunted them for several years afterwards.  They eventually merged with flocks on adjoining farms.
 
Another trick I read about for storing eggs was to coat them in Vaseline.  Not sure why that would work and haven't tried it. 
 
Rabbit hutches are easy to build and maintain and they can be fed off scraps from the garden if need be.
 
I'm not sure about raising any large livestock in this area.  I don't have the space, and I'm thinking there will be lots of feral goats (already see 'em), cattle, and feral hogs (already infested) available for the foreseeable future. 

[no guns here]

There a saying that I have read... something about where there are goats there is a desert.  Basically that goat herding kills off vegetation do to over browsing.  Anyway, only one person has mentioned pigs at all.  Pigs being basically omnivorous would be easier to feed.  Some of the old breeds are grazing pigs versus having to be raised in a barn like the three main pork lines in the US today.  Pigs are prolific and produce good amounts of meat and as various peoples in the US have proven in one way or another, EVERY part of the pig can be eaten if you want to badly enough.
Now I'm not an expert, but if I could do so, I would have enough cattle to butcher one or two steers a year.  I would supplement that with hogs so that I could butcher several per year.  Add in a couple chicken coops for eggs and several per year for food.  Maybe a rabbit hutch or three would provide a bit of variation in the diet too.  A small herd of goats would provide more than enough kids for a couple a year for the table.The only problem with all of this is feeding them all in a bad situation.  Ideally you would have to have enough land to support them all with rotation grazing PLUS enough hay/sileage for winter.
 
If I were forced to pick, I'd leave out the cattle.  Too big, too much meat for processing and easy storage.  I'd guess it'd be easiest to do with goats, pigs and chicken.
 
NGH

[mannyrock]

 
 
      Been there and done that.
 
      Absolutely no question: goats and rabbits.
 
      For all of those folks that are voting for cattle and chickens.  Where are you going to get those hundreds of pounds of feed and cracked corn that you will need to raise these animals?
 
     The primary feed of goats is the same as wild deer:  scrub, browse, tender twigs.
 
    The primary feed of rabbits is grass and hay.
 
    Enough said.
 
Mannyrock
 
 

[Rex in OTZ]

A option for cattle owners is your Local ABS or Curtis dealer (Artificial insimination dealers aka AI) they for a fee can AI your livestock cheaper than the liability of having a bull on the place.
AI has been round since the mid 1960's, one has a creamcan size nitrogen tank the product is kept in, the can is good for about 6 months to a year depending on the capacity, product (semin)is cataloged and one can order diffrent breeds of livestock so if you had a purebred Jersey a purebred bull can be selected, they even have it down to percentages of how many female offspring a particular bull produces in the stats.
They have hormone shot they can inject to cycle the particular livestock into a heat cycle to ready for breeding instead of wating for nature to take its course.
You been to a pet center and seen the bull stick chew toys they sell for Dogs?, a real bull can be damaged permanantly (broke Dk) if its broken,After a accident like that ther just a big tough meaty critter useless for breeding so never have if you can help it another bull around they fight while trying to mount and this particular mishap can happen (a very expensive mishap).
http://www.absglobal.com/
http://www.onlinebullstud.com/aboutus.html
 
http://www.innovis.org.uk/aboutus/   sheep
 

[spooked]

Easiest  would be goats 'n chickens. however I'm actually keeping cows right now along with a couple of pigs for meat, and chickens. Horses were costing to much and I got rid of them , though I think I'd like a "plug" to pull a double shovel in the garden..

[mannyrock]

 
 
 Hey Guys,
 
    The original post asked about meat animals on a farm in a survival situation, not in an ordinary situtation.  Cattle require medicines, antibiotics, equipment, grain, lots of salt, etc. etc. etc., none of which would be available.
 
    Chickens require scratch corn, "dosing", and lots of other stuff.  They are also filthy to the max and their droppings (splatters) carry diseases that are fatal to humans.
 
   As mentioned, I've raised both of them.
 
   Again, the answer is goats and rabbits. (I've raised them too.)
 
   And, no way are chickens easier to raise than rabbits.  Rabbits stay put in their small hutches until you are ready to eat them.  And, they don't squawk all day long.  :-)
 
Manny
 
 

[Bugflipper]

My vote is hair sheep and banties. Hair sheep are what goats are supposed to be. Livestock that favor the worst protein source first then move to the more appealing when the weeds are all gone. Goats are like deer and eat the best browse selectively, when it is gone they will eat what is left.They generally pull roots and all up like a wool sheep and kill out their area so sustainability is a little harder unless they have an excess of land or you alternate pastures. Hair sheep will eat briers, polk and goldenrod before they ever try a piece of clover. They are resistant to worms and other parasites. They are acidic on the inside and produce an environment that is hard for a parasite to live in. The rest is like most goats. No upkeep of fur, about 7 adults and 6 kids per acre where 1 cow per acre is normal. They do not require the high protein of a goat in winter, they survive on the dead grass, no extra protein needed. And they are near silent so you wont have to hear what sounds like a woman being murdered all the time.

The banties can hustle for themselves, reproduce themselves and look out for themselves. Scratching out seed in the winter is enough for them to get by. They roost in the cedars when it's cold so they don't freeze to death. The are flighty so predators are less of a problem. They are a good serving size for 4 if you have sides, 2 if you don't. They are incubator machines, so any wild eggs you find can be put under them to raise up as domestics. The down side is they can be noisy, I like the sound but some folks may not.

[hillbill]

lots of good posts guys!i know cows can take a lot of care and medicines.or at least some of them. i would probably revert to longhorn or corriente females crossed with a angus or other similar bull.the longhorns and corriente cattle are very good rustlers as far as feed goes and in  the experience ive had with them, are fertile and need little care and medicines.we have had cows of both breeds raise calves every year up into their 20's.the cows will commonly weigh 650 to 850 lbs and still wean a 500 lb plus euro sired calf at 8 months.if they have good milk and decent grass.i know this is not a great ratio for commercial cattle but thats not what im talking about either.i cant remember ever pulling a calf out of them either.we did dabble in crossbred watusi cattle as well for awhile.and they had all the same qualities but were much harder to handle.

[blind ear]

Bugflipper, hair sheep.
 
 I have been wondering about regular sheep, hair sheep sound better. Any links or leads to more info on them? ear
 
blind ear comes from " I squint and say huh? a lot ".    Are you a flyfisherman?

[Lost Farmboy]

  Hillbill I think the long horns are a good idea. The Spanish dropped a few off and by the 1860s there were 5 million of them roaming Texas. That would be an interesting cross with the Angus. I'd like to see the results. But I think I would get a long horn bull and both long horn and Angus cows.


Another good breed for the small farm is the zebu. They are small 30 to 40 inches tall. They are good foragers and very disease resistant. They don't do well in cold climates.


Cattle are my favorite animals. I have a hard time seeing them as varmints.

[Lloyd Smale]

the old timers managed to raise cows just fine. My grandparents and great grandparents did it and there wasnt vetrenarians around then or even if there was i doubt there were drugs for cows. They also managed to raise chickens ducks geese and rabbits. yes they had to feed them and to do it had to run a small farm but do you really think your going to survive without doing some drastic changes like actually working. The guinea hens are a real good suggestion. They can be left out of the coup and will actually defend themselves against preditors. They will also supliment there diets with insects. Theres nothing better then a bunch of guineas to rid your property of ticks. Only downside is there not quite as good eating as chickens but id bet most people raising chickens for survival are more conserned with eggs then they are with the chicken meat. One thing about rabbits. they may be easy to raise but a guy would starve to death if rabbit meat was the only meat available.

[Rex in OTZ]

critters need healthfull attention too.
Kicking out critters to fend for themselves, is just begging for problems, domesticated have hard enuf time as it is but to go fend in wilds is to remove the safety net we now have they certainly wont thrive and you wont prosper, you in the end will be taken down by ailemnts your animals infect you with
By protecting your livestock you protect them & yourself.
 
Over eating Disease was one the key ones for horses and sheep and goats in spring before turning them out on grass.
Hoof Rot
Sore Mouth
Black leg
Bloody Scours
Pink Eye
Burcillossis aka Bang's Disease (infectious abortion)-drinking milk/eating meat from infected animals causes Undulant Fever: infectious disease in humans (animals to humans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/flockvaccinations.html
http://www.sheep101.info/201/vaccinations.html
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/de-wormingandvac.html
http://www.littlecudchewers.com/Vaccinations.htm
http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/ah_beef_27.pdf
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/DiseaseInfo/

[SHOOTALL]

hogs and chickens , Chickens can be killed and eated. hogs can be killed cured or salted and stored for later use. Never salted a beef or goat. Rabbits would be the third choice but chickens will live off everything from seed to bugs. Pigs will find food and eat most any scrap , root what ever. Never saw a rabbit egg except at Easter 

[mannyrock]

 
 
  Sorry, but I must disagree on the guniea fowl.  Defend themselves? You've got to be kidding.
 
  I had a dozen full grown ones, that did well outside for about 6 weeks.
 
  And then, a bobcat moved into the area.
 
  He killed all twelve of them and dragged them off in about two weeks.  All of them.
 
  I finally trapped (and killed) the bobcat, by putting a chicken in a small cage, nailing it to a tree at about 4 feet above the ground, and putting 3 steel traps under it, covered with leaves.  I caught the cat on the third night.  (Had a special kill permit from the game warden to do so.) Twenty gauge blast, no. 4 buck, at 20 feet, ended his reign of terror.
 
 
  Best, Mannyrock

[blind ear]

Bugflipper, hair sheep.
 
 I have been wondering about regular sheep, hair sheep sound better. Any links or leads to more info on them? ear
 
blind ear comes from " I squint and say huh? a lot ".    Are you a flyfisherman?

Yes sir, flipping bugs on a fly rod is where my screen name came from. A lot of us migrated from the shadetree varmint hunting forum when it shut down and GB was good enough to take in the refugees. I didn't like all the varmint hunting names everybody else had so I went with fly fishing.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/hair.htm
http://www.critterhaven.biz/info/  Use the green links on the right hand side to navigate the page. I really don't have any links anymore so just searched for a couple to get you started on the breeds so you can search for the one you like.

 Barbados black belly are the breed that are generally the most resistant to everything. The horned version is called American blackbelly. They were crossed with a mouflon and big horn to get their horns. The information for one is good for the other besides the horns. A small carcass sheep with big bones, not a lot of meat yield, maybe 50 lbs on an adult ewe and  a  year old  ram. They are not aggressive. I have raised them for about 10 years and have never had to worm them. The ewes produce one or two every year without a hitch. They do not have birth loss or anything, just a hardy little sheep if someone wanted to just clear ground or let them live off of an area not being used so it doesn't get overgrown. Mine usually drop in late winter. The temps are still in the teens and twentys. The lamb lays outside, wet in that temp in the sun to dry off after birth. By mid day he has dried and up and playing, Very hardy little guys with a good winter coat from the start. The best thing is they do not have that strong mutton taste because they have little fat like a game animal. An old ram has a hint of that rancid taste, but nothing like what you would buy at the store. He is to tough though and is best made into stews, jerky and pot roasts which do away with that slight taste anyhow. They are by far the best tasting I have had when it comes to sheep. I butcher the ewes when they quit producing or a few years after and they taste fine. A ram over 5 years old starts getting tough. They are all bones when born so don't expect much meat until almost a year old. They produce 1, 2 or 3 lambs. The ewe will produce the same number every year. So if a yearling and only 1 lamb, that's all it will produce from then on.

A mouflon is about like a brush goat. They will eat up brush ok but are bigger and need the protein of clover and things so they will browse a little. They are very timid, never had one that was aggressive. They are a bigger animal, about the size of a Northern deer. They are not as resilient as the blackbelly to sickness and internal parasites. I have seen some runny noses from time to time in the winter but never had to medicate or lost any to sickness. I have never had to worm them, but I rotate pastures every 3 months with them so they don't wipe out the clover that I keep up for the nitrogen instead of fertilizing. I plant a winter food plot for them to get by. They can't make it on only standing dead grass. I noticed they lost a little weight into mid fall the first year I raised them so I fed for a winter then did a winter plot every year after that. They have that muttony taste that I hate. It is not as strong as what you would buy in the store, but it is a slight taste with the 3 year old plus ones. Over 5 years old and a ram is useless for anything but stew, pot roast or jerky imho.

 
I hit WIKI and found a good bit. Thanks, ear

[Lloyd Smale]

Im sure some predetor is going to get about anything if it wants it bad enough but i had about 20 of them and watched them many times chasing off my dog and the neighbors dogs.

 
  Sorry, but I must disagree on the guniea fowl.  Defend themselves? You've got to be kidding.
 
  I had a dozen full grown ones, that did well outside for about 6 weeks.
 
  And then, a bobcat moved into the area.
 
  He killed all twelve of them and dragged them off in about two weeks.  All of them.
 
  I finally trapped (and killed) the bobcat, by putting a chicken in a small cage, nailing it to a tree at about 4 feet above the ground, and putting 3 steel traps under it, covered with leaves.  I caught the cat on the third night.  (Had a special kill permit from the game warden to do so.) Twenty gauge blast, no. 4 buck, at 20 feet, ended his reign of terror.
 
 
  Best, Mannyrock

[Lost Farmboy]

  I was thinking guinea fowl were predator resistant not predator proof. A bob cat is rare and a different class of predator than most. Against most predators guinea fowl have a much better chance than chickens. They make good watch dogs too.

[reliquary]

Here in my part of the world, we're infested with bobcats.  They can be shot without permit when they're preying on your critters. 
 
In spite of the high number of 'cats, I see three-four flocks of guineas while driving to & from town, and several groups of bantams.
 
In every group, there are winners and losers. 
 
 

[Bugflipper]

Bugflipper, hair sheep.
 
 I have been wondering about regular sheep, hair sheep sound better. Any links or leads to more info on them? ear
 
blind ear comes from " I squint and say huh? a lot ".    Are you a flyfisherman?

Sorry blind ear, hit  modify to your post instead of quote, got it straightened out, have a good day.

Yes sir, flipping bugs on a fly rod is where my screen name came from. A lot of us migrated from the shadetree varmint hunting forum when it shut down and GB was good enough to take in the refugees. I didn't like all the varmint hunting names everybody else had so I went with fly fishing.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/hair.htm
http://www.critterhaven.biz/info/  Use the green links on the right hand side to navigate the page. I really don't have any links anymore so just searched for a couple to get you started on the breeds so you can search for the one you like.

 Barbados black belly are the breed that are generally the most resistant to everything. The horned version is called American blackbelly. They were crossed with a mouflon and big horn to get their horns. The information for one is good for the other besides the horns. A small carcass sheep with big bones, not a lot of meat yield, maybe 50 lbs on an adult ewe and  a  year old  ram. They are not aggressive. I have raised them for about 10 years and have never had to worm them. The ewes produce one or two every year without a hitch. They do not have birth loss or anything, just a hardy little sheep if someone wanted to just clear ground or let them live off of an area not being used so it doesn't get overgrown. Mine usually drop in late winter. The temps are still in the teens and twentys. The lamb lays outside, wet in that temp in the sun to dry off after birth. By mid day he has dried and up and playing, Very hardy little guys with a good winter coat from the start. The best thing is they do not have that strong mutton taste because they have little fat like a game animal. An old ram has a hint of that rancid taste, but nothing like what you would buy at the store. He is to tough though and is best made into stews, jerky and pot roasts which do away with that slight taste anyhow. They are by far the best tasting I have had when it comes to sheep. I butcher the ewes when they quit producing or a few years after and they taste fine. A ram over 5 years old starts getting tough. They are all bones when born so don't expect much meat until almost a year old. They produce 1, 2 or 3 lambs. The ewe will produce the same number every year. So if a yearling and only 1 lamb, that's all it will produce from then on.

A mouflon is about like a brush goat. They will eat up brush ok but are bigger and need the protein of clover and things so they will browse a little. They are very timid, never had one that was aggressive. They are a bigger animal, about the size of a Northern deer. They are not as resilient as the blackbelly to sickness and internal parasites. I have seen some runny noses from time to time in the winter but never had to medicate or lost any to sickness. I have never had to worm them, but I rotate pastures every 3 months with them so they don't wipe out the clover that I keep up for the nitrogen instead of fertilizing. I plant a winter food plot for them to get by. They can't make it on only standing dead grass. I noticed they lost a little weight into mid fall the first year I raised them so I fed for a winter then did a winter plot every year after that. They have that muttony taste that I hate. It is not as strong as what you would buy in the store, but it is a slight taste with the 3 year old plus ones. Over 5 years old and a ram is useless for anything but stew, pot roast or jerky imho.

[Lost Farmboy]

  I saw a bobcat near my mountain retreat. There must be more. So far the only thing that eat my chickens there was a bear. Did he ever make a bloody mess of that chicken coop.