Michiganers Alert...GOP Bolsheviks use 'Shock Doctrine' to seize total power..

[Gary G]

Then we are in a pickle either way.

When do we get to start over?

[Casull]

Then we are in a pickle either way.

When do we get to start over?

The new batch of Tea Partiers/Republicans in the House seem to have gotten the message.  However, if it doesn't take, starting over may happen sooner rather than later.   

[gypsyman]

I live 60 miles south of Detroit. In the 60's, my dad took me a couple times to see the Tigers play, usually when it was against the Yankees, as Mickey Mantle was an idol of mine.
I can remember walking around the streets, and even though I was to young to really have a grasp of things, I know my dad wasn't afraid. He had worked in Detroit in the late '30's, before a 3+year vacation in the S.Pacific, like Vela Savela,  Guadalcanal, and Bougainville. Anyway, back to Detroit.
I have done gun shows at the 8 mile Armory,Michigan State Fairgrounds, and Dearborn Civic center, in the late 80's, and early 90's. I hadn't done a show in that area for 15 years. There was a show at the fairgrounds, about 2 years ago. When I got off I75, and turned down 8 mile, it looked like I had arrived in Kosovo. Maybe, maybe, 1 house in an entire block wasn't burned,boarded up, falling apart, or in. Business', that were trying to stay open, had more bars on the windows, than the lions cage at the local zoo.
Now, with that being said, lets point out one fact. Democrats have run Detroit, and most of Michigan for the last 40 years. Do we keep running our heads into the wall, and wondering why nothing is being accomplished, or do we try something different. gypsyman

[ironglow]

Gypsyman;
  That is a repeat in most "blue" states.  Many of the cities are totally run down.  I spoke earlier about Buffalo and how between the unions, greenies and taxes, most of their industries have been driven out.  Niagara Falls is if anything, in worse shape... See what one courageous reporter writes..   http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/91cocon.html

  I guess the cities in northern "red" states are surviving OK, but the "blues" are in a hurt !

[carbineman]

Gypsyman;
  That is a repeat in most "blue" states.  Many of the cities are totally run down.  I spoke earlier about Buffalo and how between the unions, greenies and taxes, most of their industries have been driven out.  Niagara Falls is if anything, in worse shape... See what one courageous reporter writes..   http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/91cocon.html

  I guess the cities in northern "red" states are surviving OK, but the "blues" are in a hurt !

In Milwaukee there are some areas where the power company won't work on the power lines without a police escort. Where my buddy lived years ago off Capitol Drive, no sane person would venture there today.

Milwaukee has had Democrat leaders for as many years as I can remember. That said I'm not wild about Republicans either, but love what Scott Walker is doing. Can't name one other politician that gave back parts of his paycheck, that is after he paid taxes on it. This man is the right man at the right time.

I'm sure some kind of price will be paid as the first pioneer always ended up getting the most arrows, but I suspect he doesn't care at this point, as he has accomplished something and outed the unionized public employees union for what it is. And it ain't for the kids.

[Gary G]

When we were a free society and had to depend on ourselves, we were nice to our neighbors because we knew that hard times could fall on us at anytime and we might need their help. We also were willing to help others.
 
Now that we live in a government dependent slavery. That is no longer necessary as we always have  the foodstamps, welfare, unemployment, social security, free health care, etc. to fall back on. Of course, we are also much poorer than we would have been.

In a free society, without regulation , unions, and employment laws, everyone that wants to work has a job. There is always plenty of work that needs to be done. Government is the cause of employment.  I remember reading that in Jefferson's day, according to Jefferson, there was no unemployment except for the few just getting off boats in the port cities. Yet in France where they had many laws, unemployment was rampant.

[ironglow]

Gary G;
   Some very valid points you made there..

[Dixie Dude]

When America got it's independence from Britian, the average American had a higher standard of living than the Brittish.  It was totaly capitalist.  People owned their own businesses.  After independence, people could move west and claim land to farm.  Government provided very little except military and commerce laws.  There was no socialism.  It was tried at Jamestown and Plymouth, but was abandoned in favor of private ownership and production, because people were starving under socialism.  Americas problems began with the creation of the Federal Reserve system and abandoning the gold standard. 

[Dixie Dude]

Here is the economic circle as I was taught in college:

http://www.eajohansson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Fig_2.6_Circular_Flow_Simple.jpg

Here is the economic circle with the government in the middle:

http://www.eajohansson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Fig_2.6_Circular_Flow_Simple.jpg

Government produces nothing tangible, They are only there to produce what capitalism can't or won't produce because there is no profit it it.  Like military defence, or roads, bridges, ect.  The more they tax, the more they take out of the productive circle, especially in transfer payments like social security and welfare.  The more taxes the producer has to pay, the higher his product goes.  The more tax you take from individuals, the less they can buy.  When government gets too big, the system supporting it colapses. 

Capitalism worked fine for a long time, we never adapted any socialist ideas until the 20th century except for the government helping to build the railroads west and maybe the civil war.  First was the creation of the Federal Reserve.  That created booms and depressions/recessions. 

Next doing away with the gold standard.  In 1800 and 1900, a $20 bill OR one ounce of gold buy you two good suits of clothes.  The gold still can, but $20 will hardly buy you the socks today.  See what happened to the money when we did away with the gold standard and created the Federal Reserve instead of the treasury department printing gold notes. 

Adapting 40 hour work weeks, and child labor laws was a good thing.  However some people want to work more than 40 hours to make more money, some don't.  Child labor laws were good for factories, but in 1900 80% of people still lived on farms, child labor laws exempted farmers. 

Social Security, welfare, medicare, medicaid, all were created in the 20th century after the Federal Reserve and doing away with the gold standard.  Charities took care of the poor.  Neighbors helped each other.

Whenever socialism has been tried it has stagnated capitalism or failed.

[billy_56081]

Gosh darnit ya went and clouded up his propaganda with facts again. You wouldn't have fared to well in the third reich.

[Casull]

Keep in mind Marx had not invented or described what 'capitalism' is until about a century later.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

Sooooo, Marx invented capitalism?  Must be related to Al Gore.   

[carbineman]

TM7, I see that you are now an expert on not only Wisconsin, but Michigan also, not to mention economic theory. I was wondering if you were the Shell Answer Man at one time also?

[ironglow]

  I MUST protest the idea that our forefathers during the initial settlement, colonial or frontier eras were at all socialist.  I am about to finish my second book this month in my study on the Plymouth colony.  The first one, now completed, is Gov Bradford's journal, which he kept from 1620 till 1647.  By the orders of the capitalists (called "adventurers:) back in England, who financed the colony, the colony was required to try socialism.  That grand experiment only lasted 1.5 years before they abandoned the hare-brained scheme as unworkable...just as it has been proven everywhere it has been tried !
   Our colonial/frontier experience was one of either "community", "Christian charity" ..or both !  Prior to the onset of the "big government" era, virtually all alms, charity, and "poor farms" were handled by the churches or benevolent private citizens.  What little was done by government, didn't go above county level.
  This was a superior system since it was handled at a local level and local people knew just who was truly needy and who was just plain lazy.....and there weren't near so many "bleeding heart liberals"..ready to spend EVERYONE ELSE"S hard earned money !
  The stark difference between our early system and today is:
 
  A) Benevolence and Christian charity originates with the people and works it's way up through the community, caring for the TRULY needy..
         ....and;
 
  B) Socialism originates with the government and is FORCED down upon the people...and when it is administered by "central planning", there is no way they can know enough to distribute funds to the truly needy and weed out the fakes.

[acorns]

Best I can tell only one reply to this thread lives in Michigan. I've lived here 65 yrs. Worked 42 as machinist for GM.
Worked in the foundry during the "oil embargo", that's a treat.
What Gov. Snyder wants to do is tax my pension to "save" the state. I voted for Snyder, he was the lesser of two evils. You know, like Bush vs. Kerry. The money that Snyder wants to tax in my pension was CONFISCATED from my pay because of an agreement between the UAW and GM. I had no say in this agreement. Snyder has a vision to save the state, like our previous gov. Granholm----her vision was that "we would be blown away by her plans for the state." Last year 62 people got "blown away" in Flint,MI.
This state is a disaster area. We can't afford the government in our lives. We must be responsible for our own actions. I made every effort to prepare for retirement, without government aid. If Snyder leaves my pension alone I'll probably make it. We need Conservatives in government, not Republicans.
Look up the legislation Rand Paul has introduced in the US congress.

[Gary G]

  I MUST protest the idea that our forefathers during the initial settlement, colonial or frontier eras were at all socialist.  I am about to finish my second book this month in my study on the Plymouth colony.  The first one, now completed, is Gov Bradford's journal, which he kept from 1620 till 1647.  By the orders of the capitalists (called "adventurers:) back in England, who financed the colony, the colony was required to try socialism.  That grand experiment only lasted 1.5 years before they abandoned the hare-brained scheme as unworkable...just as it has been proven everywhere it has been tried !
   Our colonial/frontier experience was one of either "community", "Christian charity" ..or both !  Prior to the onset of the "big government" era, virtually all alms, charity, and "poor farms" were handled by the churches or benevolent private citizens.  What little was done by government, didn't go above county level.
  This was a superior system since it was handled at a local level and local people knew just who was truly needy and who was just plain lazy.....and there weren't near so many "bleeding heart liberals"..ready to spend EVERYONE ELSE"S hard earned money !
  The stark difference between our early system and today is:
 
  A) Benevolence and Christian charity originates with the people and works it's way up through the community, caring for the TRULY needy..
         ....and;
 
  B) Socialism originates with the government and is FORCED down upon the people...and when it is administered by "central planning", there is no way they can know enough to distribute funds to the truly needy and weed out the fakes.

That's great and truthful post Ironglow.
Have you read Dilorenzo's "How Capitalism Saved America"? The first chapter proves your point.

[Drilling Man]

Best I can tell only one reply to this thread lives in Michigan.

  You would be wrong about that...

  DM

[ironglow]

  I MUST protest the idea that our forefathers during the initial settlement, colonial or frontier eras were at all socialist.  I am about to finish my second book this month in my study on the Plymouth colony.  The first one, now completed, is Gov Bradford's journal, which he kept from 1620 till 1647.  By the orders of the capitalists (called "adventurers:) back in England, who financed the colony, the colony was required to try socialism.  That grand experiment only lasted 1.5 years before they abandoned the hare-brained scheme as unworkable...just as it has been proven everywhere it has been tried !
   Our colonial/frontier experience was one of either "community", "Christian charity" ..or both !  Prior to the onset of the "big government" era, virtually all alms, charity, and "poor farms" were handled by the churches or benevolent private citizens.  What little was done by government, didn't go above county level.
  This was a superior system since it was handled at a local level and local people knew just who was truly needy and who was just plain lazy.....and there weren't near so many "bleeding heart liberals"..ready to spend EVERYONE ELSE"S hard earned money !
  The stark difference between our early system and today is:
 
  A) Benevolence and Christian charity originates with the people and works it's way up through the community, caring for the TRULY needy..
         ....and;
 
  B) Socialism originates with the government and is FORCED down upon the people...and when it is administered by "central planning", there is no way they can know enough to distribute funds to the truly needy and weed out the fakes.

That's great and truthful post Ironglow.
Have you read Dilorenzo's "How Capitalism Saved America"? The first chapter proves your point.

  I haven't read that book Gary, but if I get hold of a copy, I may well do that ! 
   One thing big government did to the old style charity, was to suck up in taxes, the very funds which were had been so rightly distributed previously on a local basis. 
    Big govt has a strange effect on funds..if it draws say, a given $65,000 which would have gone for local needy, and takes it into the govt maw...only $35,000 or less, is likely to return...and then it is more likely to be distributed to the lazy, rather than to the truly needy.

[Gary G]

Big govt has a strange effect on funds..if it draws say, a given $65,000 which would have gone for local needy, and takes it into the govt maw...only $35,000 or less, is likely to return...and then it is more likely to be distributed to the lazy, rather than to the truly needy.

Right, the bean counters must be paid too. Then some politician will take credit for any good work.
It is the same with highway taxes and most all confiscations.

How can people in Washington know what is needed in Podunk, AL. Yet, they would tell you that they know perfectly.....and some people believe them. Hayek called it "fatal conceit".

[Casull]

TM, you do understand the difference between describing something that already exists, and INVENTING that same thing, don't you?   

[Casull]

 

[Dixie Dude]

Another problem with America, is for years now they have allowed too many mergers, which creates oligarths and ends up with control into a few.  For instance the oil industry.  Once there was many oil companies and there was gas wars on prices.  Amoco, Texaco, Gulf, Union 76, Sinclair, Esso, Standard, Chevron, Pure, Phillips 66, Mobil, Cities Service, Shell, and many more smaler ones.  Amoco, Texaco, and Gulf were bought out by BP (allowed by congress).  Esso, Sinclair, Mobil, and Pure were bouth out by Exxon.  Shell bouth a lot of small ones.  In the hands of a few there is less competition and higher prices. 

Same goes with steel, railroads, but AT&T was broken up. 

More smaller companies yeild lower prices.  Our government has allowed these mergers so that a big American company can compete on a global scale with the large foreign companies.  Problem is it gutted our industry so they had to move overseas in order to compete, and left Americans out of manufacturing jobs. 

[Cabin4]

Who's "they"?

[gypsyman]

TM, your right, in a round about way. To many over educated idiots running company's, that have no common sense. All they look for is the bottom line, lets make the profit margin look better, at the expense of the small guy. Wonder how the college professors will explain what's happening now, 50 years from now. OH, I know, they'll blame Bush!! ;)gypsyman

[Dixie Dude]

The government, SEC commission, has to approve mergers of corporations that cross state lines and maybe they allowed too many mergers.  AT&T was split up to allow more competition in long distance service with Sprint and MCI which went under.  TM7, facism and communism are both socialist, one has control of private companies like Nazi's (National Socialists) and tells them what to make for the government, the other takes complete control of private companies and property (bolshevik communists).  Capitalism is private ownership of property and means of production.  Capitalism is the most efficient means of production the world has ever seen.  Capital monopoly is not facist communism.  A natural monopoly like AT&T just happen because Bell invented the telephone and had a patent on it, so it evolved into a natural monopoly.  Utilities are regulated because they are natural monopolies, gas, electric, phone, if they are privately owned.  The oil companies merged into a few big ones, but because there is more than one, they cannot be regulated as monopolies, however, they do not like competition with natural gas and will not install the compressor stations at their service stations.  So, it is currently only fleets using natural gas or gas utilities. 

[Dixie Dude]

There are 50,000 private natural gas companies in the US.  All are regulated because they are considered monopolies in their local.  There are only 5 major oil companies in the US now controling 85% of production and sales.  None are regulated.  They will not allow natural gas refueling stations at their service stations.  We can, however put the refueling stations at privately owned stations.  Natural gas is $1.34 per gallon equivelant vs gasoline.  This is before the state and federal highway taxes.  98% of natural gas is produced in the US, the 2% that is imported is from Canada.  Why are we importing oil?  We are pushing to get fleets using natural gas.  The Feds have been slow in approving it for use in their postal delivery trucks.  UPS is the only non-governmental company that will use CNG (compressed natural gas) in their vehicles besides natural gas companies.  Power companies are pushing electrics and hybrids.  Power companies are much larger than natural gas companies as everyone has power and only 52% of American homes have natrual gas.  Percentage of regulated profits for Alabama Power is the same as Alabama Gas, but Alabama power is 10 times larger, so they have more money as a for instance.  Regulation of monopolies is a good thing but allowing 20+ oil companies to merge into 5 is not a good thing.   Those 5 CEO's can talk and make decisions that is good for all of them.  20 would have a harder time getting all of them to agree and would allow more competition. 

I think the same thing happened to the auto industry.  SEC allowing too many mergers and whittled it down to only 3 American companies.  They got sloppy with quality especially when GM had 75% of the American market.  That allowed the Japanese and Germans to import their vehicles and later build their factories here.  It started with GM about 100 years ago, then later the Chrysler corporation.  In WWII government required the auto industry to share technologies for mass production.  Willis invented the Jeep, but Ford made far more.  I remember when Congress was considering breaking up GM back in the early 70's because they were almost a monopoly.  They were going to split off Cheverolet from the rest of GM.  About that time we had the Arab oil embargo, and then the flood of Japanese imports to compete with GM.