Author Topic: What is up with all the "short mags" ? (Read 3711 times)

GeorgiaDave · « **on:** September 04, 2010, 03:45:23 AM »

Hello All,

I have never been a bandwagon jumper and believe in using what has been proven by myself and the experts. So, when the whole short mag craze started I just sat back and watched. I can certainly see the potentials for a short fat powder column, yet was far from impressed. Now, it seems that the craze is seemingly over, and I am not sure why. I have the opportunity to acquire a very nice and pristine .300 WSM but simply can not justify doing so. I have a .300 Win. Mag that is very accurate, predictable, and efficient which is exactly why I chose the rifle. Is there something I am missing or was the whole short mag craze a marketing ploy ? Someone please tell me their experience with a "midget mag" and why they are as good as a long mag. Thanks, and have a great day.

Dave

nomosendero · « **Reply #1 on:** September 04, 2010, 05:20:59 AM »

Or we could say what is down with the short mags. They are on their way down. The 300WSM & the 270WSM will survive but never be as popular as some thought. I don't see much future in the 7 & 325, even though the 7 could be the best, it doen't matter.

The 270 offers a real boost over a 270 & few people use the Roy, which is a great round. The 300WM beats the 300WSM with 180gr & over period. I can't get very excited about it.

The WSSM's are a joke & dead in the water.

Savage_99 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 04, 2010, 06:34:21 AM »

The belted magnums have a headspace problem in that they stretch the expansion web on the first shot unless brass is made up for that chamber.

I looked forward to the short magnums as they would headspace on their shoulders like a cartridge should. At the same time I was looking for lighter rifles also. The Kimber 8400 is good for those features and in the Montana model gave me another SS.SYN rifle as well. Mine is a 270 WSM and its accurate and it stays sighted in.

Its too bad that the 7mm WSM did not become more popular.

If Kimber would offer the 7mm WSM in the 8400 Montana I would get one.

I have had a complete battery of good rifles for a long time. They include pre64 70's, Brno 21/22's, Winchester High Walls etc.

nomosendero · « **Reply #3 on:** September 04, 2010, 08:35:11 AM »

Actually I headspace a belted mag at the shoulder & have even leaned how to avoid the initial stretch with
some of the chambers where this could be a problem. My 300 Sendero chamber is so tight though that I don't have to bother with that one. So for an experienced reloader it is a non-issue.

Savage_99 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2010, 06:27:29 PM »

Where is the ignore button for nomosend?

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2010, 02:08:02 AM »

in my 30 plus years of handloading ive never seen anyone that headspaces a mag round on its belt. As to case stretch its no more of a consern then a non belted case. If you have a large chamber in your 3006 the case will stretch the first time too. As a matter of fact i see alot less variations in chamber sizes between mag rounds then i do rounds like the 308 and 06. As to the short mags ive allways thought them to be an answer to a question that doesnt exist. Ive got 300 weatherby and win mags and they shoot just fine and in the case of the 300 win that round has one alot of 1000 yard bench rest competitions. Ive yet to see where the shorter stroke of a short action has ever gave me a second shot that i couldnt get with a long action and as a matter of fact in my opinion the longer action rounds feed better then the short stocky rounds and make for a smoother bolt throw that more then makes up for the extra stroke. What happens is the gun market gets stale so the gun manufactures brain storm and come up with a gimick like this and hand out a couple for presents to gun writers who praise there vertues and every wanabe rifleman flocks to buy one. Most who really know have a little chuckle and maybe buy one when there on the closeout rack at the store.

nomosendero · « **Reply #6 on:** September 05, 2010, 04:39:04 AM »

Now Lloyd, you might get put on ignore for revealing the facts.

nomosendero · « **Reply #7 on:** September 05, 2010, 04:45:37 AM »

Quote from: Savage_99 on September 04, 2010, 06:27:29 PM

Where is the ignore button for nomosend?

OK, since I am the Moderator here, asking why might be in order.

You can send Mr. Graybeard a PM if you have an ignore button issue. While your at it, you may want to point out the post that has you upset & ask him to please post on this forum ANYTHING from this
thread that is factually inaccurate. In doing that we can all benefit.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2010, 06:03:18 AM »

Quote from: nomosendero on September 05, 2010, 04:45:37 AM

you may want to point out the post that has you upset & ask him to please post on this forum ANYTHING from this
thread that is factually inaccurate.

Good luck there Nomo... Mr. 99 has had me on ignore for the longest time and for the life of me I never could figure out why. $:-\$ I think this thread has given me some insight!

Anyway, I have one belted magnum (a 300 Win Mag) and from the first loading all cases are sized to headspace on the shoulder. As Lloyd said,

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on September 05, 2010, 02:08:02 AM

in my 30 plus years of handloading ive never seen anyone that headspaces a mag round on its belt.

About the wisest thing I've heard is a gun writer who said something to the effect that if you already had a belted magnum, there isn't much sense in selling it to get a short magnum.

bigswede · « **Reply #9 on:** September 06, 2010, 07:06:32 PM »

As for me I absolutely LOVE my short mag, but I shoot the original. The 350 REM MAGNUM.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #10 on:** September 06, 2010, 07:28:56 PM »

GeorgiaDave-

The .300 WSM is a fine cartridge. last time I checked(quite a while back), ammo was more expensive than for the .300 WM – but that is not a concern to handloaders.

One of the big promises of the .300 WSM was lighter rifles. Doesn’t always work out that way and lighter means more recoil if other factors are the same – so lighter is not necessarily desirable.

What can you do with a WSM that you cannot do with a WM? Not much and less of importance. As has been pointed out, the WM is the better choice for heavy bullets.

That said, there is nothing wrong with the WSM, either. If you want the rifle, get it.

burntmuch · « **Reply #11 on:** September 07, 2010, 03:16:58 AM »

Not to hijack this thread but I have a question. I havnt started loading for my 7 mag yet. So My question is if you size to headspace off the shoulder, you eliminate the case stretching? Right? So you size just like a non belted case?
As far as the short mags. I found a 7mm wsm in a rem model 7 stainless, that had me drooling for a bit, but man that recoil has to be a bit stiff in that little rifle.

nomosendero · « **Reply #12 on:** September 07, 2010, 03:53:03 AM »

Quote from: burntmuch on September 07, 2010, 03:16:58 AM

Not to hijack this thread but I have a question. I havnt started loading for my 7 mag yet. So My question is if you size to headspace off the shoulder, you eliminate the case stretching? Right? So you size just like a non belted case?
As far as the short mags. I found a 7mm wsm in a rem model 7 stainless, that had me drooling for a bit, but man that recoil has to be a bit stiff in that little rifle.

Your answer is yes. For more info, look at the 300WM headspace thread.

benny · « **Reply #13 on:** September 07, 2010, 04:17:27 AM »

I almost bought a 270wsm once...then I found a closeout on a Mk5 ultralight in 270roy for 700 under msrp and that solved that...

james · « **Reply #14 on:** September 07, 2010, 04:50:22 AM »

I am happy they came out with the short mags. I have picked up some very nice traditional .270s, 7mags, and 06s dirt cheap. I don't own a short mag now but when I can trade one 30-06 for two 300 wsms I will be trading again.

roper · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2010, 03:43:21 PM »

Quote from: GeorgiaDave on September 04, 2010, 03:45:23 AM

Hello All,

I have never been a bandwagon jumper and believe in using what has been proven by myself and the experts. So, when the whole short mag craze started I just sat back and watched. I can certainly see the potentials for a short fat powder column, yet was far from impressed. Now, it seems that the craze is seemingly over, and I am not sure why. I have the opportunity to acquire a very nice and pristine .300 WSM but simply can not justify doing so. I have a .300 Win. Mag that is very accurate, predictable, and efficient which is exactly why I chose the rifle. Is there something I am missing or was the whole short mag craze a marketing ploy ? Someone please tell me their experience with a "midget mag" and why they are as good as a long mag. Thanks, and have a great day.

Dave

Dave, I got my first 300WSM about 2002 or 2003 and use mainly 165gr to 180gr bullets in my other 30 cal rifles so it fit in with my other hunting rifles. I never did get into all the hype about the WSM case and that just fueled the fire for any internet expert that didn't like something new. The few guys that I know that shoot them seem to like them and I like mine but I also like my 280AI,30-06 etc.

yogi · « **Reply #16 on:** September 10, 2010, 05:51:31 PM »

Has anyone shot the 300 OSSM by Olympic Arms? It is a 150 grain, 30 cal starting out at 3000 fps. Olympic is still producing wssm ar's. In camo, they seem to be making great predator rifles!
Yogi

Happy · « **Reply #17 on:** September 10, 2010, 06:05:50 PM »

Well I do not own a 300 Short Mag since I already have the 300 WM . Think a lot has to do with marketing a new round , as Remingtons 7SAM a good cartridge- never took off.
Then there is timing . The Marlin Me lever rounds have a cult following where the 307 Winnie never got a chance .
The 300 Savage looks somewhat like the winchester short mags , and wonder what if Savage had lenghtened the case to make room for more powder , would it stood up to the 308 W offering ?
Marlin has done well with the 338 Me , so wonder what that round with the fat case ,would do in 7 or 30 cal too.
Well a lot of people did go and buy a new gun , which is the reason they all want you to do .
What is going to come next ?

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** September 10, 2010, 06:16:02 PM »

The sooner they are gone the better. I do like the .350 Rem Mag but that's the only one I'd own.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #19 on:** September 10, 2010, 07:18:53 PM »

When Winchester came out with the 264, the 338 and the 458 Win mags they called them the short mags as there were 30-06 length and would work in standard actions and not need the expensive Magnum actions of the 375 H&H, 300 H&H, 300 Weatherby, or 404 Jeffery.
I find it funny that they recycled the name when they came out with the WSM rounds.
The WSM rounds were designed to give Winchester/ Remington Belted mag performance in a short (308 length) action.
The cut down 416 Rigby case gives the same volume as the thinner belted case. Same powder same bullet same speed.
Giving the ability to use lighter rifles and shorter barrels and achieve the same speeds.
as 300 Win, 7mm Rem Mag making ligher faster mountain rifles, and the 270 WSm took the place of the 264.
The down side is a harder kicking rifle but easier to carry all day.
Shorter guys just getting into hunting may want the horse power and speed of the belted round with the shorter throw of a 308 action.
What I don't get is the RCM (ruger compact mag) It is the same as the WSM rounds why not use the 375 Ruger and make 300 Weatherby speeds in a standard action? Instead they made a me too rather than chambering the WSM rounds. i think these are destin to die out first.
The 350 Rem was an attempt to douplicate the 35 Whealen in a short action. I think with round nose soft points it could get a new life in a Marlin 1895. And do what the 348 Win does/ did in the Model 71 only in a modern guise that can be scoped. I think a Hornady Lever Revolution version would have been a better idea than the 338 Marlin.
Well I guess i owe you all $.02.

Savage_99 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2010, 04:06:42 AM »

If you don't mind Lloyd I will correct your post where necessary.

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on September 05, 2010, 02:08:02 AM

in my 30 plus years of handloading ive never seen anyone that headspaces a mag round on its belt.In my 57 years of handloading I have found most handloaders, when FL sizing bring the die down to the shellholder. This sizes belted brass more than rimless. Just look at the drawings! As to case stretch its no more of a consern then a non belted case.Yes it is more of a concern as its greater with belted brass, just look at the actual cases or drawings. If you have a large chamber in your 3006 the case will stretch the first time too. And if you have a normal chamber it will not. As a matter of fact i see alot less variations in chamber sizes between mag rounds then i do rounds like the 308 and 06.I see few variations except the oversize chambers to the shoulder in the belted designs. As to the short mags ive allways thought them to be an answer to a question that doesnt exist. Ive got 300 weatherby and win mags and they shoot just fine and in the case of the 300 win that round has one alot of 1000 yard bench rest competitions. Ive yet to see where the shorter stroke of a short action has ever gave me a second shot that i couldnt get with a long action and as a matter of fact in my opinion the longer action rounds feed better then the short stocky rounds and make for a smoother bolt throw that more then makes up for the extra stroke. What happens is the gun market gets stale so the gun manufactures brain storm and come up with a gimick like this and hand out a couple for presents to gun writers who praise there vertues and every wanabe rifleman flocks to buy one. Most who really know have a little chuckle and maybe buy one when there on the closeout rack at the store.

To each his own Lloyd. I like the Kimber Montana in the WSM as its lighter and yet the WSM also headspaces on its shoulder.

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2010, 09:20:12 AM »

Savage, nothing at all wrong with the 270WSM. Like I said before, the 270 & 300 WSM will survive & are good rounds. I understand why you like your Kimber, they are quite nice. I looked at the 270WSM, but I have other rounds that outperform it by a little. And the 1/2" shorter action & along with that a few once saving in weight is a non factor for me when choosing a round of this performance level & longrange application.

You have found that "most handloaders, when FL sizing bring the die down to the shellholder." Well, I don't know what most folks do & I only have watched a few folks I know reload. What most folks do means nothing really concerning most anything I can think of. The majority who voted went for Obama too! I am interested in the correct way, not the path of least resistance. Even the RCBS dies have instructions for partial sizing & major reloading manuals abound with this info as well. So if some full length resize every time they are ignorant of how to load for a belted mag. especially. Kinda goes along with those who sight in their guns at 50 yds. by hitting a pie plate & sying, GOOD ENOUGH! So for those that know how the load, the belted mag loads on the shoulder!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #22 on:** September 12, 2010, 02:29:21 AM »

well seaid nomoseendero. I guess i was refering to guys that actually had a clue about handloading not someone who just got there lee press and a loading manual and were cranking out there first box of ammo. As to chamber size not varying id have to wonder why there would ever be a need for small base dies if that were the case and why then would anyone ever neck size. If every chamber was the same the die companys could cut a die that would be exact for every gun and it wouldnt be nessisary. if you havent seen varitions in chambers in 06s and 08s id have to guess you just havent owned enough of either as i sure have. Ive got nothing personal against short mags. Granted i dont see any advantage to them but there certainly capable in the field. Only one that really interest me is the 25wssm but thats just because i love the .25 calibers and it would be something differnt to fool with. Certainly though i dont see an advantage to it over the 2506 and its surely not in the same league as the 257 weatherby. Even if brass life was an issue because im setting the shoulder back on a belted mag case. I can go buy new ones about anywhere. Good luck finding 300 short mag cases at your little mom and pop gunshop and 20 years from now theres a good chance you wont find them anywhere so stock up if you really like that gun.

Quote from: nomosendero on September 11, 2010, 09:20:12 AM

Savage, nothing at all wrong with the 270WSM. Like I said before, the 270 & 300 WSM will survive & are good rounds. I understand why you like your Kimber, they are quite nice. I looked at the 270WSM, but I have other rounds that outperform it by a little. And the 1/2" shorter action & along with that a few once saving in weight is a non factor for me when choosing a round of this performance level & longrange application.

You have found that "most handloaders, when FL sizing bring the die down to the shellholder." Well, I don't know what most folks do & I only have watched a few folks I know reload. What most folks do means nothing really concerning most anything I can think of. The majority who voted went for Obama too! I am interested in the correct way, not the path of least resistance. Even the RCBS dies have instructions for partial sizing & major reloading manuals abound with this info as well. So if some full length resize every time they are ignorant of how to load for a belted mag. especially. Kinda goes along with those who sight in their guns at 50 yds. by hitting a pie plate & sying, GOOD ENOUGH! So for those that know how the load, the belted mag loads on the shoulder!

charles p · « **Reply #23 on:** September 13, 2010, 06:24:05 AM »

I primarily hunt whitetails so I don't need magnums. I travel out West about every three years. I am old, fat, and bald, so the 300 WSM seems to fill my need for a lightweight deer/elk rifle in the Rockys. My Mod 70 is a pound or more lighter than my older 7mm Rem Mag. The horse I ride can tell the difference.

454Puma · « **Reply #24 on:** September 13, 2010, 07:00:10 PM »

Personally I've never jumped on the mag anything bandwagon! And the WSM-WSSM never even got my interest!

I guess I'm just old school as I have found nothing the good old '06 can't do ! It has thumped everything I've shot with all the authority required for a clean kill! Usually DRT- no tracking required!

Bullet selection and shot placement gentlemen, bullet and shot placement!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** September 14, 2010, 01:59:53 AM »

Id agree totally with you and even lump the 308 in there too if the max range you are ever going to shoot is 300 yards. When it gets out close to or past 400 yards the mags in my opinion offer a definate advantage though.

Quote from: 454Puma on September 13, 2010, 07:00:10 PM

Personally I've never jumped on the mag anything bandwagon! And the WSM-WSSM never even got my interest! I guess I'm just old school as I have found nothing the good old '06 can't do ! It has thumped everything I've shot with all the authority required for a clean kill! Usually DRT- no tracking required!

Bullet selection and shot placement gentlemen, bullet and shot placement!

mannyrock · « **Reply #26 on:** September 14, 2010, 09:52:43 AM »

The short magnum fad was probably the ONLY gun scam that I didn't fall for. :-)

Seriously, though, I think the .270 WSM and .300 WSM deserve some brownie points, and will be with us for a long time.

Mannyrock

454Puma · « **Reply #27 on:** September 14, 2010, 01:16:26 PM »

Lloyd Smale
And I 'd agree with you if I ever had to shoot past 400 yards! Haven't had to as I like to get close on big game! Like I said I'm old school, if you shoot them 400 + yards away that just alot more dragging/packing out to do!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #28 on:** September 14, 2010, 01:44:18 PM »

Quote from: 454Puma on September 14, 2010, 01:16:26 PM

Lloyd Smale
And I 'd agree with you if I ever had to shoot past 400 yards! Haven't had to as I like to get close on big game! Like I said I'm old school, if you shoot them 400 + yards away that just alot more dragging/packing out to do!

NO, no, no,
You climb on the top of the hill 400 Yards from the road, giving you a great field of view of the whole road and wait for the animals to cross the road and shoot them.
You walk back to the truck and then drive to the side of the road where the animal is.

Don't you know how to hunt?

Swampman · « **Reply #29 on:** September 14, 2010, 01:54:56 PM »

Quote from: 454Puma on September 13, 2010, 07:00:10 PM

Personally I've never jumped on the mag anything bandwagon! And the WSM-WSSM never even got my interest! I guess I'm just old school as I have found nothing the good old '06 can't do ! It has thumped everything I've shot with all the authority required for a clean kill! Usually DRT- no tracking required!

Bullet selection and shot placement gentlemen, bullet and shot placement!

That pretty well covers it.