Author Topic: Sabots In A Traditional Muzzle loader ? (Read 4798 times)

Omega · « **Reply #30 on:** December 04, 2003, 01:16:40 PM »

Quote from: rollingb

<"In the "early years" in Africa, many hunters killed Elephants

Do you know what is really interesting? The gun(s) of choice of Karamojo Bell called the greatest elephant hunter of all time and credited with over 2000 kills. Half he killed with a 256 and the rest with a 303 British. Both small fast calibers for the time, untypical of the giant Nitros more common for the task.
Rich

spitpatch · « **Reply #31 on:** December 04, 2003, 01:36:57 PM »

Very interesting opinions. I've been using .535"s all my life with good results, and I do keep my shots within 100. I am a person who finds change from the old ways very difficult. Round Balls are what my Father shot, my Grandfather shot, and very sure his Father shot, so I"ll probably keep shooting them as long as I live. I have no son but I'm gonna teach my son-in law to shoot them. ( He's getting a CVA St. Louis Hawken-.54 for Christmas....YEP!) already got it bought and hid, AND, will make dang sure we teach my grand son. The major benefit I see to rb's as Rollingb stated......we can make them ourselves. Thanks everyone for your thoughts, facts and figures.

rollingb · « **Reply #32 on:** December 04, 2003, 01:45:16 PM »

RandyWakeman,.... <"In Illinois, it means even more simply the only way to increase the weight of a lead roundball is to go larger,-and to do that-- you have to buy another gun.">

Excuse me Randy, but ..... jest "what" kind'a critters "you" got in Illinois,... thet "CAIN'T" be killed with a .54 cal roundball??

As for yore "tradition" comment,...... "Ther's rules for every game"!!

and they'er ALL different for:

Pre-1840's "doins"
Civil War Renactments
BPCR Competitions

A "traditional muzzleloader" shoot'n a "traditional roundball" is WELCOME in all of those "time-frames" in America's HISTORY!!!!

You otta feel lucky thet "greed" alows the inline to be considered a "MUZZLELOADER" by the DFG!!

Omega · « **Reply #33 on:** December 04, 2003, 01:48:30 PM »

Quote from: spitpatch

I have no son but I'm gonna teach my son-in law

Now that is what is truly important, to pass on the hunters code. Good on you!!

It has been my great joy to make hunters out of my daughter, two sons and a brother in law.
Rich

Quadzillabill · « **Reply #34 on:** December 04, 2003, 01:57:13 PM »

Hey, rb.

Just wanted to let you know - maybe it slipped past - that your quotation key is sticking.....

:wink:

Hey, you guys can shoot chewing gum out of your muzzleloaders for all I care - that's up to you. I'm for freedom of choice. :grin:

rollingb · « **Reply #35 on:** December 04, 2003, 03:56:17 PM »

Omega,.... I think I have finally figured out some of the "inliner's mind-set", and I want you to unnerstand this,.....

NEVER on this website or any other thet I have visited,.... has ANY traditional shooter EVER claimed thet the "roundball" was SUPERIOR to,... a conical bullet or a jacketed bullet.

However, we readily go on the defensive whenever the inline shooters say thet our equipment is NOT effective, and "the book" proves it,.... the traditional rifles and ther roundballs, were put'n venison "on the table" 300 years before "the book" was ever written!!

Omega · « **Reply #36 on:** December 04, 2003, 05:14:41 PM »

Quote from: rollingb

"the book" proves it,.... the traditional rifles and ther roundballs, were put'n venison "on the table" 300 years before "the book" was ever written!!

rolling, rolling, rolling so now you're telling us that schools are stupid and a waste of money. Why? Because they teach from books, and the stuff written about and explaned in the books has been going on since long before the book was written! Your logic is... well .... unique for lack of a better word.
Got news for ya buddy the book, written before or after the fact is right like it or not.
Rich :roll:

rollingb · « **Reply #37 on:** December 04, 2003, 06:26:52 PM »

Omega,.... "believe" what you want, it don't bother me none!!..... I'll jest keep put'n meat on the table with the roundball, like I ben do'n for years!!!! "THE END"!

crow_feather · « **Reply #38 on:** December 04, 2003, 06:56:56 PM »

Omega, Omega, Omega, when will you ever learn. Your talkin BC, ft lbs, time of flight, trajectory, and all of those other terms used by center fire riflemen. Oops! I forgot, that's basiclly what you shoot. You show pretty targets and say look at me I kin hit real close to the other shot at 100 yards.

Black Powder hunting is a 100 yard proposition. You don't need all that bruhaha. You throw a big chunk of lead that will hit somewhere within five inches of where you aim at 100 yards and meat is on the table.

Not only do you in-liners want to make muzzle loaders into pseudo centerfires, you have to bring in all that MOA, point blank range, arc of flight cr --stuff--ap.

Just go back to a centerfire, if you want to speak the lingo, at least use the right weapon.

C F

Good time Charlie · « **Reply #39 on:** December 05, 2003, 02:28:27 AM »

In my state it just not seen worth the money and trouble to get a front loader for the few extra days of deer season. How ever a lot of people do. That is there only reason for having a mussel loading gun. They are not interested in the gun the history or anything else. They are looking to cheat a few extra days on the season. I couldn't care less! I have my guns for my reasons they have theirs for theirs.

Charlie

Omega · « **Reply #40 on:** December 05, 2003, 03:48:16 AM »

Quote from: crow-feather

Omega, Omega, Omega, when will you ever learn. Your talkin BC, ft lbs, time of flight, trajectory, and all of those other terms used by center fire riflemen. Oops! I forgot, that's basiclly what you shoot. You show pretty targets and say look at me I kin hit real close to the other shot at 100 yards.

Black Powder hunting is a 100 yard proposition. You don't need all that bruhaha. You throw a big chunk of lead that will hit somewhere within five inches of where you aim at 100 yards and meat is on the table.

Not only do you in-liners want to make muzzle loaders into pseudo centerfires, you have to bring in all that MOA, point blank range, arc of flight cr --stuff--ap.

Just go back to a centerfire, if you want to speak the lingo, at least use the right weapon.

C F

Your talkin BC, ft lbs, time of flight, trajectory,

Gosh, dang here I went and forgot that traditional rifles and rbs are above the laws that govern all other rifles. :roll:

Black Powder hunting is a 100 yard proposition.

Well not according to some on this site. Even though some of you spout about how you're some kind of super hunter that kills their game by using super stealth hunting prowess to sneak into the games very shadow, there have been boasts of over 100 yard shots. And this while using a load with energy levels at that range that aren't ethical to many people.

that will hit somewhere within five inches of where you aim at 100 yards

Oh, now that is an ethical boast! :eek: I think a lot of your peers while supporting passion for your sport are wishing you hadn't said that. Here you go on one hand sneering down your nose at in-line hunters as unethical, cheaters who are stupid to be proud of their 100 yard accuracy and then you brag that if you hit within 5 inches of where you are aiming you're satisfied! That is about as unethical and frightening statement that I have ever heard out of a hunter. What a benchmark you are giving new shooters you are trying to garner to your sport. "hey if I can hit within 5" at 100 yards I'm ready to hunt." I'd take my kids guns away for such a disrespectful attitude. My respect for you as voice for your sport as been slipping with the name calling and the totally nonsensical posts you've been making, today you hit a new low, you make me ashamed to be lumped into the hunter cadre with you.

Goodbye Sir

rollingb · « **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2003, 05:09:15 AM »

Omega,.... While yore talk'n 'bout "ethics", why don't you tell everbuddy 'bout how you can shoot.... "sub 5" groups at 400 yards"

?

You stated several things on Nov. 16 th.,....<"Don't feel you have the right to judge for me what is an ethical shot.">.... <"My inlines exceed the ballistic performance of many centerfire and still produce over 800 ft lbs of energy at 400 yards.">..... <"I see no reason why I can't shoot out to 400 yards if I want to.">....

I have no doubt thet "every" traditional-rifle shooter on this board can shoot a "better group" at 100 yards,.... then YOU can at 400 yards with yore super "better then many centerfire" inline!!

Omega,.. yore "attitude" (and) "inline", has now bored me to the point of, answer'n ALL yore future posts directed at traditional-shooters, traditional muzzleload'n rifles, and roundballs, with the response of,.... "BULL$#!T",.. or,.. to ignore yore posts altogether!!!!

Omega · « **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2003, 05:32:02 AM »

Omega,.... While yore talk'n 'bout "ethics", why don't you tell everbuddy 'bout how you can shoot.... "sub 5" groups at 400 yards"?

Show me where I ever said such a thing. :roll:

You stated several things on Nov. 16 th.,....<"Don't feel you have the right to judge for me what is an ethical shot.">.... <"My inlines exceed the ballistic performance of many centerfire and still produce over 800 ft lbs of energy at 400 yards."

Yep and at 400 yards my projectile still has over 800 fpe. Were it below that like say 647 fpe I wouldn't consider that ethical. :eek:

>..... <"I see no reason why I can't shoot out to 400 yards if I want to.">....

Goodness, the eyes are the first to go aren't they? I said and you quoted me "if I wanted to" Didn't say i had or was going too. Big difference in my world. The gun maybe capable of that shot, never claimed I was.

with the response of,.... "BULL$#!T",.

My high school debate teacher said that when you were down to swearing and name calling the chamber was empty.

to ignore yore posts altogether

Thank you , now that I appreciate.

rollingb · « **Reply #43 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:30:15 AM »

Fellow shooters,..... Please don't let Omega's magical number of "800" FPE cause you much concern regard'n "kill'n power". I have a book in hand thet shows a "difference" of OVER .... 200 FPE at 100 yards,... with the same 30-30 cartridge shoot'n the same bullet.

This illustrates how much even "noted experts" like Mr. Barnes and Mr. Newton, can DISAGREE on formulas used to measure "FPE", or "kill'n power", with regards to America's most "popular" deer cartridge.

"Common sense" will kill more game, then "magic numbers",... any day of the week, 'specaly with "roundballs"!!

Omega · « **Reply #44 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:42:03 AM »

"difference" of OVER .... 200 FPE at 100 yards

So that 647 FPE of your rb could be 447 FPE?!? :eek: Is that what you're saying? What are you doing reading books? I thought they didn't apply. :roll:
Rich

Omega · « **Reply #45 on:** December 05, 2003, 07:56:04 AM »

Omega's magical number of "800" FPE

While I'd love to be as smart as the guy that did make that quote, I can't claim it or let you give me credit for it. Thanks anyway.

Elmer Keith came up with the 800 FPE as the minimum energy required by a projectile to ethically and humanely harvest game. Thought I'd explain in case you thought I was just pulling figures out of the air.
Rich

rollingb · « **Reply #46 on:** December 05, 2003, 08:14:36 AM »

Fellow shooters,.... Ther is a "rumor" circulate'n thet Elmer Keith thot ALL projectiles are "equal",.... whether they be, rocks, roundballs, arrows, or conical bullets!!

Please disregard such rumors!!

Thank You!!

Omega · « **Reply #47 on:** December 05, 2003, 08:27:57 AM »

Quote from: rollingb

Fellow shooters,.... Ther is a "rumor" circulate'n thet Elmer Keith thot ALL projectiles are "equal",.... whether they be, rocks, roundballs, arrows, or conical bullets!!

Please disregard such rumors!!

Thank You!!

Oh my gosh!!! ":-D" :-D " :-D" I'm wiping "tears" from my "eyes"!

"

You are "hilarious!!!"

rollingb · « **Reply #48 on:** December 05, 2003, 08:39:19 AM »

Fellow shooters,.... Please disregard the "water" on the floor,... sumbuddy jest "pee'd ther pants", 'cause they got caught spread'n rumors 'bout "Ol' Elmer the acher"!!

Omega · « **Reply #49 on:** December 05, 2003, 08:48:33 AM »

Quote from: rollingb

Fellow shooters,.... Please disregard the "water" on the floor,... sumbuddy jest "pee'd ther pants", 'cause they got caught spread'n rumors 'bout "Ol' Elmer the acher"!!

You at that age? I'm sorry to hear that.

rollingb · « **Reply #50 on:** December 05, 2003, 09:00:12 AM »

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!........ "traditional EARS"

?

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #51 on:** December 05, 2003, 12:09:08 PM »

Quote from: rollingb

to ignore yore posts altogether!!!!

It seems that any efforts to that effect could use a great deal of improvement.

Omega · « **Reply #52 on:** December 05, 2003, 12:18:04 PM »

Quote from: RandyWakeman

Quote from: rollingb
to ignore yore posts altogether!!!!

It seems that any efforts to that effect could use a great deal of improvement.

You noticed too? And I thanked him politely for the consideration too!

Rich

crow_feather · « **Reply #53 on:** December 05, 2003, 02:43:39 PM »

Omega,
This is what I wrote.

Quote

You throw a big chunk of lead that will hit somewhere within five inches of where you aim at 100 yards

This is what you said I wrote

Quote

and then you brag that if you hit within 5 inches of where you are aiming you're satisfied!

This is also what you attributed to me.

Quote

"hey if I can hit within 5" at 100 yards I'm ready to hunt.

Now I won't name call, I won't be nonsensical, (by the way, who told you that word) I'll just say that you are inaccurate. Some would call you a big fat liar - but not me, that would be calling names.

I guess you're catching up to me cause I never had any respect for you or that thing you call a rifle. (Although I think it's great that you hunt with your wife, I do with mine and it is usually the best of times for us.)

And I have not hit the low that your a standin in right now - cause I don't shoot a rifle made for cheaters. (to every one else with in-lines, I apologize for that - I'm just trying to talk mean to Omega)

And yes, I write nonsensical posts sometimes - so what! At least my wife doesn't have to write them for me.

TRADITIONAL FOREVER - (except for those that shoot an in-line in an ethical manner)

C F

crow_feather · « **Reply #54 on:** December 05, 2003, 02:58:36 PM »

Omega and Randy,

You guys are startin to attack the person, that isn't nice. If you need to get anger out of your system because you are looking foolish, go kick your dog. Oh Yes, I spoke out and told a few truths that weren't supposed to be brought up on this forum, and I'm sure that, like Omega has already done, it will be brought up every time you can't make an informed comment.

But you should get back to your thread. Now Omega, you were telling us about the 1/4 inch difference a different BC makes at 100 yards. And Randy, well you must have put something in this thread besides attacks on people's characters.

C F

Omega · « **Reply #55 on:** December 05, 2003, 03:36:44 PM »

O great feathered one! As usual there are some errors in your powers of observation.

nonsensical, (by the way, who told you that word)

Had to look it up didn't ya? You seem to like using your new word so no thanks are necessary.

cause I don't shoot a rifle made for cheaters.

I've never hunted in a ML season, so how would my inline rifle be cheating? :roll: You keep labeling me a cheat and a general no account yet IÂ’ve never hunted a season of privilege for muzzleloaders only. You got so carried away with judging me that you over looked a basic truth. Feel silly yet? Is that egg on your beak? Looks good on ya, not the slightest nonsensical one might say.

bubba · « **Reply #56 on:** December 05, 2003, 03:56:01 PM »

ok what are the qualifications to get into this pi**in contest??

crow_feather · « **Reply #57 on:** December 05, 2003, 04:24:40 PM »

Bubba,

Don't take much, pick a side and jump in.

Omega,
Rich, that O great feathered one was good. Really good!

When you shoot that monster Buck that will get your name No 1 in Pope and Young and you get about a zillion dollars in advertising and such, you are going to take it. Crazy if you don't - no offense intended. That is where the cheat ends. It begins when you call that fake muzzle loader a black powder rifle.

And I'm not calling you a cheat - alone - it includes a lot of other people. However none of those that read this thread is included.

And as far as the other stuff you had your wife write --- Humph!

egg on my beak - if I knew what the heck an "Omega" was, I'd chew him up!

C F

Omega · « **Reply #58 on:** December 05, 2003, 05:03:20 PM »

Ya know it is a good thing that crows don't migrate cause partner you're plumb lost!

No 1 in Pope and Young

Uhh, this is the Archery records and they sure as heck won't take a ML kill! :eek: I know, I know, now you'll claim this was "intentional" in an attempt at humor, uh, right, good one. :roll:

muzzle loader a black powder rifle

See, I go through life misunderstood, never have I called my inlines black powder rifles, never. I've never shot BP out of them and have no plans too. I don't hunt with my inlines in ML only seasons, so I'm not endangering your precious seasons. Hell I don't even live in the same country as you, yet you still feel the need to criticize my choice of gun and hunting style. You sir are starting look narrow minded and intolerant. Is the beak on too tight?

crow_feather · « **Reply #59 on:** December 05, 2003, 06:00:38 PM »

You know Rich,
Folks are right - especially when we start calling names more than discussing the topic. It's more of a name calling and catchy phrase thread - than it is discussing the topic.

I believe that the next Boone and Crocket Record will probably be taken with an in-line. The odds are two to one as in-lines can shoot twice as far. I will really dislike seeing that.

Ballistic coefficient and arc of flight - terms related to centerfire rifles and long range shooting aren't necessary for black powder muzzleloading.
As stated before, out to 100 yards, a black powder rifle will do what is necessary. Louis and Clark did well with a 54 for everything from antelope to elk. In the East, people were getting their winter meat with .40 caliber rifles and saw no need to go bigger. Not only are in-liners trying to move the muzzle loader into the realm of centerfires, but they want to bring all that comes with a centerfire, - groups, long range hunting, and the propensity (how's that for a word) to increase everything to the maximum. When you finally get to the end of your reach, you will eventually put yourselves out of our group

C F