READ The Second After

[mannyrock]

 
Dear Guys,
 
    I am seeing alot of references to buying "white rice" as a survival food.  Forget it.  It is garbage as a food source. It is all white starch, with almost no vitamins, minerals or protein.  Yes, it will make you feel full, as you slowly starve to death.
 
   Instead, think beans.  They are almost the perfect food.  Iron, carbs, protein, broad range of vitamins, etc.  Instead of buying white rice, buy dried red beans, pinto beans or kidney beans.
 
   The very best bean, called the miracle food, is the yellow soybean.  Buy those if you can.  They taste terrible but can be ground up, or boiled, or even fried. You can mix them with your other food.  You will find those at health food stores. 
 
  You can almost live solely on beans, if you add some vitamin C, and fats.  You can't do that on white rice.
 
  Don't be tempted to buy a sack of yellow soybeans from the farm supply store.  They are treated with poison, so they won't get eaten by rodents and bugs.
 
   Now I will also tell you that I don't recommend this, and that it is totally illegal, but every farm supply store sells lots of anti-biotics for cattle and other livestock.  Tetracylaine, penicillan, etc., under brand names. They are not approved for human use. But, in an absolute emergency, rather than dying from an infection, I would not hesitate to use those on myself.  Anti-biotics are antibiotics.
 
   The original Katadyn water filters are ceramic filters only, not water purifyers.  They screen out microscopic bacteria, but that is all.  They don't remove chemicals, pollutants or other wastes.  So, I would opt instead for a water purifyer.
 
   Looting?  Given the fact that the vast majority of food stores don't have "back rooms" of inventory any more, I think that almost all of the looting of food stores would be over in 5 to 7 days, because there simply wouldn't be anything left in them.
 
  Just my thoughts.
 
Mannyrock

[blind ear]

The Chinese have or had, I'm not sure, a law that a dog over 10 pounds could not be kept as a pet. I don't know all the ramifications but it had to do with thier long history of famins and survival. I'll try to find out more. ear

[SHOOTALL]

one child also

[reliquary]

Ditto on the "beans" idea.  You can get them in 25-lb sacks in the groceries here.  Storage ideas are widely published, above, and elsewhere. I have about 75 lbs in long-term storage now.
 
 Also get at least one bottle of one-a-day vitamin/mineral supplements, per person.  $8-9.00 at Wal-Mart for 300, generic.  Beans, cornbread,  rehydrated milk, one v/m supplement, a little meat here and there, will keep you very nicely.
 
In RVN, any form of meat went into the pot or on the grill.  If it got to that here, I still remember how they made nouc mam when the Tabasco runs out.  Either one makes puppies taste good.
 
I have always subscribed to the "small, noisy dog; big, ugly gun" idea of home defense.  Plus, they're fun to have around...both of them.

[Lost Farmboy]

 
Shootall I want to avoid eating the dog. I don't plan to buy meal sized ones.

[Lost Farmboy]

Mannyrock I disagree somewhat with what you say about rice. I saw an orphanage in Laos. The children there had been surviving on only rice for 3 months. They were fairly healthy. We gave them enough money to buy cabbage for three months. We gave them seeds to start a garden also. To my surprise they found the flower seeds more valuable then the vegetable seeds. They were able to make things with flowers, sell them at the market and buy meat

I lived with the poorest people in the slums of Medellin Columbia. They lived on mostly rice with some beans supplemented sometimes with eggs and vegetables. The beans were like a side dish served on top of the rice.

What you say about the nutritional value of beans is true. But, beans are an incomplete protein. Beans and rice combine to make a complete protein with all essential amino acids. In the last 2 years the price of rice has doubled. Still I find rice much cheaper than beans. If you have a limited budget to buy storage food, I think you would live longer by buying 2 or 3 lbs of rice for ever lbs of beans. I think you need both beans and rice.

[blind ear]

Unpolished rice which makes the beans a complete protien is not as available. White polished rice is a pure starch with the best nutrition removed. I don't know how well unpolished rice stores long term. ear

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall I want to avoid eating the dog. I don't plan to buy meal sized ones.

Why ? a pack could sustain itself with births. May be able to feed itself and would follow you around needing no refrigeration    Of course size of dog should be determined by family size 
 
 Keep in mind a pet you can eat is commited to your wealfare !

[jcn59]

Pet chickens and rabbits can be a more self-sufficient source of food than a dog.   If you start to salivate when you look at your dog, you probably shouldn't have one.

[myronman3]

  while eating a dog may be an emotional problem for some, in a survival situation, there are two kinds of people.   those who will do what they need to to survive, and those that didnt survive.   that being said, i would have a really hard time eating dog.  things would have to be pretty damn bleak for me to cross that line....and i am someone who has been hungry before.   

[jcn59]

In the Patriot, they shot the guy with a grocery cart full of body parts.  I guess he was the kind of guy who would do "what it takes to survive", but somehow it back-fired on him. 
 
Eating one's companions is frowned upon these days. It's illegal in the northern states.  Eat chickens and rabbits instead.  You could even buy a hunting license and eat grouse, Myron!

[mannyrock]

 
Lost Farmboy,
 
   There is nothing wrong with rice as a supplement, but that is all it is.   You will starve to death eating white rice only.
 
   I don't know if you have ever heard of the Kepler Rice Diet.  It was invented by a Doctor at Duke University in the early 1970s.   He administered the diet at the Duke University Medical Center, under heavily researched and controlled conditions.   I was a student at Duke from 1972 to 1976 while this was going on.
 
  The basic concept of the diet:  You can eat all of the white rice you want, all day long, and you will continue to lose weight and starve to death.
 
   His research proved this without a doubt, and so he opened a clinic on campus, for grossly overweight people to come to.  It became THE weight loss diet of the early 1970s.
 
   People would come, and stay thirty to sixty days.  They were allowed to eat white rice all day long, so they didn't feel empty, but besides that, they were only allowed very minimum amounts of fat and protein.  By the end second week, they were losing between 10 and 20 pounds of weight a week.
 
  So, during my 4 years on campus, all of the rich and famous "fat" movie stars showed up and checked themselves into the clinic:  Buddy Hacket, Dom Deloise, Jackie Gleason, etc.   They stayed there a month or two, on the diet, walking around campus.  Some of these folks lost 40 pounds in a little over a month.
 
  Problem was, as soon as they returned to Hollywood, they went back to eating again, and gained it all back.
 
  The Kepler Rice diet is still widely quoted in research, and in many of the fad diets of today.
 
  Bottom line. Yes, some rice is good, especially to mix in beans, but you sure can't live on it alone. 
 
  People always say that the folks in southeast asia live almost soley on rice. This is simply not true. They eat soybeans, and lots of them. Soybean was discovered and cultivated there a thousand years ago.  It is their primary source of protein.  Asia is by far the largest consumer of soybean on the planet in terms of human usage.  And, when they don't have the bean, they use the soysauce alot, which is made from soybean.
 
Best, Mannyrock
 
 
 
   
 
 

[mannyrock]

 
   Eating dogs?

   I just finished reading "Undaunted Courge" by Stephen Ambrose, which is the history of the Lewis & Clark expedition and quotes almost all of their journals.
 
  I was very surprised to read that once they got to the Rockies, they found that many Indian tribes routinely ate dog for food.  More surprising was that both Lewis and Clark ate dogs with them very often, and really really liked the meat.  They said it was "quite succulent and agreeable."
 
  Of course, they were pretty darned tired of eating elk and antelop once they got to the Rockies, but it did surprise me that they had no problem eating dogs and liked them so much.  The tribes west of the rockies routinely ate them as well.
 
Mannyrock

[SHOOTALL]

 In the war of northern aggression some chewed and ate their boots , dog has to be better than that or rats .

[myronman3]

Eat chickens and rabbits instead.  You could even buy a hunting license and eat grouse, Myron!

if things are that bleak, a license wont even be a concern as the system will have collasped.   and if the system collapses, how long do you think grouse, rabbits, chickens or squirrels will be available?   people that think they are going to live off the land will be some of the first to starve. 

[jcn59]

I wuz just 'funnun' you, Myron.  Lighten up.
 
I think wild game will last 3-6 months, maybe longer in the less populated, harder to access areas of the far north.
 
The first thing I'll do is set up a trading post, not a hunting camp.

[no guns here]

Yeah wild game would be gone quickly near populated areas... however in 2 years wild game such as pigs would begin to multiply rapidly due to lack of hunting as the humans die off or become unable to reach areas farther than a few miles from town/communities.  Look at the book in question here.  In this scenario, population loss was up to 90% with the remaining 10% becoming less and less able to exert themselves for hunting.  So by the time of the end of the book the wild pig population would already be starting to rebound.  The surviving deer would multiply quickly with a lack of hunters, in 5 years deer pop's would be back to a huntable level.  Might be less than five years in some areas as deer from unpopulated areas would expand into those areas.  Down here in Texas, in 10-20 years you would see herds of large exotics from Africa/India roaming as a lack of control, hunting and natural predators would combine to allow the formation of large herds of animals like the nilgai.  Of course around here the longhorn would probably revert to form and become one of the dominant herbivores just as it was 175 years ago.  I guess the trick would be to be one of those who could make it past the first 2 years.
 
NGH

[mannyrock]

 
  A great survival novel that almost nobody knows about is one that was written in the 1940s, called The Earth Abides. 
 
     It assumes a virus breaks out and kills 99% of the world population.  The little pockets of people who survive are so few in number, and so widely scattered, that they don't even know if anyone else in America survived.
 
  Anyway, the story covers a 60 year period after the collapse.
 
  By then, all of the little kids (4th generation) are using bows and arrows, and speak a language so filled with slang that the original character (at age 85) can't understand what they are saying.   And also by then, vast herds of long horn cattle and buffalo are roaming all over California.  Old silver and copper coins are highly sought after, to make arrowheads. 
 
  A really great book, with alot of philosophy and things to think about. 
 
  At first, the survivors set up a school, so that they can continue to teach kids mathematics, history, etc.  But, after about 10 years, nobody cares anymore. The kids just don't show up.  So, there are no schools period, and all of the knowledge of the prior 1,000 years is lost.
 
  There were so few initial survivors, that there was plenty of food for everyone.  So, they just sat in lawn chairs on their front porches, talking and doing nothing everyday, for about 25 years, until their houses  fell down from disrepair.
 
   If you like end of the world novels, this is a must read.
 
  Mannyrock
 
 

[Lost Farmboy]

 
  People always say that the folks in southeast asia live almost soley on rice. This is simply not true. They eat soybeans, and lots of them. Soybean was discovered and cultivated there a thousand years ago.  It is their primary source of protein.  Asia is by far the largest consumer of soybean on the planet in terms of human usage.  And, when they don't have the bean, they use the soysauce alot, which is made from soybean.
 
 
 

 
 
I lived in SE Asia Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. Form what I saw those that say they live on mostly rice are correct. So I asked my wife of 20 years. She was born in Laos and lived there for 26 years. She says the average family would eat about 80 % rice. Poor families about 90% rice.


Soy? I never saw any. She said Lao and Cambodians almost never eat soy. In Thailand soy is rare, only vegetarians eat it regularly. Only the Vietnamese eat much soy. Mung beans are stuffed inside sticky rice, sometimes with pork, wrapped in banana leaves and steamed. It's the SE Asian version of the MRE. Black beans are sometimes used in desserts. Really they don't eat many beans of any kind.


Of the 20% that is not rice most is fruit and vegetables that we might call weeds. Rice is commonly eaten with a small amount of fermented fish. We have a 1 gallon jar in the basement that we have been eating out of for 2 years. It was never refrigerated. A small amount of meat.

[mannyrock]

 
Farmboy,
 
   Thanks for the info.
 
    I read about  "fermented fish" in a book called Five Years to Freedom, about Lieutenant Roe, who was held prisoner by the Viet Cong for 5 years brefore he escaped..  They called it something like "muk lahg".   As he described it, they just put whole small fish into an earthen pot, cover it with a lid, and bury it in the ground for a few weeks, and let it rot, into a disgusting paste.  Even as starving as he was, he couldn't put it in his mouth.  He said the stink was unbelievable.  He got adept at fishing for snakes, out of a small drainage ditch.  Don't know if I could eat that either!
 
Regards, Mannyrock

[Lost Farmboy]

  I think mine was made with cleaned fish. I don't see any guts or heads anyway. It taste good in small quantities with rice. I think it would be a good survival food, not needing refrigeration. I want to learn how to make it.

[Lost Farmboy]

  I do not have an emotional problem with eating dogs. I just think they would be more valuable as burglar alarms. In the book a dog saved the family's lives. In hard times a small dog would eat less than a big dog. I would not want more than a breeding pair. I would hope that a small hunting dog would bring in enough extra meat to support itself. I never hunted with dogs. Maybe the dog could help me find a wounded deer that I would have lost. Chickens free ranging can find most of their own food, I wouldn't be competing with them until winter. A sheep eats grass, again not competing. A dog warning of predators that might eat my chickens and sheep would earn his keep. There may be strays running in packs. They could be dangerous and I would have no problem eating them when game is scarce.

[SHOOTALL]

I think wild game will last 3-6 months, maybe longer in the less populated, harder to access areas of the far north.
 
The first thing I'll do is set up a trading post, not a hunting camp.

 
Two thoughts , as food in other places die out people will migrate to new supplies. A trading post is a magnet for people willing to kill to get what they want. To protect it a fort would be needed . That many folks will put strain on the wild game in an area.
I would venture with out protection wild big game would last a matter of a few weeks . Small game may be the saving grace.
As for value of the dog , people who have starved to death need no alarm .
as for eating discusting food ( term used loosely) it will depend on mental condition. Those who survive the best will over come their discust and eat to stay alive. Those who wait until the mind has been reducted to the point the body is shutting down may find its to late .

[jcn59]

All geographic areas will not have the same problems.  In the Second After, 80-90% of the people died the first year from starvation.   Someone in the book said the loss was only 5-10% in the mid-west.   Where I live in the mid-west, there's lots of food and few people.  The county where I live has more deer than people, not to mention other sources of fresh protein.  Starvation won't be a problem here for most people.  There will be other problems because we have many people over age 60, but most of us will keep on keepin' on.

[blind ear]

Like the cowboy said about his horse "I ain't gonna name something I might have to eat".
 
a movie script.  ear

[mannyrock]

 
 
Blindear,
 
   I think that the key to the Indians eating dogs, is that they didn't name them or treat them as pets.  They knew from the moment the litter was born that almost all of them would be eaten, so they just viewed them as we would view livestock.  No names, no emotional attachments, just raise them until they hit feeder weight.
 
  Perhaps after a few weeks, they chose just one dog out of the litter to "keep", so they gave that a name and treated it as a pet.
 
   Not many people have ever held a baby lamb, but if they did, they would find it almost impossible to believe that anyone would kill and eat it.  And yet, that's what ranchers raise them for.  They don't get attached.
 
  Regards,
 
Mannyrock
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

All geographic areas will not have the same problems.  In the Second After, 80-90% of the people died the first year from starvation.   Someone in the book said the loss was only 5-10% in the mid-west.   Where I live in the mid-west, there's lots of food and few people.  The county where I live has more deer than people, not to mention other sources of fresh protein.  Starvation won't be a problem here for most people.  There will be other problems because we have many people over age 60, but most of us will keep on keepin' on.

in the book they had to fight off those comming to take what they had . Something to consider. I have read that hords of people will leave the cities in search of food. I would guess a 100 mile walk might not stop alot of them.

[jcn59]

Big city folk aren't always held in high esteem, except by themselves.   Look what happens when the lights go out, like in N.O..   They loot, riot, rape & kill.  Look closer and you will see that their victims are usually without means to self defense.  They are not as tough as they look, as a group.   Look what concealed carry his done to the crime rate.   Nobody likes an armed "victim".
 
Note also that the frequency of arms in the populations in the book is way less than in more rural populations.

[SHOOTALL]

i would agree some populations in some cities are not so well armed or fit to fight. but in parts of the South , Mid west and North West i would not bet on them being wusses. also in NO there was plenty of armed resistance .remember also many Southern cities went thru race roits in the 60's and early 70's as did LA not so long ago. you can trust many southern people are armed to the teeth. The run on guns and ammo has been going strong since Bill Clinton took office . I dare say it will be a time to rivil even the western films . Some will go postal while others go cowboy  back 

[no guns here]

100 mile walk WILL stop a lot of them.  Some will kill each other.  Many will just quit.  That's 4-5 days of steady walking most likely with little food or water.  Can a fit adult do that?  Yep... with just water and hopefully a bit of food.  Can that same adult do that hike with 2-3 kids tagging along?  Look around your town and see how many fit adults you can find there.   I bet 80% of the population falls into one of the following groups:
 
Elderly
Very Young
Diseased or handicapped
Medicinally dependent to the point of not being able to walk, run, exercise
Morbidly obese
 
Out of the remainder, many will stay in place and die.  Many will not be able to defend themselves and become victims of the few strong ones.
 
The ones to watch out for will be the mobile, organized groups of younger, fairly fit, folks who really don't follow society's laws now.  Drug gangs, motorcycle gangs etc will be the ones to watch out for.  They rape, rob and steal now so if TSHTF that activity will only escalate as they roam and look for more targets of opportunity.
 
I believe that you are looking at about 5-10% of the general population who will be mobile and strong after the first month of a bad scenario.
 
 
NGH