Sabots In A Traditional Muzzle loader ?

[Fred McIntire]

Can I shoot Hornaday XTP sabots or Powerbelts in a traditional muzzle loader?

Thanks for any help and info!

[Wolfhound]

Depends on twist rate and bullet fit (sabots primarily). 1/20-1/48 you should get decent accuracy if the gun likes em. 1/60 (or similar round ball twists) you probably won't get decent accuracy with em.

[Snowshoe]

The T/C 3 piece sabot worked best in my 1 in 48" Lyman. It would shoot 2" groups at 100 yards. I tried a couple of other sabots with very poor results.

[RandyWakeman]

Can I shoot Hornaday XTP sabots or Powerbelts in a traditional muzzle loader?

Thanks for any help and info!

The older T/C Hawken (1:48) does well with the 260 grain Knight Powerbelt pushed by 70 grains of Triple 7 FFg. The XTP's are very difficult to load. Very.

[spitpatch]

Why would you want to use a sabot in a conventional? I shoot patched round balls...hornady .535... -Thompson .54- 1-48 and get 2 inch groups at 100 with a bigger chunk of lead. Please explain.....not up on sabots....never used them

[Mel Taylor]

I shoot inlines, my buddy shoots a sidelock. He tried some of my MMP sabots along with 250 gr. Hornady XTP bullets with both Pyrodex & 777 in his 1 in 48 twist, TC Hawken.

100 yd. accuracy was good and groups were excellent but neither one was  enough better to make him switch from the pure lead 50 caliber bullets (I believe they are 370 gr.) he has been using on deer for over twenty years.

Also, if you do a lot of shooting,  the sabots tend to leave a deposit of plastic in the barrel that has to be wire brushed out from time to time or that, in itself, can adversly affect accuracy.

[Fred McIntire]

Why would you want to use a sabot in a conventional? I shoot patched round balls...hornady .535... -Thompson .54- 1-48 and get 2 inch groups at 100 with a bigger chunk of lead. Please explain.....not up on sabots....never used them

Simply for increased accuracy and stopping power. I've been using the Buffalo bullet with a hollow point and hollow base with decent results. Just exploring my options.

I'm also shooting a T/C Hawken in .54 cal that I built from a kit about 22 years ago! Great gun but I'm almost 40 years old now and the guns seem to be getting heavier each year! I'm thinking of using my Dad's T/C Cherokee in .45 caliber this year. That Hawken is just too heavy to lug around all day anymore.

Now I know why my Dad always complained about those boots being too heavy to hunt in all day!

Thanks,
Fred

[rollingb]

Put'n a "plastic saboted bullet" down the barrel of a traditional rifle,.... would (IMHO) be 'bout like,...... put'n "jet fuel" in a classic car,... ("jet fuel", is jest a "fancy name" for, "high-grade kerosene"), and wouldn't "work fer spit"!!

[ghostZ]

For the last 2 or 3 years I have been using .45 cal sabots in my .50 TC Renegade.  I usually don't go for grouping or long shots so I can't comment on it.  Where I hunt I can't see 100yards for a shot.  I have taken 2 or 3 deer with the sabots.  

If I do change what I am shooting I usually take some shots @ ~40 yards to make sure it hasn't changed too much.

[spitpatch]

I doubt if I could possibly get more accurate than the combo I have now. Can literally eat the center out of a paper plate@ 100. Sloppiest group I can ever remember was 3"(shootin open sights mind ya), Do the sabots offer a greater knock down than PRB"s?

[Winter Hawk]

Do the sabots offer a greater knock down than PRB"s?

What I remember from when the sabots came out, the idea was to have a bullet which didn't have the same frontal area as the round ball so it didn't shed velocity as fast.  If the bullet maintains its velocity it will not drop as far over a given horizontal distance.  Rather than make said bullet bore size the idea was to enclose a smaller bullet in plastic (the actual sabot) to take up space and engage the rifling.  Sort of like the patch with a RB.  Never used one myself but the concept is interesting.

-Kees-

[spitpatch]

I would agree about the trajectory theory, but will it retain the energy of a prb upon impact..... taking into consideration the weight differences?

[Omega]

I would agree about the trajectory theory, but will it retain the energy of a prb upon impact..... taking into consideration the weight differences?

At the risk of getting flamed here I go....
The bullet in the sabot will 99% of the time have a higher Ballistic Coefficient than the round ball. There aren't many projectiles that have as bad a BC as a round ball.  BC represents the projectile's ability to overcome the resistance of the air in flight. A RB has a BC of approx .070 even a terrible bullet like the 300 grain .429 Speer has a BC of .213. Or is approximately 3 times more efficient in flight than the RB. Put the Speer in a 44/50 sabot and fire it out at 1800 fps (very slow for a sabot) and it still has 897 ft lbs of energy at 250 yards, 1197 fps velocity and has a total drop of 45.61" The RB at the same speed at 250 yards has 238 fpe, 767 fps and a total drop of 78.86". The RB crosses the 800 fpe barrier before 50 yards. 800 ft lbs energy has long been the benchmark for the lower end of energy needed to cleanly kill game. So yes the saboted bullet retains far more energy thatn the round ball.
Of course the real beauty is that sabot can be wound up substantially higher than 1800 fps and here in lives the superiority of the system.  
OK I'm ready for the flames! :wink:
(The RB BC came right out of the Lyman 46th Edition)
Rich

[rollingb]

Omega is absolutely CORRECT with his informative "post"!!!!!!


NOW!!!!!...... for "the rest of the STORY"!!!!

The "kill'n power" of a roundball is NOT "based" upon FPE (foot pounds of energy), in fact for all practical purposes FPE is "irrevelent" when discuss'n the roundball. The "kill'n power" of a round ball is based on,.... "diameter and increased weight as diameter increases"!! (picture yoreself git'n "hit" by a bowl'n-ball, at a velocity of, a "mere" 50 FPS,... for an "exagerated" example)

Omega is correct when he states thet a roundball has a very low "ballistic coefficent", and sheds velocity quickly!!

I consider 125 yards to be the "MAMIMUM range" of my favorite .58,... this pure lead roundball weighs approx the same as some of the .40-.45 cal. jacketed bullets (at approx 300 grs).

"Weight" however, is wher all "SIMULARITY" of the two different bullets ENDS!!

Consider thet,.... a large, pure lead roundball,....
Makes a VERY large "entrance wound" in comparison to the liddle "jacketed bullets.

A large, pure lead round ball, gits MUCH LARGER with a lot less velocity,.... then is REQUIRED BY a "jacketed bullet" for it's "expansion".

The pure lead roundball, has the "ablity to flex" without the constriction of a "copper jacket". What this means is,.... the pure lead roundball more closely resembles a "hard ball of flexable putty" thet slightly changes "shape" rather then "direction" as it tears thru a critter's body without lose'n much of it's original "weight"!!

The pure lead roundball doesn't do it's "kill'n" by high-velocity, so "blood-shot meat is practicaly "non-existant".

In the "early years" in Africa, many hunters killed Elephants with the "simple" roundball,... of course they were use'n "very large" simple roundballs,.... and, "thet" is how you increase the "power" of a roundball,...... you go "LARGER",..... not "FASTER"!!

The simple "pure lead roundball" has served me faithfully for over 30 years on a great "variation" of game from bunnys to moose,.... and all it's ever asked of me,... "was to place it in the PROPER-PLACE, at the PROPER-DISTANCE"!!

[RandyWakeman]

The "kill'n power" of a roundball is NOT "based" upon FPE (foot pounds of energy), in fact for all practical purposes FPE is "irrevelent" when discuss'n the roundball.

It is all derived from dissipation of kinetic energy inside a game animal. As described by Nosler "Death is caused by the loss of oxygen to the brain, which is supplied by blood. Energy is a measure of a bullet's potential to create trauma which will induce bleeding which will result in death, however, this energy must be transferred to the animal's vitals in the form of tissue disruption.

Most have forgotten that it was Col. Forsyth’s comments from the 1860’s that explained why BIG round balls were superior to slugs. He was right, but he advocated 8 gauge (83 caliber) rifles throwing 2 oz (870 grain) balls. Fact is that such a rifle is almost flat to 100 yards, 2 inches of apogee if sighted at 100, and dropping to about 20 inches at 200 with far better than 1000 ft lbs of energy left. Its TKO factor is of course enormous because of its outside diameter. He shot sambar (Asian deer) and tiger with it, advocating shots to the head at ranges of less than 100 yards, and used it on elephant as well . . .   from the journals of Doc White

[Omega]

The "kill'n power" of a round ball is based on,.... "diameter and increased weight as diameter increases"!!

The same with any projectile. As you increase diameter even with bullets weight goes up. The advantage a bullet has is that a .495 round ball weighs 182 grains and that can't be changed without changing calibers and guns.  A bullet that will work in the same gun as the 182 grain round ball can weigh anywhere from 180 grains to over 500 grains. So with out having to change guns we have "increased weight" and "kill'n power" of that gun. Can't do that with the rB.

I consider 125 yards to be the "MAMIMUM range" of my favorite .58,... this pure lead roundball weighs approx the same as some of the .40-.45 cal. jacketed bullets (at approx 300 grs).


Lyman lists a .562 rb as weighing 267 grains, perhaps you shoot a larger rb, but for the sake of discussion I'll use it here. At a MV of 1800 fps it retains 853 fpe at 75 yards. By 125 it is at 593 fpe and has suffered 13.8 inches of drop.

a large, pure lead roundball,....
Makes a VERY large "entrance wound" in comparison to the liddle "jacketed bullets.

Nothing magical here, all projectiles, bullets or rB make caliber sized entrance holes when hitting game. That .495 rb can't "swell up" during flight to make a larger entrance wound than a bullet. How silly!
 :eek: Rich

[rollingb]

RandyWakeman,.... It appears as tho, Mr. Nosler, Mr. Forsyth, and "I",.... are in TOTAL agreement.

No matter how much "developement" is performed on modern jacketed bullets,..... a big simple lead roundball "remains to be" a devastate'n force of awesome power when used within it's effective range.

Game animals, and the lead roundball,... haven't changed in several centurys!! The game animals I have kilt with roundballs, wouldn't have ben ANY "deader" had they ben hit with a "modern jacketed bullet"!!

The remain'n "beauty" of the roundball is,... anybuddy can "cast" these roundballs themselves, and even "tailor" them for "different applications" as long as they are used within ther effective range.

I have always maintained in my "posts" whenever a discussion of the roundball arises,.... thet the, humble, simple, roundball kills animals "IN EXCESS" of what "modern formulas and ballistic figures" would imply!!

[rollingb]

Omega,.... YES!!.. I use a .575 roundball and "thinner patch" in my .58 for hunt'n. I use a .562 roundball and "denum patch" for competion shoot'n. I don't have the Lyman book you do, but on my scales my .575 roundballs weigh 288 +/- 2 grs. (1.2% less than 300 grs., so for all "practical purposes" and give'n of the "nature" of the roundball, approx 300 grs.)

Ther's nuthin "silly" 'bout a large roundball make'n a "larger" entrance hole in an animal, then a smaller dia. conical bullet!!

You  can read "books" and qoute "modern ballistics" all day long, but all you'll be do'n, is babble'n "figures" thet DO NOT pretain to the "nature" of the lead roundball,.... if you don't believe me ask Mr. Forysth!!  

[Omega]

288 grains.. let's see.. that does make a big difference! Assuming a 1800 mv the .575 drops to 805 fpe at 90 yards and is at 637 fpe at 125 yards with a total drop of 13.8 inches once again.
Hmmm. this reminds me that the #1 Grizzly shot in Alberta (26 5/16") was shot by an indian lady with a 22. Yup she killed him plain dead with those mighty 17 grain projectiles out of a 22 short. Does that make the 22 a grizzly gun? No, not for everyone I don't think. Just as RBs or conical or sabots aren't for everyone. We each have our own ethics that we live by, that is part of what makes us individuals. My ethics would never allow me to take that 125 yard shot with your .58 cal. The numbers just don't add up for me, they do for you and that is fine, for you. You're fun to argue with in cyber space but you let your passion and romantic ideals get in the way of physics and reality. Good luck with your season.
Rich

[rollingb]

Omega,.... I KNOW "the numbers don't add up"!!!!

Thet's "WHAT" I ben try'n to tell you!!!!!..... "modern ballistics tables" DON"T "allow" for the "chacteristics" of the lead roundball!! (maybe you won't unnerstand what I'm say'n 'til you git a roundball-shooter of yore own,.... wher you live I'd reccomend the .58-.62 cal.)

BTW,.... My .58 shoots,... 1" high at 50 yards, "dead on" at 100 yards, and 4 inchs low at 125 yards,..... still good 'nuff for "adjusted point of aim" on a deer-sized critter, altho "ALL" of the critters I have listed somewher's on this "site," were take'n from 12 yards to 116 yards and with various-sized roundballs from various muzzleloaders over a 30+ year-span!!!!

I absolutey cannot put it any "plainer" then I already have in my posts, "IF" you fail to unnerstand "what" I'm try'n to relay to you,.... I'm truely sorry (guess I weren't ment to be a "teacher",.... 'course "I" already knew "thet" 'fore I ever started post'n)!! :toast:

[Omega]

Sorry man there are alot of things you could tell me that I'd believe blindly, but telling me that the laws of physics are suspended just for your round balls ain't one of them. That dog just don't hunt as they say.

My .58 shoots,... 1" high at 50 yards, "dead on" at 100 yards, and 4 inchs low at 125 yards,.

Very close to the numbers that my ballistic program gave me for the load, well close enough not to argue anyway. Strange the rb seems to be following the laws of physics so far..... Rich

[rollingb]

Omega,..... Kill'n critters is the "physics" I go by!! What else is ther to know? I ain't never seen a "number" kill a moose!!

[Omega]

Omega,..... Kill'n critters is the "physics" I go by!! What else is ther to know? I ain't never seen a "number" kill a moose!!

I'm disappointed rollingb, here I expected you to come roaring back full of fury, flame and rhetoric. Are you feeling well?  :grin: Anyway you have a good weekend. Rich

[rollingb]

P.S.,... One last thot for those thet are "CERTAIN" thet the "law of physics" cain't be broken,.. HEY!!!!.. Ther goes thet bumble-bee fly'n past my window agin!!....... now,.. what was it I started to say...........? OHHH!! YEAH!! NOW I REMEMBER!!!!.... Have a "GREAT HOLIDAY SEASON".... Omega!!  :toast:

[rollingb]

Omega,.... I done a liddle "number crunch'n" to see what the velocity of a 288 gr. roundball would "HAVE TO" be in order to push "637 FPE" at 124 yards 8 1/2 inchs.

The result is,.... exactly,....  "3 1/3 football-fields per-second"!! (any further figger'n now, will have to be done by you,.... 'cause I gotta headache!!!!

You can double check my "figgers" if you want, but it does come out to 1000 FPS!! (My chrony "reads" my .58 a liddle faster'n what yore book is tell'n you tho,.... but I still used yore numbers for the "figger'n")!!

[Omega]

That's the spirit! Actually 998 FPS is what my program produces for the 125 yard velocity on that load. But as you pointed out:

 The pure lead roundball doesn't do it's "kill'n" by high-velocity,

and then you also pointed out:

The "kill'n power" of a roundball is NOT "based" upon FPE

So to sum this up so far: a round ball doesn't need speed or energy to kill. Now we get to my all time favorite which tells us how a round ball does kill.

The "kill'n power" of a round ball is based on,.... "diameter and increased weight as diameter increases

Now if you too got whiplash trying to follow that statement you're not alone. I'm not sure if it means that round balls kill by increasing in size as they fly or you have to have several guns of different calibers and if gun A don't kill it "increase" the round ball size by moving up to Gun B.

All very entertaining so far! Say how come if the round ball is such a killing machine it is classified as "primitive"?

And a very Happy Holidays to you Rollingb!
Rich

[rollingb]

Omega,.... As silly as it may sound,... I "stand by" those qoutes as be'n true!! However you left out the one thet DOES explain everthin BETTER!!

<"In the "early years" in Africa, many hunters killed Elephants with the "simple" roundball,... of course they were use'n "very large" simple roundballs,.... and "thet" is how you increase the "power" of a roundball,.... you go "LARGER",.... not "FASTER"!!">......  

Now if you've read thet part and still don't unnerstand "HOW" you increase the "POWER" of a roundball,.... I'll give it "one more shot"!!

The "ONLY" way to "INCREASE" the "POWER" of a "ROUNDBALL" is to increase it's "SIZE",.... 'cause in a roundball-rifle, it is near impossible to git velocity "HIGHER THAN",.. 2000 FPS use'n "BLACKPOWDER" in a "traditional muzzleloader"!!!!

Ther "how's thet"??  

and "WHO",....is call'n the roundball "primitive"??... "Not me" thet's for certain!!!.... However,.... I would call the roundball,.... "TRADITIONAL"!!!!!

[rollingb]

Omega,.... P.S.,.... "The "LARGER" the game animal,... the "LARGER" the roundball "USED"!!

[RandyWakeman]

The "ONLY" way to "INCREASE" the "POWER" of a "ROUNDBALL" is to increase it's "SIZE",.... 'cause in a roundball-rifle, it is near impossible to git velocity "HIGHER THAN",.. 2000 FPS use'n "BLACKPOWDER" in a "traditional muzzleloader"!!!!

Ther "how's thet

In Illinois, it means even more simply the only way to increase the weight of a lead roundball is to go larger, and to do that-- you have to buy another gun.

Shooting a .50 caliber saboted pure lead SSB or Dead Center, you can shoot a 200 grain ballistically superior missile if you choose to-- or bark it up to a 435 grain SSB if you choose to, better matching bullet to game in the very same gun. I suspect it works the same way in Canada as well.

As for one's personal notion of "tradition" - - some might rightly feel it was prior to July 10, 1890.

[Omega]

Omega,.... P.S.,.... "The "LARGER" the game animal,... the "LARGER" the roundball "USED"!!

Must be awkward packing all those guns on a multi-specie day!!
  Rich