Author Topic: Sabots In A Traditional Muzzle loader ? (Read 4830 times)

Ramrod · « **Reply #60 on:** December 05, 2003, 06:25:46 PM »

Hi guy's I'm new here, and this seems to be quite a thread.Mind if I jump in?

Quote from: Omega

Omega's magical number of "800" FPE

While I'd love to be as smart as the guy that did make that quote, I can't claim it or let you give me credit for it. Thanks anyway.

Elmer Keith came up with the 800 FPE as the minimum energy required by a projectile to ethically and humanely harvest game. Thought I'd explain in case you thought I was just pulling figures out of the air.
Rich

Omega, I hope your not talking about the same the same Elmer Kieth I read during most of my misspent youth, he also claimed he shot a running mule deer at 600 yards with a .44 magnum handgun, how ethical is that.

rollingb · « **Reply #61 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:00:03 PM »

Ramrod,.... I see you've read some'a Elmer's "claims" to!!...

"WELCOME",... to this board!!

Ramrod · « **Reply #62 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:27:07 PM »

thanx for the welcome, rollingb, I've read most of the so called experts, Colonel Charles Askins, Jack O'Conner, Kieth (Big Fat Liar), Ned Roberts and many others. What I've tried to do is see how their experiances agree or disagree with mine and draw my own conclusions, Not take anything as gospel just cause somebody wrote it.

Omega · « **Reply #63 on:** December 06, 2003, 02:42:31 AM »

I believe that the next Boone and Crocket Record will probably be taken with an in-line. The odds are two to one as in-lines can shoot twice as far. I will really dislike seeing that.

BC is for all time North America Big Game records and they accept everything from archery to pickups and MLs but are predominantly centerfire-killed records. I don't understand your being up set if a ML harvests the new world record? Are you thinking perchance of the Long Hunter ML Society Book of ML Records?

Ballistic coefficient and arc of flight - terms related to centerfire rifles and long range shooting aren't necessary for black powder muzzleloading.

Information is bad? Archer's worry about arrow weight, arc of flight, time of flight and more obsessively and they operate at 1/3 your 100 yard range on average. I have a predilection for zealously researching all my rifles no matter the range, I dont think I can know to much about my rifles and the loads Im shooting. I feel I owe it to the animals I hunt. Youll notice a lot of I in this CF old buddy, not judging anyone this is how I do it when Im in the woods.
Propensity is a great word! :lol:

rollingb · « **Reply #64 on:** December 06, 2003, 04:54:56 AM »

Ramrod,.... I ben do'n some think'n 'bout Elmers shot on the run'n mule deer with his .44 Max.,...... and I'm "GUESS'N" thet at 600 yards, the "FPE" would have been "no more" then 300, and the "bullet drop" far in excess of "20 FEET", and Elmer would have had to "lead" the run'n deer in excess of anuther "20 FEET". (and, I won't even mention the word "ethics" while discuss'n such a shot!)

I don't have the "ballistics" for the .44 Mag. at 600 yards, but maybe someone in Canada can give us a quick ballistic's qoute from his book!!!!

crow_feather · « **Reply #65 on:** December 06, 2003, 06:04:54 AM »

Omega,

Did you write that they accept pick ups, I had an 85 chevy that took one heck of a monster. Ah...........................................what if the antlers are in a few pieces?

Some in-lines do have one more problem that black powder doesn't have. Smokeless powder and maybe some other substitutes are temperature sensitive. They use heat in their equations to produce pressure. Drop the temperature of these powders and things begin to change. Some that have written in have had unfortunate results because of this.

Thanks by the way, Longhunter - I keep forgetting the name.

When you get my age, you hope that words are the only thing you forget.

C F

rollingb · « **Reply #66 on:** December 06, 2003, 07:09:52 AM »

Crow Feather,.... I agree with you!!.... The modified-centerfires and jacketed bullets, have "blurred" many "differences", between the Longhunter Society and Boone'n Crockett, record books!

Fellow "tradtional"-hunters,..... I can only imagine, the "feel'ns" of a fella, whose traditional-rifle, blackpowder, and roundball, "entry" into the Longhunters record-book,.... is lowered by an "entry" take'n with a modified-centerfire, smokeless-powder and jacketed-bullets!! Sumpthin 'bout thet,... jest doesn't seem "fair", to me!!

And,..... where did Omega get thet "weird notion" of his, thet traditional folks think "information" and "books" are "BAD",...... he keeps say'n thet "lie" over'n over like it is some kind'a "fact",..... when ALL we've EVER said, was,... folks shouldn't believe "EVERTHIN" they "read or hear"!!!!
HECK!!!!.... "he" don't believe nuthin "we" tell'im, but he sure seem's to enjoy "twist'n" our words around, to "suit" only him!! I for one, am start'n to git "very tired" of what,.... ("kind",.. of man, and muzzleloader), he represents!! He reminds me an awful lot of the "liberals", and the "tactics" they use!! :noway: :noway:

I realize Omega,.... thet yore gonna "flame the hell" out'a me (and Randy will probly furnish some "matchs'n gasoline" also, 'cause you seem to be his main "supporter") for my above statements,..... but,.. I don't consider "you two" to be the "majority", so ......... "FLAME-AWAY FELLAS", I'm git'n used to the heat!!

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #67 on:** December 06, 2003, 07:25:04 AM »

Quote from: crow-feather

Smokeless powder and maybe some other substitutes are temperature sensitive.

All powder is.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #68 on:** December 06, 2003, 07:30:21 AM »

Quote from: rollingb

Sumpthin 'bout thet,... jest doesn't seem "fair", to me!!

And,..... where did Omega get thet "weird notion" of his, thet traditional folks think "information" and "books" are "BAD",...... he keeps say'n thet "lie" over'n over like it is some kind'a "fact",..... when ALL we've EVER said, was,... folks shouldn't believe "EVERTHIN" they "read or hear"!!!!
HECK!!!!.... "he" don't believe nuthin "we" tell'im, but he sure seem's to enjoy "twist'n" our words around, to "suit" only him!! I for one, am start'n to git "very tired" of what,.... ("kind",.. of man, and muzzleloader), he represents!! He reminds me an awful lot of the "liberals", and the "tactics" they use!! :noway: :noway:

Whatever it was, my traditional spell-checker could not decode it.

"Maybe"!!!!!! it "WAS" (something to do). with (the)PUNCTUATION !!!!!!!!

??

rollingb · « **Reply #69 on:** December 06, 2003, 07:51:50 AM »

RandyWakeman,.... You may very well be correct 'bout the "PUNCTUATION"!!.. I've never claimed to be a proffesional, or even a good "writer"!!

I enjoyed the "pitcher" you posted, and I think you know "why"!!

KING · « **Reply #70 on:** December 06, 2003, 08:39:08 AM »

:shock: Awwwwwwwww.....man. Its ......like.......Saturday afternoon. I got all the flinters fixed for next weeks ml season(installed new flints,and hardened three frizzens),tuned a couple caplocks,and installed way to many sights(hooded fronts,and peep rear). Got two counter-sniper rifles re-scoped( not Leopolds either) and bore sighted. Made a fresh pot of coffee,and got a good cigar,and turned on this computer thingie. All I wanted to do was relax and what do I find........another argument. Actually,this one SEEMS to be relatively CIVIL. Lets keep it just a little more on the civil side.................understand gentleman. As for KEITH....that Muley was already shot,cause his great client kinda ran outta ammo attempting to put holes in it way past his shooting capabilities. Without getting out the books( again) I believe he hit it four out of 6 times and the range was closer to 400 yards. The only reason he took that shot (shots) was to not let a mortally wounded animal escape. Now...............I am not a fan of Keith,but I would agree on him at least attempting those type of shots,but only on a wounded animal. ONCE AGAIN GENTLEMAN...................KEEP IT CIVIL.........................stay safe.............King

rollingb · « **Reply #71 on:** December 06, 2003, 09:18:06 AM »

King,.... Thanks for yore "indulgence".
Have'n said "my piece" in the previous post, I'm will'n to drop the subject, and hope others will do the same!!

"Good luck"!!... with next week's deer hunt'n, and have "fun"!!

rollingb!

crow_feather · « **Reply #72 on:** December 06, 2003, 10:10:04 AM »

Randy,

Black powder, as you put out youself, is an explosion, burning at an extremely high rate. Smokeless powder burns slower, it raises the temperature in the case/bore which compresses the rest of the powder which heats the powder which makes it burn faster which increases pressure. Now I might not have it perfect, but that is the basic - I'm sure you will probably fancy it up.

two grains less smokless powder make alot of difference on where your bullet strikes. Ever try quickly reloading on a windy day when your wounded deer is getting further away? Ever spill any powder?

King, I want you to know that we are the best of friends, why Randy and Omega and Rollingb and I are gonna go shootin together someday. We're gonna shoot targets and make little tiny holes with a lot of shots. You see, that's what those "liners" do to show what great hunters they are.

C F

Omega · « **Reply #73 on:** December 06, 2003, 02:45:31 PM »

Quote from: rollingb

He reminds me an awful lot of the "liberals", and the "tactics" they use!!

So name calling again. I guess you missed Crow Feathers bit about how the posts were straying from the intent of the forum. If I misunderstood your post CF, then you have my apology.
How sad rollingb to have to hide behind name calling and the awful quotations, capitalization, parenthesis and the phony old time gunny writing. I guess it makes you feel special, like you were there or something. I do know it makes you look special, as in road the little bus to school special. I know, I know, youre not a professional writer, blah, blah, but youre not handicapped either are you? Most of us can post here in language that can be understood and you have too, Ive seen it, so drop the phony act. I mean if youll be phony about something as silly as posting it really brings the content of your messages in to question, do you see what I mean?
Lets see at this point I guess it would be my turn to call you a name but Ill pass, as that is a dead end road.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #74 on:** December 06, 2003, 03:29:56 PM »

Quote from: crow-feather

Randy,

Black powder, as you put out youself, is an explosion, burning at an extremely high rate. Smokeless powder burns slower, it raises the temperature in the case/bore which compresses the rest of the powder which heats the powder which makes it burn faster which increases pressure. Now I might not have it perfect, but that is the basic - I'm sure you will probably fancy it up.

two grains less smokless powder make alot of difference on where your bullet strikes. Ever try quickly reloading on a windy day when your wounded deer is getting further away? Ever spill any powder

Smokeless powder burns progressively faster, as used in small arms (confined state.) Laying on the concrete-- sure.

I've not "wounded" a deer, moose, boar, caribou, or elk-- so the answer would be a "no."

crow_feather · « **Reply #75 on:** December 06, 2003, 06:14:50 PM »

Randy,

You - in all your years of shooting - have never had to shoot twice at an animal? That is an enviable record.

I had to shoot twice at an elk once, but that was because a bear was a chewin on my knee.

Rollingb,
Forgive Ol Mega, He gets riled easy.

C F

rollingb · « **Reply #76 on:** December 06, 2003, 06:21:46 PM »

Omega,.... "If" I had wanted to call you a "liberal, I'd of done it,... 'cause one thing I'm not, is "bashful".
However, I didn't, so quit yore whine'n!!!!

If we're gonna take "turns" call'n each other names,.. you'll have to make the first move!!

Omega · « **Reply #77 on:** December 07, 2003, 02:39:22 AM »

" :-D "

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #78 on:** December 07, 2003, 03:04:39 AM »

"Can I shoot Hornaday XTP sabots or Powerbelts in a traditional muzzle loader?"
========================================

Fred

By all means yes! You will likely find that both bullets shoot tighter & longer groups than all those house-hold named conicals & roundballs of yester-year.

Don't get me wrong... I enjoy roundballin' but anytime I can top a 4" ball group at 75 yards with a 2-3" group at 100 yards using a 295 Powerbelt or a 40/50 240 grain Precision QT/XR.... it's a no-brainer with my Deerhunter 1-48".

I'm not stuck on "traditional". There's only a couple of states that refer to muzzleloading season as "traditional season." My oldest lookin' sidelock is a brassy 1-66" long gun Shenandoah. It hits the bull with a 245 Powerbelt better than any maxis or balls. Depending on where my deer blind is will decide whether I hunt that day with a roundball or with a sabot/bullet or Powerbelt with my two sidelocks.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #79 on:** December 07, 2003, 05:16:04 AM »

One of the more reasonable articles appertaining to the hoary trad / inline deal was written in 1999 by Sam Fadala, no stranger to round balls.

http://www.cva.com/articles/ff.htm

Whether an individual agrees completely or not is another issue, but most do agree that Mr. Fadala's brief look is even-handed.

rollingb · « **Reply #80 on:** December 07, 2003, 08:01:20 AM »

Randy,.... As with any proffesional writer (or ANYONE of his "ilk" :wink: ), change the "direction" of taxable income for Sam's articles and watch how fast, the "contents" of his articles change direction!! :eek:

Omega · « **Reply #81 on:** December 08, 2003, 03:53:32 AM »

Quote from: rollingb

Randy,.... As with any proffesional writer (or ANYONE of his "ilk" :wink: ), change the "direction" of taxable income for Sam's articles and watch how fast, the "contents" of his articles change direction!! :eek:

Did you actually read the article? I'm thinking not, as it parrots everything you have been saying. That inline technology, bullets and powder are swiftly over taking the disipline to the demise of traditional guns and seasons. I think he did a pretty good job comparing the rifles and issues. If you read carefully enough it even explains how you can stop what is happening to the bp shooters.
Rich

rollingb · « **Reply #82 on:** December 08, 2003, 04:24:25 AM »

Yeah!!.. Omega,.... I read the article!,.... and,... Yeah!!.. I know Sam!!

Omega · « **Reply #83 on:** December 08, 2003, 05:19:04 AM »

I know Sam

Do you really!?! I've never had the pleasure of meeting the man, just reading his articles. I find him to be well researched and current in his writing. Is he like that in person?
Rich

rollingb · « **Reply #84 on:** December 08, 2003, 05:45:29 AM »

Omega,....

1. Yep!!

2. To a large extent!

He's "only human", and as I mentioned before,.... "taxable income" can be an influence in regards to "material choice" for professional writers.

I will say no more on this subject, for personal reasons!!

Omega · « **Reply #85 on:** December 08, 2003, 08:15:06 AM »

Quote from: rollingb

. "taxable income" can be an influence in regards to "material choice"

So does taxable income influence you and your choice??

rollingb · « **Reply #86 on:** December 08, 2003, 09:05:16 AM »

Nope!!

Omega · « **Reply #87 on:** December 08, 2003, 09:08:57 AM »

Quote from: rollingb

Nope!!

Then how can you say that it does for someone else?

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #88 on:** December 08, 2003, 02:21:13 PM »

Don't worry about that dude from Canada! The way that country is going they will take his guns soon. Be careful they don't get ours!

Charlie

Omega · « **Reply #89 on:** December 08, 2003, 03:27:48 PM »

Quote from: Good time Charlie

Don't worry about that dude from Canada! The way that country is going they will take his guns soon. Be careful they don't get ours! Charlie

Hey Charlie, Believe it or not the biggest spin off from the latest gun control boon doogle is the ease of purchasing a gun. Now with my license I can walk out of a store in under 20 minutes with a new gun, no waiting periods or further checks. The goverment is flabergasted as gun sales are climbing.

Be careful they don't get ours!

Words of wisdom and you'd all do well to heed Charlie's warning. I had a Leupold Vari xIII crap on me and I had to send it for warranty in the US. I had to get a permit from the US goverment to have the repaired scope shipped back to me! :x And don't get me started on the ATF Form 6 to bring my rifle hunting with me! Sheesh! :eek: