Author Topic: 357 Max. Handload ? Must READ Finally got response from Accurate Arms! (Read 2491 times)

JSLHandgunner · « **on:** July 20, 2010, 08:30:49 AM »

I have a H&R .357mag reamed to a Max. I have been loading the following loads- Rem. brass, Win. small rifle primers, 30gr. of AA1680 with no crimp. Producing 2250fps 3ft away from muzzle. I have been reading alot of articles about the max. Most of the articles and data from Accurate Arms list no such load of 30 grains. AA data lists 26.5gr. of 1680 compressed Load at 41,000cup. Will my rifle be ok using this 30gr. load? I'm kinda wanting to shoot deer out to 150-200yards. I've read the Indiana Max article about the T/c rifle using this load. Thanks, John

I wouldn't ADVISE anyone else to try this load for your 357 Max!!!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:50:47 AM »

Depends on bullet weight which you didn't mention, it shouldn't be a problem with 180gr bullets if you're loading to a longer COL and it's an SB2 frame, but I wouldn't recommend pushing it on an SB1(cast iron) framed Maxi.

Tim

JSLHandgunner · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2010, 10:18:02 AM »

Sorry, I'm using a Hornady 180 ssp. I believe the col is 2.335" but not sure, I'm at work right now. It is a new style 357 sb1 frame, but the barrel is stamped sb2. I purchased the rifle new from Buds this spring.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2010, 11:03:51 AM »

Frame strength is the limiting factor, barrel markings are irrelevant. I'd contact Yohan at AA and give him your load details to get his opinion on the pressure, I got 76008psi when I ran it thru QuickLoad, but it doesn't do well with straight walled cases, SAAMI max is 40kpsi. You can't compare the SB1 H&R to the TC Contender which is a stronger platform, it's factory available in many centerfire chamberings including 375 Winchester with a SAAMI MAP of 60kpsi, and the TC Encore is a stronger platform than the SB2 frame, available in several magnum rifle chamberings.

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/ContactUs.htm

Airsporter · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2010, 11:55:23 AM »

This is from the Stephen Cutter article you mention, but I don't know the exact AOL for his load:

"To be certain, I emailed Accurate Arms and received a prompt email from Ballistician, Johan Loubser. Johan told me that they stop loading at a given density limit. Since 1680 is really verging on being too slow burning for the .357 Maximum I could safely compress more and the chances of over pressure is virtually impossible. Johan estimated the pressure of my 28.0 grain load to be 43,000-45,000 psi and well within the caliber’s envelope and the T/C gun I am using." (my underline)

http://357maximum.com/developing-a-load/

I've seen others who mention using up to 30 grains. Will be interested to see what he says.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2010, 12:49:32 PM »

That's in an Encore, not an SB1 H&R, even that load is likely too much for the SB1 to be used safely IMHO, it may work fine for a while, but cast iron isnt flexible and doesn't give any warnings, it's brittle compared to heat treated steel, if it does fail, it will most likely be catastrophically.

Tim

clearwater · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2010, 01:36:23 PM »

Be good to know what they suggest. I have a SB1 357 Maxi and have had good consistency with
180 XTP and 26.5 grains of 1680. This is listed as a max load in my load manual. Gives velocity
in the 1900+ fps range.

petemi · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2010, 01:50:21 AM »

The safe and simple solution is to put it on a SB2 frame as are both of mine.

Pete

Airsporter · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2010, 12:08:58 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on July 20, 2010, 12:49:32 PM

That's in an Encore, not an SB1 H&R, even that load is likely too much for the SB1 to be used safely IMHO, it may work fine for a while, but cast iron isnt flexible and doesn't give any warnings, it's brittle compared to heat treated steel, if it does fail, it will most likely be catastrophically.

Tim

I agree. 30.0 grains is definitely not an SB1 load. I think they should be kept at 42,000 or less (max 30-30 pressure for older guns). The 28.0 grain load is probably hot at an estimated 43,000-45,000psi. So, the 30.0 grain load has to be too much. I think the 26.5 grain load would be maximum for the SB1 frame at 41,000. And, while it's probably ok in the SB2, I don't know that I want to go beyond 28.0 grains until I hear from the AA guys.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2010, 02:54:02 PM »

The deer at 200yd aint gonna know the diference in 26gr. or 30gr. of that powder, so do yourself, and the gun a favor and stay below the max data.
After all, if something fails the deer aint gonna take you to the doc or make a 911 call.

JSLHandgunner · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2010, 04:36:57 AM »

I finally got my response from Accurate Arms- A-1680 is actually too slow burning for the 357Magnum, so its impossible to cause any overpressure with that combination even at compressed levels.
Regards

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2010, 05:03:59 AM »

Quote from: JSLHandgunner on July 23, 2010, 04:36:57 AM

I finally got my response from Accurate Arms- A-1680 is actually too slow burning for the 357Magnum, so its impossible to cause any overpressure with that combination even at compressed levels.
Regards

The question isn't concerning the 357Mag, it's 357 Max, and in a rifle, not a pistol in case that distinction wasn't made.

Tim

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2010, 06:09:06 AM »

Quote

The safe and simple solution is to put it on a SB2 frame

The safe and simple solution is to stop trying to proof-test a rifle just because you can.

Spanky · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2010, 07:04:00 AM »

If you want to shoot deer at 200 yds. use something else.

Spanky

petemi · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2010, 07:49:55 AM »

Spanky, you've got it kid, Like maybe the .45-70??

Pete

schoolmaster · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2010, 04:58:33 PM »

I personally keep my 1680 handloads with the 180 gr. Hornady SSP at 25 grains shoots around 1 inch in all 4 of my maxis. I like to err on the safe side as two of my rifles are SB-1s and two are SB-2s so all loads are the same and no chance of mixing them up. I see no pressure signs with this load. I would be afraid to shoot 30 grains of 1680/180 Hornady SSP in the SB-1 rifles.

JSLHandgunner · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2010, 05:38:04 AM »

Let me make things clear. I DID state what I was using this load in- A H&R Rifle (SB1 Frame)! I found out in my rifle the hotter the load the more accurate and the average fps spread was much less, usually 30-40fps spread. As far as a different rifle, I live in Indiana. So the only other thing I could use would be a savage 20g slug gun. I'm going to the range tomorrow with 50 rounds loaded. Shooting 200yards. I will keep you posted. Thanks for all the opinions.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2010, 08:12:40 AM »

John, I have data from 3 different manuals using 1680. Do you want it? If so, I can post it here.

Joe

cowboyup453 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2010, 09:17:06 AM »

Quote

I'm going to the range tomorrow with 50 rounds loaded. Shooting 200yards. I will keep you posted.

Hopefully not with the 30g loads. We might not here back from you. $:-\$
Good luck.

mechanic · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2010, 03:57:37 PM »

I was just reading over this post, and wanted to be sure the poster realized what Tim was saying...the SB1 that the 357 barrel came on is fine for 357 specs. Pushing 357 max. could cause failure. The SB1 is the weaker frame, the SB2 is the stronger....just saying...be careful.

Ben

LONGTOM · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2010, 07:28:48 PM »

Quote from: mechanic on July 29, 2010, 03:57:37 PM

I was just reading over this post, and wanted to be sure the poster realized what Tim was saying...the SB1 that the 357 barrel came on is fine for 357 specs. Pushing 357 max. could cause failure. The SB1 is the weaker frame, the SB2 is the stronger....just saying...be careful.

Ben

He either doesn't understand that the SB1 frame is weaker than the SB2 frame or he is intent on blowing up his gun and maybe him self.
He seems to think that since it has a SB2 stamped barrel it will be fine as long as he is under max loads listed in the reloading books.

I do hope we hear from him again! $:-\$

LONGTOM

Spanky · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2010, 07:40:58 PM »

What's that old saying about leading a horse to water....?? Some guys just have to learn the hard way.

Spanky

randy_68 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 30, 2010, 04:59:30 AM »

Just so you guys know---
John is a long time shooter and understands what is being said. He had emailed Accurate Arms about this load and was told it would be safe so we both tried them. No problems what so ever and it was very accurate load. However, after all of this discussion we have decided to change things. He has a .223 SB2 that he will try and fit his barrel to and I am going to use lighter loads in my SB1. I have loaded and shot almost 20 different combinations for the maxi (mainly just for the experience) and we found that OUR guns prefer the heavier loads. And also that 150 yards is about max for effective accuracy with the maxi. They are just more accurate when loaded hot, but I will not push it past the limit with the SB1 anymore. I completely disassembled my gun and inspected it for any signs of stress and have found nothing.
So far, so good and YES John is still with us.
As they say "Live and learn."
Have a nice day.

JSLHandgunner · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2010, 10:27:33 AM »

Thank-you Randy! YES I do understand what everyone is saying. Is it Fact or opinions! I understand the difference between a sb1 and sb2 frame. I appreciate the concern but do not need to be bashed on. I'm not a retard. I e-mailed Accurate Arms and they have stated it will be alright. I have shot over 50 shots with this load and no problems and 50 other loads with no problems. My rifle as well as Randy's like the hotter loads. My accuracy went from 3" groups to 1" groups at 150 yards. I tried to fit the barrel on my SB2 frame but it isn't even close to shutting. I talked with my gunsmith and he told me I would be alright using the SB1 frame as well as Accurate Arms did. So, I really don't know what I'm going to do. I Know that I MAYBE taking a chance using the SB1 frame. But, If the rifle is not going to do what I want I will have to do something else. I appreciate everyone concerns though. Thanks, John

Swampman · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2010, 10:44:15 AM »

You said you e-mailed Accurate Arms and they have stated the powder would be alright in a .357 Magnum but of course the .357 Max holds a lot more powder. The frame will stretch and the gun wil stop firing because the firing pin won't reach the primer. That is all. I've seen it happen to T/C Contenders too.

trotterlg · « **Reply #25 on:** July 30, 2010, 03:11:02 PM »

Well.................... On a straight walled case, there is no area for the chamber pressure to push forward on, so the forward thrust is limited to the friction of the bullet in the barrel and the recoil pushing the breach back and dragging the barrel with it. The breach face may have a problem with the higher recoil in a small area like the .357 has as opposed to a 12 gauge, but the only cartridges that can put a load on the hinge pin in relation to the chamber pressure are the bottle neck cases. Larry

Swampman · « **Reply #26 on:** July 30, 2010, 03:21:52 PM »

I disagree

coues2506 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 31, 2010, 05:23:47 AM »

Quote from: cowboyup453 on July 24, 2010, 09:17:06 AM

Quote
I'm going to the range tomorrow with 50 rounds loaded. Shooting 200yards. I will keep you posted.
Hopefully not with the 30g loads. We might not here back from you. $:-\$
Good luck.

After all the good sound advice given and refusal to listen qualifies your for a "Darwin" award. Please send us your next of kin info before you go to the range.

JSLHandgunner · « **Reply #28 on:** August 01, 2010, 04:16:59 PM »

Alright, I decided to change my handload because of everyone's concern. I first off tried 28gr. of 1680 and a col of 2.290". Yes, I know it is still hotter than 26.5gr. but I looked in my notes and that did not shoot well in my rifle. This did well out to 125 yards and fell off at 150 yards. I also was getting black powder residue on my cases. So, I decided to go to 28.5gr.. My accuracy was almost one hole groups at 150 yards and I could sight dead on from 40 yards to 150 yards. The powder residue was gone also. This H&R rifle is shooting very well. Look out Deer this fall! Thanks, John

Please, no one should try this handload in his or her .357 max. Thank-you.

clearwater · « **Reply #29 on:** August 01, 2010, 07:40:54 PM »

Still left wondering if AArms advice was for the Mag or the Maxi.